Topic: Human productivity (Read 448 times)

In my opinion, it is still very difficult if bitcoin will become a medium of exchange that can replace paper money. It took them a long time to introduce them about bitcoin to people who are low-income and less tech-savvy. Even in my multi-ethnic country, there are some tribes that prohibit the development of modern technology, they are still primitive. And prefer to buy and sell using physical money rather than digital. But this is less of a problem than people who want bitcoin to be a legitimate trading medium.

It has made sending money easier depending on the country where you live and where the recipient lives. While digital payments methods that use fiat as mode of transaction are essentially border-less but fee-heavy and time consuming. Both have their pros and cons and neither one is replacing the others.

I would not say all those terms to be correct. Bitcoin is not the solution for poverty. People who are poor cannot buy a digital device because that is needed for accessing your bitcoins. Poor people cant even get access to continuous electricity supply or even water supply in many countries. Trust, I agree but digital gold - No. You cant compare bitcoin with gold. Gold has its own importance in the market, it is costly and sell-worthy anywhere in the world. Bitcoin still sees a lot of legal restraints in many countries.

For me bitcoin is the best digital payment method. It is not only practical to use but it is also profitable as investment and strong against inflation. In this world economy system, I think holding bitcoin is also profitable like own a farming field, the difference is I don't need to maintain it but just hold it for long term then I get profit automatically. With all advantage that bitcoin has I think Human should be more productive.

The thing is, would the world be able to move forward with bitcoin as an integral part of the economy? I could see it happening, though I'm not so sure whether the people, the governments, and the industries would be able to take the change a step further. Any theoretical situations and assumptions are pretty to look at, but the reality is that in terms of adoption, we are still at a turtle's pace. The cycle just basically repeats, though the manner through which these cycle progresses—in this case gold replaced by bitcoin—are changed.

And if we assume a different situation - we "remove" the value of bitcoin in dollar, and bitcoin, for example, becomes that very world dollar, what happens then? Will volatility occur if the value of bitcoin is already pegged to, for example, the total world gross product? Now, in fact, bitcoin is not much different from, for example, a tomato Its price is also volatile, depending on the work of agricultural companies, the price of fertilizers, oil, weather disasters and many other indicators ...

I see that cryptocurrency is more dominant to make money. To meet daily needs, I think it is more effective when prices are at their peak, so we sell and exchange fiat to buy necessities. and I see it looks equally promising if we invest in this business, rather than waiting for the initial function to be created

this will take many years before large percentage of population will get involved in crypto. and expect that those in the older generation will stay mostly on traditional means of payment system and will not touch crypto. and for them, it is not a loss because they can always live their life without crypto, which is actually true. but other younger generations will embrace this new tech willingly. they will find the benefits that it will bring to their daily life. and yes, maybe, they will categorise bitcoin, as the new digital gold of the new generation.
however, i dont think physical gold will be eradicated in our system, it will always be an integral part of the financial system of every country. there will always be gold reserves in most central banks. and also, we need to consider the vital role of gold in electronics, jewelry and other industries.

I agree with you, asset values change very quickly, of course this is not good for an economy. I prefer the technology that is brought, namely blockchain, this is the one that will bring light to the future. Gold, which is currently being manipulated and regulated by an organization, has certainly become non-transparent and centralized.

digital gold is good name for this one.
people work on crypto, exchange in bitcoin, hold or use it for need.
as far i know, people will make main mission like produce money, more and more. people will sell their digital asset if know its good. than will store some to the bank, and buy asset if the price down as much as he spend for the first time. so, making money from this is more beautifull than trading it with bitcoin.

The author of the topic suddenly saw the light and described a little in his own words the effect of the gold standard, which was in effect until the middle of the last century.Now we will wait for the author to finally see clearly and understand with his own mind why the financial systems of the states of the last century suddenly abandoned the gold standard This is a very interesting topic for discussion and the introduction of bitcoin in this area instead of existing economic policy instruments, unfortunately, will not help, including due to human productivity in the economy.

OP's thinking is a retrospective of how he saw gold evolve in contrast to what he knows about bitcoin.
It is the thought that we must convince those who do not know about bitcoin and that it is time for them to approach the new technology and the freedom that bitcoin offers.
The opportunities are emerging and will be favorable for the crypto community we just have to be patient and stay on board.

It's an interesting way to perceive Bitcoin, as a part of the trading system. But there's one obvious flaw here. You've said it yourself "for rare, unchanging gold", but the same can't be said about cryptocurrencies. That can be an issue if we're talking about implementing crypto into the current system for purchasing goods and so on. On the other hand, nowadays people have learned to take advantage of it and make money, but the problem of crypto circulation within our economical system still requires solutions.

So for you it is the value that makes bitcoin superior to gold? Bitcoin isn't increasing "year by year". Look at the charts. That's a witless way of thinking/portraying bitcoin. Bitcoin was made to be used as a currency. It was made so that people had financial freedom. It wasn't made to make people rich. Stop looking at the value and start thinking about how to make it better so that we can actually use it as a regular currency. Focus on the development and solutions to the current problems and the value will rise automatically.

Bitcoin's volatility makes it a horrible currency. Imagine an economy where you only know how much money you have for a few minutes at a time because the value changes so quickly. Commerce would be inconsistent, the ability to plan for the future would be completely gone because you would never have a reasonable expectation of how much money you'd have at any stage in your life due to the unpredictability of bitcoin's value.

Sorry, but nothing in bitcoin's history suggests it will ever be a usable currency, especially on a global level.

this is the reason we have to accelerate the adoption of lighting network...

transaction fees and transaction processing problems are things that have been discussed in Bitcoin for a long time, using the lightning network is the best option so that adoption of problems can occur immediately.

What makes bitcoin superior to bitcoin or fiat is that its price is increasing year by year,
we can see for ourselves and of course the price can still go up again,
Despite these advantages, there are still drawbacks and investing in cryptocurrencies is a big risk, so it's not easy

I think this problem can be easily solved with accepting zero conf transactions by the retailers. Seriously, who in the right mind will consider cheating in order to steal a cup of coffee? Such small transactions don't have to be confirmed in 10-15 minutes even. You can pay a small fee, just enough for it to not stuck forever, 3-4 sats/byte, maybe. And that's for now, when most popular wallets don't support Lightning transactions. When that changes the problem will be solved completely.

I really don't know what IOU was but money serves the same purpose if you think of it. You farm and change it for gold/money and later you can use it for any purpose.

I myself use Bitcoins but I think online transactions were already easy to make because a lot of payment processors existed for years and decades now. The real problem that Bitcoin solved was transparency and chargeback problems that were always associated with other payment options.

Bitcoin although solves a ton of problems still remains a hesitant payment option because the time of confirmation is usually 10-15 minutes and not every transaction has the liberty of allowing so much time. You cannot pay at a gas station, coffee shop and other places where you don't want to wait.

It might be worth noting that only the very richest people would have owned much gold. If you read "The Richest Man in Babylon" you will see that they generally had tokens in the form of silver or bronze, much like the smaller denominations that you find in several countries today. If you were to apply that to the cryptocurrency world then maybe you should consider "Bitcoin" as the gold, popular altcoins like Ethereum & Dogecoin as the silver and less well known ones as the bronze. It is worth having a mixture because, unlike a fixed precious metal in the real world, we never know if the gold will eventually turn into almost worthless coal and have some silver transform to take its place.

Bitcoin has many advantage than gold or or fiat. if before people exchange what they have for gold and other valuable material to gain more when they invest. In bitcoin is also some sort of investment which in later years you will gain. its decentralized and you can keep your money with sure profit

every result of one's efforts, in the end will be used to prepare savings in the future. everyone wants to be better, more valuable and simpler. now is the digital age, and for those who know cryptocurrency then people
will take advantage of that. but unfortunately everything is limited by regulations and the whales who play the price so that cryptocurrency is something that some parties fear.

I do not believe that productivity could be counted, there are people who get a lot more money not because they are productive but because they are in a business that makes money.

A very simple example that has been given for many years is the difference between a doctor and an athlete, Ronaldo makes more money than almost any doctor I believe, at least anyone you may know, not the ones that may ended up owning the whole hospital. Think about it, a league of football players make more money than your entire nations medical workers, that is not just doctors, that is nurses and reception and everyone else included, anyone who works in health industry, and that is COMBINED.

This is why I think it is not productivity, it is marketability, if you do something silly like work just 10 minutes a day and sleep the rest and you can still sell that to the world? That would be good enough to make a profit. Hence there is no need for fiat vs crypto in that case, nor gold would matter in that case neither.

All productivity is by default human, no need for redundancy. People speak of productivity without a clear understanding of what it means: it is the unit of produce (many times measured in adjusted currency) per hour of work. You can also measure productivity by unit of land or other, but normally is about human work.

Historically, yes productivity has increased as humans have learned to do things better and more efficiently, now we should be thinking less about being productive and much more about being sustainable as a species in the long term. Crypto are a material step in innovation, yet it has to be sustainable.

Interesting. .
Doesn't mean we can't have decentralized wallets and exchanges that work more morally/legally than the centralized wallets and exchanges.
I think network participants could have hard-coded & automated rules (that do not violent the ideals/principles of Blockchain) working in the background to keep decentralized cryptospace safe. A well built decentralized cryptocurrency can even be used to easily check centralized powers and their tendency to be corrupt.

It's very clear that if we talk about bitcoin and gold they are very different,
cryptocurrency prices are very volatile while gold prices are much more stable,
so indeed in cryptocurrency the risk is greater apart from that all the moments of growth from bitcoin itself are highly anticipated and hopefully it can happen in the near future

On August 15, 1971, President Richard Nixon announced that the United States would no longer convert dollars to gold at a fixed value, thus completely abandoning the gold standard. So now Fiat currencies are simply IOU's for debt on a piece of paper or on a coin... because governments are printing fiat currencies like toilet paper. 

Crypto currencies removed the government and private Banks to eliminate their manipulation of our wealth, so now we can deal directly between each other, without a 3rd party controlling our wealth.    (Some people use 3rd party services like centralized wallets and exchanges, so they give back control to governments..because these services are regulated) 

I simply see Bitcoin as Bitcoin, and not as gold as some of you would always say. I feel that the both of them are totally different. I do know that they are both being used as a store of value, but Bitcoin is not the only asset, neither is it the only cryptocurrency, that can be used as a store of value.

There are lots of other assets out there that are being used as a store of value and also for transactions, why are they also not being called another ‘digitalgold’ like some would call Bitcoin? Bitcoin is totally on its own path, and for sure we look forward to more growth of Bitcoin like it is doing now.

Well Honest issue is the transaction speed and fee in which needed to be updated or we will use alternative coins to make it possible.

but as far as the transaction is concern this is the safest for me.

Being digital doesn't always mean bitcoin or crypto is involved here.

The world is slowly changing the ways of payment thru only digital. Much especially during the pandemic where online payment is encouraged as a mode of payment even in physical stores.

Remove the idea that Bitcoin will replace the traditional fiat. Fiat transfers will still dominate the payment system in its digital form.

Bitcoin cannot be compared to gold bitcoin is more valuable than gold the world is moving forward digitally. The skills required to develop the processes used in the manufacturing system have changed drastically over time as labor is less expensive in developed countries much less skilled production work has moved from developed countries to developing countries. More efficient manufacturing, especially precision and high end products are adopted in developed economies technology has made manufacturing more efficient and workers more productive.

Not really!
For most of ancient history and medieval times, farmers either exchanged their goods in barter deals, this extended till the 19 century for some parts of Europe or they would get paid mostly in silver. One as to look at what the roman empire run on and it wasn't really gold, more like silver with bronze and copper battling for number two spot. As for the IOU, that never happened for the average farmer or citizen or anything, the first form of IOU was solely used by merchants and was totally inaccessible to the masses who could barely read and write their name.

The whole thing of gold coins being used when paying for everything in a medieval town is just Hollywood, in reality, it didn't happen. You would see a hundred times more people splitting silver coins into two or four pieces to pay for stuff than owning a gold coin.


You could do that for decades prior to this..
Your oversimplifying things, it's not like you have excess production and in a matter of seconds you can sell it for bitcoins, trust me! I've spent way too much of my life dealing with the farming business and you have no idea what a pain in the ass negotiations over a few cents per kilo is, the speed of payments is your last concerns, securing cheap resources and getting a good price on it are for more troublesome than actual work. Bitcoin is money, if you can't sell your product for money then you won't be able to sell it for bitcoin either and the chances are far worse with the second.
Be honest about it, when was the last time you purchased wheat or meat or eggs with BTC ?

That being said, I don't know why you made the title about productivity.
Productivity has nothing to do with bitcoin, bitcoin excels at transferring wealth or storing it, it won't increase productivity simply because you get paid in it.
It might be like this in the future but at this point, the major path is still goods > fiat >btc > fiat >goods.

Quite true, the analogy of Bitcoin with gold is a completely correct analogy. Bitcoin is a valuable as well as rare currency. In addition, Bitcoin is superior to gold in terms of the ease of maintaining it safely, as well as the ease of transferring it across countries and continents. Gold costs a lot of money and time to protect and transfer while this is done easily. In the case of Bitcoin

Indeed the humans undoubtedly has gone so far from where it was back then. And to this day, innovation happens all over the world in both huge and small scales. Which is why I think that cash will someday also become as something that humans just look back upon and not ever use again because of the "new" ways to trade. But this happening is still impossible at the moment and we may even be dead already by the time this comes to pass. Still though, there are lots of altcoins existing that can serve this purpose pretty well compared to bitcoin. Well, we'll just have to wait and see what the future holds for us.

As time goes by, the cycle in each activity will change. as well as you have analogized above. that we actually utilize technological resources because the times have pushed us to be able to adapt to them. if not, then many things will be left behind, maybe if we don't follow the flow of technology we don't know the ins and outs of Bitcoin and all things related to cryptocurrencies until now.

As digital users with sophisticated transactions, we must be productive based on the realm of positive activities.

and the problem is in the government and their policies that continue to limit our current Bitcoin holdings, thus using tax payments on Bitcoin holdings to some extent. in our country we are still grateful, because last month our country launched its own crypto. it has shown support that gives us a bright future ahead.

I believe that gradually each country will consider Bitcoin and loosen the rules that have long narrowed the movement of Bitcoin in the territory of state authorities.

Sounds nice, but this was all true already before bitcoins. With USD we could already exchange in many countries money for goods, and with USD we could also send money all around the world. Western Union is doing that concept for many years. You can deposit money in your local currency, and transfer it within one day all around the world to another country and withdraw in USD or their local currency. I agree with you, Bitcoin is definitely the digitial Gold of our generations. A young person these days is much more likely to invest into cryptos instead of physical Gold.

Bitcoin has actually made every transaction faster and more convenient for most users. Trading around the world wouldn't be traditional because of its existence. It will be easy for us to invest or buy other stuff by paying online. However, it couldn't replace fiat easily since lots of people still to recognize and learn how to adopt it. I believe that in the coming days, every transaction would switch to using digital currency.

I could see the tune of trade by barter in the op post and just as the scene made, such times of trades have gone and not to come back. The system and society is now highly monitized and that can be the reason there are various means that the society is surviving from gold, paper money, cryptocurrency. Digital marketing and economy is the level of economic interaction at the moment and some government recognise this while some still finding it difficult with moving along.

Take the asset out of the "equation" in your message, whatever it may be, success does not depend 100% on the asset as such but on those involved, the one who worked the land knew the one who had the gold, yes, but in a certain way the parties created a business relationship because there were no other options.

Bitcoin is a very good option to start a new relationship but today the parties involved have several options, therefore it is one of the reasons why the "relay" has not been as efficient as it should have been, but today it is begins to see the light, so there is country that can begin to change the lives of many individuals in their productivity.

You are talking about the initial days of the money system but now a days we have so called paper money which can buy anything and also you can sell anything which has value and get the paper money, of course in future we may have bitcoin as medium of exchange but do we have surplus production of needed things? Lot of factors affecting the productivity rate even due this the pandemic there is huge shock in the supply and chain.

The world is changing as time passes by. Technology is expanding and modernization is rapidly happening over the past years. Sooner or later, innovation would take over most of the countries around the globe.

Before, we mostly use tradional ways in medium of exchange and in trading such as using barter system and buying and selling in physical markets. Now, we already have at hand what we need in an instant due to the use of technology. We can instantly shop and trade online. In the future, most probably more innovations that will lead to betterment of society and way of living of people will be produced.

Hopefully, bitcoin would be exclusive for most people by then, so the majority can also taste the benefits that bitcoin has to offer. However, we must not also degrade and eliminate the usual comparisons to bitcoin people keep on using. Best examples would be fiat and gold. We must keep in mind that these things aforementioned serve their own purposes. I don't really see the need to compare and pit them from one another. Cryptocurrency community can grow and will grow without downgrading other assets and investment vehicles people opt to use.

So true , The world has shown rapid development. In my country, there was only a transaction system called barter or what is called exchanging our belongings to buy goods sold by other people. Along with the development of the era of technology is growing, to the point where there is bitcoin which makes it very easy to transact over the internet without face to face. Which makes it very easy when the world is hit by the covid 19 virus, we can work from home, invest as we like and get results according to our performance. And I'm really excited, especially what will be created by geniuses for this world.

Your facts are valid and it is very understandable that the world is gradually expanding and developing beyond physical farming. Blockchain has made it more easy for everyone regardless of where you are to be able to carry out daily transactions and even gain from your held tokens for daily income with juicy APR across different AMM DEXs. With advancements in technology we'd be thrilled with how everything would be changed and the next stop might likely not lessen the demand for gold but bitcoin demand will be on a high scale.

Ofcourse, Bitcoin has alot of similarities with gold but that doesn't necessarily make it a digital gold.
I actually like the part about how certain people in old exchange their surplus farm produce for gold and then IOU, and back to grain again, right? Is the grain collector (or buyer?) acting as a grain custodian, a grain reserve or warehouse for storing surplus harvest? So, if the farmer decides not to take back grain, he then owns the Gold, right? Or is the farmer simply selling the grain for Gold? Trying to see how sustainable it would be to act as a reserve & collect farm produces from farmers who don't want to struggle hard to sell them. Maybe collect the farm produces abit less than the market price and give the farmers coins.




In regards to the giving to "trusted" persons, If we have such persons in this generation, we will probably not need Bitcoin/crypto


 

I don't think that our norms and beliefs didn't change because I think that it comes together with time, it continues to change. Back then rape was acceptable but that isn't the case now and that's a norm.

I personally think that gold is overvalued today, and Bitcoin is undervalued. But that's me, I realize that most people don't share my views on this. Most people still see BTC as a highly volatile​ speculative asset, not as money of the future. Again, I personally agree with you, Bitcoin is the money of the future, but when this future will come, in a few years, you say? I don't know. Maybe. At least I hope so.

But this part, " We no longer have to work hard"? I don't get completely, tbh. Bitcoin is money, it's not something we can eat or wear. So, we still have to work hard to have things we can be buying with the money.

Well ngl, I hardly doubt Bitcoin would be the only medium alive that can be used to transact via the internet. It's one option, but for the sake of using something they're used to, other people would probably just go ahead and use fiat currencies, digital currencies, or whatever the future has type of currency that would be tied to the government. Not to mention that there'd probably be countless walls that would inhibit the adoption of Bitcoin. Might be in the future, sure, but it's a coexistence with fiat/government that would happen, and not a complete overhaul.

That's right, in ancient times you had to store gold properly so it wouldn't be stolen by thieves. So worried first to save a very valuable asset. However, in this changing era of digital era. Storing large assets is very easy and convenient. transact easier. Only a matter of minutes we can invest, send the amount of money we need right. times have changed. most importantly our norms and beliefs never change

This is what Lightning network can be a solution for paying micro transactions with Bitcoin, it will reduce significant fees compared to on-chains Bitcoin.

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I wonder where you live... Is there no such online fiat or digital banking that you can easily pay anything trough your phone?
Bitcoin is scarce because the supply is only 21 Million around the world, right now it's already mined around 18 Million only 3 Million left.

Bitcoin and cryptocurrency is and will be the replacment for the physical currencies in a world where everything is being digitilized, but if we are talking about microtransactions bitcoin mining fees and transaction time becomes an issue if we want the avrage joe to go to the store and buy his groceries with bitcoin he should be able to and not have to pay double the value of it in fees, and to me that is the road block that is keeping bitcoin from reaching that point.

The world is slowly changing its ways. From the past where farming and mining was physically done as well as trading, now with the rise of the blockchain technology and the success of bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. We've all seen how much innovation has taken place and it would not be surprising anymore if one day we will see bitcoin as an official currency the world is using. Although it would take much adjustments before it could happen, still there is a possibility and everyone is hoping for that while others are not. We have our own reasons why we don't want bitcoin to become exclusive for everyone.

If world still carries electricity hubs in the future then I am sure we can work out this strategy of exchanging currencies. (Just a thought, Global warming you know).

Obviously there is no asset like bitcoin to re-structure the economy in the future. For now Fiat ain't going anywhere because it is solid works for all kinds of human population in the world (age, modesty, developments etc).

In fact many of them don't know bitcoin yet, some of them don't trust it at all, some of them know it but don't wanna risk it!

For bitcoin to be as solid as Fiat, it will take time to make first official exchange through government.

Bitcoin has many good advantages over the real gold though it does not mean that gold is going down as an investment vehicle as it is more of a store of value and a safe haven with markedly less volatility. This can be the reason why Bitcoin is called as the money of the internet because anybody can use the said coin online - and payment to anyone with Bitcoin address can be made fast and cheaply with no need for third-party intermediaries not unless you choose to. Of course, as just another man-made invention Bitcoin is never perfect and critics of it are the ones usually pointing us to its "dark" side.

In the past, people farmed and exchanged the surplus grain harvested in autumn for rare, unchanging gold. Then give the gold to a trusted person in exchange for his IOU. When you finish eating your own grain, you can exchange the IOU for gold and then exchange for grain.
Now and in the future, we will replace the surplus production with a rare, trustworthy and unchangeable Bitcoin, and it can be quickly exchanged for the product we want in any corner of the world. We no longer have to work hard to carry these gold and IOUs.
 In fact, in a few years, I often imagined how to send money conveniently on the Internet. After thinking of Bitcoin, I found that Bitcoin, which has solved scarcity, trust and immutability, is money itself, and it is digital gold that is easy to use.