Topic: I got SCAMMED by bitbox.mx!!! (Read 12825 times)

ok, my bad. got my money back. case closed. i won't bother you guys on this thread anymore!

Yeah, op stop being a bitch.

Could you post your real name in here? I can't be arsed to go all prism on you right now because it's so early and I'm not up to my level of caffeine and I need to add you to my little black book of people never to do business with. Thanks.

I don't believe they are scammers. They don't have the experience yet and have bugs but they are very legit or try to be. I got everything.

I had to mark the payment as "fraudulent" with my bank. Got my money back. Also filled with the BBB (not that I think it will matter a lot), also looking for other agencies to file with.

Hope these scammers are brought to justice soon!!

Well they pay. Stop being a Bitch and give them documents. Obviously something set off flags about you. I deposited $1000 without documents.

Problem here was, unless I've misunderstood, that they first accepted the payment, and then asked for ID.
This makes no sense.
If ID was required, they shouldn't allow you to pay first, they should have first asked for the ID, and once they received it they should have given the user the payment address.

I got my btc. I suggest op provide documents they want.

as a guy that likes to search out scammers and shame them.

i am afraid to say bitbox.mx is not a shady scamming company.

infact if you search fincens website
http://www.fincen.gov/financial_institutions/msb/msbstateselector.html

and search 'bit' in the company name and search all states there are only 2 businesses with Bit in their company name that have full MSB licences for all US states.

bitbox being one of them

because they are fully licenced they have to BY law set up strict policies and money (dollar) control processes. which they have laid out in their terms and services.

by customers not conforming to these terms, makes the customers in breach of the rules.

no where in law does it say that customers should be refunded automatically if being investigated as part of fincen guidelines/ company handbook. otherwise wouldnt paypal, banks etc require warrants purely to freeze accounts. no!
MSB can freeze an account for any reason deemed high risk.. which strangely enough includes, but is not limited to receiving a warrant order from a court. it may also include other items such as account holder is on a government watch list. received information from a third party, or even simple matters of suspicious amounts.

so in short they are not scamming you by asking you for ID. they are simply following the rules, which most customers are not use to, due to the fact that customers have become too comfortable with other non-licenced companies relaxed or lack of policies. thus thinking that no policies is the norm. which infact is not the case

this is both a good thing that bitbox is fully licenced, which means they have the experience, training and understanding of how to handle money(dollars). but also the bureaucratic nightmare of government, which bitcoin customers want to avoid.

Just wanted to re-repost this. 

Just wanted to repost this.

To quote a very wise man:

Well I've gotten most of my 9.9 btc out. Took 8 transactions so far trying random amounts. Still 1.2 stuck.

/facepalm

Where's the "scammers tried to help me, I didn't listen" meme when you need it?!?

Same here, they are a SCAM!

Can't withdraw BTC, keeps saying withdrawal limit!

BEWARE!!

AND they allow you to use the same token numbers for a while allowing replay attacks!

Hmmm, that is true, it isn't normal. I'll think about it some more, but it does partially seem like an over-reaction.

There is no requirement for MSB collect ID before returning funds from an incomplete transaction.  However you are asking someone to disprove a negative.  The regs for MSBs are publicly available you claim the law requires them to "hang on to" = "steal" so provide a cite for the reg requiring this activity.

As someone who has attended BSA training I will save you some time.  There is no requirement, no obligation, there isn't even the right for a company to "hang on to funds".  The company can refuse the transaction at which point they are required to return the funds.  If the company believes the transaction is suspicious they are obligated to file a SAR.  If the company knows ID will be required they are obligated to collect that PRIOR to starting the transaction.

The company asking the client to report the transfer as fraudulent with their bank in order to have funds returned should set off some alarm bells.  Does that sound "normal" to you?

Requesting ID and giving the money after ID is provided in order to not break the law (if you just give and take money, even after they file a support ticket, it's still breaking the law if you don't follow the proper procedures) =/= stealing.

Are you insane?
Do you think there is not a law agains you holding my money?
Like, in, I don't know, theft?

Either there is a specific clause claiming you can hold my money, or you are breaking the law.

There is a law? Wait, where?

{{citation needed}}

{{citation needed}}

It's against the law for them to violate the law (well, we knew that already, didn't we?). There is no law against holding your money if you don't give them ID.

Now that I have my money back, I can lol @ your comment.

In my defense, I should have the right to refuse to accept the ToS and NOT get my money confiscated. The whole "shitstorm" was based on an idea as simple as that. Was that wrong to assume?

In Bitbox's defense, you've made a massive shitstorm and stirred it up. This looks like it could've easily been fixed...

So, finally, after a month long exercise, my bank FINALLY managed to get the $500 back from BitBox.mx.

WARNING to anyone doing business with BitBox: Read the ToS VERY carefully, because if they CAN screw you, they WILL screw you!

The reasoning behind mx was "Money Exchange" (that and .com was taken).  They have nothing to do with Mexico.

They are actually based out of the University of Michigan!

Not sure what the deal is with the .mx domain...

I get that part. I'm wanting to here the legal side of it

What about Mexican AML laws? That site claims to be Mexican at least.

No they aren't.  Period.  Please cite the FinCEN reg which requires a company to steal the assets of a client if they don't verify.

AML requirements are for TRANSMISSION.  If you return funds it isn't transmission.   If the company feels the transaction is suspicious they are obligated to file a SAR (suspicious activity report).  They are obligated to file this EVEN IF the client verifies after the fact.  The mere presence of suspicious activity obligates the SAR.  Nothing allows a company to seize assets of clients.  Nothing.  Seizure of private property requires a warrant and is done by law enforcement with the authority of a judge not by a company's internal policies.  Has the OP been served with a warrant (like in  MtGox case?)?  No.  Then any seizure is unlawful.

Take the classic example of Western Union.  Alice wires money to Bob but Bob doesn't have or want to show ID.  What happens?  Does WU just keep the money?  No that would be called theft of client funds. Alice can pickup the funds up.   I

What the fuck?  This is still being chewed on?  Seriously?  This stupid ass OP needs to contact his bank and tell the fucking truth.  Truth being he is uncomfortable with the terms . He nor the site owner probably expected this to happen but it did.  Now I highly doubt it was an automatic freeze.  I'm sure considering this is a mom and pop style money exchange someone had to physicaly lock it.  But that doesn't mean it was a scam.

If the OP transfered that much money out of his account I'm going to assume he has money and does treat his central banking system with respect.  Thus giveing a little leverage to go down in person and play stupid/victim and have this all taken care of within a matter of a working day or two.

In my frank opinion if this waa a scam more people would be in the same boat.  But it's one hard head out of a grip of people. You also have to remember the longer you wait to do a reverse the harder it becomes to get it done.


----Short form----
You did not expect this to happen but it did.  You are uncomfortable and wish to keep your privacy.  Talk to your banks service manager.  Tell them you invested in something and it became more then you could chew and have nothing to show for it.  Get your money back and use another exchange median if you still want btc

Which laws would these be? is it not country based?

If you refuse to verify, they actually have everty right to take your money. 

They are violating laws if they DO NOT verify you.

The previous 2 posters must be 14

100% Agreed!

Still they have no right to keep your money, hope you find a way to get it back, best of luck!

You need to remember that companies like this will often ask for personal documents and information. You need to read the T&C before you agree to something, plain and simple.

Xbox and I don't often agree on stuff, but THIS!

If you don't want to do business with them, fine, but they didn't take your money.  You gave it to them and you have the right to go get it back anytime you want.

And yes, Dwolla just asked me for KBA ID last week.  I was more than happy to oblige.  They sent me an email with a phone number and I gave them a call.  After a few short minutes with a rep and him directing me to a link on my dwolla page, I had a verified account and access to all of my money.  Whole process took about 10 minutes.  It would probably take you that long too if you just gave them a call and talked to them.  See how easy that was?

And picture of me with a shoe on my head... now THAT'D be an interesting KYC request!

As i've stated before, I have no idea who bitbox is.  But why not just drive to your local bank and request an ACH reversal?  Or give them a call and not give them info.  It seemed like they were very willing to work with you but you didn't want to work with them.  One has got to start wondering why at some point in time...

And we probably sound alike because we are both using the same sort of thinking skills known as logic...

You are using  bank account.  They want to make sure you own the account.  They are protecting their ass, it dont matter if they send to the original bank account or not, the have KYC shit they have to follow, or end up like Dwolla.

How the fuck else are you gonna verify if not ID?  A goddamn snickers wrapper with your name on it, in a picture with a shoe on your head?

I have clearly stated that MY money could either be reversed from the bank account it was sent from or could be mailed back to my address on file via check. I don't have any problems VERIFYING anything as long as it doesnt involve bitbox requesting my passport/state id/bank statements.

If you've read the thread, all I'm against is giving my personal information to a shady start-up like BitBox. Theyre more than welcome to come visit me if they would like to verify who I am.

On a side note, you sound a lot like one of the BitBox guys I talked to. Out of curiosity, are you associated with BitBox in a any way??

Instead of giving them  a phone call (what, 20 min at the very, very most?) or reversing the ACH (including time to drive to the bank and back, maybe an hour?) this guys has been going on for days and days to try more and more convoluted ways of getting his money back.

Something smells fishy here.  Perhaps he didn't call them or give verification info because he can't?  Maybe he registered the account with a false identity or maybe the verification was triggered not as a random spot check, but as a "for cause" investigation?

OP, 

Sounds to me like you are realty enjoying the negative attention.  You have talked to friends lawyer friends and received some solid advice on what to do.  Yet you ask in not so certain words. "Should I write a letter and keep this on going for three to six months?". No you made your point and learned a lesson about reading ToS agreements when it comes to your money and

You made a comment about PayPal.  In the event they flag your account you are aware this same shit occurs right?
PayPal gives you the optio to verify accounts with photo ID or a proof of address.  And if you are uncomfortable giveing that infomation. Oh welk you don't have a usable PayPal account

I have personally met the founders of Bitbox.mx and can assure you they have no intention of scamming anyone.  Sounds like Bitbox is trying to cover there ass so they don't violate any Fincen regulations and the OP is being unreasonable.  I assure you if you just provide them the information they requested or give them a call you will get your money back.

JESUS OP, ALL YOU HAD TO DO WAS VERIFY.


PRETTY HARD TO PICK UP THE PHONE WHEN THEY TRY TO CALL AND VERIFY ITS YOU, ISNT IT.

GTFO

Thats a helluva lot more work than just reversing the ACH!!!

At this point, if i were bitbox.mx, I'd take your US Dollars, burn them to a crisp and send you the ashes in an envelope. Then take the real Dollars I slyly exchanged before I burned the fake monopoly dollars and buy the best Mezcal I could find and drink to the stupid Americano. Arriba, abajo, al centro y pa dentro.

I was talking to a few friends, and heres a technicality:

BitBox has already admitted they have my money. If I simply refuse to do anything and send them a registered letter asking for my money back and they do not comply, doesn't that make them illegally holding on to my money??

TOS can't violate existing laws.  For example I can't put in a TOS by using the service you agree to transfer all property to xyz corp and then go into court and say "see he agreed give me the deed to his house".  A company can refuse to do business but they can't refuse to do business and "hang on to" another persons assets.  The honest and clear thing to do would be for the service provider to have client complete any requirements first and then accept funds. For example if the service provider is worried about ACH fraud they could send a random small amount of funds to the clients account to verify it.  If they need any docs they can design the site such that the client can't send funds until verified.  

Nothing in MSB regulations requires or even allows a company to just keep client funds.  The purpose of AML is to prevent the TRANSFER of suspicious funds not to deprive criminals of them (note not saying the OP is a criminal just pointing out the purpose of AML programs is to prevent not seize).  Seizure of assets is a law enforcement activity pursuant to a warrant by a judge.  The company has no authority to seize funds of clients under any circumstances.  If funds are returned then there is no transfer. In the event of a "suspicious transaction" the proper procedure is to file a SAR with FinCEN.  If the company had completed mandatory AML training and had a written AML compliance program as required by a MSB they would already know the proper response.  Companies doing stupid shit like seizing the property of another person is why money transmission is so heavily regulated at the state level.  State regulation and licensing has nothing to do with AML, it is about protecting clients from illegal actions of companies.  Illegal actions like seizing without due process the property of another person.

I mean you are a logical person, obviously if was the case that a company could just keep funds based on vague terms of service it would be a good way to turn a profit doing nothing.  Sorry before we can complete this transactions we need a copy of your DL ... now we also need a copy of your utility bill ... sorry we also need three personal references ... sorry we need your SSN and written permission to access your credit report .... sorry we also need a notarized copy of your high school diploma ... what you are refusing to comply well we will just keep these funds then. 

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&SID=017335056cf96e754794b9fe7336e17c&rgn=div5&view=text&node=31:3.1.6.1.6&idno=31#31:3.1.6.1.6.3.5.8

I can't tell if you're sublimely sarcastic or just didn't read the thread.

Sorry to hear about bitbox.mx scamming you. Justice is needed for sure, maybe a major crack down.

Well if bitbox intends to use reversal for fraud as a method of returning funds they won't be in business very long.  After the first half dozen fraud reversals their bank will close their account without appeal.

I guess it depends on the bank.  Mine lets me do it with a phone call, but I have to talk to someone at the branch and not just someone in the corporate office (like I have to call the local branch).

But in the end, to be fair, it was your fault for the hold up.  It was you who refused to give them a call and who refused to provide them the info they requested.  I still don't know why you didn't just give them a call to sort it all out?

Called my bank, and you are right! ACH reversals can be made!

But I'll have to go to the branch in person, fill out a couple of forms, and wait ~10 business days to get my deposit back....

I still blame BitBox for all the wastage of time, and holding up of my money!!!

Why not give them a call?  If you really don't want to give them that info, they have given you the option of calling them and they will help you reverse your ACH.  (And yes, ACH's are reversible, I have done that myself).

You are being very stubborn here and it seems that they have given you a few options to get your money back, but it is on YOU who is refusing to do anything to get your money back.  Sorry, but the real world doesn't work that way.  You can't just snap your fingers and expect things to happen.  Call your bank to initiate an ACH reversal.  Or call them to have them help you with it (it will probably go faster this way).  But in any case, sitting on your butt isn't going to get you your money back.

sure, just don't send them an amount you can't afford to lose. try them out for yourself and let us know

Never heard of Bitbox until now- in the Scam Forum of all places.

I think I will check them out.

Looks like any publicity really is good publicity, huh?

so i talked to an attorney friend, and he says that they can't keep my money with this BS reason. If theyre so worried about money laundering, they are required by law to either hand-deliver or mail a check back to me, but they can't just hold on to the money indefinitely....

Why would i send my passport/bank statement/tax returns to complete newbies?? Its not like they're mtgox or paypal... they're just an anonymous company who would probably sell my personal info to someone in romania!! For crying out loud, their own ToS says they can "disappear" at any time they feel like it and won't be liable to return any money!!!

People make things so complicated and cause a shit stir over nothing.

Send them the details they requested, and you get your $$ back.

Dont give them the info, and you lose the $$

It is 100% in your hands.

Seriously!!  

I'm also not sure why they're so secretive about their actual physical mailing address.. they just wont provide that to me!

In any case, part of BitBox maybe based out of the University of Michigan. I'll be contacting the University on Monday, and sending out emails in the meantime. I'm sure the University of Michigan wouldn't want to get dragged into this mess by these scammers!!

These newbs are on bitcoinscammers.com also!! Hopefully people will wake up and stop getting scammed!

No, thank you. All you guys have been doing is making false promises and holding onto my money. Even PayPal has more self respect. I'll be talking to my bank directly.

I understand the Angelist post got your attention. I'll keep putting the word out about how you guys operate.

1) We found the transaction to be suspicious through our own internal due diligence
2) We reached out to you to give you a chance to verify your identity via email or talk to us on the phone
3) You refused to verify your identity or even talk to us on the phone about the situation
5) You subsequently vandalized our AngelList page.

You are fully capable of requesting that your bank reverse the ACH transaction(http://banking.about.com/od/howtobank/a/ach-payment-fixes.htm). We will not initiate a new transaction because that puts us, and thereby all of our users, at risk of being scammed.
To be specific if we initiate an ACH transfer to you to refund the money you deposited, you can subsequently reverse the transaction that you initiated.

I would like to see you get your money back. I would be more than happy to walk you through the ACH reversal process over the phone. You know how to reach us.

Dear Sean,

Please explain the following email then:


You guys clearly saw the chance of scamming $500 and you went for it. As I said, I will make sure I get my money back from you or at least make sure the whole community knows how you guys do business.

On a side note, you ToS states that BitBox can at any time cease to "exist". This seems like a very standard fraud scheme. Once you determine you guys have enough of peoples funds, you can simply disappear. According to your ToS that would be legal, but I'm sure the US legal system will disagree....

As most of the bitcoin community knows by now, FinCEN has been pretty clear in defining the obligations of a virtual currency exchange, which BitBox falls under the definition of. Those obligations are reflected partly in our Terms of Use (which you must agree to in order to create an account). Part of our obligation is to do our own due diligence in preventing fraud, money laundering, and other illicit activity. We also do this in preventing fraud from being committed against ourselves.

We noticed something off about this transaction, which prompted us to take further action to verify your account and that is why we requested you to send in your verification documents, which you have plainly refused to do. We also have received an ACH deposit which we do not normally accept (rather than a wire transfer), which is capable of being reversed.

We are eager to help you resolve this problem, so please give us a call.

.

I understand... now, whats the best way to get my money back?

Going through an attorney is going to cost me time/money... but if I do get compensated, it'll be worth it to get these scammers what they deserve!!

You agreed at the moment you sent money to their service. This is how Terms of Service work.

I don't agree with the ToS. They can close my account for that, but they can't keep my money indefinitely (nor for any amount of time - calculating interest rates soon!)

Yes. Read the ToS you agree to before you agree to it.


https://bitbox.mx/terms-of-use

So, when Dwolla/MtGox stopped working, I started searching for alternatives, and came across this: BitBox.mx

Heres how they scammed me:

- May 28: I created an account and wired them ($499). On the website they promise the money is credited within (2) business days, so I tacked on extra fees from my bank and sent my payment express.
- May 30: BitBox receives the funds.
- May 31: I receive an email from them asking to "verify" my account by sending in my passport/bank statement/etc.
- Jun 3: Still no sign of funds, I refuse to send any other information and demand my money back.
- Jun 5: BitBox refuses to refund my OWN money or credit it against MY account, until I send them more of my personal information
- Jun 5: I ask for their phone number and physical address so I can file appropriate cases.
- Jun 6: I get an email with no mention of any physical address, and the following shady email:


So, my attorney has instructed me not to talk to them on the phone, and this Jordan guy flatly refused to REFUND my own money back to my bank account. The scammers clearly know there is no way to "reverse" a bank transfer from my own account.

I'm probably out of $500, but I'll make sure these guys can't scam anyone else. Its such people who bring instability to the bitcoin eco-system.

Any suggestions?

Thanks!