Topic: If only we had a crypto version of Ebay that could save us the hindrance of fee (Read 676 times)

The closest solution to your problem now, is a decentralized marketplace called.. OpenBazaar https://openbazaar.org/ but unfortunately this never really took off, because I think the project is simply too complex for the general public.

The developers normally over engineer a project and the final project seldom address the "user-friendly" needs of the end user and OpenBazaar is one of those project.  

In any way, I hope someone listen and they create something that are actually user friendly enough to compete with eBay and Amazon..  

If PayPal finally add the Cryptocurrency features in their platform buyers can now buy from merchants participants, and it will open merchants to Cryptocurrency holders and buyers, we don't need Ebay for this, it's good if we have out own Crypto Ebay and it could possibly start if merchants finally accept Crypto through Paypal.

Okay, I accept your rant. But I was a bit surprised because in the link I provided in the last post I read that OpenBazaar had addressed this criticism using IPFS and "search providers" from version 2.0 on.

Well, the system is open source and can be forked. That's not a criticism to you, but this way it becomes open for others who want to improve it.

I don't know the merchants' perspective, only the perspective of a consumer sometimes searching at OB and then closing it again because there are not enough products in my region. I run it generally from an old machine from 2013 with 3 GB RAM. It performs not lightning fast, but not slow enough to not be able to be run permanently, even if I run it in parelell to other heavyweight applications.

What I wonder however if there is no command line app which could be used by merchants to minimize resource usage. Technically that should be no problem, OpenBazaar is normally working very similar to BitTorrent.

PS: Yes, there is a command line app, openbazaard. I can't say anything about its resource usage though.

You seem to be a merchant, do you have negative experiences that you're so upset?

OpenBazaar 2.x, they write, should use IPFS to mitigate that problem. But anyway, if I were a professional merchant I would ensure that I'm always online. It should not be so difficult, either have a cheap low-energy device (old laptop, Raspberry Pi ...) running 24h or pay a cheap VPS (which you'll have if you're selling on other platforms, too). If IPFS is used IPFS pinning could also be an option.

It is also not impossible to develop a search technology to at least find stores that are currently completely offline and sharing the list (via website or even via a P2P app).

Of course, most data on P2P apps need to be mostly public. But something seems to be possible to be hidden via Tor.

I'm sure LN could be relatively easily be integrated into OpenBazaar or other similar platforms. But it seems this would accentuate the problem of vendors needing to be 24/7 online and thus they currently don't want to add it.

This only applies to centralized platforms which follow the eBay model closely, like Bitify.

In decentralized platforms like OpenBazaar, the infrastructure is maintained by the users - it's a P2P program which each user is running on his computer. The only service which requires a fee typically on OpenBazaar is fees for the escrow service. But these can be lower than typical fees on centralized platforms, because there are no infrastructure costs, and there is a free market of escrowers which compete, so the owner doesn't have a "monopoly privilege" on the platform. OpenBazaar however is struggling with development funding, but that is because they adopted a for-profit model which is not really convincing. If it was a pure nonprofit open source project, funded by donations (e.g. from shop owners, which save fees using the platform), then it should do well.

There has to be fees when you're being provided services. Who is going to pay for the platform, the returns services, the maintenance, maybe you want the platform design to develop as time passes and offer new functionalities. Without a business model, you don't really have a way to fund all this. If you look at Ebay annual reports on the stock exchange you will see the huge amount of funds taht are being spent.

It will takes some years for that to happen, right now Paypal will integrate Cryptocurrency in their platform and will allow access to their millions of merchants, I think it's better this way that a big company integrate Cryptocurrency than build one, the hardest thing is starting out with Paypal everything will be set up..

I said that if Ebay may decide to add cryptocurrencies, other attempts from competitors would turn into a huge, huge loss. As we see, PayPal decided to integrate cryptocurrencies. Right now you can only buy virtual bitcoin but in 2021 you'll be able to fully use crypto service.
Btw bitcoin will still be taxable because according to IRS it's treated like property.

Have a look at this article: Will PayPal’s crypto offer turn into a tax nightmare?
And at this: How Taxes Will Complicate Crypto Payments On PayPal

While you can save on the deals with the already given discounts during a sale (maybe festive sale or patriotic one), you would not prefer to go for crypto when there are not enough vendors who are willing to discount you in terms of crypto. Those people who are/are not willing to sell are the ones who make/break the entire online shopping industry and considering the fact that crypto does have fees and these companies can't go for btc due to its volatile nature where its price may go anywhere the next day as well as the fees also spike with it (and I truly believe that this is the only thing that has kept BTC stabilized, to keep the fee levels intact).

If I could remember correctly, there are some projects that have tried to come up with this market place concept but most of them are dead, and some other struggling to survive.
I think the reason why starting this Kind of project will be a bit of a hassle is because fiat is still very much dominant over crypto and the moment, imagine the users paying in crypto for the item they purchased, and the owners of the platform going through the hassle of converting crypto to fiat in order to pay for the maintenance of the platform.
More projects like this will have a higher chance of success when crypto becomes much more dominant over fiat.

I agree a one-layer system may be enough for most transactions with a small-to-medium amount of money involved. However, the problem here can be clearly selective scamming - the untrustworthy escrower would wait for people getting confidence, and in a bigger transaction he cooperates with a scammer (or he stages everything himself using different identities, which isn't that hard in decentralized networks).

Thus I believe that if the "Level 2" authority has some stake in the system - like it seems to be the case with OB1 with respect to OpenBazaar, because if OB1 was known to scam OpenBazaar customers or to be too lax when selecting moderators, then their sources of income might dry up - then it can provide some additional value to the escrow system.

Regarding the Bitcointalk trust system, take into account Bitcointalk has still a centralized authority which acts as a "moderator of last resort", even if the trust system itself isn't moderated directly, the staff can ban those who abuse it too hard. In a P2P app like OpenBazaar it's much easier for scammers to infiltrate such a system (this is at the end why we need Bitcoin and a "money transfer web of trust" - imagine Ripple without a blockchain - isn't enough).

I agree however that the additional information which are possible in Bitcointalk's system (like a link to a "reference", risk taken, amount etc. ) would also be very useful for OpenBazaar and similar sites.

We're faring alright here at Bitcointalk without people having to verify their escrow each time they win an auction, mainly because the escrows here can be trusted. So it's not like having a trustworthy transaction with one layer escrow is not practical.

Having a service that moderates escrows won't be very helpful because these Level 2 verifiers may themselves be untrustworthy which pauses you to bring Level 3 verifiers to check them, and so on. Then it becomes a bureaucracy just to use escrow.

A trust and flag system like the one we have here would be very useful for decentralized auction sites, instead of a rating system, because it would let them detail the trade they made, how much risk they took, how soon it was delivered, etc. Then decision power shifts to those users who the community trusts the most, and those on their trust lists.

Trolling trust feedback can be for the most part stifled by not having a discussion forum for the auction site for trolls to interact on.

The problem in this case is obviously the same as with Amazon: fake reviews. OpenBazaar, as far as I know, already has a customer review system. But it's hard to imagine it cannot be abused, if the seller can simply sell goods to himself.

Maybe it could help if the customers are also reviewed by the sellers - while this can also be abused, it would be easier to spot "circlejerk" networks of identities constantly reviewing each other but never receiving a review from outside of that circle. But even in this case, selective scamming could be a problem.

The kind of postal service I have in mind would be a regular company, which would be responsible to protect the data of the customers (buyers and sellers) just as all these services are. Basically, the additional service would consist in something like a photo being taken of the content of the package by the postal service, which would be shared only with buyer, seller and escrower (obviously, both must agree to that). The postal service itself wouldn't be involved in the payment process so it would not be obliged to register as a "financial institution".

Obviously this limits the usage to legal and "unproblematic" goods, and it can't detect all sorts of scams (e.g. sellers sending defectuous electronic devices) but it already would offer more security than a simple tracking code. And it could be combined with e.g. the seller providing the option to return the shipment in the case the buyer doesn't like it (well, in theory in this case the buyer can scam the seller, but then again, this service of taking a picture of the content of the package would make some scam attempts (e.g. returning an empty package, or an inferior good than the one originally sent) impossible or very hard without being detected.

I think that having one built offshore would be a good idea. A truly open platform where people could list and sell anything.

Your estimate is so far from reality it brings into question the competency of your leadership.   :/

that's a good point which i wasn't thinking about, whenever i think about decentralized marketplaces i see them from the perspective of the seller/shop not the buyer/customer. @stompix pointed this out to me in another topic.

in any case i think this issue could be partially solved by a rating system. for example an old shop that has been around for a long time could have reviews and points given to them by their customers. it could even be stored in a blockchain (maybe a side-chain even). although it is not a fix but it can lessen the severity of issues.

i think that requires some sort of record of such trades which also goes against the privacy that people may seek while using a decentralized marketplace instead of a centralized one. this could also bring regulations and taxation and with that limitations.

This will definitely happen, more solutions are coming at a speedy rate, in the near future, there will be one that will address this challenge. Crypto is still young but we are making progress.

Unfortunately I see a second problem with these decentralized marketplaces, and that is trust. Many people like it when they can rely on a centralized authority when something goes wrong with a trade. On OpenBazaar, there is the option to use an escrower (moderated payment), but if the escrower (moderator) fails in assess the situation correctly (e.g. if a vendor presents him fake proof about an item that was sent) or is untrustworthy, all they could do is to call the police - and depending on the good they purchased, or privacy reasons, they may not want to do that.

I read from a service from a business called OB1 who "verifies" OpenBazaar moderators. However, even totally trusted people can be fooled by good scammers. Thus, in reality what would be needed would be some kind of insurance for the escrowers, but this is currently (probably) unrealistic.

Thus I think there is a niche for e-bay like crypto marketplace websites like Bitify. A big problem however could be - depending on the country they operate - that these sites must register as a financial institution if they offer escrow, or limit themselves to provide means of communication.

PS: Just got an idea I may develop further: One of the problems of decentralized marketplaces seems to be the communication with the postal service, because it's difficult to prove a vendor didn't send the correct item. What about a crypto-friendly postal service which offers an option to verify the content of a shipment? Problem may be that such a service could be costly, but what I have in mind is that the vendor should pay an additional fee which he gets back if the buyer doesn't request dispute resolution ... Is for now a very immature idea, maybe it already exists.

This can work well with advanced escrow system on a decentralized marketplace.
 If you have a contract with your seller and the goods turn out to be different from what the seller claims in the agreement, you lay complaints with proofs on the decentralized marketplace. Qualified arbiters go through the complaints, if you have a good case, you return the goods and automatically get a refund.

It's a good start, but we need something that will cater to multi coins holder these marketplace is great but they only cater to specific coin we need something that can accept popular coins in the market and as big as Amazon, those on DappRadar are unheard of or not popular marketplace, somebody has to start this.

People can't understand one thing: What you want and think is amazing, doesn't mean that others share the same thoughts and opinions. Most people can't understand that for example if Ebay doesn't implement cryptocurrencies, there are a reasons behind it and at the same time if someone hit market where there is open monopoly. Anyone can enter into market but no one can beat the giants. If someone wants to enter in this market with cryptocurrencies, it would cost a tons of money and then, the same action from Ebay (implementing of cryptocurrencies) and this business will dive and lose billions.

What kind of fees do a crypto version of Ebay would be able to save? Do fees change when you pay with Euro over USD? Or GBP over USD and Euro? Or take any other national currency. I want to remind you that Bitcoin is a currency, different from traditional ones but still a currency and it's very easy from governments to set fees on it the way they wish and in terms of fees make it absolutely similar of the situation we have right now on Ebay.
Cryptocurrencies aren't magical things or spells.

I agree it would make life easier for merchants and though there are a few options, it would be nice to have more available as competition always leads to better services.

I've had a couple of goes at starting auction sites, both online and in real life. The big problem is getting sellers to submit items, as they are not likely to get high prices until you have a lot of potential buyers. I used to put my own items in, and accept that they would not realise top prices, but it involves a lot of work.

My new Rag St site takes a slightly different approach. I want to introduce wholesale sellers to bulk buyers, and to use Bitcoin for international transactions.

We will have one in the future, we now have a Decentralized Finance this is to level the playing fields and to adopt those who do not trust banking system anymore, it's only a matter of time that we will have a decentralized marketplace , sounds like a good idea once we have both worlds the Crypto community will be competitive both in the financial industry and commerce industry .

I understand your reasoning.  I should have specified I meant in today's environment.  Not too many people will want to start a free project like this.  If they are smart enough to invent, they should also be looking at the uncertain future.  

You can make a decentralized and free version yourself.  Just register a non-profit, and use considerable free resources at AWS ($100,000) to architect the system and decentralize it.  Look for open source/free projects and have those developers work with you.   You shouldn't need to do any coding or spend any money.   But it will be a lot of work to design and build it.

I remembered. It was called bitmit and ran from 2011-2013.
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitmit

not everyone enters this open source and decentralized world with money making as their goal. there are lots of open source projects that the devs hadn't made a satoshi for their work. heck why did Satoshi spend 6 years of his life on bitcoin to give people freedom if they made nothing?
by the way OP focuses on fees, otherwise a decentralized marketplace is a lot more that just fees. it is about the freedom that goes hand in hand with the freedom a decentralized currency offers.

Not really.  I'm thinking why would someone build this just to save you fees if they make nothing?

In addition to other comments, we already have "Bitify", which I believe it's the closest thing to a so-called "crypto version of eBay".
^{Take note: I'm not vouching here (DYOR).}

you are thinking too centralized.
a cryptocurrency oriented marketplace should not be centralized, everything in it should be peer to peer and without any servers or any kind of centralized authority. that means there is no additional fees to be paid to the creator/developers of the project.
i think the closest example of a serverless P2P marketplace is OpenBazaar project.
eBay can not compete with something like that. the only problem is that people aren't currently so eager to see their cryptocurrencies as currencies but rather investments so they are not ready yet.

stop advertising this casino in (almost) every post you make!

We have one already Overstock.com is something where you have an option to become a retailer, you can freely post your items there you want to sell but it is mostly similar to Amazon rather than Ebay. If you want a P2P marketplace I would recommend you trying OpenBazaar.org the last time I check is they have zero fees involve since the transaction happens between the 2 parties they are basically promoting is as some kind of free e-commerce website. Keep in mind that I don't have experience on both websites but I mostly read these websites of being a crypto focus e-commerce website in the forum.

We did have an eBay like site that used Bitcoin.  I forget the name but it was awesome and quite popular.  I believe it was given a notice to shut down by the government. 

This forum used to be brimming with all sorts of awesome projects where people could use Bitcoin and work together to advance Bitcoin use cases.  Unfortunately, now it is full of people who post here just to get paid from signature campaigns.  A majority of those who were building things got chased away by overzealous trolls scarred from falling for scams that take out their poor money management on the innovators who remain and regulators that want crypto businesses to account for the exchange rate at which every satoshi changes hands.

In short, if you want something like this to exist, you'll probably have to not only build it, but have the testicular fortitude to keep it running in the face of vengeful users and trigger happy regulators. 

With over 13,000 employees at eBay, I'm sure they are aware of crypto.  If there was an advantage to their current model to use crypto they would have implemented it already.  And like the previous poster wrote, there are still fees with crypto, and the company needs to make a profit.

I don't think any developer here would spend thousands of hours making an eBay clone if they couldn't charge fees, and the instant it started making money, eBay could add it on easily.

What you want is an auction site that doesn't need to refund/return.

If you had some crypto Ebay you would still have to pay blockchain fees and that can go very high during congestion time, both for Bitcoin and other popular coins.
One more thing that would not work is to way to refund payments and return products, and that is something we see in ebay everyday.
Slow speed would also not be so user friendly.

I'm sick of the fees on Ebay it's become totally unprofitable for some items due to the massive fees. I use Facebook marketplace but that's more for local sales.

With crypto Ebay you could have near zero fees and have a decentralized marketplace model. I know there are things on TOR etc, but I just wouldn't trust it tbh. I can imagine Amazon buying this project one day for more than a billion $ as it would feel 'threatened' by the merely existence of this model and will end up incorporating it into their own business model.

I mean EarnBet (https://earnbet.io) an online decentralised casino has been the latest to solve the problem of wagering via crypto and is operating on the WAX chain currently.
If you are reading this and have the potential to make take such an initiative , please do and we, the Bitcoin community will support you.