Topic: How to defend against asics or prove Metroid wrong (Read 1260 times)

Agreed ...

Though it would not be that difficult to create a miner based on my above description, to have a modular interfacing system where you could add RAM and other processors as additional, or full replacement hardware. It get's expensive, but doable. Though price really isn't an issue for those that have it. Take the high end server market for example. If the money is to be made, the mainframe/super computer industry pay through the nose with specialized hardware.

If a corporation wants to, and have the funding, anything is possible, no matter what software is created. There will ALWAYS be a market for GPU, but this will dwindle as time (and circuitry manufacturing - thanks to companies like bitmain) become ever cheaper.

#crysx

You are correct in thi aspect ...

ASIC chips do ONE thing and ONE thing well.

But ...

A series of them can do a number of things well (Baikal like Miners - X11 X13 X14 X15 Quark Qubit, Cryptonight, Skein, etc).
A series of ASIC chips and FPGA circuits built on a board similar to GPU can be as adaptive as it wants. Almost any Algo within the limitations of the hardware (like a GPU), but can also be reprogrammed with updated Algorithms also.

That is what I am saying.

#crysx

This is from Timec discord channel, post by one of the devs.
"Well. Currently I'm developing a new algo for TIMEC to get rid of the ASICS.
Meanwhile our web wallet is currently under development.
Once we release both, we'll advertise like hell"

There will be more ASIC resistant algo developed after Ethash failure
Ethereum might be survive in this crypto space since their use case isn't solely as currency (more about dApps platform)
for coins that solely used for currency, ASIC resistant is a MUST to prevent centralization and to invite community participation
I'm pretty sure there will be new anti-ASIC algorithm developed
Now Raven x16r and many more in the future

I believe that the first coin that able to build and implement truly anti-ASIC algo, no premine, no ico, no shenanigans, will win become and the new bitcoin

Or is it just my dream  

hundred new coins lunching up every month. every developer is looking for miners because we make coins to go up or burst (we are the masses behind -  forcing and busting balls of exchanges to list new coins only for devs to sale big chunks at the beginning days of trade). we did that with BTC, ethereum, monero LTC and others. in the same time on the long run every developer forgets about us - so f,,k them. we should create a found. all chip in, make a coin from miners for miners pay few developers for there job in btc and not in our coin. rule by consensus. and all the others f..n coins, we let collapse we could mine some other coins as long as we buy our coin in the end. no premine BS no difficulty jumps (same as btc every 2 weeks) our own mining pools with nicehash ban no pool jumping, super fast (like TIMEC project or DGB) asic resistant. that is all . someone starts this and i am in.

Gamers are also trying to grab GPUs all around the world.

One can wonder if NVIDIA and AMD are doing the same thing as BITMAIN and the others.
It would probably be tempting for them to set up big farms with the latest hardware. Their cost of doing so would be lower than for anyone else by a big margin. And they can still sell the stuff whenever they want.
It's strange that there is still a GPU shortage at this time. There is basically no ROI at all anymore if you take increasing difficulty into account and the used market is beginning to be flooded with mining hardware.
Who is buying new GPUs to the level that distributors can't even get anything?
One explanation could be that both NVIDIA and AMD are prioritizing the more profitable AI and super computer segment at the moment.

If they set up their own farms, it should be possible to detect them. I don't know if their financial reports are transparent enough. If so, maybe one could identify a large increase in power consumption somewhere.

I can't help but think, if Jihan wanted to crack x16r, he'll chain his fucking ASICs and do it. The only thing he needs is motivation and fuckface seems really motivated.

It is either we fork like monero everytime there is a sign of ASICs or we'll let it go.

Or maybe we should focus on GPU's real use cases. I know this kinda means accepting defeat against ASICs but maybe it isn't. I recently came across to this coin: https://rendertoken.com/

Some of you probably familiar with the idea/project already but it seems like a cool idea to me. At least GPU's will be doing what they were invented for in a sense.

Storj is also using HDD's but both Storj (HDD) and Render (GPU) are still tokens. Their tx's happen on the ETH chain and Eth is being secured by ASICs now. We don't want that to keep the chain decentralized.

We need a chain which benefits from GPU's intrinsic value while it secures itself by GPU's at the same time.

For example BURST is securing its chain via HDD's but it lacks the  benefit of HDD's intrinsic value, file storage. I know they plan to do a hard fork to make it available somehow but as far as know It won't be as efficient as storj.

And there is Sia, (was) securing the network via GPU's and sharing files from the HDD's. Got hacked by shitmain. Was a bad idea in the first place because they relied on HDD's for the real work but wanted to secure the network with the GPU's.

We need all in one pack. No tokens, no multiple hardware.

We need a coin which uses GPU's for securing the network and sell their rendering power at the same time. When we achieve that, if bitmain wants to crack this algo, they'll simply have to invent a better GPU than Nvidia/AMD.

Comments:

1) To pile on here, I believe that GPU's have some advantages:

a) To broaden the network argument, GPU's enable a coin hashing network to be more complex. To borrow something from statistical mechanics, coin hashing network complexity goes probably, roughly as the ln(N), where N is proportional to the number of mining entities. GPU mining networks probably have more distinct miners and they are more geographically dispersed. GPU mining has geographical reach.

b) I believe that GPU mining can be greener. The obsolescence lifetime of a ASIC miner is shorter than a GPU card. A 290X card with the lowest power Stilt bios can mine longer than an S1 or an S3. At some point a former high powered GPU can be a $50 ebay card.

c) I believe that algorithm swapping seriously challenges the economics of ASIC miner production.

2) What should happen more is that software dev's should be enlisting the help of FPGA engineers in FPGA proofing their algorithms.

It think a viable long term solution is to monetize distributed compute power and use is as a "proof of compute work".
This is already done, sort of, but not properly, by BOINC, Folding@Home and a handful upcoming AI projects.
It would be much better to use all mining power to perform real, useful, mathematical calculations, AI training or whatever instead of guessing numbers. Such computations can only be performed by a general computer or GPU and the power is actually used for something useful in the end. Exactly how to implement this to secure a blockchain, I don't know but I'm sure it can be worked out. The ever changing code doing the computations perhaps must be dynamically validated and hashed into the blockchain together with the output. The one who figures this out first will probably drive many Lambos...

[/quote]

I agree with this in many respects, but remember that a lot of distributed AI projects paying to use our CUDA cores are just developing learning algos for megacorp internet marketing. I'm an academic and most machine learning in academia (Stanford's protein folding aside) either deals with datasets orders of magnitude smaller that can be dealt with on local systems, or they get their own CUDA devices (i.e. an astronomy set up just buys some cards for its own use with grant money--this would be cheaper than going through the middlemen AI startups I see on here, which will take a cut).

So we have to remember that just because a project says "AI", it is not necessarily more noble or less "stupid" than POW--its end game is just more spam and pop-up ads for us about Furbees and lawnmowers. And higher margins for traditional corporations and the new crop of middlemen who take the work order and send it out to everyone's devices.

But you are right that improved energy efficiency is needed.

when i did folding @ home, i remember some people would drop certain WUs (work units) because they were under paid (low points) for the work involved and restart hoping to get an easier WU.

the problem is WUs are not equal in difficulty, and points awarded were not always fair compared to the energy used.

there would need to be some sort of way to make sure each WU is equal to all others, and that would mean a central authority would assign those values.

only way POW works is everyone is guaranteed the same work difficulty and what we have now is the best fit. so far.

yeah it would be nice to use that work expended for science/medical but no one has come up with a fair system so far that i know of.

The current POW is doomed in the long term. The main reason is that it's not energy efficient. All this power is wasted just guessing numbers with artificial difficulty. Crypto will never handle mass market adoption and high volumes of transactions without being orders of magnitude more energy efficient. All this is really stupid if you look at the big picture and something better is clearly needed. Asics are more efficient than GPUs for guessing numbers and all would be fine if not the ASIC manufacturers were hostile. BITMAIN & co covertly use the hardware themselves until the market is sucked dry and then sells to big farms mostly. A small amount of ASICS goes to enthusisasts and they always get late to the party and serve as a dump sink for obsolete hardware. Crypto is centralized and put under chineese control... Not much of an improvement

The next logical step in the market evolution is for NVIDIA, AMD, Intel and Samsung to get into this business. I wouldn't be surprised if we soon see NVIDIA and AMD GPUs with onboard ASICS to boost crypto mining. They will be able to build superior units compared to BITMAIN because they already have huge amounts of RAM, bandwidth and efficient software platforms. Think of how easy it would be for AMD and NVIDIA to integrate some Daggerhashimoto ASICs in current GPUs and use existing memory. All they have to do to secure a new generation of very profitable mass market hardware is to strike a deal with the Etherium project so the hardware is not rendered useless due to some defensive forking. They certainly want a bigger piece of this market and BITMAIN is the enemy.

However, current POW is stupid and must evolve.

It think a viable long term solution is to monetize distributed compute power and use is as a "proof of compute work".
This is already done, sort of, but not properly, by BOINC, Folding@Home and a handful upcoming AI projects.
It would be much better to use all mining power to perform real, useful, mathematical calculations, AI training or whatever instead of guessing numbers. Such computations can only be performed by a general computer or GPU and the power is actually used for something useful in the end. Exactly how to implement this to secure a blockchain, I don't know but I'm sure it can be worked out. The ever changing code doing the computations perhaps must be dynamically validated and hashed into the blockchain together with the output. The one who figures this out first will probably drive many Lambos...

What happens next to ethereum will have a lot of weight in the future of ASIC manufacturing.

The community seems to be all for hardforking to a new algo, on the other hand most eth-lead people have been silent(with exception of Vlad).

God dammit I have no immagination according to this April1-o-meter.

no  as fully new algos never done need fully new chips.  and from drawing board to pcb = months  not weeks

you could set difficulty  at  x for a gpu  and at 100x for fast gear

but  an asic can beat that  if I recall  you can  spilt the hash on an asic 

the sp20 from spondoolies could point to multiple pools and mine part of its hash at each one.

I know I’m just a noob, but here are some points to ponder:

No coin is ASIC proof.  An algo is just a set of instructions that a CPU executes, and those instructions can easily be put onto a chip.  Any coin that claims to be ASIC resistant just means they try to make it harder to build an ASIC.

What if the ASIC manufacturers built a box with interchangeable chips?  Any time an algo was updated, they sent you a new chipset and the box was up and running again.  What if they had an eraseable ASIC and you simply downloaded the new algo?

Just like CPU mining gave way to GPU mining, the ASIC will make GPU’s extinct in the mining world.  Where big money is involved, somebody will always come out with a faster and cheaper way to do it.

Changing algos every few months is not the answer, as you’re treating the symptom and not the disease.

I can think of two ways to slow the growth of ASIC mining:
1)  Create two different blockchains/networks for each coin.  One for CPU/GPU and one for ASICs, with two different difficulty levels, giving the ASIC miners no real advantage.

2)  Limit the hashrates on the networks.  Each coin would have to be different, but say the max hash for any single IP on Ethereum was 500 h/s, who would build an ASIC for that?  It would also more evenly distribute the workload.

What if a new coin came out where the algo actually checked the hardware in your system to verify you were using a GPU to mine and not an ASIC?  I wonder what kind of reception it would get.

Just some thoughts...

This is definitely true, but I see it as market economics. When there is a big demand for something, we can supply that. People's wives decide they like amethyst jewelry, those of use forward lookin get to a vein of amethyst quickly, and a day later 50 other guys read the newspaper and show up with their pickaxes. But then the supply outstrips demand, prices go down, some other headlines hit, etc.

As for the 51% attacks I agree they can still happen, but it would be much harder for a bad actor to organize 51% of thousands and thousands of independent small guys, many of whom are trying to help something they see as socially progressive, vs. a small set of asic megafarms selling shares to a bunch of investors screaming for quarterly profits. Just my 2 cents--issues with GPU mining for sure, but let not the perfect be the enemy of the good.

^^^

sounds good to me.

guess i worry about a bunch (as in most) of gpu miners suddenly jumping on the most profitable coin/algo, raising the difficulty to the stratosphere, then going on to the next next coin once the original is worthless because of the difficulty. leaving that coin useless because of the difficulty. seems i recall that happening before. and it happens now on a somewhat smaller scale with profit switching pools.

btw i am assuming the coins attacked are decent mainline coins at that point, not shitcoins which do deserve such a fate.

bcashlol had to do an emergency fork because of hashpower sloshing back and forth, i assume maybe such gpu coins may have to implement something similar?

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I guess this is april fools  above




The reasoning against this  is simple enough.

Trading in exchanges  is very important.  Having lots of coins to trade  drives trading. Think of a 4 coin exchange vs a 400 coin exchange.

Diverse availability from gpu mining allows a guy  in the middle of nowhere Earth mine and trade coins.

To squeeze out the chance at 1 billion little gpu miners  is moron stupid.  Asics will do it. Bitmain shows they are trying to do it.

POW wise, you are right to an extent, you could say the same to asics, even if the asic hashrate is high, a more powerful asic can be created 10x more hashrate and do the same, reason I said pow wise, nothing is fully protected and to me cpu, gpu or asic is the same thing, changing one to another concerning security will not change anything. Now concerning decentralization then cpu/gpu wins hands down cause anybody can buy a cpu or gpu, hardly anybody can buy an asic and when buys an asic you are already outdated cause the manufacturer is using to mine a new version, so asics is a no go to any decentralized network, sia devs is paying badly for their mistake.

A coin that is shitty enough to motivate that kind of attack with current hashrate distributions etc, might just deserve whatever it ends up getting 

And it doesn't have to be a bad thing, a few of the coins that are around today have survived similar attacks and come out stronger.

might be answered already but if most popular coin algos go to gpu, and say 6 gpu coins dominate with all gpus coins more or less evenly split gpu hashpower wise, whats to stop people suddenly taking the gpu mining power from say 4 coin algos, switching to 5th (very easy to switch algos on gpus) and 51%ing one of the others? take a lot of bad actors and coordination but the possibility is there. it could effectively kill the attacked coin.

at least with asics that are dedicated to a coin you cant use them to attack another coin on a different algo.

just playing devils advocate here. i am all for getting rid of asics, at least until there are many more manufacturers (like dozens) that play fair (ie not limiting supply, mining on them for months before release etc).   

can we win against the rich?
can we as a miner GPU remain allowed to actively mine?

your idea is good, please make a referral letter for your idea to crypto .. me as a miner GPU worried can not mine again because asic!

they are a very greedy rich people creating asic into small coin coins!

To some extent there are merits in both forms of mining. The main problem as I see it is the centralization of asics around Bitmain which I completely agree is abhorrent.

Decentralization spreads adoption, end of story. 10-100k peeps with a "hobby" will do a lot more to drive adoption than any reasonably honest marketing campaign can.

A couple of years back, there were a ton of opensource initiatives with ASICS that would have stopped Bitmain from getting into the position they're in now. There were even a couple of "commercial" ventures that got badly burnt doing business in China and ended up eating failcake on that account. The current initiatives I see at developing less evil asics seem either scammy as fuck or just as evil as Bitmain.

Forking coins regularly will just drive additional innovation on the Asic front but is in my opinion a more than reasonable stopgap measure. However to do something truly effective, some of those next gen ASICS need to be democratized one way or the other.

A few things to note:
1) Bitmain became wealthy because folks bought from them in large scale. Mcafee, genesis mining etc large corporate mining businesses that a centralised hubs for mining now.
2) i say let the btc value go back to zero so these large mining businesses shutdown as running costs get too high (electricity, labor costs etc)
3) devs keep modifying their coins to keep them decentralised (sia tried but failed; monero is trying to beat asics and eth is undecided). Only fork when asic video is launched by manufacturer.
4) just need to figure out how many forks will it take to discourage these asic manufacturers to stop making these new asics (capital losses in millions) to bankrupt them.
5) dont forget why bitcoin came into existence in the first place. It was to move away from corporate suits trying to fabricate regulations only to break it themselves and ending up causing the markets to crash by 6 trillion dollars. Bitmain is turning into another central bank controlled by Jihan and it seems we have created a centralised entity.How is crytpo better than the current banking system if its lost its initial vision and only a few key players hold a majority of the coins/hashing power.....

We all dont want something like decentralization, I dont own any asic miner as well but Bitmain is too big now, and they have too much money to not only destroy another asics manufacturers also our small GPU miners, to monopolize the market. So we hope now some actions like Monero team who may launch a radical means of combating ASIC-miners through the update of CryptoNight algorithm. But that's all about the efforts of development team, this's quite exciting times, I think Ethereum team also are watching on what happens to Monero. I believe that it would be best practice would be to fork like Sir Phil said.

And how many people can get an ASIC to become miners?

How many people can get gpus AND are willing to invest in them? AMD and nvidia inspires a hell of a lot more trust than Bitmain.

Can you say the next sentence with a straight face? BITMAIN IS A FIGHTER FOR DECENTRALIZATION.

Also for the main reason, immagine how much we can stick it to metroid 

Exactamundo.

good  I would love to  see how this plays out.

replying to subscribe to this thread due to interest.

The possibility for one company mining with their new asics in secret for months, dominating  block chain, before then selling them at obscene prices, reminds me of a kind of insider trading coupled with monopoly. This seems to exemplify some of the worst features of the traditional financial oligarchy.

Maybe GPU mining isn't perfect, megafarms and such. But seems more consistent with solutions to the problems crypto was supposed to solve.

https://github.com/ethereum/EIPs/issues/958

Please post your ideas on this topic at github

We are doing something and devs will look for surr

Why in a freaking hell they like this word of decentralization when it's not?!?! Are mined coins spread across the globe thru geo-nodes equally? No they're not. The fattest wallet gets it first and that is totally wrong, IT breaks the whole idea! What we could do is that we could create the coin spread thru geo-nodes ... what i mean with that ...the country like china could get out of the geo-node only 25 coins! If hashrate cap is reached in that region then there wouldn't be any point in increasing the hashrate in that region as the total payout cap is at reached. And if you add a mining rig circulation into it it, that would add some value IMO.

............... 

Factor in that the government is coming down hard on ico's, further compressing the ecosystem.

I could make a 4 board miner like the L3   with 4 sets of asics  and a good controller  (fpga)

It would be decent and be able to adapt , but  at a certain point  of complexity it would fail.

My skill set is looking at economic factors  that make coins work.

So you are saying when bitmain developed the x11 they couldnt have 51% the dash network....they crushed the network....i.e. asics.

What phil is saying is to be adaptive and change algos.  You have stated that there might be adaptive asics coming out, i am no tech guru but i dont believe thats how asic chips are designed...they do one thing and do that one thing very well

I don't like the idea of having my day to day transaction based on Bitmain.

I don't believe that developers at Etash and even Monero are doing something strong enough to have a decentralize network.
The problem is a complex problem  and need complex and structured answer

There are huge holes leaving the door open to Asic:
for example, to name a few:

1) Mining solo: nobody does that in the normal mining. But allowing to do that open the door to Asic.

2) the developer of the coin MUST have direct relationship with the pool. Where is written that anybody can open a pool ? And distribute coins? If a developer want he can decide to send money ONLY to pools that are registered and that follow the rules indicate. It doesn't make sense that Monero, among others, realize that 1/3 or more of their hashrate is coming from nowhere.

It's like Tesla saying that anybody can sell their car. They are not doing that. The channel ownership  is what define a business.

3) Do we want really 10000 pool spread across the globe in which 2M people mine ? Then algos must be choosen in order to do so.

4) do we want the lower energy for transaction ? well, Algos must be chooosen for that, difficulty increase / block reward need to be stable .

I like and mine Ubiq. They decide what they want and just trying to have the network follow them.
I like the idea of RVN( well, pigeon idea is better). And I will wait to see what they would like to do with "an asic resistant" blockchain

Dear Phil,


if you propagate the idea,
that mining has to come back to the roots,
the way that users mine on their node the coins that they use,
then I totally agree with you !


If it is about mining as a business, the ones with lowest energy costs will stand longest (not here).


  PanneKopp

P.S. miners do not deliver adoption

Well ...

I did mention that an Algo change would be easy, like you have just mentioned.

I also stated that an Adaptive ASIC/FPGA would be very difficult to get around. Key word here - Adaptive.

These hybrid systems are on the drawing boards, and I assure you will make life very difficult in this arena due to their upgradable flexibility in Algo change. If they are perfected, there will be almost no Algo they couldn't hash, unless they are built with limitations on RAM and capacity of processing. Otherwise, these Hybrids WILL be able to duplicate the vast majority of Algos.

It wasn't long ago that people said 'ASIC proof' then 'ASIC resistant'. Don't think this is science fiction when I mention that these Adaptable Hybrid Miners (I call them AHM - I am creative that way ) are being developed right now. The moment the PHI algo is updated, a software update for the AHM will be available also shortly after.

I am off to bed now for a long drive for Family, so I will not be able to answer any more posts for the time being until I get back, but mark my words that this will happen sooner than you think.

Happy Easter All, and Nite Nite!

#crysx

We definitely need complete ASIC immune algos to keep Bitmain out.

Bitmain is making ASICs for the coins which are designed to be ASIC resistant. These coins owes most of their value for being decentralized/ASIC immune/Home mining friendliness but Bitmain has no respect to any of us.

Think about it, Ethereum&Monero clearly advertised their coins for being ASIC resistant. They advertised this as a feature. Now that feature is cracked by Bitmain. That means Bitmain is clearly attacking those coins and they will attack anything they are able to.

What we need is to fuck them right up where it hurts.

Vote with your hashpower, do not buy ASICs.

wrong but tricky to make this wrong

Phil16r

already has 
Phil18r
Phil20r
Phil22r
Phil24r

developed

and ready to fork  could do a fork every week

this means no asics can ever het a foothold

Wrong ...

That is where 51% attacks come from. Security is a hashrate phenomenon, whether you or I like it or not.

If the network is a GPU hashed PoW and has 25MH, while we come along with our 'theFARM' and thrash the network at 250MH, then the network has a massive issue.

MH or GH, the figures stand.

#crysx

Dont have the misconception that high hashpower = secure.  I for one would rather a lower hashrate but many more people on the network.  And hashrate is reletive to the machines available to mine. 

You cannot force anyone to do anything.

In fact, a great many developers are ASIC pro, not against, due to the high volume of hashrate that can be achieved to secure network through PoW.

My firm belief is that GPU mining will ALWAYS have a place, and that the largest component to this is the home user. However, for assurance that this will be the future, there needs to be stability in the GPU mining systems, and the current state of affairs in the GPU market is abhorrent. Almost NO decent GPU can be had, and the manufacturing giants are elevating the prices of GPU's much higher than they are actually worth. This is a side effect, and a negative one at that, of the market at play here. We know, we buy and supply the GPU's. Shortages are not the only problem, though price is a major one.

So ASIC's become much more attractive in that case, as they come close to the price of GPU's in the medium level ASIC market.

What does this mean on an overall level?

Simply that NO ONE can kill ASIC's, just like NO ONE can kill GPU's.

I believe there will be a balance of all mining hardware, and that this balance will be maintained WELL into the future of mining. The fact that the head of nVidia himself believes that mining will be a core aspect of the business proves that the GPU mining will be alive and well MUCH deeper into the future than what anyone can conceive.

As for the Algo change, that is not difficult at all. We know, we have designed a few ourselves which will appear shortly in our coins. Getting around an adaptive ASIC/FPGA miner is!

#crysx

If we don't get enough  developers  to sign on  for this idea  cpu and gpu mining does  die.

If that dies  we are fully dependent on Asic's  which means  centralized mining.

I don't  dislike  centralized mining.  My signature mentions  BTC as a highway  for trucks, bus's , cars, taxi's

I am certainly willing to have  'good' highways.

But with no one to travel on them they become worthless.

It maybe  that ETH  + BTC  + LTC  end up  as the centralized structure for cryptocoins fine that  works only if  the other coins  are

decentralized.

I support the idea of protecting coin algorithms from the use of asics. But how can we force developers to do that. For them, it does not matter who will be able to mining. But for decentralization mining and survivability of the coin is of great importance. How to explain this to the developers, I don't know.

https://github.com/ethereum/EIPs/issues/958#issuecomment-377700697

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L-1iG6mdJ8

See value  does come from how it is mined.  Think of gaming  I was a little too old to ever be a gamer.

 I predate pong and space invaders.
 I was a pinball player in the early 70's

But  if you game  a 1080ti system is affordable if you mine while you sleep.
Which means  world wide adoption  of gpu mining  at the grassroots level.

It must be preserved.  
I fuck around with Metroid  but he called the shot that asic's  were attacking gpu mining far earlier then I did.

It was a valuable thread he started .

The x16r thread has value.

and I want this thread to have value

I would love to see the x16r developer

say right now he will do

x20r in 4-6 months

with plans for

x24r in another 4-6 months after that

which  fully  will fuck  asics

and of course make  the raven coin worth dead solid money.



raven dev thread here

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--2752467

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--2752467

They have already considered on doing forks, XMR in a few weeks, ETH got a high votes for a fork to brick asics, X16r also can do forks





It does matter as  Cryptos considered and supposedly a "decentralized" coin, imagine a large hashing power only owns by the big whales as they are the only one who can afford to buy the large portion of machines.


And the mining profitability suffered which leads to small miners also give up

Yes  and what  most people do not realize is every home in the world  should have  a good pc with a good card.

[That is my fuck you to Apple iPad and iPhone and no good pc option. which is why I ended up with  cryptocoins in the first place]



I still propose this and gpu mining  becomes a slightly more complex rebate for your machine/pc.

This makes adoption   worldwide
below is a 1750 usd pc if it earns 4 dollars a day

1 year later it earned 1460

pretty good rebate  and many  can go this route  we need this it is important

https://store.hp.com/us/en/cv/omen-gaming?jumpid=ma_dt_featured_na_2_171115#desktops



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It seems the f3 can do 1500 mhs, that is 50 x rx 580.

Yes  but  greed  is also there for GPU builders and for intel and for mobo builders.

So if  they simply  push  for constant forks  asics go by by.

You are missing the point, he is not talking about value of a coin.  He is talking about keeping gpu mining alive, and yes miners secure the blockchain but not when asic mining is a mainly centralized venture.  Gpu miners allow for easy entry for people to mine crypto.

They are already talking about your idea.


https://github.com/ethereum/EIPs/issues/958

And for the record, I want to be wrong but in the end I'm never wrong. Greedy people make me right hehe

Hi @philipma1957 ,


miners do secure blockchains,
it does not matter what device is used.

The value of a coin does not come out of "how" it is mined.

Use case and adoption gives value.


PanneKopp

Let's support the idea guys or GPUs will really die and BITMAIN will dominate everything, centralization are coming

For RVN and X16r is easy to change the algo or improve, RVN born to fight against Asics

But for big coins it looks like devs are afraid to change anything

I want to make Metroid wrong
he has  a thread
   
GPU mining will die in 2018!

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/gpu-mining-will-die-in-2018-2786298

To all developers of the major money coins  here is my idea in a nut shell


Here is the deal  cpu/gpu developers can crush asics  with  a 4-6 month built in fork  system for their coin.

Other then LTC/scrypt and BTC/sha256 no algo has much hashpower

so an asic will crush that algo.

the defense  would be   4-6 month forks  and adding  a second or third algo

say
x16r  now
x20r   4-6 months later
x24r   4-6 months later
z28r   4-6 months later

I have contacted x16r dev on his thread

x16r now
x18r 4-6 months
x20r 4-6 months
x22r 4-6 months

maybe good enoguh












or
xmr1
xmr2
xmr3
xmr4

or
zec1
zec2
zec3
zec4

or
eth1
eth2
eth3
eth4


this  would defend  cpu/gpu coins  from the  attack  of asics