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Topic: How to counter attack SPAM efforts by Ver's minions (Read 230 times)

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If we just do nothing than we must brace for the next spam wave when bitcoin becomes susceptible again (=when the number of people transacting increases). The fix suggested by Litecoin doesn't seem to be unfair for anybody. Rules are very clear and same for everybody.

I understand that, I just don't think that effectively pushing up the fees across the board to prevent such attacks is the answer. Let's hope that bitcoin doesn't have such a vulnerable period again that Ver can exploit, it seems now that exchanges have consolidated their transactions which has improved things as well as the move towards segwit.
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I think you provided proof of spam answering your own question.

If you think that then you didn't understand my question.

Even the transaction from your post might have been a transaction from some ARG or whatever, there might have been a real purpose to it. Although I doubt it.

As I was one of the recipients of 1 satoshi from that transaction and several more just like it I'm pretty sure it was spam.



Has anyone got any evidence that a spam attack actually happened?

I wasn't doing any analysis, so I can't throw any numbers at you, but what made me think about spam was a very unusual behavior seen on the blockchain.
There are some interesting charts available if somebody would like to analyse this.
On December 6 there was only ~50k transactions in the mempool, and it included no transactions with an over 200 satoshi fee. In less than 12 hours this number reached 220k unconfirmed transactions, so it got over 4 times higher within hours and included 30k transactions with a fee of over 200 sat/B. Then just 2 days later on December 10 it suddenly decreased by 130k transactions (over a half) and went back to 90k, with all those 200-300 sat/b transactions disappearing. Call it what you want, a spam or not a spam, a mixer activity or whatever, I have nothing to prove you wrong, but it looks suspicious at the very least.

I'm not saying it wasn't spam, just that I couldn't find any at the time, unlike last summer. What I did usually find when I went looking in the blocks was from exchanges rather than mixers. There were a few examples when Poloniex dumped 8 or 9Mb at 300 sats/byte above the current required fee to sweep all their inputs. This then forced everyone else to outbid them and that process repeated and pushed fees up very quickly.
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Has anyone got any evidence that a spam attack actually happened?

I wasn't doing any analysis, so I can't throw any numbers at you, but what made me think about spam was a very unusual behavior seen on the blockchain.
There are some interesting charts available if somebody would like to analyse this.
On December 6 there was only ~50k transactions in the mempool, and it included no transactions with an over 200 satoshi fee. In less than 12 hours this number reached 220k unconfirmed transactions, so it got over 4 times higher within hours and included 30k transactions with a fee of over 200 sat/B. Then just 2 days later on December 10 it suddenly decreased by 130k transactions (over a half) and went back to 90k, with all those 200-300 sat/b transactions disappearing. Call it what you want, a spam or not a spam, a mixer activity or whatever, I have nothing to prove you wrong, but it looks suspicious at the very least.

I am not convinced that those 200sat/B transactions were spam. They seemed to be transactions by people desperate enough to pay whatever was required to have their transaction confirmed in reasonable time.

What I saw (but I don't have the charts) and found suspicious were gaps in  https://btc.com/stats/unconfirmed-tx fee charts. For instance, there would be a large number of 400sat/B transactions, then nothing, and then some say 160sat/B transactions. I coudn't have explained them at that time, thought they were some transactions by institutions moving large quantities of bitcoins and not caring what they pay as a fee. But I didn't investigate further.

It's not really fix since most cryptocurrency already "charge" more fees when there are more input/output since the transaction size got bigger. While i think the idea isn't bad, it could be troublesome for exchange/services who's doing batch transaction (unless they charge the user for the batch transaction). If the spammer simply want to spam network, there are other ways such as 100 transaction with 1 input & 2 output rather than 1 transaction with 1 input and 100 input Roll Eyes

Also, we don't have to pay high fees for bitcoin transaction, usually $0.2 (or even less) are good enough these days.

The current situation is good, but it is only temporary, I am afraid. We should be looking for the permanent fix. The fix suggested by Litecoin would make it costly for a spammer in both scenarios: 100 transaction with 1 input & 2 outputs would be same as 1 transaction with 1 input and 200 outputs, since they would be charged per byte, but required minimal fee per output. The point is, the transaction not meeting the minimal fee requirements wouldn't be even accepted as valid.

With these transactions that are many small outputs in one huge transaction. Is there any real case where these would occur?

If there is then I think you have the answer right there as to why the change can't be made. The fees would be increased for people trying to use bitcoin in a fair and normal way.
Sure there is - for instance the exchanges may emmit bulk transactions to realise many of their users' payments all at once. But ask yourself this, what is better, that the minimal fee grows proportionally to the number of outputs, for exchanges and for spammers too, or that the network is unusable completely AND the fee per byte is at the level of hundreds time higher than the reasonable fee for regular users - you and me.

Then it doesn't seem like a great strategy. There have to be better ways to do things that doesn't unfairly increase costs for some people and uses. Short term it might be a viable solution but a better solution would be to have a network that can even handle these spam attacks. Fortunately for now it seems Ver and his loyal troll brigade have crawled back under their rock under the bridge.
If we just do nothing than we must brace for the next spam wave when bitcoin becomes susceptible again (=when the number of people transacting increases). The fix suggested by Litecoin doesn't seem to be unfair for anybody. Rules are very clear and same for everybody.

That's not a fix, but a pure form of usage exclusion, which is not what Bitcoin is about.

I can't emphasise this point enough. We all want to prevent spam but centralised control of what can and cannot be transacted is the antithesis of what Bitcoin is for.



Has anyone got any evidence that a spam attack actually happened?

Back in July last year I saw transactions like this one:

https://btc.com/70aea3503f5a636ff244a86f6be70a3520ec344d0a4e1c8bad60983778e8b191

1 input and 749 outputs of 1 sat each. That's clearly spam as the recipient can't spend the dust. Has anyone seen anything like this from last November to December?


I think you provided proof of spam answering your own question. In a scenario from OP (with minimal fee per output requirement), that transaction wouldn't be possibe because it wouldn't be meeting any reasonable minimal fee per output requirements. Even considering fee rate per byte it was very cheap, indead much cheaper than 1sat/B.

Anyway, it is clearly impossible to tell spam from real use case, as the discriminator would be the intent which is clearly subjective and cannot be measured objectively. Even the transaction from your post might have been a transaction from some ARG or whatever, there might have been a real purpose to it. Although I doubt it.
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With these transactions that are many small outputs in one huge transaction. Is there any real case where these would occur?

If there is then I think you have the answer right there as to why the change can't be made. The fees would be increased for people trying to use bitcoin in a fair and normal way.
Sure there is - for instance the exchanges may emmit bulk transactions to realise many of their users' payments all at once. But ask yourself this, what is better, that the minimal fee grows proportionally to the number of outputs, for exchanges and for spammers too, or that the network is unusable completely AND the fee per byte is at the level of hundreds time higher than the reasonable fee for regular users - you and me.

Then it doesn't seem like a great strategy. There have to be better ways to do things that doesn't unfairly increase costs for some people and uses. Short term it might be a viable solution but a better solution would be to have a network that can even handle these spam attacks. Fortunately for now it seems Ver and his loyal troll brigade have crawled back under their rock under the bridge.
legendary
Activity: 2478
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Has anyone got any evidence that a spam attack actually happened?

I wasn't doing any analysis, so I can't throw any numbers at you, but what made me think about spam was a very unusual behavior seen on the blockchain.
There are some interesting charts available if somebody would like to analyse this.
On December 6 there was only ~50k transactions in the mempool, and it included no transactions with an over 200 satoshi fee. In less than 12 hours this number reached 220k unconfirmed transactions, so it got over 4 times higher within hours and included 30k transactions with a fee of over 200 sat/B. Then just 2 days later on December 10 it suddenly decreased by 130k transactions (over a half) and went back to 90k, with all those 200-300 sat/b transactions disappearing. Call it what you want, a spam or not a spam, a mixer activity or whatever, I have nothing to prove you wrong, but it looks suspicious at the very least.

hero member
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That's not a fix, but a pure form of usage exclusion, which is not what Bitcoin is about.

I can't emphasise this point enough. We all want to prevent spam but centralised control of what can and cannot be transacted is the antithesis of what Bitcoin is for.



Has anyone got any evidence that a spam attack actually happened?

Back in July last year I saw transactions like this one:

https://btc.com/70aea3503f5a636ff244a86f6be70a3520ec344d0a4e1c8bad60983778e8b191

1 input and 749 outputs of 1 sat each. That's clearly spam as the recipient can't spend the dust. Has anyone seen anything like this from last November to December?
legendary
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most of the spam is actually from MIXERS..
Any actual proof to back that up?

a real spam attack is where the many transactions are only 1-5 confirms before being respent again., which is obviously out of character for normal real world use by real people needing to move their real value.
That's only one aspect of a spam attack, while a full blown spam attack has several layers all contributing to longer term network cluttering. In most cases utter nonsense transactions that don't stand a single chance to get confirmed form the biggest obstacle. In that regard, our opinions about a 'real' spam attack are widely different.

a fix would be a tx fee priority formulae which makes it cheap for people that only move funds once or twice a day, but more costly if they are moving funds more often
That's not a fix, but a pure form of usage exclusion, which is not what Bitcoin is about.
legendary
Activity: 4410
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most of the spam is actually from MIXERS..
but the OP is a reddit reader so will sheep follow propaganda.

a real spam attack is where the many transactions are only 1-5 confirms before being respent again., which is obviously out of character for normal real world use by real people needing to move their real value.

a fix would be a tx fee priority formulae which makes it cheap for people that only move funds once or twice a day, but more costly if they are moving funds more often

EG
imagine if it was 1sat/byte if you have 144 confirms(a day since it last moved) and be something like 144sat/byte if it only has one confirm(only 10 minutes since it last moved)

this too can be done without a fork.
legendary
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Don't let others control your BTC -> self custody
But I think (and judging by various threads at that time – not only I thought that) that the situation was used by Ver’s people to spam Bitcoin network in an effort to block Bitcoin network and in effect boost Bitcoin Cash popularity. They would even call Bitcoin network Legacy Bitcoin, to add credibility to their claims that Bitcoin Cash is the real Bitcoin. Their effort to spam Bitcoin started in Nov or even earlier and it changed the already clogged Bitcoin network into a nightmare, with a climax in December.

Of course they were doing it, I'm quite sure of it. The attacks started in two waves, first was right around the time when the fork happened. Ver created all that fuss about BCC being the better coin, true to Satoshis vision and started an acceleration service, that not only allowed him to get back some of the cash spent on the spam, but also act like someone who wants to help the community and unstuck transactions that he'd helped to get stuck in the first place. Since the price of BCH remained low and the interest wan't that great they started the second wave of spam attacks and all that "new king" propaganda. We could see literally hundreds of posts where newbies were spamming that BTC is dead and BCH is the new king, and it worked. The price skyrocketed and people flooded Ver's altcoin with money.
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With these transactions that are many small outputs in one huge transaction. Is there any real case where these would occur?

If there is then I think you have the answer right there as to why the change can't be made. The fees would be increased for people trying to use bitcoin in a fair and normal way.
Sure there is - for instance the exchanges may emmit bulk transactions to realise many of their users' payments all at once. But ask yourself this, what is better, that the minimal fee grows proportionally to the number of outputs, for exchanges and for spammers too, or that the network is unusable completely AND the fee per byte is at the level of hundreds time higher than the reasonable fee for regular users - you and me.
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With these transactions that are many small outputs in one huge transaction. Is there any real case where these would occur?

If there is then I think you have the answer right there as to why the change can't be made. The fees would be increased for people trying to use bitcoin in a fair and normal way.
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Activity: 392
Merit: 39
WHAT HAPPENED
I think we all remember very well that the transaction fee was out of the roof in Dec'17 and the beginning of Jan'18. If you didn't pay the ridiculous fee, then your transaction confirmation time was days or weeks. This situation was taken advantage of by miners and exchange wallet providers who would charge high fees on people desperate to execute the transaction fast no matter the cost.
This is the screenshot from Dec 20th from one of the sites recommending the transaction fee level:
image link: http://imgur.com/a/uUq5k
It wasn't even the top fee price recommendation for that day, either. I watched it growing that day and simply at one point I took a screenshot. 644 satoshi per byte for a standard 300 byte transactions was 33 USD at the Bitcoin prices on Dec 20th.
And the number of unconfirmed transactions staid above 150k most of December and it would even be above 200k at times.
WHY IT HAPPENED?
Obviously, the end of 2017 was a time of very fast price growth for Bitcoin, and people obviously wanted to cash out their Bitcoin holdings. It was one of the reasons behind the increased traffic in transactions, no doubt.
But I think (and judging by various threads at that time – not only I thought that) that the situation was used by Ver’s people to spam Bitcoin network in an effort to block Bitcoin network and in effect boost Bitcoin Cash popularity. They would even call Bitcoin network Legacy Bitcoin, to add credibility to their claims that Bitcoin Cash is the real Bitcoin. Their effort to spam Bitcoin started in Nov or even earlier and it changed the already clogged Bitcoin network into a nightmare, with a climax in December.
PROBLEM STATEMENT
Currently the network is OK –  we have quiet times, there is a reasonable level of unconfirmed transactions between a thousand and say four or five thousands (see https://blockchain.info/pl/unconfirmed-transactions). They can all be confirmed within one or two blocks. And the recommended fee is currently the reasonable 1-5 satoshi per byte (see https://btc.com/stats/unconfirmed-tx)
The problem is that it will not be like that forever. Whenever the network load increases again, I am sure the situation will repeat itself. Ver’s minions will take advantage of the increased load again and spam the network with useless transactions.
Can we somehow avoid all that spam?
THE SOLUTION
So I was browsing the spam solutions and I found this article from 2015: https://cointelegraph.com/news/litecoin-shows-there-is-a-simple-fix-for-spam-attacks-on-bitcoin
It leads the reader to the Reddit post https://blockchain.info/pl/unconfirmed-transactions. They discuss in the Reddit comments that the problem is created by many small outputs in one huge transaction paying only one minimal fee. The simple fix would be to require the minimal fee paid for each output. They even claim in the comments, that no fork is required in order to go on with that change.
In effect, Litecoin network is much less susceptible to spam than Bitcoin network.
THE QUESTION
I wonder, why can’t Bitcoin devs implement such or similar spam protection and end the problem once and for all? Surely some minimal fee per each of the outputs is better than paying 30-50USD per transaction?


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