Topic: How wide reaching can the consequences of Chipmixer money laundering be? (Read 1464 times)

This is scary when i hear that the government officials can come up with an order to close the forum just because people are advertising mixers here. But then will they ban social media, facebook, twitter also if they see mixers being advertised their too?

If they really need to do the crackdown, the US government needs to ban the mixers and not the entities which are advertising it. By the way, they can only ban the mixers operating in or from the US. They can't ban the mixers worldwide just like they are unable to ban the cryptocurrencies.  

No harm in seeking clarification because I was unable to read between the lines 

I understand your opinion, thank you Halab for elaborating.

I think the general consensus here has to be that promoting mixers does not by default mean anything wrong is happening. Most people require some degree of privacy to to attempt to anonymise their BTC (such as signature campaign participants or lenders), however but some of the service providers could face having some of their services misused for criminal activity including money laundering.

The fact that all mixers are promising to provide an anonymous service means it could be targeted by criminals for nefarious purposes. Having said that, if any law enforcement agency stated they deemed mixers to be illegal it would change the equation very fast because the forum would ban their campaigns and probably their forum representative accounts too. On top of that forum members would not be wearing their brands in avatars or signatures.

Let's make a comparison with drug traffic.
There is a whole network with many people involved at different levels.
At the top, there is the big boss.
There are those who make the drugs.
There are those who handle the logistic.
There are those who sell the drugs.
There are those who watch to warn drug dealers when the cops are coming.
There are also the nannies (sorry I don't know the english word for people who stash drugs at home to make little money).
And there are those who buy drugs (whether they are heavy drug addicts or occasional users).

When the justice wants to dismantle a drug business, they go after the head, the important people and the important elements of the network. They will not arrest all the consumers. But if the justice wants to be zealous, the nannies or the watchers can be sentenced (to minor sanctions).

There with mixers, we don't know with which violence the arm of the justice will strike. Because it will strike one day.
As with drugs, those who have used a mixer for a small amount of money or who have displayed a signature here should not be worried (*). But, again, if the justice wants to be zealous, Bitcointalk as an entity can be considered as part of the network and the forum can be closed. This is the kind of thing, I think, Theymos wants to protect against.  

(*) Not a legal advice

I already wrote to you that you should be able to read between the lines so that some things would be clearer to you. The fact is that the administration decided to take that step for two reasons - the first is to protect themselves as individuals, and the second is to protect the forum from possible closure.

Each individual has always been responsible for his actions on the forum, and it will be so in the future, with the difference that now the forum administration completely separates itself from anyone who promotes mixers. In the event that someone decides to deal uncompromisingly with the mixers and those who advertise them, each individual will pay an individual price, and the forum will not be held responsible.

That's just my thinking though, I don't have any confidential information nor do I know what will happen in the future.

That is one thing that has been noticed, at this time mixers have not been blanket banned but it will become a very interesting topic of discussion if matters ever head in that direction.

I am confused, you stated the was up to that point very little risk for regular users at the same time as you said there were protective measures for theymos and staff (and the forum by default). Can you elaborate on the differentiation you stated between them?

Join the club 

I think there is no measure of protection for anyone, protect who and for what? as has been said, here the community performed only the task of advertising. I think it's more an ethical issue and shared by all the staff, as if to say "we don't want bitcoins deriving from illicit activities"

I have never participated in CM signature campaign, but I personally believe a scenario where members of this forum are targeted by intelligence agencies to be very unlikely.

In my opinion, the community rather performed a job of advertising and that itself is not illegal.
Even if they were to be targeted, why now? Why would those agencies wait to this day (after so many years) to do anything about the funds being paid for advertisement? Much of it is likely spent anyways.

I think future efforts will get directed towards the next services which would gain high volumes like those handled by CM, instead tracking down members of this community.

That is just my opinion, of course. I do not know anything about law in this matter.

No, not really. Mixers are in a grey area that is likely to get darker and darker. If the US government decides to ban mixers, the debate will be very short and you will have to learn how to post in the Gambling section
This is just a protective measure for Theymos, for Bitcointalk and (by consequence) for the Staff. For regular users there is (so far) very little risk, but if you have any doubt, go see a lawyer.
Don't overthink my words, I don't see the future, I don't have any secret information and I don't know anything about laws.

That was an interesting statement about staff being told to stop advertising mixers but does anybody know if any discussions took place to consider banning mixer signatures from the forum?

The authorities in Germany and the US have clearly stated their opinion, and everything is written in a document that has been made public. Aside from what we here on the forum think about mixers in the context of privacy, some very powerful people think completely differently and consider such a way of privacy illegal. Therefore, everyone who has promoted CM over the years, and everyone who promotes any mixer today, is doing exactly the same thing - there is no difference or logical justification that one is different from the other.



Well, considering that the investigation was conducted for years, it is not realistic to expect that we will find out everything so quickly. At this moment, no one from the forum's administration has announced whether they received a request to hand over all the information that is of interest to the investigators, and even if it happened, there is no obligation for the admins to say it publicly.


The answer was provided by another member, and I leave it to everyone to interpret it in their own way.

All staff members refuse or have withdrawn from participation in the advertising mixing service. there is no official announcement about it, but there is a much clearer indication to read between the lines. written by a member who has a great reputation here

Precisely. If any business was declared as a money launder or other criminal activity alleged against them, I would apply the only available logic and would stop participating in their signature campaigns. And add to that if allegations were made by forum members that they were scammed by any business I display in my avatar or signature then I will remove it and probably open (or at least participate) in a scam accusation thread.

I personally would not be worried about possibly being asked to hand over the received fees for the signature campaign but others might be. If asked by law enforcement agencies I would simply give it as I would not want to be viewed as a criminal or fugitive.

Having said, if law enforcement agencies made it clear they will ask Chipmixer signature campaign participants to send/surrender all funds they received from the Chipmixer signature campaign, I would immediately remove any mixer from my avatar and/or signature and never get involved with mixer campaigns again and that would only be because a precedent would have been set by the law enforcement agencies. As of yet, that has not happened.

I am missing something.

Can you quote that message please?

Interesting thinking, although there is no logic at all in what you wrote. The only difference between what you are currently promoting (and it is a mixer) and the CM that has been seized is that the former has not yet been officially placed in the same category, or in other words it has not been officially declared a money laundering service.

You cannot know who is using the mixer that you are currently promoting, but in case you find out that some criminals used it for their dirty business, will you then be worried that you will have to return all the earnings and that guys from some three agency letters will knock on your door?

In addition, thanks to one of the members, we know the official position of the forum administration regarding mixers, which is a very clear message for those who know how to read between the lines.

No I am not concerned because as with others I can make a distinction between promoting a service that provides privacy and one that could be misused if determined people (criminals) wanted to take advantage of, versus an out-and-out criminal enterprise.

If I get even the slightest bit of indication that either a scam or criminal enterprise is being promoted in my avatar or signature, I will remove them immediately. I had a very good deal with my long term signature partner and I am grateful for the opportunity to promote them but I moved on to whirlwind.money for now and will see how matters progress.

Yes, since most here share the view mixers are not banned therefore can be promoted then why not promote them however the issue goes further when it comes to privacy.

Mixers by default are supposed to be privacy based, that is their selling point. The notion of having regulated mixers would almost ensure they would not be shutdown by law enforcement agencies but it would defeat the idea because it would compromise client anonymity via AML/KYC. As that will not be happening any time soon (or ever), all mixers are basically open to allegations of money laundering and can be shutdown by various law enforcement agencies as and when they deem they have sufficient evidence to prosecute.

In my opinion, unless some form of evolution in mixing takes place where access of functionality is limited to criminals (or alleged criminals) or those with nefarious intentions then sooner or later all mixers will be shutdown either voluntarily or by law enforcement agencies.

I guess you must not be too worried about the consequences at this point, right? Seeing as you are one of those participating in the highest paying campaign atm, which is also a mixer.

As far as I can see most of the responses are along the same lines as well. I believe the same. It's one thing if there was a regulation or law banning mixers. If there were, I think there could be consequences for knowingly advertising an illegal service . But I understand that there is no such regulation, what there is is suspicion by the authorities that they are used for money laundering and lack of cooperation in response to requests. So, it's a different story.

If I remember correctly, then the URL "chipmixer[dot]one" was at the top when I did a basic search with the term "Chipmixer", It was definitely at the top.


I think it took a few hours or days to correct the google indexing, which led to the "chipmixer[dot]one" domain going down below 6-7 search results.
And now I can't even see the result on the first page of google.


I'm getting Wikipedia results and then article-writing websites' articles about chipmixer, such as theverge and coindesk

This link https://chipmixer.one/ is not functional and doesn't have a place in google ranking. I doubt they would be able to scam anyone even if they succeed in creating something like chipmixer. This is because the chipmixer ban and US seizure and money laundry activities are the key words you'll see when you type in chipmixer. Unless the person doesn't read.
Besides when I typed chipmixer in the google, these are the suggestions I got;
Chipmixer bitcointalk;
Chipmixer review;
Chipmixer reddit;
Chipmixer services;
Etc.

Its a fake one of course. It's not the first one though and probably not the last attempt as scammers are trying to trick those unaware that the real ChipMixer website is down. Unfortunately, some will fall for this.

After a search on google of "Chipmixer" I found there's another website that's up and running "https://chipmixer.one/"
I don't know if it's from the person who created the official chipmixer or if it's a clone.


Indeed Russia seems a good option, he can also flee to Switzerland but I'm unsure of the international laws and regulations of the country.

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Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChipMixer
"ChipMixer was a cryptocurrency laundering service operated out of Vietnam from servers run in Germany. The service was allegedly used to launder more than three billion dollars over a period of six years."

DS sent a notice to us by PM that he would settle the outstanding campaign earnings for last week with us up to the point the website was seized.

It will be enough to cover everyone, and then they'll be some amount left over (inc. manager commission).

The problem is that almost every country in the world has laws against corruption or money laundering. So he would have very few countries to flee to, without having the problem of justice in that country.

The country may not even have an extradition agreement, but an international arrest warrant allows the country to judge the person based on the crime they are accused of.

Russia could even be an escape option... but maybe he could also be committed to that country. Maybe it would be better to go to an island in the middle of the Pacific and hope that no one recognizes.

He is worried about funds left on the campaign address controlled by DarkStar_ around 1.30BTC.


what do you think is appropriate to do with these funds?
they cannot be returned to the Chipmixer owner for obvious reasons, and he also cannot continue paying for the campaign, which is obviously over. so what do you propose DS do with those funds?

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Will someone finally be encouraged and open a celebration thread dedicated to the closing of the campaign and the end of the lavish awarding of certain members of the CM gang?

He can only get extradited from the country where he is currently located if the US government has an extradition treaty with that country, we cannot expect Russia to cooperate with the US government or even China or any country without an extradition treaty so his only way is to get on countries where he can get an asylum provided that country
will accept him and protect him.
With huge money that he can easily transfer from one country to another, and knowledgeable of computer programming some countries will accept him.

If he gets caught and goes to prison, he will probably receive a sentence (if found guilty) long enough to see him die in prison.

He is on the run from the US law enforcement agencies and has an international arrest on his name, maybe his best chance in the long term is to hire the best lawyers to try to make a deal which could him travelling to the US voluntarily on the basis he remains out on bail until the until/unless convicted, he may have to surrender 'x' USD$ worth of BTC and if he receives guarantees the prosecution will not seek a sentence beyond 'x' years.

It is worth a try, he probably does have a lot of funds available therefore it would be a good time for him to spend them trying to find a way out of the mess he finds himself in.

True, but its easy to say "just surrender and get good lawyers" when you are not the one that has possibility of going to prison for 40 years and since that guy who is allegedly behind CM 49 years old, that's bascially a life sentence.

What do you think could be the chances that the Chipmixer owner collected user data such as mixing chip information, date/time, IP addresses and URL referrals of all or many transactions that took place on his website regardless of what he might have claimed he was or was not doing? After all, just because someone claims something does not mean they are true to their word.

It's an English board, and you just replied in Croatian. Try to post in English or at least make a new topic about the subject you are trying to inquire about, just in case it was deleted for being off-topic.

Why is my ost removed? I just wanted to know what would happen to the $40,000 left in the campaign fund.

They seized the site data, so they could find such info themselves. He himself probably doesn't have anything useful to offer because criminals would deal with the site, not him directly.

This is true, but he's wanted by the FBI. His chances of never getting caught are slim.

Regardless of anybody's personal opinions about the legality of the mixer service itself, the US government has declared it illegal and him worth going after. Being an identity thief isn't helping his case. Would it have been possible for him to run his operation without stealing the identities of others? Possibly not, but that's besides the point.

Nobody knows how much money the Chipmixer owner has access to or even where he is currently hiding but apart from getting caught or surrendering, what other options are there? If he is looking over his shoulder for the rest of his life it cannot be good for both physical and mental health regardless of the amount of funds he might have access to.

He should consider preparing a legal defence team (he probably has enough funds to hire the best legal experts) and then make a deal with the US authorities to find a solution.

I cannot recall properly but was the main reason scammer Paul Vernon the owner/operator of Cryptsy exchange never arrested because he ended up in China out of the way of US extradition treaties?

Why are you so sure that he will either get caught or surrender? Its obviously not easy to reach this guy because if it was, wouldn't they actually track him and arrest first before going public with all this and giving him an opportunity to run.

At the moment the news appears to be that the whereabouts of the owner of Chipmixer remains unknown. Maybe he has enough funds to remain hidden from any authorities chasing him but at some point he will end up getting caught or he will surrender voluntarily.

Do you think there could be any sort of plea bargain offered?

Chipmixer allegedly laundered approximately $3 billion but if the owner of Chipmixer is privy to certain information that could get criminals arrested (or if he has a vast amount of crypto from those mixes that he is willing to hand over) then it makes this case even more interesting.

Well they will have to catch him first. Afaik he is still at large and with the amount of money he (probably) has, he can stay hidden for quite a while. Or I misunderstood something and they got him already?

Well I'm sure some alphabet agency would have the authority to go after internet forum members if the government wanted to go that far, but as has been pointed out the funds that were used to advertise Chipmixer were minuscule in comparison to what they've already seized.  And frankly I just don't think that's going to happen.  Campaign participants rented out their signature space to a company that presumably they believed was doing business legally--but that's my opinion, and I don't have a good grasp of what the law is for stuff like this.

It'll be interesting to see what kind of defense the accused owner puts up.  Hopefully he's got enough money to hire a good lawyer after all those assets got ganked by the cabal of governments behind the investigation.  I say let justice take its course, but I'm also aware that defense attorneys are there for a reason, i.e., to challenge accusations that may or may not be true.

But it ain't looking good right now.

In reality I think what they want is an opportunity to get Bitcoins and make money. 

Curiously, yesterday I came across a very funny news: Legal Money Laundering: How A German Bank Is Cleaning Tainted Bitcoin And Other Dirty Cryptos

And how are they going to achieve it? Death sentence or life time behind the bar? I don't think much is going to happen. He will give them a lot of money they will reduce the bar time only if they can catch him. Considering the wealth the guy can easily change his identity, facial even physical structure those we see on the sci-fi  movies LOL.

My point is, they want to hold of as many Bitcoin as they can and make Bitcoin unusable. The market will decide the effect though.

I think this is unlikely to happen. Unless you really find some records, and you have moved very high values. Even so, it would be very difficult for them to find out who it was. And that would take a long time.

At this point they already have what they wanted, you just have to get it. When they capture the owner of ChipMixer, they'll want to make an example of him.

Of course.  None of us shall ever trust a company for what they claim.  Even if they can prove most of their claims, unless every single thing is verifiable one shall be naive to trust.

My prediction is we will find ourselves disappointed in a matter of years with a lot of companies.  I expect many of those companies claiming to respect Privacy of their users to trait us.  I expect many of them to be honey pots.  Unfortunately, I truly do believe that any body like me and you, regular people, would be silenced if we attempted to build something like Proton Mail, Chip Mixer or Bitcoin.  You have to be very smart to do this in such a way you do not get traced down and framed for your actions and ideas.  They are evidently drooling to find Satoshi and a way to untangle Coin Joins (JoinMarket ones now at least), Lightning Network and Monero.  There is a strong thirst for ways to demolish anything that can build Privacy.

I used Chip Mixer before.  But I never researched the way they function.  Now that it has been seized, is there any chance FBI gets to untangle previous transactions?

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

I have been reading various comments posted in the forum in the past where Chipmixer was alleged to have been a honeytrap. Some of the conspiracy theorists even said the forum was purchased by big corporations and are using it for nefarious purposes:

@theymos: False allegations made against theymos and BCT forum - by Vispilio

Until you mentioned it I probably never heard of Ghostery but as with all browser add-ons they can read your browsing history and do much more.

Regarding NordVPN, there have been rumours about them too but they have passed annual security audits regularly. As for Protonmail, apart from the time they gave the IP address to the French authorities of the person in question and when it was leaked in the media Proton clarified their position by saying they were compelled by Swiss law to hand the information over to the French police but said if the person in question had used a VPN they would have given that IP address instead.

Proton also seem to have kept certain metadata and other information which was not encrypted. Proton also said the email content was encrypted and not released to the French police. Since then there are not any rumours about their email or VPN service but they removed their no IP logging claim.

Still, I would advise to take caution and to not put blind trust in any online company.

Same here, and somehow this sort of thing gets discussed and come to the attention of the public.
I see no reason why CM participants should be responsible and accept the consequences for what they have carried in their signatures for several years. Even if CM is being used by criminals, I believe CM campaigns on forums are to help anyone wishing for better privacy.

I do not support money laundering, however, the perpetrators use any means including abusing mixer or casino services to complete their mission. It's unavoidable, in any case.

There is absolutely 0% chance the FBI or whatever other regulatory body this may fall under, goes after sig wearers. ZERO chance. If anyone is actually worried, don’t be. I wouldn’t lose a half second of sleep.

I don’t see any reason why the FBI will want to go after participants of Chipmixer signature campaign. I will miss seeing members wear the Chipmixer signature, I always look forward to their replies because it’s always constructive and on point. Chipmixer was one of the biggest and high paying campaigns on the forum which made a campaign for high quality members. It’s not surprising that some people are happy that others can’t earn from the campaign.

In this case I have not seen the reason while FBI will investigate the participants of chipmixer in bitcointalk, besides participants have no agreement or arrangements with the clients of chipmixer, so I believe that the only person that will held responsible if the investigation should move further is the chipmixer not the participants of chipmixer signatures, participants have not committed any crime, another reason its impossible to trapped participants of chipmixer because they're from different dominations and they payout is small fraction compared to the funds involved.

What if I told you protonmail was just another FBI trap to lure the criminals in? How do you know they aren't?

Here is another example:

There was a browser plugin called "ghostery". It was supposed to stop google from collecting your data and guess what happened... They logged your information instead and sold them to another 3rd party (at least that's what I've read about them)
https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/1gmxdz/consumer_affairs_ghosterys_shady_sells_your_data/

https://www.businessinsider.com/evidon-sells-ghostery-data-to-advertisers-2013-6

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What about NordVPN?

I am damn sure I read something about them not being as anonymous as they advertise themselves to be. Let's pretend I didn't. Would you trust NordVPN's services if you were into any illegal shit?

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The moral of the story here is you cannot trust any service or any company which claims to protect your privacy. You are just making yourself an easy target especially if you are dealing with any kind of shady shit. They will let you watch porn and pretend you aren't jerking off to it and that's it. Even watching porn might get you into trouble depending on the type you are into.

Believing that protonmail is a safe privacy email service is like believing everything the TV tells you.   

- This is the most anonymous email service!
+ Why? How do you know?
- Are you blind? It says it on its cover!!

It's not the Wasabi it used to. Common sense 

In which capacity is Wasabi lost? Their website is operational.

I open up Bitcoin Talk and see a well known Chip Mixer participant having no Chip Mixer Signature.  I move on to Dark Star's Campaign thread and I see it ended.  What the hell, did I wake up in some parallel universe this morning?

I am so saddened by the news.  Intentionally or not, they are leaving us with fewer and fewer options.  I take the Chip Mixer seizing action and FBI statements with a HUGE pile of salt due to how much these guys HATE us having Privacy and due to how sketchy most of the authorities actions against Cryptocurrency stuff were historically.  We are living a sad moment where some of our team mates are jumping in the boats of the Enemy and others are simply being silenced and incarcerated.  We lost the Silk Road.  We lost Wasabi.  We lost Chip Mixer.  Probably more but this is all that comes up in my mind.  If you take a proper look, you see that we are slowly losing freedom.  This is what should be in your attention, and not this particular event.  Take two steps back and look at the general situation.

You know what.  If there was clear evidence any of them had an implication in such a big percentage of crimes, go for it.  But I think it is extremely unfair.  Fiat and Banks offer a much, much bigger room for crimes than Bitcoin, Wasabi, Chip Mixer or Silk Road did.  Yet, Fiat is still going.  Banks are still running, even if many of them allow Wealthy individuals to use Banks as a way to launder and move illegal money for illegal operations.

But it all goes down to this.  On the facade, FBI seizes businesses and incarcerate their operators showing the World how well intended they are.  The actual situation, to me, sounds much like the contrary.  They are taking away our freedom.  Slowly, steadily, wrongfully.  Political corruption is now known well enough to understand that politics are automatically linked to illegal operations of money.  To theft.  Bribes.  False accusations.  Room for child exploitation with zero consequences.  And so much more.  Chip Mixer did not do as much harm as any of the non Cryptocurrency related events and actions I mentioned in this post are.  This is why I say what FBI is doing is just a facade.  I have no trust in them.  I would have no trust in FBI telling me they are trying to protect me.  I would have no trust in an authority at all.

A sad day for Privacy enthusiasts.  I wish I woke up with different news.  That Wasabi somehow managed to fool them into thinking they jumped to the Enemies but actually using the Enemy to their and our advantage.  That Chip Mixer gained so much traction that FBI is afraid they can do nothing to stop them.  That some miraculous judge orders Ulbricht be free or the illegal vendors of Silk Road served the sentences they deserved instead of him.  But this is reality.  And reality almost always sucks.

I believe no body will go after Chip Mixer participants, unless they can easily link a few users and punish them as a way to frame them and show to the World why you should be afraid.  I rather think their next target is now something much bigger.  Something like this Forum.  They have bigger plans in mind than finding who PrivacyG or a random Chip Mixer participant is.  They need actions that lead to big reactions.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

True!! There is a huge difference between unknowingly promoting an illegal campaign which is the case on chipmixer. Few years ago this is one of my dream to be part of this successful and one of the longest running campaigns in this forum. Though I'm sadden by the recent news, it is not reasonable for FBI to pursue signature wearers and spend lots of resources doing that. Campaign promoters are getting paid to promote while following the external rule imposed on this forum, it's not as if they are directly working on the mixer. Besides if the FBI still wants to pursue this matter, it would seem to look like they are just fishing the small fishes just to prove they have the authority over, while proving nothing on the case.

A very well articulated and thought out post. I am surprised the FBI and/or any other agency showed zero interest when members from the forum were it seems lining up to inform them of theft related to sums around $1 million.

I understand the point about Bitconnect advertising but when you look at how yahoo62278 put forward another perspective it might or might not have implications. Time will tell I suppose. This is the issue of the way and manner in which the authorities seem to implement their use of the law, the lack of consistency leads to misunderstandings.

It's jealously, envy, bitterness mouth tasting. A lot of people out there drives by their failure than achievements. They lack skills but works hard eventually only working hard is not taking you to the top. Skill and hard-work along with other success factor makes a man to achieve their desire. Well obviously your ethics should be not harming others.

Don't forget there are these other type of people. They seek opportunity to stay with the trend and allow themselves to get some attention.

OP, it sounds like the topic is about a service and possible outcome for the service promoters. Does it deserve to be in the reputation?

You are not discussing about DT/none DT members, their reputation, nothing related to forum member reputation then why it's in this board.

I think moderators should move it to service discussion section.

The FBI isn’t going to come after signature wearers. They don’t have the time or resources first off. Secondly, those who advertised for CM didn’t have access to internal protocols, so how could they have known. The FBI went after the major promoters of bitconnect, but didn’t attempt to contact anyone underneath them promoting the obvious ponzi. They want those in charge, who were in the know.

In the collectibles world here on the forum there’s been an attempt to contact the FBI and other regulatory bodies over essentially theft by a coin maker that is likely well over a million dollars  ..we’ve been turned away and sent on a wild goose chase left and right to try and get some legal body to just listen to what’s going on. If it’s that hard to get someone to investigate a million dollars + in fraud, does anyone really think they’ll go after CM signature wearers who weren’t aware they were promoting an illegal business.


I Remember when bitconnect ads were all over YouTube…the most obvious ponzi in a long time.  Problem is google is more powerful than the FBI, as the US allows for massive corps to fund political campaigns all they want , which means politicians are mostly just bought puppets, who can (and do) tell the FBI to leave certain companies alone. It’s the biggest joke in the US governmental system that this is still allowed.

This was the scenario I found somewhat concerning because even though I did not participate in the Chipmixer signature campaign and I do not feel concern for anybody specific that promoted them, I feel a little concerned in general about the situation if the authorities try to use the Chipmixer incident to start a whole new trend and set a new precedent.

The same forum members who, for some reason, were the loudest in demanding a pay rate reduction in the CM campaign, are now opening the champagne and celebrating what happened, while widely speculating that everyone who participated in the campaign will be identified and convicted. Human malice has no limits, and if the forum is taken over, maybe some of them will be the main witnesses in the prosecution of "criminals".


Of course, everyone who participated in any way, even mentioned CM in any context, will be held responsible. Maybe even those who gave merits to members of the campaign for their good posts, because that is also a form of support

Anyone can file a suit but it's up to the court to decide if it's correct to include these promoters in the criminal suit against FTX, this is an investment scam, not an advertising-related platform and content issue it doesn't connect, section 230 is still good based on what I research on Chipmixer issue on Bitcointalk until repealed if they repeal it I don't think it will retroactive.
Promoters are still safe when it comes to platform and content but probably not when it comes to promotion and investment issues.

I wonder, if the Chipmixer signature campaign paid $70-$100 a week like the others, would there be so much concern and drama about the investigation of its participants or even about the forum itself?

I have shared the link to their page on FB and Twitter a couple of times, should I be worried?

I don't know if anyone advertising chipmixer or any other mixer will now or ever face any penalties, but I will say that laws change. Check out these 2 stories involving FTX fiasco.

https://cryptopotato.com/ftx-youtube-influencers-slammed-with-class-action-lawsuit/

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/ftx-crypto-investors-sue-founder-sam-bankman-fried-celebrity-promoters-rcna57453

I'm sure none of these influencers/celebrities knew they were advertising what turned out to be a scam, but here they are facing possible legal issues.

There should be a mechanism in law for them to do that, authorities will go for the platform and never on a third-party platform or person, for lack of law that will hold liable those who promote mixers.

Physical laws and internet laws are very much different when it comes to marketing and advertising they cannot use the physical laws to apply on internet issues.

Welcome 

They have already published their case against the owner/operator of Chipmixer therefore they probably will not be seeking to get any more information to strengthen their case against him.

I hope that settles that then. Others in the forum have quoted the same section of that law, I hope that settles the concerns.

You are right those casinos and ICO/STO/IEO scams that made anonymous people behind them overnight multi-millionaires, how many of them were ever brought to appear in Courts to face justice?

If the general consensus in the forum is one of calm for those that participated in the signature campaign then that is precisely what is needed at this time. You are right, there has never been a case of any authorities asking signature campaign participants to repay monies. I hope the authorities do not start trying to do it now as a deterrent to stop people promoting mixers.

Since a lot perhaps most people are not under FBI jurisdiction I don't think any are worried.
As for paying back, there have been other mixers seized and nothing happened to the people wearing those sigs.
There have been scam ICO / IEO and everything else shut down by authorities and nothing happened to the people wearing those sigs.
There have been cases of casinos shut down by authorities and nothing happened to the people wearing those sigs.

And so on.

-Dave

No, this isn't the end of mixing services. It will never be the end, whether deemed legal or illegal. Where one is taken down others will grow in it's place, likely Sinbad and Yo!Mix this time around.


Indeed, this is the most likely reasoning that the information wasn't useful, rather than it wasn't requested in the first place imo.


Bare in mind their entire investigation was based on IP and email addresses, as they used this to make connections to exchange/paypal accounts. So they wouldn't be requesting this information expecting to get a name and address, but more so in order to investigate that data and see where else it's used. Specifically a service that is connected to bank accounts or requests KYC, which is what they did.


There was the following data, just not the messages it seems (as uses end-to-end encryption if not mistake):

Topics about Bitcointalk connection to Chipmixer should end with this law

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230

We are all speculating on something that is unlikely to happen when there is already a defense on the liability of any online platforms when it comes to third-party or user content unless this section 230 is repealed or taken down, online platform's liability is zero


Check out this video so we can understand this section 230 which created the internet into what it is today and stop dragging Bitcointalk to the Chipmixer mess.

Section 230: An Explanation of 'the Internet's Favorite Law'

Maybe because the information that will be presented is not useful? The forum collects basic information such as IP addresses and other simple data that does not lead to a general failure to reveal identity, so I do not think that they are looking for such information, but they always go to email service providers, Apple and Google.

More data they will get from members like @DarkStar_ or at least they may try to get it.

Strangely enough, no data was reported from Proton's email, although it was the main email that the team used.

I didn't aware of this seize of Chipmixer until I stumble on this thread so thanks OP for this thread, DarkStar_ said he doesn't have any contact with Chipmixer in the campaign thread and also now its marked as ended so this is the end of bitcoin mixing services? Many reputed sites were took down by government for knowingly or unknowingly mixing the coins used for illicit purposes so the same goes for Chipmixer as well?

I don't think this will not affect the campaign participants in anyway because the campaign rewards is negligible compared to the amount we are talking related to Chipmixer so the main investigation will be targeted towards huge amounts mixed using the platform.

That rumour was spread by a small number of conspiracy theorists, I doubted it then along with many others. I still do not believe Chipmixer was a honeypot.

I am not a legal expert but it really would be something strange if they tried to shut the forum down because the defence used by the websites you listed should suffice.

I hope you are right. They will probably ask or already have asked for information related to the Chipmixer account and hopefully that will be the end as far as them keeping this forum in mind is concerned.

I referenced this on previous page that authorities didn't publish that they requested information from bitcointalk, despite making a lot of references. At least, they didn't publish any evidence from any requests that is.


So they might well of done so (and probably did imo), but if the IPs were from VPN or otherwise obscured (which is very likely) then they didn't publish the results as part of investigation...

This is highly unlikely. The forum was just a means of communication used by ChipMixer, nothing more.
Furthermore, the forum administration has no connection to ChipMixer.

The worst that could happen (if it hasn't happened yet), is for the authorities to request information about the user who allegedly represented ChipMixer here on the forum.

It is highly unlikely any law enforcement agency in the US will go after Google (or any other US based tech giant) in any capacity unless it involved any competition laws or tax evasion.

Crypto is still relatively new when comparing to traditional finance and the unfortunate association and correlation people make between crypto and crime make it an easy target. That should not negate anything that Chipmixer has been accused of because if misuse has taken place the owner/operator of Chipmixer will probably be arrested and brought before a court to face charges which he will have every opportunity to challenge and defend.

I have to say though, seeing negative headlines again about crypto and criminal activity (such as money laundering) does not look good for those that know very little about crypto or are just taking their first steps in buying and trading.

Yes it does but if I recall correctly those conspiracy theories were not the majority view, they were far and few.

I never contemplated a scenario before where this forum could be viewed as a problem by any governmental agency but now that you mention it, would it really be a surprise if they seized the domain and shut down the forum?

There's been a lot of discussion about Bitcointalk's liability in the case of Chipmixer there's already a ruling on this and so far it is not yet reformed so we can say that it still applies to this case
I would like to cite


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230

Eliminating this section 230 will reshape the internet and this is the same defense Facebook and other social media platforms uses to defend themselves against the attack and their liability for the content their users uploaded.

I rarely leave posts in reputation threads and this time with good intentions filled with curiosity I would like to ask a few questions regarding the ChipMixer website seizure.

First, I am sorry to hear about this incident. Secondly, if the alleged seizure of ChipMixer is due to the crimes as you say, namely;
1. money laundering;
2. running an unlicensed money-transmitting business;
3. identity theft.
Will the International authorities follow up with bitcointalk?

Thank you for your positive response.
https://www.reuters.com/technology/cybercriminals-crypto-platform-chipmixer-taken-down-says-europol-2023-03-15/

About indexing, if they make something available are they responsible if it ends up being scam related? Has that ever been tested in any Court?

When the authorities were busy chasing down so-called file sharing websites because movies and songs were being shared, they went after all of them but then left Google (because they owned Youtube) out of the picture when videos, music and movies all copyrighted were available for free on their platform.

I vaguely recall something about an investigation in to the material available on Youtube in the time of it being purchased and about lawsuits against Google but nothing happened partially because the corporations made deals with Google. I could have that wrong.

Oh yeah, there was such a rumor going around. I remember that!

But then again, the conspiracy theorists will just make up another conspiracy. For example, the newest conspiracy could be that the honey pot was discovered or they decided it was not viable anymore and it got shut down. And the entire seizure is just the FBI's excuse to make it look like it was never a honey pot.

Honestly, I did not really believe the first conspiracy theory so I am not going to believe any subsequent theories.

I don't know how is this going to be possible, it will be a subject of a very long debate and when it comes to internet marketing everything is on impression and reputation and not on liability.
Some websites do not allow gambling drugs or porn because they want to have a good reputation on the internet not because they are going to be prosecuted, and there are sites that allow it and even dedicated their sites to it, we have porn sites and cannabis sites which are considered ban in other countries.
The FBI and the Justice do not have jurisdiction when it comes to internet marketing and third-party advertisement, if there is a ruling, the big question is who are covered by this ruling, and how are they going to implement this.

I think this puts to rest those conspiracy theories about Chipmixer being a honeypot operated by government agencies.

I doubt this will affect regular users but there is a possibility they could try to shut down this forum. There is already a similar precedent when Deep Dot Web was seized by the FBI. It would be an overreach for them to go this route but if they really wanted to shut down BitcoinTalk this would be their best opportunity. As far as I'm aware Chipmixer didn't advertise anywhere else besides this forum.

Wait you are missing it. The domain registers are the hosting and domain providers, right? What about ICANN? Before everyone else, file a case against ICANN for creating the whole domain things LOL.

Wait! I think they need to ban the entire internet.

If internet was not there then we would not need ICANN. No ICANN, there were no need for domain registers. No domain registers, how would even buy Chipmixer? So let give all blame to the internet. Now since internet is illegal, all these people who are using internet are criminal. File a case against everyone in the world now LOL. We need a bigger space in jail! What? Now my 4 years girl will be jailed for using internet (watching YouTube)! Chipmixer MFs! What have you done to the world? 🤧

I am going back to my cave 🤣

There's going to be a huge debate about internet censorship if ever they fine signature campaign participants, they first have to prosecute and fine the domain registrar and the host hosting Chipmixer, and Google for indexing Chipmixer and everything related to why Chipmixer is online.

I don't know if there's a past ruling about liability being a third party on a site considered by US Justice Department and FBI as an offensive platform, but first, they have to prosecute and render a decision on Chipmixer before they will have long deliberation on internet marketing, which will involve internet giants like Facebook, Google and everything associated to the internet.

 

If only... I don't blame them for the indexing. The thing is that anyone can literally pay money to have a scam website linked at the top of the results. I can literally create bitcointalk100realnotscam.com and pay google so my website shows up at the top when someone googles for "bitcointalk".

That is one outcome, another could be that some could try to simply close shop and move on to other businesses as they could deem it a business not worth carrying on with if the threat of arrest and imprisonment looms over them all the time.

I remember when people were making the case that search engines and websites (especially Google/Youtube) that were allowing copyright material to be uploaded and linked should be shut down on the lines of pirate video websites therefore using the same analogy I understand why you said that. Google and other search engines allow any nonsense to be indexed and then shared without any fear yet the people who have probably become victims after finding scams and siphoning website directly from hyperlinks have no way to accuse them.

Exactly, we all condemn the use of illegal activity but we all would like to have privacy respected.

Thank you about "Coded Bias", I will try to check it out as soon as I have enough time to watch it.

Maybe theymos will make a comment on the subject. I hope he does provide clarity on your comments.

What a pathetic post

We all are waiting to see the outcome, let us see how far the FBI are willing to go link Chipmixer to any individual or organisation. As long as a fair and transparent investigation takes place that is all that is expected.

What a ridiculous post

I hope the issue stays to the point between FBI vs Chipmixer and that is all. If it gets to a point where campaign participants are targeted it would set a very dangerous precedent on the privacy of forum members and that would be unacceptable to most.

This is just a speculation FBI and the US justice department's first concern is to put the owner on trial and trace hackers and scammers on the databases they seized, I've seen so many hacks and scams on the internet but there are no decisions that put the advertisers and marketers as accomplishes, they always go for the owners and perpetrators.

The FBI knows how internet marketing is being done and they never put the liability on the third-party advertisement platform there is not even a ruling on this that we can cite.

I am not in Chipmixer campaign but I don't think any member of the forum is aware that the company is promoting money laundering or other illicit business transactions as alleged by the FBI and others. I am sure many participants would have left the campaign if they are aware of these allegations. These members were paid for the legitimate service they rendered to the company, hence there is no legal justification for a request to pay back what that have earned until it is proved that these members are aware or part of these alleged crime. It's really sad to see this happen, let's see how fair and just the investigation will be.

This is bitcointalk forum not Chipmixertalk. Chipmixer was just a service like many others who advertised or advertising on the forum. So let's not make it sounds like Bitcointalk is Chipmixer.

For some reasons if they seize Google then are you asking them to seize the money of everyone who are earning from Google Adsense, Youtube monetization and many others Google service? Okay say they do, good luck with that.

More than 38 million websites worldwide use AdSense, data from 2018. Add four plus years with it. Good luck with that.
Every year, Google pays over $10 billion to its publishers, data from 2018 again. Get all those money.
Source: https://oko.uk/blog/adsense-facts

I am very lazy now to find data for YouTubers.

Fair enough, Google may comply with financial laws but don't you think today or tomorrow, by any chance when the authority will get upset for some reasons and accuse Google for privacy violation? Google even knows what key you are typing when you are using any of their application. Type a word in compose email, don't do anything else, take off your hand from the keyboard. Open the email from another device, check your draft. They are taking everything from you. With them you have no privacy. My privacy worth more than any money related things. So it's bigger crime. How long they will continue like this. Today, tomorrow, a few years from now. Then someday the eyes of authorities will open. They will shut down Google. It's what they do. Aren't they trying it with Facebook already?

Anyway, you may not aware (you should be) posting others real image, data of birth, address, phone number or even email address is prohibited. Only you can post such information on the investigation board. It does not matter if the information are even everywhere on the web. You can not post it here. So, either move it to investigation board or remove it. I will be reporting the topic after the post. If I am not wrong then, for such careless posts, you may get banned too.

I'm not convinced this will be the case, for the exact reason TryNinja explained:


There's also a difference between knowingly advertising a service that's been deemed illegal, and unknowingly, at least as far as I understand. There's an argument for everyone still wearing the signature to now remove it for this reason, but at the same time the signature is no longer advertising an "illegal service" - because the website is no longer operational. So is kind of irrelevant either way imo.

---

More relevant though imo, a particularly strange part of the court documents highlights how far the reach of warrants to different services extended (or records provided) by the likes of; Google, Yahoo, Protonmail, Paypal, Binance, Dropbox, Apple, LinkedIn,, Twitter, Reddit, Hetzner, DigitalOcean... basically everyone and anything to do with the inveestigation, but bitcointalk wasn't referenced as included?

At least it's not referenced that bitcointalk provided information or received a warrant. I understand when referencing the "ChipMixer persona" - as it's reasonable to assume ChipMixer profiles would represent the ChipMixer service based on public posts - but when in reference to "hotpassion" that is accused of being the suspect's alt, there was apparently no information provided or warrant used? Would they not request information in order to double check IP addresses further, with hotpassion and/or ChipMixer profile? Maybe they did and the IP's didn't match their narrative so weren't used as evidence? Just a theory at least.

This is one part of the investigation I can't get my head around. Either bitcointalk was an exception to the rule, and was one of the few (or only) websites that didn't didn't provide records or receive a warrant, or otherwise they didn't use evidence of it (ie reference it) as it wasn't useful/accurate to their investigation. As otherwise worst case scenario there is an ongoing investigation to do with bitcointalk and chipmixer, so they didn't want to use any of the evidence in the documents - as would then have to reference the records/warrant provided - and tip users off. I don't mean to be a conspiracy theorist here, but it's super weird imo.

Ideally theymos could clarify whether any US agencies requested information, or if any was provided. Because if he can't, then it'd be an argument for bitcointalk using a canary in future.

The authorities go after the big ones, not the little ones. Furthermore, the advertisers have not committed any illegality or done anything wrong.

Users who participated in the campaign do not have any responsibility for how the company's business is done.

TryNinja gave the example of Google, but the same happens with newspapers, television, radio. They advertise many products and services, which later become mean. They just did what they were paid, within the law, everything else is beyond them.

Therefore, this is a concern that no one here should have.

I'm already on a list. So I'm not scared of anyone.

---

Do you think, we would advertise a service that is only used by criminals and money launderers? I mean, that is the go-to excuse used by everyone.

Chipmixer distributed about ~300 BTC and then some (since the $300 cap was introduced) via signature campaigns during its operation, which is a small fraction of the "$3 billion money laundering" the reports like to talk about. It had an average value of (you guessed it) $300 * 55 * 383 weeks = about $6.3 million dollars at the time each of the payments were made, or $100K for each person.

The actual total is much less than that since the campaign had a few hundred users over the past 6 years and most people did not get the maximum $300 p/w (it was more like $150 on average). So the average person who stays in the campaign makes just $7,800 a year. This is a far cry from even the seized 1,909BTC. In fact it's not even 1BTC so it makes no sense for the feds to bother with such a small (to them) sum.

The other thing is how are you going to extort all these people (such as me) to pay up? Please don't tell me they will hire Lauda to do that they can't do anything, because they can't serve 300+ users all living in 50+ jurisdictions, and good luck serving users who have vanished such as figmentofmyass and yogg.  

We advertised a service that was good for the people who wanted to protect their privacy. We, like other sane people, do not support and strongly condemn immoral uses of mixers.

You should watch "Coded Bias" on Netflix. It's about AI, but you can still get Big Brother ideas out of it.

They should first go after Google for receiving money for scam advertising (which happens on a large scale, every single day).

Eh... seems like a waste of time. Not everyone is from the US, and I don't think mixers by themselves are illegal.

The paper on ChipMixer by the DoJ implies that their crimes were:

1. money laundering;
2. operating an unlicensed money-transmitting business;
3. identity theft.

Would CM be hunted if they specifically analyzed the coins received before mixing them? Like, imagine them contacting Chain analysis and asking if the coins a user sent came from a DNM, and if so, prompting the user for his KYC documents... (crime 1)

Would they be hunted if they disallowed US customers and enforced that by also taking KYC documents (thus not being an "unlicensed money-transmitting business" in the US?) (crime 2)

And last, if ChipMixer didn't register his PayPal accounts with bought/stolen documents? (crime 3)

https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1574581/download

I believe some mixer owners will get scared, and try to review their privacy level.

But even though one or two mixers might shut down for fear, most will continue to operate normally. Most will take advantage of this situation to capture more users.

I think as long as a mixer stays small, not too big like the ChipMixer, it should be able to operate without significant problems.

And for that to happen, we as users also have some responsibility. For being more diversified in using mixers, and avoiding always using the same one. If we use several different mixers, it is less likely that one mixer will get too big, and at the same time, we run less risk if any mixers are closed by the authorities.

EDITED: Chipmixer has been seized by the FBI and a warrant for arrest issued for the owner/operator.

I have obfuscated the real name of the owner/operator of the Chipmixer website by replacing what appears on the FBI website with XXX instead. The original images of the FBI website and most of the original OP here will be moved to the Investigations board.

The FBI website states this about him:

Remarks:
XXX has basic training in cryptographic engineering and previously worked in decrypting communications and cyber reconnaissance. In 2016, XXX earned a PhD in electronic engineering in Taiwan.

Caution:
XXX is wanted for his alleged direct involvement in stealing identities and engaging in money laundering activity in furtherance of obfuscating and facilitating the functionality of the ChipMixer service.  Through this conduct, XXX has allegedly facilitated the laundering of approximately $3 billion USD worth of Bitcoin.  A large portion of the funds are directly associated with the victimization of people worldwide through ransomware attacks, cryptocurrency heists, the purchase of illicit drugs, the distribution and production of child sexual abuse material, and other crimes.

On March 14, 2023, XXX was charged with Money Laundering, Operating an Unlicensed Money Transmitting Business, and Identity Theft in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and a federal warrant was issued for his arrest.


-----------


What signal does this international operation to seize Chipmixer send out to other mixers? I am no expert but as far as I can see, in the end, they all will be marked by various international agencies for eventual seizing and the arrest and trial of their owners and employees.

According to news outlets, German authorities seized servers and crypto worth $46 million. US authorities have accused Chipmixer of laundering over $3 billion since 2017. If international authorities will try to seize all funds related to Chipmixer as they are deemed to be illicit, then it is possible that an attempt could be made by authorities to retrieve all the funds that have been paid out as signature campaign fees as they have effectively promoted/advertised the service.

This could end up being very messy for a lot of members in the forum that participated in their signature campaigns if the FBI and US justice department decide to force forum members to repay all the money they received from Chipmixer as signature campaign income.

How do those that participated in the Chipmixer signature campaign feel about this? Do you think you will be asked to repay all the money you received for promoting Chipmixer since the FBI and other international agencies have attributed them to money laundering?