Topic: I need help understanding what trans people feel.... (Read 1256 times)

This is a very interesting topic and I will definitely watch the shows listed above. It may be because you are looking for more "scientific" research, but it surprises me that nobody has suggested watching The Danish Girl (film) yet.

IMO, as long as there is no universal truth, the way each individual sees the reality is what determines the gender of the ego, which may not coincide with the physiological one. The trans phenomenon may be labeled as "contra-natura" but the same happens with many other human behaviours that go against our primal instincts. Our capacity to use our imagination (comes from "image", seeing pictures in our minds) to shape our reality is what differentiates us from the other species, and my two cents is that it is in the core of the transgender raison d'être.

As a subjective topic, the general consensus is determinant on whether this disclosure is accepted or rejected in society. BitPotus talks about an agenda, and it may be possible in some western countries, but remember that there are still many others where these people are killed also, so the plan to encourage these people who want to choose their reality (gender) for commercial or political reasons is, to me, the lesser of two evils.

There are quite a few decent documentaries and series on the topic, The one on Frontline answered more to your questioning (enquiry) and didn’t go into the “lifestyle” portion (two different topics that people too often intermingle). Yes Disclosure is currently on Netflix.

Not stupid at all, it says something about you to simply ask maybe you’ll gain some understanding or realize you couldn’t possibly; however just as you see in responses above, having a genuine conversation online would be a rare moment indeed and it would take someone strong enough to be that vulnerable/exposed along with not wanting to defend their very existence.

It’s courteous of you to post the trigger warning...yeah most already know what’s coming ;-)

Some of those stats are still relevant and discussed within the transgender community; to whatever end each person wants to comment on them also says as much about them.

That video looks quite good, I'll have to take a look at that show on Netflix if it's out.

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I updated my OP as I'm not as stupid as I was back then in my questioning now and know a lot more about it (through research and social interactions). It seems to have been a well covered topic over the last year (or I've just been sniffing for it).

And I can imagine many transphobes were in the Whitehouse a few weeks back .

https://youtu.be/uIuS-48tSpE.       (Growing Up Trans in America: Frontline)




 https://youtu.be/ysbX6JUlaEc.  ( Disclosure on Netflix —preview)

They choose to assign themselves to the gender they associate with for them to properly express themselves and be their true selves (align to their gender identity and expression). I think that they choose to go through such a tedious process of transitioning because it helps them be comfortable with themselves and deal with their gender dysphoria. Trans individuals get offended when they get misgendered because it means that you don't acknowledge them. It can boost their ego A LOT. I get that its hard to understand having lived your whole life as cisgender but its that important to them.

Just for perspective, trans people dont choose to do transition or assign themselves a different gender just for the heck of it. Who in their right mind would voluntarily or actively choose to be ridiculed and experience discrimination their whole lives?  

The way I think about it is that:

1. A man cannot biologically become a woman just as a woman cannot biologically transform into a man no matter how much surgery/pills/hormones or
    whatever else they take.

2. There currently seems to be an agenda that's running rampant in this world where deviant and unnatural behaviours are being pushed hard onto
    society in an attempt to normalize them. And if you state simple biological facts, like JK Rowling recently did, then the outrage mob will label you as  
    transphobic and try very hard to cancel you.

3. I personally think that transgender people are on some extreme spectrum of body dysmorphia, though apparently the correct term to use seems to be
    gender dysmorphia.

4. I don't have any issues with them and am quite happy to let them be. Where I start having an issue is when you have a small extreme core that try to
    cancel anyone that doesn't share their views.

5. I also think that transgender athletes should not be competing in women sports. It's really unfair towards real biological females.

6.

7. If Jesus is not coming and helping us out, then the next best thing would be:
    
    

You do realize that  if the he-she or she-he  was a fraternal twin, and one of the embryos died and the  other embryo absorbed it  the survivor would have mixed male and female genes.

This has been detected in some people.

hermaphdrodites also exist.

So science has found many people that are truly mixed gene people.

The issue you have is  not have they think or how they feel. The issue you have is are they crazy or liars.

The facts are simple science has yet to find a test that can fully detect if the he-she or she-he  has mixed genetics.  

My issue is lets say  the person is mixed gene.  The surgery does not work.  You can not make babies

if you convert male to female.  By that  you do not make eggs and have a womb so why are we doing false surgery.

I would have zero issues  taking some pills that truly let me be a woman.  I have a curious mind.

I would even have a kid the natural way that a woman does.  If I like it more then being a man I would stay a woman if not I would take pills to reverse the treatment and go back to being a man.

All fantasy  since that treatment is not available.


My issue is not how a person thinks or fell about their genitalia.

I don't care what they think or feel about it.

It is their own body.

I do care that doctors are willing to fuck those bodies up with fake surgery that does not do a real change.

There are ONLY 2 sexes so they're just trying to confuse there 🤣.


If anyone's interested I found another topic, this one's on defining women: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.53988126

Well I've just filled in a "tell us how we did" page on the McDonalds web site. Towards the end they asked me about my sex.I wanted to say "very satisfying thank you", but that wasn't an option. Instead, I have to select from a few tick boxes. The first were Male, Female and Binary, and there were a few others such as self-determined or something like that. I always thought that binary was something to do with digits, but I guess this isn't the meaning in this case.

Fits my idea a 15 year old male with other issues autisic will very likley suffer terrible sexual frustration.

get conned by a bs shrink into blocking puberty.  this relieves the sexual tension.  the kid decides to do full surgery.  it works and the kid become a decent looking girl.  has a ton of sex from say 17 to 30.

then the sex gets old they sit down and say what have i done to myself and kill them selves.

instead of reassigning them to be a girl via drugs and surgery i would suggest Bangkok and study to be a he she.  no surgery no drugs just makeup and acting out.


it would be reversible if they tire of it.

look at bruce jenner he still likes girls and last i read he kept his johnson so i don’t know how to classify him.

he does not really fit label.

It's only a question of time when Social services are going to take your children away from you because they played with dolls and you refused to send them to sex reassingment surgery.

Sounds paranoid?
It's already happening.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6817935/Autistic-boy-taken-care-school-reports-parents-refusing-allow-sex-change-treatment.html

The biggest and probably longest study we quoted a couple of times already from egalitarian Sweden came with those 18% successful suicide rate where if you look at the graph most kill themselves after around ~10ish years from surgery and reaching its peak at around 15 where the mortality rate goes into freefall. Over 80% reported feeling better after surgery. Something changed after 10 years. Only a small part killed themselves immediately post op (you can see a dip in the graph) but the situation is relatively stable the first years after the operation. Everything falls apart after 10 years.
18% of them commit suicide after the operation and the biggest numbers from 10-15 years after the operation according to the egalitarian Swedish longitudinal study with the biggest size recorded yet.


So do the surgery 20-25.

Docs do a good job.  10-15 Years of solid fucking and sucking with the well made body.

you would now be older with a womans body which often means it is harder to get sex.

thus fuck it may as well be dead.


a willing 20 year old guy may have trouble finding people to have sex with.

a willing 20 year old girl may find having sex partners is easy to do.

ten to fifteen years and it gets old.

the only issues i have is the pronouns some come up with are so non descript that it actually provokes drama by forcing people to ask more about it

for instance get rid of the 'they' 'them' pronoun.
and find ones of true relevance

i know things have become derogatory to use nowadays but.. 'he-she' or 'shemale' were amptly descriptive and useful for born male now female.. and the opposite

even things like female with female genitals that wants to identify as male=tomboy

as for the people that pretend they dont want to be defined . yet go out of their way to cause drama by dressing a certain way which would indicate their desired identity. to then argue and fight and moan if someone brings it up or  doesnt use their prefered pronouns of 'them' 'they' 'strawberry' 'helicopter'

it actually becomes derogatory to say. 'them' in many cases.
infact someone went up to a person of coloured skin who was trans. and when using the term 'them' the coloured person created drama about how the other person was creating racial drama and started to go on a rant about how the coloured person was being persecuted and treated like their slave ancestors and not being defined as a human.

it all becomes rediculous drama provoking crap when people are trying to pretend to be something they are not.
im all for people wanting to be unique and open to identify themselves as how they feel. but dont just be a drone lemming following some social style craze of the 'them' 'they' pronoun. it dont make anyone special if you start conversations with 'i  identify as the pronouns...' especially if the pronouns are not unique or descriptive
(by this i mean the trend followers. not the actual transcommunity)


im male. born male, will always be male and i like women. thus i say me.i.he.him (the traditional pronouns)
but just to rebuttal those trend folower drones who just want some attention seeking of a latest craze without understanding whats really going on biologically, psychologically... i tell them i identify as a helicopter, chopper and swirly whirly bird... and just see them try getting those pronouns into conversations without messing up
just to prove a point

National Transgender Discrimination Survey (NTDS) 2015

If you read the thread, you'll find at least 2 sources on transgender self-reported suicide attempts and 1 on post-op suicides in Sweden.
One of them is the first result.
https://lmgtfy.com/?q=transgender+suicide+41%25

Source. I mean, a credible source for that stat.

Are you serious? You did that, not me.
And when I pointed out obvious flaws in your statements you say you can't compare 2 studies with different samples you brought up  

Do you seriously believe older people make up a bigger proportion of tattooed people than young generations do?
If 25% of the total population is tattooed, I'd assume the numbers are simmilar or larger for younger generations.
Even if they were double less, it's still not comparable to the transgender tenfold case, it would be only double.
You know what I'm speaking makes sense but you don't want to make sense, you want to be aligned with your belief, so you purposely make me look up stats although you know they're true.
If you're going to force me to look up everything that's common sense, I will.

https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/news-polls/more-americans-have-tattoos-today


Other sources

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2008/12/09/tattooed-gen-nexters/

36% of the population of the 18-25 age bracket compromise 57% of the young suicide victims.
This puts them at 25:100 000 odds of successfully comitting suicide.

That's the same to you as 40% of A group attempting suicide and 18% succeeding?
These are 4:10 for attempted suicide and 2:10 for successful suicide.

25:100k and 2:10 is not comparable.
Transgender people need help.  And not the enabling type of "help" which causes an 18% successful suicide rate post operation.

There's no "agenda"; that's just how books are published, regardless of whether the mainstream publishing industry is good or bad. Why should trans authors do things differently just because they're trans?

Lol the capitalist agenda 🤣... They should start publishing stuff themselves and not relying on huge publishers to do it for them.


Acc the mathematicians don't make money on their books because people publish better resources for most things online...

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Library's a good idea though, I'll have to check their catalog. And thanks for the link.

Entitlement much? I suppose mathematicians aren't getting anywhere either by charging upwards of $200 for books about their subject. If you want educational material that someone else has worked hard to produce, sometimes you have to pay for it. What's wrong with that?

Huh? No it isn't. Or at least, it's not just a selling point. It's no different from anyone else with an unusual characteristic or uncommon experience writing a book about it. Certainly nobody is putting themselves through all that just to get an interesting story they can sell for profit.

Or go to the library...

Or watch a TED talk...
https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/this-what-it-feels-like-like-to-be-trans-jvinc/

It's funny, I was trying to look for if any trans people had written an autobiography and there's a load of books on them wanting equality and they all seem to be under copyright....

Like OK, but you're not getting anywhere of we all have to pay $20 to work out what's up.... Its clearly just a selling point for them...

The article says 21% of suicides by young people are tattoed.

So saying 25% of the population including old people has tattoos is an irrelevant statistic.

Because it includes old people in that statistic.

Suicide deaths young people with tattoos = 21% of deaths by suicide.

Young people + old people with tattoes = 25% of  the population ≠ 25% of young people have tattoos.

It also does not mean that tattoos cause suicides (or that tattoos prevent suicides.)

So rather than a cause - it is a common activity by people more prone to suicidal thoughts.

Other activities like violent death due to homicide, drug overdose and accidents can also alter suicide figures. Some "accidents" and "drug overdoses" are actually suicides. Incarceration can prevent suicides. So if a particular group is incarcerated they may be less likely to have the opportunity to suicide.

21% of suicides have a tattoo ≠ 21% of tattooed people
You're saying it doesn't matter a quarter of the population has tattooes when saying tattooed people compromise a fifth of the suicide cases?
Will address other things later on.

Transgender people are only a very small portion of the population.  Giving a very small sample to compare with the general population.

The fact that they want to change their gender means they have a serious change they want to make.

Without looking into other details such as previous mental health and other issues (mentioned earlier) you cannot draw a conclusion from the statistics quoted.

Without looking into all the additional factors any conclusions from statistics are not accurate.

1) Other factors have not been considered.
2) The data sets between the compared statistics are vastly different.



You can't use the statistics quoted by one study and compare it to another study if the sample is different.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10837885

The 21% refers to young people only. So a reference to 25% of the population as tattood is irrelevant because it does not mention the amount of young people that are tattood or even how "young person" was defined.

The same article also states "Fifty-seven percent of young white suicides were tattooed".

So if you want to misquote statistics. A young tattooed white male is more likely to commit suicide than a transgender person.

If those transgender people were all tattooed white males and transformed to females:
1) they may have reduced their suicide risk.
2) delayed committing suicide to later in life.

Without further study none of those statistics are useful in determining whether transitioning was a factor in their suicide.

I'm sorry but you're the one terribly misconstruing the points here.
You bolded a part that had nothing to do with the first part.


Comparison between 25%-21% -> 19%


Comparison 4.6-40-> 900%

If I were to missconstruct your words like you did to me I would say
You claimed 21% of suicide victims had tattoos and that's the same as 18% of transgenders killing themselves?
21% of people who killed themselves compromise 25% of the population (which is actually a net negative and not a positive)
40% of a one group attemptting to killthemselves is the same in your eyes.
But I didn't say that because I think that wasn't the point you were making. At least I hope so.
I was obviously comparing a tenfold difference between your example with this one.


They didn't say they're suicidal.
They said they attempted suicide.
This comes from a far-left organization.


Probably because prison&gang subcultures are disproportionately engraved with tattoo cultures.
Why does it matter? The difference is statistically irrelevant.

You don't think if 4 out of 10 people attempt to kill themselves and 2 succeed post-surgery. That's not an increased risk of suicide?

I literally have no idea what your point is.
There's a study that very slightly connects tattoes with violent crime (gangs,prisoners..) and there's a study that proves 4 out of 10 transgenders attempt suicide and 2 succeed, and that's supposed to prove something to me?
I'm sorry, I really don't know what I'm supposed to see here.


The biggest and probably longest study we quoted a couple of times already from egalitarian Sweden came with those 18% successful suicide rate where if you look at the graph most kill themselves after around ~10ish years from surgery and reaching its peak at around 15 where the mortality rate goes into freefall. Over 80% reported feeling better after surgery. Something changed after 10 years. Only a small part killed themselves immediately post op (you can see a dip in the graph) but the situation is relatively stable the first years after the operation. Everything falls apart after 10 years.
18% of them commit suicide after the operation and the biggest numbers from 10-15 years after the operation according to the egalitarian Swedish longitudinal study with the biggest size recorded yet.


First of all. Sue Donym isn't a legitimate source on anything.
Besides being obviously biased (https://medium.com/@sue.donym1984) she doesn't have any qualifications on the subject and her opinions shouldn't be quoted, she's not a scientist or a researcher.


Okay, so that's a different study. But the results are almost the same.

You're saying transgenders don't know the difference between self-harm and a suicide attempt. I don't agree with that, I think we should believe people who say they tried to kill themselves because it's associated with a sense of shame and therefore very hard to admit.

Why that doesn't add up is also that there is one suicide for every estimated 25 suicide attempts. (according to the CDC), which includes self-harm.
Given that the CDC has correct data, and 18 out of a 100 transgenders commits suicide after surgery, how many of them actually commit it?
I'd say a lot of them try to hide it because of stigma associated with it and a feeling of shame&weakness generally associated with suicide.
But okay, even if we assume that's true.

How do you explain the 18% successful suicide rate among post-surgery transgenders?
How many suicides do you think end up unsuccessfully? You previously stated some do suicide attempts as a cry for help.

If you say only 40% including self harm attempt suicide and at a 25:1 ratio of succesful suicide attempts it would mean the operation severely damaged their mental health forcing every fifth transgender into suicide.


The problem is in your head, not in your hand. Wouldn't it be healthier to be cured and keep your hand  

That is terrible misuse of statistics.

Suicide and attempted suicide is not the same.

A filled out survey and death statistics are vastly different.

Anyone can fill out a survey and say they are suicidal. No clinical check up. No prodding about underlying issues.

Why does the study on tattoos describe it as "associated with markers of high-risk behaviors".

While the transgender study describe it as "increased risk of suicide".

See the problem ?
Transgender also is  "associated with markers of high-risk behaviors" such as prostitution and substance abuse.
https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/Transgender-Suicide-Sept-2019.pdf

As well as unique issues:

Experiencing discrimination or mistreatment in education, employment, housing, health care, in
places of public accommodations, or from law enforcement

Rejection by family.

Rejection by religious organisations.

Experiences of violence


The following is really revealing:


Why not ?

If you are going to cut your arm off with an axe or have it safely removed by a surgeon - because it causes you mental pain. Why should I stop you ?

The surgeon is the safer option.

You're seriously considering supporting people in their wish to cut off their limbs?


25% is tattoed.
Research you posted


That's a really slight difference from the general population, which could be attributed to various subcultures surrounding prison&gang population that include a lot of tattoos.

The general population attempts suicide at a rate of 4.6%, the transgender community attempts it at a 40% rate.
That difference is not slight. It's a 9:1 ratio compared to the 1.19:1 of the tattoo community. 19% increase and 900% (while transgenderism isn't attributed to certain subcultures while tattoos are).


Normalizing transgenderism will create new transgenders which will eventually become depressed and in vast amounts even commit suicide.
Children are talked into transgenderism on a daily basis.
I can substantiate this very well if necessary.


I have posted the same data from National Center for Transgender Equality. I'm positive they're not right-wing.
Their hompeage has a picture that says 'Equality for Transgenders' and the name is National Center for Transgender Equality.
https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf

The article you posted is pure propaganda. Almost nothing in it is fact.

1. Not right wing
2. He is the LGBTIQ+ people

So unbiased

Anti LGBT? He's a transgender who went through sex reassingment surgery!


Debunked?
We just read through longitudinal research papers that prove male-to-female post-op suicide risk increases and female-to-male remains the same.

*inserted CNN clip*
 

40% of them attempt suicide. You don't believe that's a mental problem?

Why did you think a transgender person who went through sexual reassingement surgery is right-wing and anti-LGBT?

I found one short documentary that includes the person that's described here. You should watch it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pxxBQm114k
There's a lot of people that think surgery is a bad idea and sex can't be changed.
The media calls them transgender haters even when they ARE transgenders just because it doesn't fit their narrative.

It would depend on the circumstances.

How severe are the symptoms ? - How severe is the loss of limb ? - Is the person capable of making an informed decision ? - What is the risk that the person will remove the limb themselves ?



A case-control study of tattoos in young suicide victims as a possible marker of risk.

Tattoo frequency and types among homicides and other deaths, 2007-2008: a matched case-control study.

Are Tattoos an Indicator of Severity of Non-Suicidal Self-Injury Behavior in Adolescents?

https://www.advdermatology.com/blog/statistics-surrounding-tattoo-regret


Just because something may have a negative effect on some people doesn't mean that other people should be disadvantaged by it.

Also statistics have to be seen in context. The statistics I have seen do not rule out other causes.

"Attempting suicide" is also not the same as "committing suicide".

Attempts are often a cry for help. It could also be due to bullying, discrimination, financial strains, depression, PTSD or many other factors - rather than re-assignment regret . It also doesn't show whether the re-assignment prolonged the will to live.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

The study also mentions AIDS and doesn't mention their background (e.g. former or current sex workers). It is also a possible side effect from the hormone treatment or other medications.

In countries where euthanasia is accepted by the majority of the population - suicide to prevent suffering (e.g. from the symptoms of AIDS) it is possible that it accounts for some of the suicides.

The 40% statistic is something that has been touted by right-wing activist Walt Heyer

Not all transgender suffer from gender dysphoria.


https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria

Discriminatory experiences associated with posttraumatic stress disorder symptoms among transgender adults

Would you apply the same logic you mentionted to Body integrity disphoria?

I don't believe anything that doesn't cause harm to other people should be banned - by law. It's up to the people to choose.
But people who care about that person shouldn't allow him if it's within their power (using conversation, advice, support etc.)
People don't kill themselves because of tattoo regret (not usually at least). Chimps are racist as well, but I doubt they mutilate their own genitals.
We just crossed a research that stated that male-to-female post-op have an increased risk of suicide than before the operation. Why would we encourage them to do it?

People can have silicone implants to enhance their appearance. Body modifications, piercings and tattoos.

Why would you not allow people to re assign their sex ?

Any body modification comes with the chance of regret. Just google tattoo regret.

But just because some people regret it doesn't mean it should be banned or not be done.

Psychology is not a pure science. The DSM manual(Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) changes over time based on opinions. Homosexuality was a disorder in the DSM-3

One could argue that terrorism, extreme sexism, religious extremism or extreme racism is a mental disorder - yet that is not categorized in the DSM except for Hyperreligiosity

I imagine saying something along the lines 'counseling and psychotherapy would help transgender people,not reassingment' would cause quite an uproar and is therefore disincetivized.
You can always use the data that is allowed.
You can definitely find something even in the research that's focused on reassingment

Yeah I can't find any other source here. Apparently universities are turning down opportunities to research it for fear of being labelled politically incorrect. Or somethin glike that.

I didn't say the data you quoted is incorrect, I said that you shouldn't quote the article. They are news reporters and not scientists.
You should of quoted the paper because reports aren't a legitimate source on the issue.
The research they quote - is a research and is legitimate, the description of it may be, or may not be.
Will look it up and edit this post in a couple of minutes.

Edit:

Source:
https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf

The Research and Development Directorate of the NHS Executive is quoting death by suicide. 18% die from suicide and 40% seem to commit it (succesfully and unsuccessfully). It's relieving to see less than half succeed.

If you look at the post op data
This is the biggest and longest study yet I believe
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885



You can see after the first year they probably do feel better etc. but after ~10 years their mortality rate is almost in free-fall (mostly suicides) and diverges on average some ~13% from the control group.
If the attempted suicide rate in the US is 4.6%, and the average succesful suicide rate among the trangender community is 18%.
We can assume the 13% divergance rate from the control group bears no relevant statistical improvoment on the preoperation period.
It obviously does alleaviate some symptoms of gender dysphoria as the participants report they do feel better but their mental health doesn't improve at all.

I'm after finding where your 40% figure came from.


Although maybe you've just plucked it from thin air now and assigned it to that.

I'm not sure what info you're looking for exactly?
But using a search engine to find scientific literature and statistics is a way to go.
I mean you can use the media to find research papers but avoid reading any info they've written about it other than stating facts.

So provide your own from a legitimate source?

You're making a mistake using the media to get scientific information.
Most of the information you get from the media is biased, cherry-picked or even flat out lies.
I can support this claim if necessary with a whole new thread.

Besides the obvious suicide rates, irreversible genital mutilation, and trans regret this "you're female if you feel like it" sets a precedent.
If you can feel like a different sex and compell other people to oblige to your feeling, how long until other things become obliged because someone feels like something? What happens when I start feeling 15?
Why would we discriminate against 40 year olds who feel 15? They are 15! And you're just discriminating against them.
Sex with minors isn't illegal if you're 15.

Tbf, it's hard to work out what's fact and what's fiction:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth

(the guardian are fairly left leaning, more left than I am but still seem to not be too far gone as to be overly biased)...

I know of no cure that causes a 40% suicide rate with irreversible genital mutilation and even those surviving it regretting taking the cure.

How many transgenders killed themselves 50 years ago when their delusions weren't enabled?

Unless you're a friend or know them well, you should probably meet them with indifference towards it. Much like how you'd be indifferent to hair colour, eye colour...

It's up to their friends and surgeons to decide whether they're of sound mind to make their own decisions. The only thing I can think of as being similar is someone with a physical disability being offered a cure when they're 20, would you take it or not? It'd often depend on the person. I'm pretty sure things as simple as having an extra toe are considered a disability of sorts too so... [it's obviously a lot different but I couldn't think of anything].

We can't because that proves they aren't women.


I don't assign your gender. I'm not the genetic code.

People have Body integrity dysphoria.
They feel a desire to cut off their limbs.
Would you argue we should support them?

I can identify as president of the United States. I'm still not the president.
It's unhealthy and counterproductive to enable people in their delusions.

Biology.

No, biology.

These are chromosome abnormalities which are biological -they're chromosome abnormalities.
It's not the same as Body Integrity dysphoria and Gender dysphoria where the persons chromosomes don't have abnormalities.
They have a disphoria.

Hermaphordites are also biological hermaphrodites. They don't have a disphoria.

Neither would I. I would ridicule "cis" people who support it because they're the ones at fault so many people mutilate themselves.
Transgenders are not at fault here, they suffer a disorder called gender disphoria.
No sane person would ridicule a sick person.
It's your fault if you support that. You took a part in it.
Just google sex change regret and look at post surgery suicide rates which are in level of statistical error from presurgery suicide rates.
Nothing changes with the surgery. And you enable it.

Yes. It's very difficult.
It's very difficult wanting to live without limbs when you have limbs in Body integrity disphoria.


It's because they don't accept themselves. And that's why they need counseling and psychotherapy. Not some idiots that say, go cut off your dick, you're going to be female and everything's going to be okay! Except they won't be okay and almost 40% will commit suicide - and they'll never be able to return to their pre-op state.

Looks like iluvbitcoins advocates assigning gender based on "born with" equipment. Regardless of other considerations like:

Feelings, identity, external looks, hormones, chromosome abnormalities (Deletions, Duplications, Translocations, Inversions, Insertions, Rings,Isochromosome ), hermaphrodites etc..





It doesn't affect me but I wouldn't ridicule others over it.

Often suicides are about how they are not accepted by others. It must be difficult to want to be different than what you have been supplied with or how others want to treat you.

Well that went a little off topic by the end hmm....

I just can't picturea n idea of splitting up the camps so much between men and women. Statistically speaking, men are probably stronger and more intelligent (in certain regards), and women are more creative and better with organisation - but there are still many different outliers and confusions to this rule that it doesn't seem logical.

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Also on your other topic of conversation, your penis doesn't become a penis until a few weeks after conception.... So you too have grown one of you're a biological male.

Can we not put trans people in their own category for sport?

Don't be transphobic, women have dicks too.
https://www.newsweek.com/can-woman-have-penis-gender-identity-myths-explained-1093051

What's incorrect about the first post? Please don't say you can remove your uterus  
Estrogen improves bone density, that's why older women get osteoporosis when they don't produce as much.
Females already have a lot rarer bone density than males and then they replace their estrogen with testosterone further increasing this difference.
Really healthy!

And sorry, taking hormones to prolong your clitoris doesn't make you male. Biology makes you male.

If Fallon Fox is a woman according to you because he flipped his dick inside out, took hormone therapy and had a boob job, how did 'she' break  her oppononets skull?
Isn't 'she' supposed to be female now?
I mean, can hormone therapy and a scalpel do the job?

Here's the person with a broken skull and XX chromosomes

“Twenty years ago, if a man hit a woman so hard that he sent her to the hospital, he’d be in prison. Now he can get paid for it.”

You know, I avoided dignifying your earlier post with a response because of how laughably incorrect it is, but I just have to ask... How exactly is someone who was born a woman and doesn't have a dick supposed to flip it inside out?

You didn't use to be a woman, you were a woman and you are a woman.
Flipping your dick inside out doesn't change that.


They can't accept themselves for who they are but they want to mandate us to accept them for who they'd like to be.

This mostly seems to be the result of cis people being inconsiderate assholes, for example by asking unprovoked questions about their genitals and medical history. You wouldn't start a conversation with a cis woman by asking if she's had a boob job, would you? And while it's not really fair to stereotype all cis people on the basis that many of them are assholes, you can't really blame trans people for doing so when this is the sort of shit they have to deal with on a regular basis.

Not really. Nobody can explain it to you, since in most (nearly all?) cases trans people can't even explain it to themselves. A trans person doesn't know why they want to be a different gender any more than a straight person knows why they want to have sex with people of a different gender, or a gay person knows why they want to have sex with people of the same gender; that's just the way they are, and if they had any idea why that was the case, they would most likely prefer to change that rather than going to the not-insignificant trouble of changing gender.

That's the benefit of cis privilege. If, on the other hand, you were a trans man among a group of people who don't know you used to be woman, and the person calling you "she" is doing so intentionally in order to reveal that fact thus potentially causing you embarrassment or worse, you may indeed particularly sweat it. When trans people complain about people using incorrect pronouns, this is what they're talking about. They're not talking about simple mistakes or slips of the tongue ("We shall fight the oppressors for your right to have babies, brother. Sister, sorry.") which they're totally understanding of and don't really care about.

EDIT: Typo

There are people who suffer a disorder that makes you want to cut off your limbs.
We wouldn't tell those people do whatever makes you happy, you go girl!
We don't enable them, we tell them they have a disorder, we don't help them pay to get their limbs cut off.

Transgenders cut their dick off and turn the skin inside out so it resembles a vagina.
41% of them commit suicide after the surgery.
Why do we enable these people so they end up killing themselves?
Why are we such horrible human beigns?
Because we feel open and progressive about that?
Human life should be more important.

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Other than human life and suicide taking testosterone doesn't make you male. Additional T makes your bones less dense, and males by birth already have denser bones, which females will have even rarer because of the additional T. You still have XX chromosomes, different bone structure and a womb.

Taking estrogen and breast implants doesn't make you female either. You still have XY chromosomes, you can't bear children, you can't breastfeed, you can't have periods, you're physically stronger, have denser bones and different bone structure.

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The reason for this is because they're used as a tool.
You can't have antifacism if there's no facism.
You can't fight for someones rights if everyone has guaranteed rights.
There needs to be facism and oppressed in order to justify your own existence. They wouldn't have a purpose other than that.

I was going to go to mainstream. Social. Media with this but I'd probably just end up getting labelled as a transphobe so I'm wondering if anyone can help me here.

I have quite a few issues with the idea of having lgbtqa+ people and trans people as a separated group as I don't think it does anything to help anyone with the divides... It just seems to separate the two communities as I see it and a lot of non cis people (especially on social media) don't seem to like cis people (or at least its how they come across).

The idea of transgender people for sets out a bit of a problem in the fact that it either forces people to come out as a different gender than what they want to be because they might think they seem more like that gender. We're also taking things far too scientific, it's not like there's only one version of X and one version of Y - there are many different versions of both chromosome types so gender in the way a lot of people view it should be more fluid and thus pronouns to me should link to biological sex instead...

But can anyone explain to me why people would want to assign themselves a different gender and what they'd aim to achieve from that?  I'm a cismale but if someone called me a "she" I don't think I'd particularly sweat it (especially if it wasn't in a condescending way).