How to restore non BTC coins or tokens from a broken ledger device?

Pmalek

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Quote from: HCP on June 27, 2021, 04:36:19 PM

That is to say... is that a Ledger specific derivation path, or is it a Tron "default" derivation path Wink

I am leaning more towards it being the default Tron derivation path.

Atomic Wallet has a list of derivation paths used by their software on their official website. It shows m/44'/195'/0' for Tron.
I added Tron to Coinomi on my phone to check what path it shows there and it's the same. It's giving me M/44H/195H/0H.
Trezor hasn't added the derivation path in their docs. The source is probably outdated.

HCP

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Quote from: Pmalek on June 27, 2021, 02:55:21 AM

To be 100% sure if the path is device specific or not, we would need someone else with a Nano S to install the Tron app and check what path he has.

Sorry... on reflection "device specific" was a bad choice of words... I should have said "wallet specific" or "vendor specific".

That is to say... is that a Ledger specific derivation path, or is it a Tron "default" derivation path Wink

Pmalek

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Quote from: HCP on June 26, 2021, 05:34:42 PM

Do you know if that is device specific? or is it the "default" derivation path for Tron? Huh

I am not sure really. I just tried to add a new Tron account just to see what derivation path that one will show and I got "44'/195'/1'/ which is normal. To be 100% sure if the path is device specific or not, we would need someone else with a Nano S to install the Tron app and check what path he has.

Quote from: HCP on June 26, 2021, 05:34:42 PM

I recall many years ago Ledger had some non-standard path for ETH which caused some issues when trying to use the device with MEW etc. They had a specific "Ledger" option when trying to open your wallet.

Ledger's derivation path for Ethereum is "44'/60'/0'/. I never had to recover or play around with my ETH account so I am not sure if this is standard or a custom one.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on June 26, 2021, 04:07:31 PM

I totally agree, the secure Electrum in ledger nano is enough to protect the Ledger Nano seed phrase while the strong passphrase used to extend the seed phrase in Trezor should be enough to protect the keys generated on the Trezor wallet even if the hardware wallet is stolen.

*Secure element, but no, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that because I use multiple different long and complex passphrases, each which provide enough entropy to be to secure against brute-force attacks even if my seed phrase is known, then I wouldn't be desperate to move all the coins from a lost Ledger device. I definitely still would, but I wouldn't be rushing home to do it immediately as I might be if I had a hot wallet stolen. The secure element provides significant protection, yes, but you cannot trust it 100%, you cannot say for sure there are no vulnerabilities, you cannot say for sure an attacker could not extract the keys from it, and I would wager that an adversary with a scanning electron microscope and the knowledge on how to use it could probably manage to get the seed phrase from the secure element. All that gives me plenty of time to move my coins, yes, but I would definitely be retiring that seed phrase permanently in the near future.

Significant protection comes from the fact that my passphrases are not stored on the hardware device, so they cannot be extracted through any vulnerability. The only option is for the attacker to try to brute force them, which is essentially impossible given their complexity.

HCP

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Quote from: Pmalek on June 26, 2021, 01:21:03 PM

In case miningsetup or someone else needs it, the default Tron derivation path for Ledger is "44'/195'/0'/.

Do you know if that is device specific? or is it the "default" derivation path for Tron? Huh

I recall many years ago Ledger had some non-standard path for ETH which caused some issues when trying to use the device with MEW etc. They had a specific "Ledger" option when trying to open your wallet.

Charles-Tim

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on June 26, 2021, 03:04:06 PM

Even if your device is stolen, and you assume there is some unknown vulnerability which would allow the attacker to extract the seed phrase as there is in Trezor devices, I wouldn't be in any desperate rush to move my coins knowing that my various passphrases alone each provide more than enough security to prevent any brute-force attacks.

I totally agree, the secure Electrum in ledger nano is enough to protect the Ledger Nano seed phrase while the strong passphrase used to extend the seed phrase in Trezor should be enough to protect the keys generated on the Trezor wallet even if the hardware wallet is stolen.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: ?? on ??

A bit off-topic, but are there any wallet which have sweep feature, although it doesn't have import feature?

I've not used any of these wallets, but it seems most of the major multi-coin altcoins wallets will only allow you to sweep coins and not import private keys. For example:

Coinomi: https://coinomi.freshdesk.com/support/solutions/articles/29000013432-what-is-the-difference-between-importing-a-private-key-and-sweeping-a-wallet-
Jaxx: https://support.decentral.ca/hc/en-us/articles/360021479354-How-do-I-transfer-digital-assets-from-a-paper-wallet-private-key-in-Jaxx-Liberty-
Exodus: https://support.exodus.com/article/87-can-i-import-a-private-key#

Quote from: Charles-Tim on June 26, 2021, 09:20:55 AM

But in case the wallet was just damaged and not stolen, the person can just wait for the hardware wallet to arrive and import the seed phrase directly.

Another great reason to use long and complex passphrases which are not stored on your hardware wallet (so not linked to a secondary PIN in the case of Ledger devices). Even if your device is stolen, and you assume there is some unknown vulnerability which would allow the attacker to extract the seed phrase as there is in Trezor devices, I wouldn't be in any desperate rush to move my coins knowing that my various passphrases alone each provide more than enough security to prevent any brute-force attacks.

Pmalek

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Quote from: dkbit98 on June 26, 2021, 06:44:12 AM

I don't need it myself but you can post tron derivation path in ledger to help people like @miningsetup in recovering coins on other wallets.

In case miningsetup or someone else needs it, the default Tron derivation path for Ledger is "44'/195'/0'/.

I did notice when opening the application a few status reports that mention that they are having some issues synching to a few blockchains. Polkadot is apparently not working and the Ethereum Ropsten network.

Quote from: dkbit98 on June 26, 2021, 06:44:12 AM

The only reason I tried to install it was to help people like him but ledger live crashed every time I tried to go to settings for tron app and find derivation path, and that is what I call junk app.

Could it be an outdated app? I assume you don't use LL that often since you don't like it. Try to download the latest version from their website, you can't update to it from the app anyway. It requires you to download and install it manually.

Charles-Tim

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Quote from: Quickseller on June 26, 2021, 07:44:51 AM

You could do that, but you may eventually get to a point in which you have two (or more) alts that you cannot sign transactions in an offline environment. You may also be in a situation in which all wallets are closed source.

The best solution that was finally concluded is to have two hardware wallets, so in case one is lost, the other is used to replace it, I too have seen this as a perfect solution. I think what ETFbitcoin was talking about is that in case the person do not have two hardware wallet, the Bitcoin can be sent finally to an airgapped Electrum wallet just for safety in which transaction fee will be charged, but that is no option for altcoins because most altcoin wallets are close source and also are online wallets which may leave no option than to import the seed phrase on the online wallet for time being, the person can immediately buy another hardware wallet and transfer the Bitcoin and altcoins to the newly bought hardware wallet that will also require transaction fee. But what I will like about the method is that the Bitcoin is totally controlled by offline keys, even when transferred to an airgapped wallet and back to newly bought hardware wallet. But in case the wallet was just damaged and not stolen, the person can just wait for the hardware wallet to arrive and import the seed phrase directly.

So, you meant the same thing.

Quote from: ?? on ??

I know, but AFAIK there's no wallet for TRON which is open-source or can be used offline.

Quickseller

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Quote from: Quickseller on June 25, 2021, 10:49:54 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

I know, but AFAIK there's no wallet for TRON which is open-source or can be used offline. I merely mention it as alternative to recover the coin, which is better than lost the coin.

This is important because using a non-air gapped machine will result in your seed being exposed to the internet and potentially being compromised. If your seed is compromised, you are at risk of all of your coins being stolen, even if you have not exposed the seed when dealing with that seed.

For example if you have bitcoin and Tron USDT on your Trezor, and your seed is exposed when interacting with a Tron USDT wallet, your bitcoin could also be stolen.

True, but could be avoided by following @Charles-Tim which redeem Bitcoin (and other cryptocurrency) on more secure (offline/airgapped) environment.

You could do that, but you may eventually get to a point in which you have two (or more) alts that you cannot sign transactions in an offline environment. You may also be in a situation in which all wallets are closed source.

dkbit98

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Quote from: Pmalek on June 26, 2021, 03:25:21 AM

If you still need the default derivation path for Tron, let me know?! I will be on my other computer where LL is installed later today and I can check it out for you.

I don't need it myself but you can post tron derivation path in ledger to help people like @miningsetup in recovering coins on other wallets.
The only reason I tried to install it was to help people like him but ledger live crashed every time I tried to go to settings for tron app and find derivation path, and that is what I call junk app.

Pmalek

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Quote from: dkbit98 on June 23, 2021, 04:49:06 AM

I just wanted to test this out and installed Tron app on ledger wallet to find out derivation path, but to my surprise ledger live crashed and I was unable to use it anymore until I did total app reset.

I have had the Tron app installed on my Ledger up until a few weeks ago when I had to uninstall it to make space for some other asset I bought. I have TRX and TRC-20 tether on my Nano S. The only thing I noticed about Tron is that it takes an awful long amount of time to sync it. But I haven't experienced any crashes. If you still need the default derivation path for Tron, let me know?! I will be on my other computer where LL is installed later today and I can check it out for you.

o_e_l_e_o

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Importing private keys of alt of your interest into relevant software wallet would do the same thing. To get those private key one can use^{iancoleman bip39 tool}run on offline computer.

That's not a bad idea at all, but again will depend on the altcoin in question having wallet software which supports importing individual private keys, which is not always the case. It will be the case for major alts such as Ethereum or Monero, but many of the smaller alts don't even have their own wallet at all, let alone one with "advanced" functions such as support for handling individual private keys. If there is such a wallet, you will likely still need to import your private keys to a wallet with an active internet connection which still risks any coins held by those private keys, it at least keeps your seed phrase offline and doesn't compromise all the other coins you are holding at the same time, too.

Quickseller

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on June 23, 2021, 06:12:57 AM

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Similar with Bitcoin, you need to find wallet which support TRON (with it's token) and recovery from seed phrase. Multi-wallet such as Coinomi, Trustwallet and Atomic wallet support many popular altcoin, although all of them are closed source.

Yes, this is correct, but OP is asking for ways he can go about it even without using online wallets, but this will be difficult to attain or maybe not even possible for now. This would have been better if such wallets are like Electrum that can be used as cold storage and another as watch-only.

I know, but AFAIK there's no wallet for TRON which is open-source or can be used offline. I merely mention it as alternative to recover the coin, which is better than lost the coin.

This is important because using a non-air gapped machine will result in your seed being exposed to the internet and potentially being compromised. If your seed is compromised, you are at risk of all of your coins being stolen, even if you have not exposed the seed when dealing with that seed.

For example if you have bitcoin and Tron USDT on your Trezor, and your seed is exposed when interacting with a Tron USDT wallet, your bitcoin could also be stolen.

o_e_l_e_o

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The only way to be relatively sure of the security of your coins is to import your seed phrase to another hardware wallet.

The majority of altcoin wallets are not open source, and so immediately cannot be trusted to be secure. Even some of the most popular altcoin wallets have been found to have critical vulnerabilities, such as Coinomi sending entered seed phrases to Google servers to be spellchecked. Further, the majority of altcoin wallets cannot function in an airgapped manner, meaning even if the wallet is secure you must still enter your seed phrase on to a device with an active internet connection, which is another major security risk.

If you are worried about your device being lost or damaged and you needing immediate access to your funds, then buy two devices now. If you could wait a few days, then only buy a second device if the need arises.

Charles-Tim

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Similar with Bitcoin, you need to find wallet which support TRON (with it's token) and recovery from seed phrase. Multi-wallet such as Coinomi, Trustwallet and Atomic wallet support many popular altcoin, although all of them are closed source.

Yes, this is correct, but OP is asking for ways he can go about it even without using online wallets, but this will be difficult to attain or maybe not even possible for now. This would have been better if such wallets are like Electrum that can be used as cold storage and another as watch-only.

Quote from: Lucius on June 23, 2021, 05:42:14 AM

@miningsetup, the only correct way to restore wallets from a hardware wallet is to enter a seed into a new hardware wallet in case such a device breaks down, or you lose it. This would mean that you should buy 2 such devices and always keep one in case you need it - so although it is not a cheap solution, if you want maximum security you should avoid all other options.

This will be the best, simplest and the easiest method, but OP is insisting on airgapped wallet like Electrum. Also it depends, what if the hardware wallet is Trezor, and it was stolen? No passphrase used while generating the keys and addresses. If miningsetup (OP) later browsed about the safety of his/her keys but saw a link to the physical attack which can be carried out on Trezor to know the seed phrase which can be used to generate all the keys and access the funds. So, it depends on the situation, there are cases someone will not have any other option than to transfer the funds to another wallet which will demand for transaction fee.

Lucius

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@miningsetup, the only correct way to restore wallets from a hardware wallet is to enter a seed into a new hardware wallet in case such a device breaks down, or you lose it. This would mean that you should buy 2 such devices and always keep one in case you need it - so although it is not a cheap solution, if you want maximum security you should avoid all other options.

What you will surely avoid with such an approach is to avoid fake crypto wallets, because just one small recklessness can cost you everything you have - is that risk worth the extra $50?

dkbit98

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I just wanted to test this out and installed Tron app on ledger wallet to find out derivation path, but to my surprise ledger live crashed and I was unable to use it anymore until I did total app reset.
Just shows yet again what piece of junk this software is and I am happy not using it at all, especially knowing that ledger device is closed source.
I also tried to find tron derivation path on ledger website and reddit, but no luck so far...

Quote from: miningsetup on June 23, 2021, 04:31:39 AM

Thank you all especially you. Any recommendations for open source wallet that can be used in an offline device? Let's say I want to use usdt in trc20.

I think that most wallets supporting it are now closed source like Exodus, Trust Wallet or Atomic wallet, but check full list of wallets here: https://tron.network/wallet?lng=en
Just note that Tron is totally centralized coin and I would not trust it for holding anything long term on their chain.

miningsetup

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Similar with Bitcoin, you need to find wallet which support TRON (with it's token) and recovery from seed phrase. Multi-wallet such as Coinomi, Trustwallet and Atomic wallet support many popular altcoin, although all of them are closed source.

Thank you all especially you. Any recommendations for open source wallet that can be used in an offline device? Let's say I want to use usdt in trc20.

dkbit98

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You can still restore all your coins from your Ledger device using other wallets or with buying new device if you lost your old one and importing seed phrase.
Important thing for restoring coin to other wallet is to first have correct seed words, and to know what derivation path coins are using and you can find that in settings of your ledger live.
I would not keep bunch of altcoins on hardware wallet in the first place and I would not restore my backup phrase to any hot wallets unless incase of emergency.

Charles-Tim

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Quote from: miningsetup on June 23, 2021, 02:50:51 AM

For example if I have usdt in Tron network. How would I restore the Tron wallet securely using the 24 hour seed phrases?

In case you have many altcoins controlled by the private key on the hardware wallet, I will not advice you to import the seed phrase into Electrum wallet because you will need to import the seed phrase on a wallet that will let you be able to have access to your coins, and for altcoins, these wallets can be online wallets.

This is my advice. After you first import the seed phrase into Electrum wallet, then send all the bitcoin on the electrum wallet to your airgapped Electrum wallet(which is of course another wallet) in which transaction fee will be charged, then your bitcoin is safe. For altcoins, you may not have option than to import the seed phrase on the online wallet.

You will still want to buy another hardware wallet, generate another seed phrase and transfer all your coins individual with transaction fee charged to the hardware wallet.

If your hardware is damaged, you can still like the option above. But if your hardware wallet is stolen, even better to send the whole coins into another wallet also in which transaction fee will be charged rather than importing it.

miningsetup

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I am working on buying a ledger device but before I do that I am trying to understand as best I can about the pros and cons for it.

If I lose my device or the device become demanded for some reasons then I can easily use the 24 word seed on Electrum (in an airgapped device, computer) and restore the BTC wallet securely. But I see no article around on how to restore non BTC coins.

For example if I have usdt in Tron network. How would I restore the Tron wallet securely using the 24 hour seed phrases?

Thanks for your answer in advance.

Topic: How to restore non BTC coins or tokens from a broken ledger device? (Read 303 times)