Huge China Manipulation | Bitcointalksearch.org

Bit_Happy

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A Great Time to Start Something!

Quote from: Newfeeling on April 11, 2014, 07:37:18 PM

Quote from: Bit_Happy on April 11, 2014, 02:53:36 PM

Quote from: Newfeeling on April 11, 2014, 02:19:38 PM

...BTC stability is imperative ...

No it is not imperative to have stability.
Futures contracts and options can easily manage risk.
For people who need something more simple, a company can "insure" the value for a small added fee.

That's actually a really good point; I hadn't considered that possibility.

That having being said however, a little more stability definitely couldn't hurt.

From a merchant's perspective, carrying BTC as an option for the customer would be very attractive so long as the fees (no doubt determined by BTC volatility - at least in part) for the service you mentioned are appropriately competitive with fees charged by card processors like visa and mastercard.

a little more stability definitely couldn't hurt

Agreed, last year featured "insane" price swings.
The BTC mega-Bulls always get crazy once the market clearly starts to move higher.
Maybe someday they will learn to calm down a bit?

bgmc

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Quote from: GTO911 on April 11, 2014, 09:50:42 AM

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no shit they're manipulating the market! I'm willing to bet that once the price reaches 800-1000, the Chinese will start slowly selling and then 'ban bitcoin' again. But you can't cry wolf too many times before the towns people stop believing you.

Newfeeling

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Quote from: Bit_Happy on April 11, 2014, 02:53:36 PM

Quote from: Newfeeling on April 11, 2014, 02:19:38 PM

...BTC stability is imperative ...

No it is not imperative to have stability.
Futures contracts and options can easily manage risk.
For people who need something more simple, a company can "insure" the value for a small added fee.

That's actually a really good point; I hadn't considered that possibility.

That having being said however, a little more stability definitely couldn't hurt.

From a merchant's perspective, carrying BTC as an option for the customer would be very attractive so long as the fees (no doubt determined by BTC volatility - at least in part) for the service you mentioned are appropriately competitive with fees charged by card processors like visa and mastercard.

Bit_Happy

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A Great Time to Start Something!

Quote from: Newfeeling on April 11, 2014, 02:19:38 PM

...BTC stability is imperative ...

No it is not imperative to have stability.
Futures contracts and options can easily manage risk.
For people who need something more simple, a company can "insure" the value for a small added fee.

envy2010

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Volatility is bad for bitcoin (the protocol) adoption, even though it doesn't seriously affect it's function as a transfer protocol since there are plenty of ways to convert to other currencies instantly.

Any investment in actual Bitcoins (the coins) is purely speculative, since there is no return unless the price goes up. Speculative investment is still investment, but it not the only way to invest in bitcoin (the protocol), one could put money in a bitcoin startup or service company.

semaforo

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Bitcoin is also a way to keep your savings digitally and be responsible for it yourself- especially for people who have moral issues with the way the banking system works (seriously, how can you not?!??!).

So really, buying bitcoin or gold is just the right thing to do- but gold is even more inconvenient to transact with than bitcoin! Price swings and people not accepting bitcoin is just the inconvenience (and sometimes incidentally massive profit) that goes with the moral high ground.

envy2010

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Pizza?

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/pizza-for-bitcoins-137

dmpotter

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Quote from: bitcoinsrus on April 11, 2014, 02:39:18 PM

Quote from: dmpotter on April 11, 2014, 02:37:38 PM

Heck its fun too, bought .75 btc ~ 400 and bought some stuff at TD when the price was 425, bitcoin isn't an investment, it's a real awesome coupon!

Today's special BTC10,000 for 2 pizzas Grin

I see what you did there Grin

bitcoinsrus

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Quote from: dmpotter on April 11, 2014, 02:37:38 PM

Heck its fun too, bought .75 btc ~ 400 and bought some stuff at TD when the price was 425, bitcoin isn't an investment, it's a real awesome coupon!

Today's special BTC10,000 for 2 pizzas Grin

dmpotter

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Heck its fun too, bought .75 btc ~ 400 and bought some stuff at TD when the price was 425, bitcoin isn't an investment, it's a real awesome coupon!

chesthing

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Quote from: Torque on April 11, 2014, 10:50:58 AM

Quote from: JimboToronto on April 11, 2014, 10:43:23 AM

Buying bitcoins isn't investing. Unless you're buying them to use for purchasing things, you're just speculating.

Merely buying and selling bitcoins is just gambling like a casino, stock market or lottery.

So if I buy gold to use as a store of value, and then sell it later, am I gambling? How about property as a store of value? If I exchange $USD for another currency, hold it, and then exchange it back, am I gambling?

A good reason that some sell their bitcoin back to fiat is that not all merchants except bitcoin (yet), can't pay their bills or rent with it (yet), can't pay their taxes with it (probably never will happen), can't buy a new car with it (yet), etc.

Hell, if I could use bitcoin everywhere for all my purchases, pay my taxes with it, and get paid directly in bitcoin, I'd never use $USD ever again. If that scenario came true, I would still hold some BTC in my account (like a savings account)... and that's not gambling to hold a currency.

Why would you want to pay a transfer fee every time you buy or sell something?

jparsley

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Quote from: Bit_Happy on April 11, 2014, 01:33:06 PM

For many people BTC succeeds because of the wild swings.
LOL.......?

most of them are buying back in

Newfeeling

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Quote from: Bit_Happy on April 11, 2014, 01:33:06 PM

For many people BTC succeeds because of the wild swings.
LOL.......?

For BTC to succeed for people that aren't looking to day or swing trade the wild swing nonsense will have to stop. BTC stability is imperative if we're expecting it to be used as a day-to-day currency; I don't think John Q. Public is very fond of the idea that the BTC he just traded his hard-earned fiat for could leave him short for rent on one day and on the next day see his BTC worth twice as much after he already paid his rent.

Bit_Happy

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A Great Time to Start Something!

For many people BTC succeeds because of the wild swings.
LOL.......?

superduh

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wait till the #45 bitcoin ban of china august 2014.

honestly, the people there don't give two shits anyways. they'll just look for ways to make money regardless of "the laws".

bitcoinsrus

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Quote from: rudius on April 11, 2014, 01:12:13 PM

Quote from: bitcoinsrus on April 11, 2014, 10:56:56 AM

When he said gambling, I think he was referring to the uncertainty of bitcoins future. We don't know if another alt might come, issue with protocal etc. Things like gold and USD will most likely stay and continue to be used.

most likely... But what about the intrinsic value. They are 4 times more $ since 2008. It won t be unnoticed too long.

The funny thing about this is that I tell my folks about it and they simply don't want to invest. I think of them as like a focus group for average people first witnessing bitcoin. They don't really seem to understand the concept and its true value. Even my dad who bought facebook stock (when the first thing I told him was to not buy it at all or atleast not when it came out (would be pumped to high) would not listen to me.

Well, I think the public needs to see it in familiar applications for them to really get behind it like paypal or in google glass etc

Equate

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enough of Chinese FUD , it's better if it gets weeded out like gox.

rudius

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Quote from: bitcoinsrus on April 11, 2014, 10:56:56 AM

When he said gambling, I think he was referring to the uncertainty of bitcoins future. We don't know if another alt might come, issue with protocal etc. Things like gold and USD will most likely stay and continue to be used.

most likely... But what about the intrinsic value. They are 4 times more $ since 2008. It won t be unnoticed too long.

Torque

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Quote from: JimboToronto on April 11, 2014, 11:07:54 AM

Quote from: Torque on April 11, 2014, 10:50:58 AM

So if I buy gold to use as a store of value, and then sell it later, am I gambling? How about property as a store of value? If I exchange $USD for another currency, hold it, and then exchange it back, am I gambling?

Basically yes, it's speculation if all you're planning to do is sell it later for a profit. It's called land speculation or currency speculation.

I know what it's called, I wasn't born yesterday. Yes I'm fully aware that some people speculate on their "store of value du jour." But some don't speculate at all, they simply want to store their fiat into something that they hope won't depreciate relative to the fiat over a long term. If the store of value is fairly 'deflationary' (i.e., PMs, land, high value art, antiques and collectibles, etc.) they know that fiat $ will over time eventually lose its 'value' (i.e., purchasing power) relative to these other stores of value. That's why it's called a store of value and not simply a bank account.

That's why Argentinian's prefer to exchange their pesos for $USD, because they believe that it will hold the value (purchasing power) better than pesos.

By your definition, exchanging fiat for anything of lasting value (as opposed to something expendable) is considered "speculation" and "gambling."

andyatcrux

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Why is this even in question, of course BTC is going to be invested in. It is very much a store of value like gold and it will attract investors both in the units of BTC and in the infrastructure. It is a superior asset in that it can be quickly liquidated into other property through a fast and secure transaction. The protocol is undeniably the most promising aspect and I agree that buying a bitcoin will not drive the progress it needs. Yet I don't see any reason that it should not be used as both a currency and an investment asset, other than that many want to see it become stable enough in price to be used as a common currency that stands on its own. I honestly don't think this will happen for a very long time if ever. Will BTC have to be valued against FIAT forever? Not necessarily. This may be where another form of digital currency comes into play, but that is for another thread.

JimboToronto

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You're never too old to think young.

Quote from: Torque on April 11, 2014, 10:50:58 AM

So if I buy gold to use as a store of value, and then sell it later, am I gambling? How about property as a store of value? If I exchange $USD for another currency, hold it, and then exchange it back, am I gambling?

Basically yes, it's speculation if all you're planning to do is sell it later for a profit. It's called land speculation or currency speculation.

If you're buying gold to plate electrical contacts or make jewelry or buying land to live on or use for commercial or agricultural purposes, it becomes more than mere speculation.

Venture capitalists are investors. People who buy stock after the IPO are just speculators.

bitcoinsrus

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Quote from: Torque on April 11, 2014, 10:50:58 AM

Quote from: JimboToronto on April 11, 2014, 10:43:23 AM

Buying bitcoins isn't investing. Unless you're buying them to use for purchasing things, you're just speculating.

Merely buying and selling bitcoins is just gambling like a casino, stock market or lottery.

So if I buy gold to use as a store of value, and then sell it later, am I gambling? How about property as a store of value? If I exchange $USD for another currency, hold it, and then exchange it back, am I gambling?

A good reason that some sell their bitcoin back to fiat is that not all merchants except bitcoin (yet), can't pay their bills or rent with it (yet), can't pay their taxes with it (probably never will happen), can't buy a new car with it (yet), etc.

Hell, if I could use bitcoin everywhere for all my purchases, pay my taxes with it, and get paid directly in bitcoin, I'd never use $USD ever again.

When he said gambling, I think he was referring to the uncertainty of bitcoins future. We don't know if another alt might come, issue with protocal etc. Things like gold and USD will most likely stay and continue to be used.

Torque

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Quote from: JimboToronto on April 11, 2014, 10:43:23 AM

Buying bitcoins isn't investing. Unless you're buying them to use for purchasing things, you're just speculating.

Merely buying and selling bitcoins is just gambling like a casino, stock market or lottery.

So if I buy gold to use as a store of value, and then sell it later, am I gambling? How about property as a store of value? If I exchange $USD for another currency, hold it, and then exchange it back, am I gambling?

A good reason that some sell their bitcoin back to fiat is that not all merchants except bitcoin (yet), can't pay their bills or rent with it (yet), can't pay their taxes with it (probably never will happen), can't buy a new car with it (yet), etc.

Hell, if I could use bitcoin everywhere for all my purchases, pay my taxes with it, and get paid directly in bitcoin, I'd never use $USD ever again. If that scenario came true, I would still hold some BTC in my account (like a savings account)... and that's not gambling to hold a currency.

JimboToronto

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You're never too old to think young.

Quote from: UnDerDoG81 on April 11, 2014, 09:57:46 AM

And that is why btc probably never will succeed. New people get slaughtered by greedy people. It will get harder and harder to attract new investors with these kind of ups and downs.

Investors? Bitcoin isn't an investment scheme. It's a transfer protocol.

Buying bitcoins isn't investing. Unless you're buying them to use for purchasing things, you're just speculating.

Putting your money into developing Bitcoin technology and infrastructure is investing. Merely buying and selling bitcoins is just gambling like a casino, stock market or lottery.

av123

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Quote from: UnDerDoG81 on April 11, 2014, 09:57:46 AM

And that is why btc probably never will succeed. New people get slaughtered by greedy people. It will get harder and harder to attract new investors with these kind of ups and downs.

Bitcoin has always had "ups and downs." To say it will never succeed because of recent volatility misses the point. The key is increased adoption. That takes time.

seriouscoin

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Quote from: UnDerDoG81 on April 11, 2014, 09:57:46 AM

And that is why btc probably never will succeed. ~~New people~~ Pigs get slaughtered by ~~greedy people~~ sharks. It will get harder and harder to attract ~~new investors~~ new avg joe with these kind of ups and downs.

FTFY, if you dont the term pigs in Finance, google it.

andyatcrux

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Time will tell the story. Just like it has with online poker, which is illegal, here in the U.S. Just like it has with the banks that have restricted and outright stopped payment for things like bitcoin, even from big names like Coinbase. People find a way and Bitcoin cannot be stopped. Maybe in North Korea it can be, but China is not as closed off to the world as many think. They can and will be able to trade Bitcoin and convert it back to Yuan, even if that means using a non-Chinese exchange and trading currency on FOREX. It can be done. Do people really think that big Chinese investors are going to be discouraged by an inconvenience? The group-think in the West regarding "China" has left me feeling a bit more misanthropic these days. I have no doubt however that some people will make big gains with Bitcoin, even if it means pulling BTC out of the hands of regular people and small time investors. I really don't know if or when this manipulation will cease to be accepted, so I am not buying, just hodling.

UnDerDoG81

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And that is why btc probably never will succeed. New people get slaughtered by greedy people. It will get harder and harder to attract new investors with these kind of ups and downs.

GTO911

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Ban!

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Topic: Huge China Manipulation (Read 2095 times)