IMF urges El Salvador to remove Bitcoin as legal tender

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Quote from: bitmover on January 26, 2022, 07:38:55 AM

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-60135552

So, International Monetary fund demands that El Salvador remove bitcoin as legal tender, otherwise it refuses to give loans to the country.

They are doing so to protect the people, as bitcoin will "bring instability and inflation"

How come a deflationary currency will increase the inflation ? WTF!

they continue, saying that IMF wants to protect the consumers:

They highlighted the "large risks associated with the use of Bitcoin on financial stability, financial integrity and consumer protection" and with issuing Bitcoin-backed bonds.

We don't know what is good for us, but they know it.
[/quote]

It seems a bit like economic blackmail and it's not really the IMF's place to dictate the currency choices of a country in this way. They might attach strings to any future loans, such as not allowing them to be converted into cryptocurrency or specifying that the loans must have a defined end usage with traceability. However we often see that these financial institutions are driven by very old policies, that while they might be prudent and have a history to back them up - are very slow to adapt to new conditions. They should be helping countries to set up their own cryptocurrencies, if they won't support current ones, instead of trying to interfere in domestic policymaking.

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Quote from: Vaculin on February 07, 2022, 04:31:46 PM

Quote from: Flexystar on February 07, 2022, 12:52:30 PM

Quote from: jackg on January 26, 2022, 10:05:25 AM

I'm assuming the recommendation is coming from the idea that El Salvador might use some borrowed funds to buy bitcoin.

I'm not certain on that but if it is the case, it'll reduce the countries chances of paying back debts in the immediate term (for example, if the price crashes).

Fees would probably be the thing to complain about with bitcoin and not inflation but there's potential el Salvador did this because the imf didn't offer them much in the first place.

Certainly prices have been dropped a lot and the same case is in front of them now. I think there has to be well thought plan when El Salvador first thought of going all crypto! They must have had plan for such calamities as they every kid around the globe know how unstable the crypto currencies are. I’m certain that IMF is also trying to be one of the authority who wants to show everyone that they are not in favour of crypto currencies. So they are going all harsh about it and trying to manipulate other through this act of Cold War.

Obviously they have power because they have funds for lending and they will also be partnered by those governments who wish to take down the crypto from face of the earth.

You see the picture here ?

Since IMF is covered by the most of the centralized countries, then it should promote the use of fiat or dollar, and should show opposition on bitcoin or any decentralized cryptocurrency. But in case with El Salvador, IMF has no power to control the decision of a president whether to drop bitcoin or not. But i'm afraid that El Salvador will be deprived for some loan opportunities from other big companies in the future as IMF has all its strong connections to most of the lending companies. Bitcoin may be a big barrier for now, but it can also make a big difference for El Salvador once it will prosper and reach a gigantic price increase in the future.

I doubt that Bukele is going to reverse his decision, the issue is what will do his successor, even if Bukele can win the election again for a second period he is not going to remain in power forever and as such at some point he will have to give the power away to someone else, and if by that time bitcoin is still not strongly established as a coin that is widely used by those living at El Salvador there is a possibility that all what he did for bitcoin is reversed.

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Quote from: Flexystar on February 07, 2022, 12:52:30 PM

Quote from: jackg on January 26, 2022, 10:05:25 AM

I'm assuming the recommendation is coming from the idea that El Salvador might use some borrowed funds to buy bitcoin.

I'm not certain on that but if it is the case, it'll reduce the countries chances of paying back debts in the immediate term (for example, if the price crashes).

Fees would probably be the thing to complain about with bitcoin and not inflation but there's potential el Salvador did this because the imf didn't offer them much in the first place.

Certainly prices have been dropped a lot and the same case is in front of them now. I think there has to be well thought plan when El Salvador first thought of going all crypto! They must have had plan for such calamities as they every kid around the globe know how unstable the crypto currencies are. I’m certain that IMF is also trying to be one of the authority who wants to show everyone that they are not in favour of crypto currencies. So they are going all harsh about it and trying to manipulate other through this act of Cold War.

Obviously they have power because they have funds for lending and they will also be partnered by those governments who wish to take down the crypto from face of the earth.

You see the picture here ?

Since IMF is covered by the most of the centralized countries, then it should promote the use of fiat or dollar, and should show opposition on bitcoin or any decentralized cryptocurrency. But in case with El Salvador, IMF has no power to control the decision of a president whether to drop bitcoin or not. But i'm afraid that El Salvador will be deprived for some loan opportunities from other big companies in the future as IMF has all its strong connections to most of the lending companies. Bitcoin may be a big barrier for now, but it can also make a big difference for El Salvador once it will prosper and reach a gigantic price increase in the future.

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Quote from: jackg on January 26, 2022, 10:05:25 AM

I'm assuming the recommendation is coming from the idea that El Salvador might use some borrowed funds to buy bitcoin.

I'm not certain on that but if it is the case, it'll reduce the countries chances of paying back debts in the immediate term (for example, if the price crashes).

Fees would probably be the thing to complain about with bitcoin and not inflation but there's potential el Salvador did this because the imf didn't offer them much in the first place.

Certainly prices have been dropped a lot and the same case is in front of them now. I think there has to be well thought plan when El Salvador first thought of going all crypto! They must have had plan for such calamities as they every kid around the globe know how unstable the crypto currencies are. I’m certain that IMF is also trying to be one of the authority who wants to show everyone that they are not in favour of crypto currencies. So they are going all harsh about it and trying to manipulate other through this act of Cold War.

Obviously they have power because they have funds for lending and they will also be partnered by those governments who wish to take down the crypto from face of the earth.

You see the picture here ?

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Quote from: lalabotax on February 04, 2022, 07:37:22 AM

Quote from: oHnK on February 03, 2022, 12:39:00 PM

For making BTC as a legal tender indeed much challanges fully, We can't really use it as a main legal tender and replace fiat. The big difference between fiat or crypto, is the regulator.

Sure. It must require big challenges because it is against the world governments and the centralized system. IMF as one of the centralized organizations must be unhappy if more countries adopt BTC as a legal tender. More countries use BTC as a legal tender, which means more countries are probably to be independent. IMF doesn't want this to happen because they cannot regulate world finance again in the future.

This is their main worry, I think the community was surprised by how quickly bitcoin became legal tender at El Salvador, after all it came out of nowhere but we were still happy about it, I think the IMF was also incredibly surprised by what happened, they could not believe that a country did this, so they are fearing that we see a chain reaction and that many more countries do the same, this is why they are so adamant to try to get El Salvador to reverse that law, as they are trying to contain bitcoin before it is too late.

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Well, that could be a problem as I am sure El Salvador is geting more out of IMF than it is out of BTC, at least at the moment. There is no way they would throw that away. Now, removing BTC as legal tender does not mean removing BTC complently. It still might be a crypto heaven and it could be that El Slavador has a more open aproach to regulating crypto.

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Quote from: el kaka22 on February 04, 2022, 11:04:29 PM

Quote from: lalabotax on February 04, 2022, 07:37:22 AM

It must require big challenges because it is against the world governments and the centralized system. IMF as one of the centralized organizations must be unhappy if more countries adopt BTC as a legal tender. More countries use BTC as a legal tender, which means more countries are probably to be independent. IMF doesn't want this to happen because they cannot regulate world finance again in the future.

If you really want to hurt places like IMF and big banks and even big nations by using Bitcoin and making it your legal tender then you also have to accept the fact that they won't help you. Why would they help you or give you a loan when you are doing something that hurts the very being of them? This is why we have so many different situations here people do not understand.

IMF is basically saying that they can't stop El Salvador from using bitcoin as legal tender but as long as they do that then IMF will not give them a loan. That makes sense, if the whole world turned bitcoin to legal tender in all nations then IMF would lose power and they do not want that. There is nothing really shocking about this, if my entire existence dependent on El Salvador losing money during this period and not doing great (because it could be example to other small nations) then I would warn them too.

Honestly, IMF may say what they want to say and propose orders but that won't give them the power to contradict on what's the final decision of the president. And i don't think Bukele is taking all these things selfishly and all for his own advantages, but more on for the welfare of the country. I can see that there is a great challenge now on the side of the president as how he can prove that his decision will work despite of the opposition of IMF, as a lot of countries have been eyeing El Salvador from now on.

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The answer is simple:
1. Because having received an IMF loan, the money will immediately be turned into bitcoin, which contradicts the logic of IMF lending.
2. Bitcoin does nothing to save and restore the economy. Moreover, it distracts from real problems and real solutions. What does hiding problems mean, which means a little later, this problem will "shoot" even worse.
And there is no need to look for global conspiracies - bitcoin cannot really save the economy, it can create the appearance of security, and this is very bad, it's like hiding the presence of an illness from a patient.

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Quote from: darewaller on February 06, 2022, 02:06:25 AM

Quote from: hyudien on February 05, 2022, 02:43:36 AM

Broadly speaking, the IMF does not want El Salvador to be free from the rules they apply to each country to continue to make loans as large as possible and can be binding at any time. Now the IMF's concerns are starting to become clear that El Salvador has shown other countries to be more open to Bitcoin and provide financial freedom. I see it as the IMF's unwillingness that in the future other countries will follow in El Salvador's footsteps and then be able to quickly pay off their debts to the world bank.

As a result, El Salvador achievements have gradually opened up the sector to break away from dependence on money from the IMF.

Honestly, IMF doesn't really "enforce" anything to nations if you ask me, they can't really do that because they are not a country or a region, they are a bank. It means that they can only tell people that they won't loan money to them. Big nations uses this smartly, they could build things that bring in profit or taxes with the loans they get and then use that profit to pay it back over time.

Instead of paying others to do it, why not get a loan as a government and do it yourself? Some may think that is socialistic, but the reality is that we are not building car manufacturers or anything here, it is roads, hospitals airports etc etc which is normal for a nation to do it themselves. This means that El Salvador going against IMF only means they can't get a loan from them, nothing else, if they want to get a loan then they can't do what IMF tells them not to do.

It's pointless of them to demand El Salvador to stop using Bitcoin as legal tender if they couldn't do anything about it right?

A country taking a loan from IMF has to provide collateral actually. Obviously, they want loans not getting paid so they can hold the countries by the neck and still follow orders but if El Salvador gets out of debt what is there for IMF to make them accountable? I'm not familiar with this financial organization but I'm sure as big as they are can do harm to disobedient presidents like Bukele.

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Quote from: hyudien on February 05, 2022, 02:43:36 AM

Broadly speaking, the IMF does not want El Salvador to be free from the rules they apply to each country to continue to make loans as large as possible and can be binding at any time. Now the IMF's concerns are starting to become clear that El Salvador has shown other countries to be more open to Bitcoin and provide financial freedom. I see it as the IMF's unwillingness that in the future other countries will follow in El Salvador's footsteps and then be able to quickly pay off their debts to the world bank.

As a result, El Salvador achievements have gradually opened up the sector to break away from dependence on money from the IMF.

Honestly, IMF doesn't really "enforce" anything to nations if you ask me, they can't really do that because they are not a country or a region, they are a bank. It means that they can only tell people that they won't loan money to them. Big nations uses this smartly, they could build things that bring in profit or taxes with the loans they get and then use that profit to pay it back over time.

Instead of paying others to do it, why not get a loan as a government and do it yourself? Some may think that is socialistic, but the reality is that we are not building car manufacturers or anything here, it is roads, hospitals airports etc etc which is normal for a nation to do it themselves. This means that El Salvador going against IMF only means they can't get a loan from them, nothing else, if they want to get a loan then they can't do what IMF tells them not to do.

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Quote from: paxmao on January 26, 2022, 05:43:45 PM

Scared they are young padawan. Just imagine that El Salvador is successful and manages to bring the country to a level of prosperity and independence from the world financial institutions. Scaring to death that is for the IMF young Jedis.

Jokes apart, IMF sets the rules to get funding, nothing new, the conditions are frequently nasty and tend to punish the lower strata of the population and have stronger effects on countries that have low ability to capture funds in the markets. This is just another example of inherence in internal affairs.

Broadly speaking, the IMF does not want El Salvador to be free from the rules they apply to each country to continue to make loans as large as possible and can be binding at any time. Now the IMF's concerns are starting to become clear that El Salvador has shown other countries to be more open to Bitcoin and provide financial freedom. I see it as the IMF's unwillingness that in the future other countries will follow in El Salvador's footsteps and then be able to quickly pay off their debts to the world bank.

As a result, El Salvador achievements have gradually opened up the sector to break away from dependence on money from the IMF.

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Quote from: lalabotax on February 04, 2022, 07:37:22 AM

It must require big challenges because it is against the world governments and the centralized system. IMF as one of the centralized organizations must be unhappy if more countries adopt BTC as a legal tender. More countries use BTC as a legal tender, which means more countries are probably to be independent. IMF doesn't want this to happen because they cannot regulate world finance again in the future.

If you really want to hurt places like IMF and big banks and even big nations by using Bitcoin and making it your legal tender then you also have to accept the fact that they won't help you. Why would they help you or give you a loan when you are doing something that hurts the very being of them? This is why we have so many different situations here people do not understand.

IMF is basically saying that they can't stop El Salvador from using bitcoin as legal tender but as long as they do that then IMF will not give them a loan. That makes sense, if the whole world turned bitcoin to legal tender in all nations then IMF would lose power and they do not want that. There is nothing really shocking about this, if my entire existence dependent on El Salvador losing money during this period and not doing great (because it could be example to other small nations) then I would warn them too.

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Quote from: macson on February 04, 2022, 09:49:28 AM

Quote from: bitmover on January 26, 2022, 07:38:55 AM

So, International Monetary fund demands that El Salvador remove bitcoin as legal tender, otherwise it refuses to give loans to the country.

They are doing so to protect the people, as bitcoin will "bring instability and inflation"

How come a deflationary currency will increase the inflation ? WTF!

they continue, saying that IMF wants to protect the consumers:

IMF doesn't mean to protect consumers, they just protect their control over people....i really salute the hard mentality that President El Salvador has, fighting the IMF is quite a tough job, their threat is indeed very big but Nayib's trust in Bitcoin is really not in doubt. "long live" president el salvador, hope your country can be strong and continue to survive making Bitcoin a legal tender there.

IMF is backed by the state so it will always find ways on how to control the people to stick with the US dollar and stay away from cryptocurrencies. But then, Bukele tends to be more tough than the IMF as he was never threatened with the IMF opposition to bitcoin, and instead take advantage on the crypto market by adding more bitcoins while they are cheap. I just hope El Salvador can withstand all of these, and when this happens, other countries will start to adopt bitcoin too.

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Quote from: Fatunad on February 04, 2022, 03:43:40 PM

Quote from: Rruchi man on February 04, 2022, 12:12:40 PM

Quote from: bitmover on January 26, 2022, 07:38:55 AM

So, International Monetary fund demands that El Salvador remove bitcoin as legal tender, otherwise it refuses to give loans to the country.

It seems the IMF fears that many other countries are soon likely to follow in the steps of El Salvador. Now under pressure, i hope the president of El Salvador doesn't bulge and remove bitcoin as a legal tender, it will be a big disappoint and set back to the crypto community. In a long run, say the current president doesn't bulge, i hope his successor will be one who shares his current plan to make El Salvador a safe haven for bitcoin, so that there can be continuity.

Too early to talk about continuity yet we wont be seeing the President would pass out anytime soon but its not a bad presumption though and as we can see that the recent deep didnt
really bulge in regarding into their decisions on making it as a legal tender since they are aware with volatility issues or risks of bitcoin in the first place.
For sure this would be an eye opener on some countries on which that a country do able to withstand and didnt really make themselves affected on that
recent deep.

I can see that Bukele is even more determined to continue investing in bitcoin as it has bought recently 410 bitcoins which they add more on the country's previous hodlings. So its like Bukele was not really affected at all if ever the IMF will not grant their loan anymore. After all, the reason that El Salvador has adopted bitcoin as a legal tender is to create progress in the country and when it prosper, there is no need to add more debts anymore as bitcoin will hedge against inflation, and can be a great asset that will lessen the poverty rate of the country.

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Quote from: Rruchi man on February 04, 2022, 12:12:40 PM

Quote from: bitmover on January 26, 2022, 07:38:55 AM

So, International Monetary fund demands that El Salvador remove bitcoin as legal tender, otherwise it refuses to give loans to the country.

It seems the IMF fears that many other countries are soon likely to follow in the steps of El Salvador. Now under pressure, i hope the president of El Salvador doesn't bulge and remove bitcoin as a legal tender, it will be a big disappoint and set back to the crypto community. In a long run, say the current president doesn't bulge, i hope his successor will be one who shares his current plan to make El Salvador a safe haven for bitcoin, so that there can be continuity.

Too early to talk about continuity yet we wont be seeing the President would pass out anytime soon but its not a bad presumption though and as we can see that the recent deep didnt
really bulge in regarding into their decisions on making it as a legal tender since they are aware with volatility issues or risks of bitcoin in the first place.
For sure this would be an eye opener on some countries on which that a country do able to withstand and didnt really make themselves affected on that
recent deep.

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Quote from: bitmover on January 26, 2022, 07:38:55 AM

So, International Monetary fund demands that El Salvador remove bitcoin as legal tender, otherwise it refuses to give loans to the country.

It seems the IMF fears that many other countries are soon likely to follow in the steps of El Salvador. Now under pressure, i hope the president of El Salvador doesn't bulge and remove bitcoin as a legal tender, it will be a big disappoint and set back to the crypto community. In a long run, say the current president doesn't bulge, i hope his successor will be one who shares his current plan to make El Salvador a safe haven for bitcoin, so that there can be continuity.

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Quote from: bitmover on January 26, 2022, 07:38:55 AM

So, International Monetary fund demands that El Salvador remove bitcoin as legal tender, otherwise it refuses to give loans to the country.

They are doing so to protect the people, as bitcoin will "bring instability and inflation"

How come a deflationary currency will increase the inflation ? WTF!

they continue, saying that IMF wants to protect the consumers:

IMF doesn't mean to protect consumers, they just protect their control over people....i really salute the hard mentality that President El Salvador has, fighting the IMF is quite a tough job, their threat is indeed very big but Nayib's trust in Bitcoin is really not in doubt. "long live" president el salvador, hope your country can be strong and continue to survive making Bitcoin a legal tender there.

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Man, being un this industry for years now, meanings behind meanings get easier to understand. Obviously, the IMF is steeping on the leader of El Salvador and the people within it's government. Just imagine how dumb it would be to tell a leader you don't know this or that when there are reputable and very knowledgeable people within his circle that has their own share of topics/subjects to take care of that they specialise on so the the team and it's leader can come up with a great decision/solution to a certain problem or predicament. Do they really think that El Salvador don't really know what they are doing or maybe they just think that they can easily fool the leaders and the masses with a few words expressing concern and compassion when there clearly has ulterior motives fuming from their crappy words? Jeez.

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Quote from: oHnK on February 03, 2022, 12:39:00 PM

For making BTC as a legal tender indeed much challanges fully, We can't really use it as a main legal tender and replace fiat. The big difference between fiat or crypto, is the regulator.

Sure. It must require big challenges because it is against the world governments and the centralized system. IMF as one of the centralized organizations must be unhappy if more countries adopt BTC as a legal tender. More countries use BTC as a legal tender, which means more countries are probably to be independent. IMF doesn't want this to happen because they cannot regulate world finance again in the future.

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Quote from: Kasabus on February 03, 2022, 12:41:07 PM

Quote from: lumbanrang on February 02, 2022, 12:16:09 AM

First of all, how could a deflationary coin like Bitcoin cause inflation? as far as I know, the main factor in inflation is an increase in the prices of goods and services (https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/111314/what-causes-inflation-and-does-anyone-gain-it.asp) . And also El Salvador not only use Bitcoin as their currency, they also use USD to support their economy. So the IMF's reasoning doesn't make sense. Moreover, El Salvador is sovereign over the regulations in their country, and the IMF as a global financial organization should respect any decision made by the president of El Salvador.

I think the discussion has become too complex already. From my own understanding, if IMF cannot convince El Salvador to drop bitcoin as a legal tender, i think the best way is to regulate bitcoin in El Salvador. That way, IMF may stop urging El Salvador to narrow down the scope of bitcoin or drop it. Here are also some countries that have regulated, or planning to regulate the use of crypto. Read here: https://www.reuters.com/markets/currencies/imf-asks-el-salvador-drop-bitcoin-more-countries-clamp-down-2022-01-26/

It is true that in some countries the circulation of cryptocurrencies is regulated. The government reasons that they want to protect their people from things like fraud, money laundering, etc. https://www.ndtv.com/business/5-reasons-why-cryptocurrency-regulation-is-important-2637741. But I think the regulation of cryptocurrency is quite funny because cryptocurrency itself is a digital asset that was launched to become a decentralized financial system that is free from government or third-party intervention.

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Quote from: lumbanrang on February 02, 2022, 12:16:09 AM

First of all, how could a deflationary coin like Bitcoin cause inflation? as far as I know, the main factor in inflation is an increase in the prices of goods and services (https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/111314/what-causes-inflation-and-does-anyone-gain-it.asp) . And also El Salvador not only use Bitcoin as their currency, they also use USD to support their economy. So the IMF's reasoning doesn't make sense. Moreover, El Salvador is sovereign over the regulations in their country, and the IMF as a global financial organization should respect any decision made by the president of El Salvador.

I think the discussion has become too complex already. From my own understanding, if IMF cannot convince El Salvador to drop bitcoin as a legal tender, i think the best way is to regulate bitcoin in El Salvador. That way, IMF may stop urging El Salvador to narrow down the scope of bitcoin or drop it. Here are also some countries that have regulated, or planning to regulate the use of crypto. Read here: https://www.reuters.com/markets/currencies/imf-asks-el-salvador-drop-bitcoin-more-countries-clamp-down-2022-01-26/

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Quote from: Silberman on February 03, 2022, 11:46:46 AM

Quote from: Zilon on January 31, 2022, 02:58:17 PM

Which ever way IMF are trying to secure both their interest and that of El Salvador. I just feel IMF are scared of losing out funds to crypto if the eventually lend El Salvador some loans in the future. Bitcoin as a legal tender will cause a strong deflation in price if Bitcoin falls further and would cause massive inflation if it takes the bull run. Crypto is too risky to rely ones economy on. If it must remain a legal tender then it shouldn't also serve as resource for national funds

I could understand that, after all if they lend money to a country then they can put all kind of restrictions to the country about in what they can use their money or what they do expect out of them, so I am not surprised by that, this is why if El Salvador ever falls into problems and needs money from the IMF the first thing they will do is to ask for the derogation of the law that made bitcoin legal tender, this is why we need that El Salvador resists at least until there are more countries that do the same so bitcoin remains as a legal tender in other countries if that actually happens.

For making BTC as a legal tender indeed much challanges fully, We can't really use it as a main legal tender and replace fiat. The big difference between fiat or crypto, is the regulator. You much prefer the government regulate u or the market? Both of them has their own weaknesses or the strenght.

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Quote from: Zilon on January 31, 2022, 02:58:17 PM

Which ever way IMF are trying to secure both their interest and that of El Salvador. I just feel IMF are scared of losing out funds to crypto if the eventually lend El Salvador some loans in the future. Bitcoin as a legal tender will cause a strong deflation in price if Bitcoin falls further and would cause massive inflation if it takes the bull run. Crypto is too risky to rely ones economy on. If it must remain a legal tender then it shouldn't also serve as resource for national funds

I could understand that, after all if they lend money to a country then they can put all kind of restrictions to the country about in what they can use their money or what they do expect out of them, so I am not surprised by that, this is why if El Salvador ever falls into problems and needs money from the IMF the first thing they will do is to ask for the derogation of the law that made bitcoin legal tender, this is why we need that El Salvador resists at least until there are more countries that do the same so bitcoin remains as a legal tender in other countries if that actually happens.

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Quote from: cheezcarls on January 27, 2022, 06:56:45 AM

They don’t have the jurisdiction to do that to president Bukele and the country of El Salvador, because they were not educated enough about Bitcoin or doing some research about its positive takes. IMF is just simply illiterate and was just fed up with lots of misinformation about BTC and cryptocurrencies.

El Salvador has taken the right step towards innovation and adoption and they don’t want to be left behind. I even wished that Philippines would do the same after the election of our next president this coming May 2022.

if you see what happened to el salvador, i think the philippines will rethink their plans. el salvador is experiencing economic problems after legalizing bitcoin, and this will be a consideration for countries trying to legalize bitcoin/crypto. and I think what the IMF did was right. from the start they warned that country, and see what happens when bitcoin is downtrend.

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Quote from: dezoel on February 02, 2022, 03:59:15 PM

Everyone here is talking about the situation like they have no idea about the real deal. I have read it on reddit that IMF is not telling El Salvador to stop bitcoin legal tender out of blue, they are doing it because they asked a loan from them. El Salvador asked 1.3 billion dollars worth of loan from IMF, and IMF RESPONDED with this, they didn't just say it out of nowhere like it was their business. And when you ask someone to give you a loan, they may have some requirements about it as well.

I totally understand IMF not wanting crypto in El Salvador, it really makes sense, why? Because, we are talking about a "bank" that gives money to nations and this nation is buying bitcoin like crazy instead of using that money for whatever they needed loan for.

If a friend of yours had 3k dollars in bitcoin but asked you 13k dollars in loan, would you give it to them? Or would you say "I would give you 10k, and you could sell the 3k you have in bitcoin"?

IMF is only urging El Salvador to discontinue adopting bitcoin. IMF directors “stressed that there are large risks associated with the use of bitcoin on financial stability, financial integrity, and consumer protection, as well as the associated fiscal contingent liabilities.” But if El Salvador will not follow them, of course the loan will be disapprove, but IMF can't do nothing whatever the decision of Bukele. And i can see that Bukele is still not triggered and yet, he added more bitcoins by buying them at a cheaper price. Source: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/25/drop-bitcoin-as-legal-tender-imf-urges-el-salvador.html

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Quote from: The Cryptovator on January 31, 2022, 01:07:50 PM

Nothing except centralized organization doesn't like a decentralized cryptocurrency. IMF is a centralized organization and it always will force to go through centralization. Those who are involved with Bitcoin they are well aware of it. So IMF doesn't need to force them. They should prevent El Salvador before accept as a legal tender. Now reversing the decision would be harmful to the citizens. They don't know the potentiality of Bitcoin so they will be always against it. Not surprising.

That seems to be the essence. The problem with all this is that the IMF always works in the same way: I will lend you money but you will have to follow and be abided by my economic agenda or else I will leave you to your own demise. El Salvador has a number of problems and, as far as I know, the US pays "aids" to fight against narco-traffic in what could be construed as a blackmail payment. Does it happen in bitcoin?

Quote from: dezoel on February 02, 2022, 03:59:15 PM

Everyone here is talking about the situation like they have no idea about the real deal. I have read it on reddit that IMF is not telling El Salvador to stop bitcoin legal tender out of blue, they are doing it because they asked a loan from them. El Salvador asked 1.3 billion dollars worth of loan from IMF, and IMF RESPONDED with this, they didn't just say it out of nowhere like it was their business. And when you ask someone to give you a loan, they may have some requirements about it as well.

I totally understand IMF not wanting crypto in El Salvador, it really makes sense, why? Because, we are talking about a "bank" that gives money to nations and this nation is buying bitcoin like crazy instead of using that money for whatever they needed loan for.

If a friend of yours had 3k dollars in bitcoin but asked you 13k dollars in loan, would you give it to them? Or would you say "I would give you 10k, and you could sell the 3k you have in bitcoin"?

According to that, the IMF could only lend to countries that have zero foreign currency reserves??

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Everyone here is talking about the situation like they have no idea about the real deal. I have read it on reddit that IMF is not telling El Salvador to stop bitcoin legal tender out of blue, they are doing it because they asked a loan from them. El Salvador asked 1.3 billion dollars worth of loan from IMF, and IMF RESPONDED with this, they didn't just say it out of nowhere like it was their business. And when you ask someone to give you a loan, they may have some requirements about it as well.

I totally understand IMF not wanting crypto in El Salvador, it really makes sense, why? Because, we are talking about a "bank" that gives money to nations and this nation is buying bitcoin like crazy instead of using that money for whatever they needed loan for.

If a friend of yours had 3k dollars in bitcoin but asked you 13k dollars in loan, would you give it to them? Or would you say "I would give you 10k, and you could sell the 3k you have in bitcoin"?

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First of all, how could a deflationary coin like Bitcoin cause inflation? as far as I know, the main factor in inflation is an increase in the prices of goods and services (https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/111314/what-causes-inflation-and-does-anyone-gain-it.asp) . And also El Salvador not only use Bitcoin as their currency, they also use USD to support their economy. So the IMF's reasoning doesn't make sense. Moreover, El Salvador is sovereign over the regulations in their country, and the IMF as a global financial organization should respect any decision made by the president of El Salvador.

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This is complete nonsense!!! They accuse Bitcoin that it will cause inflation when the truth is the exact opposite. Fiat is the one who causes inflation and printing more banknotes leads to money becoming worthless in the end. The governments of capitalist countries control the International Monetary Fund and I expect that they do not want success in El Salvador’s experiment in adopting Bitcoin Because this could lead to the spread of this experiment in other countries, if successful, and this is exactly what they do not want.

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The IMF is a business organization that gives loans. Their loans are not interest free, hence the want to make profit. No business organization would want to loose customers. The IMF would always want El Salvador to come back and get more loans. Therefore they will try to manipulate El Salvador to ensure they don't get money from businesses to be free from debts.

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Quote from: uneng on February 01, 2022, 12:58:51 PM

IMF wants to show the world what happens to countries which adopt bitcoin as legal tender. They are letting the message very clear: don't ever think about adopting bitcoin, because if you do this, you aren't going to have financial support from us anymore...

Blackmail on its purest form.

In fact what happens is that once governments embrace bitcoin for their own countries, they have to resign loans, international investments or any other kind of partnership with the establishment. It's a difficult decision to make, and I'm not sure if El Salvador is able to go ahead with bitcoin, because they totally depend on international help from IMF to pay the rising debt that might reach to 100% of their GDP soon if something isn't done to control it.

As if IMF know exactly that bitcoin won't help El Salvador in the long run. This is also a clear message that IMF favors only the US official currency, that if countries make other currency as a legal tender, it will be a threat to their official currency. But honestly, if El Salvador will succeed all these trials and the blackmail made by IMF, this will urge other countries to adopt bitcoin too so they can stay away from the shadow of IMF. If El Salvador can do it, there' no reasons that other countries can't do it.

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Quote from: Sithara007 on January 31, 2022, 10:18:05 PM

El Salvador should say STFU to IMF. The IMF pointed out mainly two things - volatility and usage in criminal activity. These guys don't have an issue when the value of fiat currencies go down like a falling knife. They don't have an issue when fiat currency is being used for the majority of criminal activity around the world. The real issue is not with volatility or anything else, but with the insecurity being felt by fiat lapdogs like the IMF. The president (Nayib Bukele) and the treasury minister (Alejandro Zelaya) have reacted defiantly to the demands, and rightly so.

There would be always that kind of criticism but it would be done indirectly on which you couldnt tell if they are really that serious or in concern or just trying out to tell them that they had done such mistake.

You wouldnt really be that surprised that they would giving out criticisms on something which is out of their interest and would just neglect on what fiat is been doing or simply on that traditional stuffs happening.

As for the President of El Salvador on which they are aware on what they are doing and whats done is done but doesnt mean that they would just simply fold off with these simply and common volatility issues
of bitcoin.

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IMF wants to show the world what happens to countries which adopt bitcoin as legal tender. They are letting the message very clear: don't ever think about adopting bitcoin, because if you do this, you aren't going to have financial support from us anymore...

Blackmail on its purest form.

In fact what happens is that once governments embrace bitcoin for their own countries, they have to resign loans, international investments or any other kind of partnership with the establishment. It's a difficult decision to make, and I'm not sure if El Salvador is able to go ahead with bitcoin, because they totally depend on international help from IMF to pay the rising debt that might reach to 100% of their GDP soon if something isn't done to control it.

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El Salvador should say STFU to IMF. The IMF pointed out mainly two things - volatility and usage in criminal activity. These guys don't have an issue when the value of fiat currencies go down like a falling knife. They don't have an issue when fiat currency is being used for the majority of criminal activity around the world. The real issue is not with volatility or anything else, but with the insecurity being felt by fiat lapdogs like the IMF. The president (Nayib Bukele) and the treasury minister (Alejandro Zelaya) have reacted defiantly to the demands, and rightly so.

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Which ever way IMF are trying to secure both their interest and that of El Salvador. I just feel IMF are scared of losing out funds to crypto if the eventually lend El Salvador some loans in the future. Bitcoin as a legal tender will cause a strong deflation in price if Bitcoin falls further and would cause massive inflation if it takes the bull run. Crypto is too risky to rely ones economy on. If it must remain a legal tender then it shouldn't also serve as resource for national funds

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Quote from: The Cryptovator on January 31, 2022, 01:07:50 PM

Now reversing the decision would be harmful to the citizens. They don't know the potentiality of Bitcoin so they will be always against it. Not surprising.

Its going to affect Nayib's reputation if somehow the decision is revoked but imagine the domino effect that it would create for the whole crypto community. There will be a major sell off if the decision is announced and it would put the pressure on the market downward.

Quote from: The Cryptovator on January 31, 2022, 01:07:50 PM

IMF is a centralized organization and it always will force to go through centralization

Well actually IMF is right in some sense but if bitcoin goes down to anything below $20k, that is going to hurt El Salvador financially. Its kind of a gamble that Nayib had to take in order to secure his country financially but depending on how the market goes, it could be a bad decision that is going to be recorded in history.

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Nothing except centralized organization doesn't like a decentralized cryptocurrency. IMF is a centralized organization and it always will force to go through centralization. Those who are involved with Bitcoin they are well aware of it. So IMF doesn't need to force them. They should prevent El Salvador before accept as a legal tender. Now reversing the decision would be harmful to the citizens. They don't know the potentiality of Bitcoin so they will be always against it. Not surprising.

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Quote from: teosanru on January 27, 2022, 01:57:50 PM

This isn't really IMF that is speaking all this, it's actually the big countries like US/UK which are saying this through IMF, you can be a 15 year old and understand that there is no way that a deflationary currency can bring in Inflation unless obviously, you are talking about devaluation of fiat currency due to decreased demand and not exactly inflation. But I am very sure that EL Salvador won't come back from it's decision, it's a very small as well as independent country, it has never aimed of becoming a very big superpower for them, their limited economy works well, so they can very well operate without any such assistance from the IMF.

If anything this is yet one more reason to adopt bitcoin, the IMF one of the most powerful institutions around the world is failing to convince a small country to follow their policies despite the difference in power and the threats they have issued at El Salvador, if this is not a show of the power of bitcoin and how centralized institutions have a lot of problems to deal with it then I do not have any idea of what this could be.

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They are not doing this just because they think that Bitcoin would be bad to citizens, in fact they couldn't care less what happens to citizens. It is about them getting their money back. They loan money to nations, and nations pay it back, with interest, and that is how they continue to exist. Nations also pay something like insurance to them in case they get bad so they could get a loan. If you told your bank, you yourself, that you want a loan to buy crypto, you think they would be happy about it? They wouldn't be, so it is the same logic.

IMF basically says "you are spending your money on bitcoin, don't come knocking on my door when you lose your money", which is a reasonable approach if you want loan. You should never get crypto with the money you get from a loan, and even though they didn't, IMF saying they also can't in the future as well.

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This isn't really IMF that is speaking all this, it's actually the big countries like US/UK which are saying this through IMF, you can be a 15 year old and understand that there is no way that a deflationary currency can bring in Inflation unless obviously, you are talking about devaluation of fiat currency due to decreased demand and not exactly inflation. But I am very sure that EL Salvador won't come back from it's decision, it's a very small as well as independent country, it has never aimed of becoming a very big superpower for them, their limited economy works well, so they can very well operate without any such assistance from the IMF.

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I don't really understand how having Bitcoins as the legal tender in El Salvador is going to bring higher inflation. El Salvador relied heavily on the US Dollar and was struggling with their economy for years. Nothing wrong with trying out something in my opinion. When reading about the IMF it sounds a bit to me that they are afraid to lose influence in El Salvador and other central American countries. The IMF seems a bit biased here and might be the wrong agency to speak out here. Most of the IMF loans they give out are US Dollar denominated, so of course they want that countries remain as close as possible to it. With bitcoins the IMF also has some problems regarding the collateral for their loans. Borrowing in fiat money and then buying bitcoins is a very risky business and shouldn't be done by a government.

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Good to see these crooks getting nervous! Grin

Thats a very very very good sign for Bitcoin. But I expect they will learn all too soon that Bitcoin is unstoppable. Try as they may, its already too late!

That being said, I think its a very irresponsible move and perhaps even a illegal action of the IMF to pressure anyone into something. Since when is the IMF allowed to exert political pressure on countries? I think thats a very serious breach for a "fund". I am hoping to see legal action from the side of El Salvador sooner or later to put these IMF dogs in their place with the rest of the banker fanboys. Roll Eyes

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I wonder why they think that it's okay for the country to have an unstable currency but the moment they are trying to do something better especially using the volcanic bonds at the same time making it more green and more stable they have to remove them from it. I do think that they are just trying to bring it down. They have already invested so much money on it and if they try and do that they are the ones pushing the whole economic towards downfall. I do think they are just trying to manipulate the country into not giving such big platform to bitcoins I hope they do not listen to them since during the pandemic everything is unstable, literally everything. The country needs new things to get out of their current economic situation.

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Quote from: paxmao on January 26, 2022, 05:43:45 PM

Scared they are young padawan. Just imagine that El Salvador is successful and manages to bring the country to a level of prosperity and independence from the world financial institutions. Scaring to death that is for the IMF young Jedis.

Jokes apart, IMF sets the rules to get funding, nothing new, the conditions are frequently nasty and tend to punish the lower strata of the population and have stronger effects on countries that have low ability to capture funds in the markets. This is just another example of inherence in internal affairs.

Watched Anthony Pompliano who is one of very few youtubers that I can stand.
He said the same thing that they're scared because El Salvador is showing defiance. Proving that it can be done to other poor countries that IMF wants to end up in debt.

What is important is that Bitcoin is already bigger than the IMF and growing bigger every year.

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Quote from: coolcoinz on January 26, 2022, 04:45:51 PM

First of all if I were Bukele I'd take this as an insult. Some organization that doesn't have anything to do with my country says it wants to protect them. Do these people think I'm not able to take care of my people? Do they think I'm putting them at risk and they can do better? They were never interested in helping my country before and now they dare to criticize me?

IMF is actually putting the people at risk by extorting them. Imagine someone you rent your house from says "I want to protect you so I want my house back tomorrow". If you want to extort me at least don't act like you're doing it for my own good.

That is the way those institutions always act, their offers are always something along the lines of do what we say or suffer the consequences, which is by no means a way to give helpful advice or anything, it is a threat, so I think it is to be expected the IMF will take steps to try to sabotage the economy of El Salvador and then if they are successful to give all the blame of it to bitcoin, however the IMF does not seem to realize that even if what El Salvador did was a bold move bitcoin does not need it, and bitcoin will keep thriving even if no country recognizes it as legal tender.

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Quote from: Poker Player on January 27, 2022, 02:11:19 AM

I believe that nothing is going to change his plans. Well, maybe if the price would go down a lot, but a lot.

I don't expect that price dip will make a believer to change there mind on bitcoin. The understanding of bitcoin is not just on bull volatility and the the decision to adopt it should cover even the bear. I believe he has been around during 2017 and beyond to monitor the precedence of bitcoin, bowing down at any point because of the pressure from IMF doesn't won't be a good thing for crypto world.

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Quote from: Hydrogen on January 26, 2022, 05:20:22 PM

I see posters on other forums and social media who I know are 100% computer and cryptocurrency illiterates, who never used bitcoin.

Speaking as if God spoke to them claiming: "bitcoin is a ponzi scheme, bitcoin causes inflation, blah blah blah".

This is so 2014 vibes lol well yeah back then bitcoin was not really something that people would consider as a solid investment but right now we even have Tesla, paypal and all that big names that started to 'adopt' crypto onto their platform.

Quote from: Poker Player on January 27, 2022, 02:11:19 AM

But Bukele has clear ideas and has made it clear that he will not give in to pressure. I believe that nothing is going to change his plans. Well, maybe if the price would go down a lot, but a lot.

Reminds me, what his plan was again? I honestly dont see a clear picture out of it but imo the reason is to gather people that wants to move into their country by creating crypto safehaven in there but I'd love to see what he will do if somehow the bear market continue or getting worst at this point. Getting to 30k / bitcoin is not really an issue but what if it goes deeper than that, it will definitely affect his country as whole

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Saw this mentioned on r/Bitcoin and thought, yeah it's about time. Was actually surprised it took them that long to try to "dissuade" El Salvador from continuing to expand their Bitcoin adoption.

Quote from: jackg on January 26, 2022, 10:05:25 AM

I'm assuming the recommendation is coming from the idea that El Salvador might use some borrowed funds to buy bitcoin.

I'm not certain on that but if it is the case, it'll reduce the countries chances of paying back debts in the immediate term (for example, if the price crashes).

This haven't crossed my mind. That might be a legitimate concern for the IMF. Still F them though.

Quote from: cheezcarls on January 27, 2022, 06:56:45 AM

El Salvador has taken the right step towards innovation and adoption and they don’t want to be left behind. I even wished that Philippines would do the same after the election of our next president this coming May 2022.

Do you think any of them in particular would be cryptofriendly?

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They don’t have the jurisdiction to do that to president Bukele and the country of El Salvador, because they were not educated enough about Bitcoin or doing some research about its positive takes. IMF is just simply illiterate and was just fed up with lots of misinformation about BTC and cryptocurrencies.

El Salvador has taken the right step towards innovation and adoption and they don’t want to be left behind. I even wished that Philippines would do the same after the election of our next president this coming May 2022.

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Well, we can't be surprised either, the IMF didn't like the fact that I made it legal to tender at first. Now they are taking advantage of the price volatility to continue sowing doubts. But Bukele has clear ideas and has made it clear that he will not give in to pressure. I believe that nothing is going to change his plans. Well, maybe if the price would go down a lot, but a lot.

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Quote from: bitmover on January 26, 2022, 07:38:55 AM

Quote

IMF urges El Salvador to remove Bitcoin as legal tender

The International Monetary Fund (IMF) has urged El Salvador to reverse its decision to make Bitcoin legal tender.

In September, El Salvador became the first country to allow consumers to use the cryptocurrency in all transactions, alongside the US dollar.

The decision led to large-scale protests over fears it would bring instability and inflation to the impoverished Latin American country.

Bitcoin has lost about half its value since November.

The IMF has warned President Nayib Bukele of the risks the cryptocurrency poses to the country, stressing that it would be difficult to get a loan from the institution.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-60135552

So, International Monetary fund demands that El Salvador remove bitcoin as legal tender, otherwise it refuses to give loans to the country.

They are doing so to protect the people, as bitcoin will "bring instability and inflation"

How come a deflationary currency will increase the inflation ? WTF!

they continue, saying that IMF wants to protect the consumers:

Quote

They highlighted the "large risks associated with the use of Bitcoin on financial stability, financial integrity and consumer protection" and with issuing Bitcoin-backed bonds.

We don't know what is good for us, but they know it.

They are threaten by bitcoin because they can't control it that's why this is not surprising on why they want to eliminate it on the country like El Salvador because they know if El Salvador will succeed on this they cannot use this country business and profits. Hopefully El Salvador will not be threaten and they can overcome the challenges what they face especially bitcoin is on bear market season these days.

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Scared they are young padawan. Just imagine that El Salvador is successful and manages to bring the country to a level of prosperity and independence from the world financial institutions. Scaring to death that is for the IMF young Jedis.

Jokes apart, IMF sets the rules to get funding, nothing new, the conditions are frequently nasty and tend to punish the lower strata of the population and have stronger effects on countries that have low ability to capture funds in the markets. This is just another example of inherence in internal affairs.

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I see posters on other forums and social media who I know are 100% computer and cryptocurrency illiterates, who never used bitcoin.

Speaking as if God spoke to them claiming: "bitcoin is a ponzi scheme, bitcoin causes inflation, blah blah blah".

It is a strange thing to see people be so polarized and biased on topics they know nothing about and have zero experience with.

Its like virgins claiming to be experts on sex.

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I don't see how making bitcoin legal will cause inflation. Inflation affects the fiat which touches its ability of purchase or reduces the purchasing power. This is not relating to bitcoin so IMF trying to ring the alarm of protection of El Salvador people is mere distraction from there real role and functionality

This I see as another fight against bitcoin because it is going to come out more if the IMF succeed with there threat.

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First of all if I were Bukele I'd take this as an insult. Some organization that doesn't have anything to do with my country says it wants to protect them. Do these people think I'm not able to take care of my people? Do they think I'm putting them at risk and they can do better? They were never interested in helping my country before and now they dare to criticize me?

IMF is actually putting the people at risk by extorting them. Imagine someone you rent your house from says "I want to protect you so I want my house back tomorrow". If you want to extort me at least don't act like you're doing it for my own good.

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Quote from: bitmover on January 26, 2022, 07:38:55 AM

So, International Monetary fund demands that El Salvador remove bitcoin as legal tender, otherwise it refuses to give loans to the country.

They are doing so to protect the people, as bitcoin will "bring instability and inflation"

This is the stupidest lie I've ever seen lol. The folks in IMF totally have no clue how bitcoin works it seems or probably they do but they tend to twist it somehow to make people feels unsafe with bitcoin

Quote from: jackg on January 26, 2022, 10:05:25 AM

but there's potential el Salvador did this because the imf didn't offer them much in the first place.

It is and which is also why they announce it when all eyes are on bitcoin back then when crypto market was soaring and was the hottest thing that people search on the internet. They cant get much from IMF so they are looking for another option which is making bitcoin as their legal tender so their country would be consider some sort bitcoin safehaven thus more people might move in to their country and then somehow this would affect them beneficially

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I'm assuming the recommendation is coming from the idea that El Salvador might use some borrowed funds to buy bitcoin.

I'm not certain on that but if it is the case, it'll reduce the countries chances of paying back debts in the immediate term (for example, if the price crashes).

Fees would probably be the thing to complain about with bitcoin and not inflation but there's potential el Salvador did this because the imf didn't offer them much in the first place.

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Quote

IMF urges El Salvador to remove Bitcoin as legal tender

The International Monetary Fund (IMF) has urged El Salvador to reverse its decision to make Bitcoin legal tender.

In September, El Salvador became the first country to allow consumers to use the cryptocurrency in all transactions, alongside the US dollar.

The decision led to large-scale protests over fears it would bring instability and inflation to the impoverished Latin American country.

Bitcoin has lost about half its value since November.

The IMF has warned President Nayib Bukele of the risks the cryptocurrency poses to the country, stressing that it would be difficult to get a loan from the institution.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-60135552

So, International Monetary fund demands that El Salvador remove bitcoin as legal tender, otherwise it refuses to give loans to the country.

They are doing so to protect the people, as bitcoin will "bring instability and inflation"

How come a deflationary currency will increase the inflation ? WTF!

they continue, saying that IMF wants to protect the consumers:

Quote

They highlighted the "large risks associated with the use of Bitcoin on financial stability, financial integrity and consumer protection" and with issuing Bitcoin-backed bonds.

We don't know what is good for us, but they know it.

Topic: IMF urges El Salvador to remove Bitcoin as legal tender (Read 400 times)