How to generate income for free... | Bitcointalksearch.org

keewee

legendary

Activity: 1025

Merit: 1000

Quote from: notme on October 28, 2012, 11:03:16 PM

Quote from: keewee on October 28, 2012, 09:34:50 PM

Quote from: odolvlobo on October 27, 2012, 09:03:18 PM

Quote from: Ichthyo on October 27, 2012, 04:49:28 PM

Quote from: Yuhfhrh on October 27, 2012, 04:28:01 PM

1. Sets up bid wall of 6k coins at $10.20.
2. Bigger fish sells 100k BTC and brings us down to $6, and we rebound to $8.
3. FAIL

no, no.
No fail at all here. The Ask wall is still there and all the smaller ask orders used for such a money making scheme are also still there. All the manipulator has to do is to wait for the market to come back to reap the revenue. And while doing so, the manipulator might even construct another "system" of paired orders in between to make even more money. All he needs is liquidity. And someone who can move walls of the size we saw the last days does have lots of liquidity.

Yuhfhrh is right. It only works if the market stays above the bid wall. Otherwise, you will lose money.

"All the manipulator has to do is to wait for the market to come back" -- You assume that it will come back, and you will lose money if you are wrong. Let's say you set up your walls when the value hit $15 3 months ago. You would be out a lot of money right now.

"All he needs is liquidity" -- you mean all he needs is an infinite amount of money.

I think we just saw an example of how the system could fail. Mr M just bought himself 8000 btc

I would consider owning 8k BTC a win no matter what the short term may bring.

Me too

Working on it...

helloworld

sr. member

Activity: 266

Merit: 250

Quote from: farlack on October 27, 2012, 05:58:39 PM

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on October 27, 2012, 05:07:27 PM

Lets pretend this plan has no flaws ... it isn't free you do realize that. It is $2M in opportunity costs (i.e. someone could invest $2M elsewhere). Add to that the risk of loss both from the trading system and from an exchange hack and the cost is most certainly >0%.

TL/DR:
Yes with $2M one can generate income using a variety of sources.

2 two
20 twenty
200 two hundred
2,000 two thousand
20,000 twenty thousand
200,000 two hundred thousand
2,000,000 two million

+2

notme

legendary

Activity: 1904

Merit: 1002

Quote from: keewee on October 28, 2012, 09:34:50 PM

Quote from: odolvlobo on October 27, 2012, 09:03:18 PM

Quote from: Ichthyo on October 27, 2012, 04:49:28 PM

Quote from: Yuhfhrh on October 27, 2012, 04:28:01 PM

1. Sets up bid wall of 6k coins at $10.20.
2. Bigger fish sells 100k BTC and brings us down to $6, and we rebound to $8.
3. FAIL

no, no.
No fail at all here. The Ask wall is still there and all the smaller ask orders used for such a money making scheme are also still there. All the manipulator has to do is to wait for the market to come back to reap the revenue. And while doing so, the manipulator might even construct another "system" of paired orders in between to make even more money. All he needs is liquidity. And someone who can move walls of the size we saw the last days does have lots of liquidity.

Yuhfhrh is right. It only works if the market stays above the bid wall. Otherwise, you will lose money.

"All the manipulator has to do is to wait for the market to come back" -- You assume that it will come back, and you will lose money if you are wrong. Let's say you set up your walls when the value hit $15 3 months ago. You would be out a lot of money right now.

"All he needs is liquidity" -- you mean all he needs is an infinite amount of money.

I think we just saw an example of how the system could fail. Mr M just bought himself 8000 btc

I would consider owning 8k BTC a win no matter what the short term may bring.

keewee

legendary

Activity: 1025

Merit: 1000

Quote from: odolvlobo on October 27, 2012, 09:03:18 PM

Quote from: Ichthyo on October 27, 2012, 04:49:28 PM

Quote from: Yuhfhrh on October 27, 2012, 04:28:01 PM

1. Sets up bid wall of 6k coins at $10.20.
2. Bigger fish sells 100k BTC and brings us down to $6, and we rebound to $8.
3. FAIL

no, no.
No fail at all here. The Ask wall is still there and all the smaller ask orders used for such a money making scheme are also still there. All the manipulator has to do is to wait for the market to come back to reap the revenue. And while doing so, the manipulator might even construct another "system" of paired orders in between to make even more money. All he needs is liquidity. And someone who can move walls of the size we saw the last days does have lots of liquidity.

Yuhfhrh is right. It only works if the market stays above the bid wall. Otherwise, you will lose money.

"All the manipulator has to do is to wait for the market to come back" -- You assume that it will come back, and you will lose money if you are wrong. Let's say you set up your walls when the value hit $15 3 months ago. You would be out a lot of money right now.

"All he needs is liquidity" -- you mean all he needs is an infinite amount of money.

I think we just saw an example of how the system could fail. Mr M just bought himself 8000 btc

Ichthyo

hero member

Activity: 602

Merit: 500

Quote from: odolvlobo on October 27, 2012, 09:03:18 PM

Yuhfhrh is right. It only works if the market stays above the bid wall. Otherwise, you will lose money.

This is correct, and there are big fish and even larger fish.

Quote from: odolvlobo on October 27, 2012, 09:03:18 PM

"All he needs is liquidity" -- you mean all he needs is an infinite amount of money.

Infinity is relative.
But we won't start nitpicking here. 100k or 200k. This isn't the point I want to make.

Someone with the capabilities we saw the last days has numerous ways of putting up new walls, and creating new money generating systems of sells and buys as the market moves. This holds true as long as the manipulator can apply forces sovereignly stronger then the other market contributors.

Actually, our little toy economy is so tiny that even an average player from the conventional finance system could easily reap money. Fortunately those guys don't care for peanuts -- for now.

As it stands currently, Bitcoin is way too much dependant on a single rate (and a single exchange for that)

Yuhfhrh

full member

Activity: 238

Merit: 100

Quote from: molecular on October 27, 2012, 10:11:02 PM

Quote from: Ichthyo on October 27, 2012, 04:49:28 PM

And btw, the last days we could observe serveral times that those walls were immediately pulled away once other folks really start buying or selling significantly into them. So even in your scenario (someone else selling 100k BTC) the manipulator has enough time to get out of the way

I don't think mtgox works that way. You can't pull orders (neither can bots) while that 100k sell is being executed, right?

Its not very clear but I remember a few months ago some people claiming it was possible.

molecular

donator

Activity: 2772

Merit: 1019

Quote from: Ichthyo on October 27, 2012, 04:49:28 PM

And btw, the last days we could observe serveral times that those walls were immediately pulled away once other folks really start buying or selling significantly into them. So even in your scenario (someone else selling 100k BTC) the manipulator has enough time to get out of the way

I don't think mtgox works that way. You can't pull orders (neither can bots) while that 100k sell is being executed, right?

Yuhfhrh

full member

Activity: 238

Merit: 100

Quote from: odolvlobo on October 27, 2012, 09:03:18 PM

Quote from: Ichthyo on October 27, 2012, 04:49:28 PM

Quote from: Yuhfhrh on October 27, 2012, 04:28:01 PM

1. Sets up bid wall of 6k coins at $10.20.
2. Bigger fish sells 100k BTC and brings us down to $6, and we rebound to $8.
3. FAIL

no, no.
No fail at all here. The Ask wall is still there and all the smaller ask orders used for such a money making scheme are also still there. All the manipulator has to do is to wait for the market to come back to reap the revenue. And while doing so, the manipulator might even construct another "system" of paired orders in between to make even more money. All he needs is liquidity. And someone who can move walls of the size we saw the last days does have lots of liquidity.

Yuhfhrh is right. It only works if the market stays above the bid wall. Otherwise, you will lose money.

"All the manipulator has to do is to wait for the market to come back" -- You assume that it will come back, and you will lose money if you are wrong. Let's say you set up your walls when the value hit $15 3 months ago. You would be out a lot of money right now.

"All he needs is liquidity" -- you mean all he needs is an infinite amount of money.

Thanks friend Cheesy

odolvlobo

legendary

Activity: 4522

Merit: 3426

Quote from: Ichthyo on October 27, 2012, 04:49:28 PM

Quote from: Yuhfhrh on October 27, 2012, 04:28:01 PM

1. Sets up bid wall of 6k coins at $10.20.
2. Bigger fish sells 100k BTC and brings us down to $6, and we rebound to $8.
3. FAIL

no, no.
No fail at all here. The Ask wall is still there and all the smaller ask orders used for such a money making scheme are also still there. All the manipulator has to do is to wait for the market to come back to reap the revenue. And while doing so, the manipulator might even construct another "system" of paired orders in between to make even more money. All he needs is liquidity. And someone who can move walls of the size we saw the last days does have lots of liquidity.

Yuhfhrh is right. It only works if the market stays above the bid wall. Otherwise, you will lose money.

"All the manipulator has to do is to wait for the market to come back" -- You assume that it will come back, and you will lose money if you are wrong. Let's say you set up your walls when the value hit $15 3 months ago. You would be out a lot of money right now.

"All he needs is liquidity" -- you mean all he needs is an infinite amount of money.

LoupGaroux

sr. member

Activity: 574

Merit: 250

Well, first off you would need to find an exchange that would extend you that kind of jack on the come. Maybe you have enough limit on your credit cards to swing it, so go for the glory. Then you have soft costs... dumping $200K into a highly speculative scheme that can be gamed by any one of hundreds of other players who can snuff your walls with a twitch of the mouse (yes, Virginia, there really ARE early adopters sitting on hundreds of thousands of bitcoins) will cost you interest, it will cost you the lost legitimate opportunities, and it will quickly cost you all of your capital when somebody with a pair one size bigger than yours decides to play the opposite game and eat you for lunch. Bang, game over, thanks for playing, pick up your consolation prize at the door on the way out, you lose.

farlack

legendary

Activity: 1310

Merit: 1000

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on October 27, 2012, 05:07:27 PM

Lets pretend this plan has no flaws ... it isn't free you do realize that. It is $2M in opportunity costs (i.e. someone could invest $2M elsewhere). Add to that the risk of loss both from the trading system and from an exchange hack and the cost is most certainly >0%.

TL/DR:
Yes with $2M one can generate income using a variety of sources.

2 two
20 twenty
200 two hundred
2,000 two thousand
20,000 twenty thousand
200,000 two hundred thousand
2,000,000 two million

DeathAndTaxes

donator

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1080

Gerald Davis

Lets pretend this plan has no flaws ... it isn't free you do realize that. It is $2M in opportunity costs (i.e. someone could invest $2M elsewhere). Add to that the risk of loss both from the trading system and from an exchange hack and the cost is most certainly >0%.

TL/DR:
Yes with $2M one can generate income using a variety of sources.

LoupGaroux

sr. member

Activity: 574

Merit: 250

If the scheme is so brilliant- do it, don't try to sell it.

Ichthyo

hero member

Activity: 602

Merit: 500

Quote from: Yuhfhrh on October 27, 2012, 04:28:01 PM

1. Sets up bid wall of 6k coins at $10.20.
2. Bigger fish sells 100k BTC and brings us down to $6, and we rebound to $8.
3. FAIL

no, no.
No fail at all here. The Ask wall is still there and all the smaller ask orders used for such a money making scheme are also still there. All the manipulator has to do is to wait for the market to come back to reap the revenue. And while doing so, the manipulator might even construct another "system" of paired orders in between to make even more money. All he needs is liquidity. And someone who can move walls of the size we saw the last days does have lots of liquidity.

And btw, the last days we could observe serveral times that those walls were immediately pulled away once other folks really start buying or selling significantly into them. So even in your scenario (someone else selling 100k BTC) the manipulator has enough time to get out of the way

Yuhfhrh

full member

Activity: 238

Merit: 100

1. Sets up bid wall of 6k coins at $10.20.
2. Bigger fish sells 100k BTC and brings us down to $6, and we rebound to $8.
3. FAIL

Ichthyo

hero member

Activity: 602

Merit: 500

Quote from: molecular on October 27, 2012, 09:29:04 AM

....So the achilles heel is actually the possibility of failure.

Well, IMHO the probability of a huge failure is rather low, since the manipulator can abandon the action any time. And even if it doesn't work to trigger a larger action (something as happened the last days), at least it's possible to encage the market movement between the walls, forcing it to bounce up and down, thereby generating a reliable revenue by "taking" all the staged orders between the walls.

In the current situation, probably it hadn't work so well if someone tried to push the market up, since everyone was rather expecting a correction. -- guess by now a lot of money has been "corrected" into the wall pusher's pockets Grin

molecular

donator

Activity: 2772

Merit: 1019

Quote from: nobbynobbynoob on October 27, 2012, 07:31:56 AM

Quote from: Ichthyo on October 27, 2012, 06:47:38 AM

All you need is about $200000 to start with

LMAO! This is the Achilles heel of many a wonderful business plan.

lol, getting $2 mio wouldn't be so hard if it was a sure thing, though. So the achilles heel is actually the possibility of failure.

cedivad

legendary

Activity: 1176

Merit: 1001

This is what happens every day on eurusd.

nobbynobbynoob

hero member

Activity: 784

Merit: 1000

Annuit cœptis humanae libertas

Quote from: Ichthyo on October 27, 2012, 06:47:38 AM

All you need is about $200000 to start with

LMAO! This is the Achilles heel of many a wonderful business plan.

Ichthyo

hero member

Activity: 602

Merit: 500

Well, almost for free Wink

All you need is about $200000 to start with

And here is the simple How-to:

Place a pair of Bid / Ask-Walls on Mt.Gox, each roughly 6000 conis size. Place a system of smaller bid and ask orders in between. The bid orders of course allways lower than the corresponding ask orders. When people have "taken" all your orders, then move your big barrier orders in a direction that the market sort-of expects. For example, move them down in some steps towards $10. Then repeat your game. When the small folks attack and take one of your barriers, just put up a new pair. Repeat until significant counter action appears beyond your barriers, which is the sign to reverse the direction of your action. At the end of the day, you've taken a nice amount of coinz out of the small guy's pockets...

Topic: How to generate income for free... (Read 2064 times)