Importing Mneminic Seed phrase ( Nano Ledger )

o_e_l_e_o

legendary

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Quote from: PawGo on March 23, 2022, 11:12:44 AM

Yes, you are right. I was thinking about number of possible checksums (8 for 24 words) and I did not realize that it is a different case.

Exactly. If you are swapping out the last word of a 24 word seed phrase, then there will be exactly 8 valid possibilities. You can first split the 2048 possible words in to 8 groups of 256 words depending on their first 3 bits, and then from each group of 256 words there will be exactly one which has the correct final 8 bits to match the checksum.

But yeah, it you are swapping out any other word, then since it simply a random collision then technically it could be any number of words between 0 and 2048, but 8 is the average.

PawGo

legendary

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on March 23, 2022, 10:55:36 AM

Quote from: PawGo on March 23, 2022, 02:15:58 AM

In fact, we have 9 seeds (weird, no?). Checksum for all of them is correct (electrum, coleman...). I expected 8.

It's only an average, not a fixed number.

Yes, you are right. I was thinking about number of possible checksums (8 for 24 words) and I did not realize that it is a different case.

o_e_l_e_o

legendary

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Quote from: PawGo on March 23, 2022, 02:15:58 AM

In fact, we have 9 seeds (weird, no?). Checksum for all of them is correct (electrum, coleman...). I expected 8.

It's only an average, not a fixed number.

The checksum is determined by the hash of the entropy. The checksum is therefore effectively a random result, which will be one of 256 possible combinations for a 24 word seed phrase with an 8 bit entropy. However, if you change any single word in the seed phrase (even the word which includes the checksum, since it also includes 3 bits of entropy), you are changing the entropy and therefore generating a new random checksum, which has an on average 1 in 256 chance to still be valid. However, since the outcome of the checksum is unpredictable, it can easily be higher or low than this average.

So 9 valid seeds is entirely reasonable.

Quote from: m2017 on March 23, 2022, 09:34:21 AM

In order for seedrecover tool to find the missing word, will you need to enter the remaining 23 words into it? The program will not be able to steal the seed-phrases? Can such programs be trusted and how to check their reliability?

Yes, you have to give it your 23 other words, but it is open source so you can see what it is doing with them, and you should only ever run it on a permanently airgapped device anyway.

m2017

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Quote from: nc50lc on March 15, 2022, 09:45:11 PM

For the missing word, it's fairly easy to bruteforce it using BTCRecover's seedrecover tool if you really know the positions.
It will only take a few seconds to find the correct word.

In order for seedrecover tool to find the missing word, will you need to enter the remaining 23 words into it? The program will not be able to steal the seed-phrases? Can such programs be trusted and how to check their reliability?

I have not had experience using similar programs and I don't know how they work.

PawGo

legendary

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on March 19, 2022, 03:32:50 PM

Who is Pawel?

;-)

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on March 19, 2022, 04:06:24 PM

In that case, it sounds like Pawel has found for you the 8 words from the BIP39 word list which will produce a valid seed phrase with your 23 other words.

In fact, we have 9 seeds (weird, no?). Checksum for all of them is correct (electrum, coleman...). I expected 8.

And one more remark:
There is a very useful post for similar issue ("Ledger not recognising my terra address"):
https://www.reddit.com/r/terraluna/comments/rvmkee/ledger_not_recognising_my_terra_address_trying/hr6qy2j/

BUT at the end, it was user's fault:
https://www.reddit.com/r/terraluna/comments/rvmkee/ledger_not_recognising_my_terra_address_trying/hrak1g6/

o_e_l_e_o

legendary

Activity: 2268

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Quote from: Alicatraz on March 19, 2022, 06:44:09 PM

I am 100% certain the seed phrase is correct and the positions of the words is also correct , along with the position of the missing word , the passphrase was copied directly from the ledger when it was activated the first time , and was verified , no password was used , it is probably a derivation path issue , and I don't even have the address containing the coins , ( not bitcoins but Terra Luna ) and there is a lot of them 😔.

Ok. Let's assume then, as you say, that the rest of your seed phrase is definitely correct and there was no passphrase used. This means that one of these ~8 seed phrases contains your coins.

According to https://github.com/satoshilabs/slips/blob/master/slip-0044.md, LUNA is designated 330 for coin type. This means the derivation path should be m/44'/330'/0'/0/0. I'm not familiar with the coin, but according to this GitHub issue there was a bug where older wallets used to use 118 instead, giving a derivation path of m/44'/118'/0'/0/0. Perhaps your coins are here instead.

Maybe there is a Terra wallet which will let you interface with your Ledger Nano and change the derivation path? If not, then the only way I know of extracting the relevant private keys and addresses would be to download https://github.com/iancoleman/bip39 and run it on an offline airgapped computer, enter your seed phrase, select LUNA as the coin, choose BIP32, enter the following derivation path - m/44'/118'/0'/0 - and manually copy the address and private key from the first few results for each of your seed phrases. Obviously this poses a security risk since you are now handling raw private keys outside of the protection of your hardware wallet.

Alicatraz

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I am 100% certain the seed phrase is correct and the positions of the words is also correct , along with the position of the missing word , the passphrase was copied directly from the ledger when it was activated the first time , and was verified , no password was used , it is probably a derivation path issue , and I don't even have the address containing the coins , ( not bitcoins but Terra Luna ) and there is a lot of them 😔.

o_e_l_e_o

legendary

Activity: 2268

Merit: 18771

Quote from: Alicatraz on March 19, 2022, 03:48:17 PM

the seed phrases I put on the ledger so far were accepted , none reurned an error ( restore from seed phrase funtction )

In that case, it sounds like Pawel has found for you the 8 words from the BIP39 word list which will produce a valid seed phrase with your 23 other words.

Quote from: Alicatraz on March 19, 2022, 03:48:17 PM

however I do not see the coins in neither of the restored accounts with the different words , im scratching my head

One of three possibilities here, in that case:

There is a mistake somewhere else in your other 23 words
You also used an additional passphrase with your seed phrase
There is a problem with the derivation path or account

Are you certain your other words are correct? Do you ever remember using a passphrase? Are you checking the right accounts for your coins (legacy, segwit, etc.)?

Alicatraz

newbie

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Hi there ,
Pawel Gorny is the developer of one of the codes that brute forces private keys. , I have worked with him in the past and he is A1 !
the seed phrases I put on the ledger so far were accepted , none reurned an error ( restore from seed phrase funtction )
however I do not see the coins in neither of the restored accounts with the different words , im scratching my head

o_e_l_e_o

legendary

Activity: 2268

Merit: 18771

Quote from: Alicatraz on March 19, 2022, 03:22:01 PM

Thanks to all for your valuable answers , after consulting with Pawel , we came up with a list of possible words. , I believe about 8 of them , I tried to restore the Ledger Nano with each seed phrase but I ws not successful in recovering the coins , I don't even see them nor the history of the transactions , is this normal ?

If the seed phrase you have is incorrect and you try to recover it to your Ledger Nano, one of two things will happen. There is a 255/256 chance that the hardware wallet will return an error telling you the recovery phrase is invalid. There is a 1/256 chance that you will successfully recover a wallet, but the wallet is a different wallet to the one you are looking for.

It sounds like you still have the wrong words. Who is Pawel? I hope you didn't share your seed phrase with someone who PMed you?

Alicatraz

newbie

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Merit: 10

Thanks to all for your valuable answers , after consulting with Pawel , we came up with a list of possible words. , I believe about 8 of them , I tried to restore the Ledger Nano with each seed phrase but I ws not successful in recovering the coins , I don't even see them nor the history of the transactions , is this normal ?

o_e_l_e_o

legendary

Activity: 2268

Merit: 18771

Quote from: Alicatraz on March 15, 2022, 08:31:58 PM

doing a few tests , no luck so far , the mnemonic is missing one word ( 24 words total ) position of the word is known .

The wallet software you are trying to import your seed phrase in to right now is irrelevant. No wallet software will be able to recover an incomplete seed phrase. If you have a word which is missing from your seed phrase, then your priority is to either find or brute force the missing word. The easiest way to do this is either going to be by using btcrecover (https://btcrecover.readthedocs.io/en/latest/) or The Finder Outer by Coding Enthusiast (https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/the-finderouter-a-bitcoin-recovery-tool-v0160-2022-09-19-5214021).

Once you have the seed phrase then you can import it in to pretty much any BIP39 supporting wallet, but importing it back in to a hardware wallet will be both the easiest and most secure method of restoring access to all your coins.

Pmalek

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Quote from: Alicatraz on March 15, 2022, 08:31:58 PM

Is it possible to import my seed phrase from the nano Ledger X to another software or wallet like metamask or trust wallet and recover all the coins from the ledger ?

To expand on what the other users have said: yes and no. Since you mentioned MetaMask, you need to know that it's not a wallet that can store or recover your Bitcoin. MetaMask is a wallet for Ethereum and Ethereum-based ERC20 tokens. But your BIP-39 seed phrase that you generated on Ledger should work just fine in Trust Wallet or even better in Electrum.

On the other hand, consider your seed phrase compromised if you imported it into a hot wallet. You are missing one word from the seed, but with or without it, you should not use that seed anymore (once you recover the missing word) and consider moving your coins to a wallet with a new and safely generated seed.

dkbit98

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Quote from: Alicatraz on March 15, 2022, 08:31:58 PM

Is it possible to import my seed phrase from the nano Ledger X to another software or wallet like metamask or trust wallet and recover all the coins from the ledger ?
doing a few tests , no luck so far , the mnemonic is missing one word ( 24 words total ) position of the word is known .

It depends if you generated seed words in ledger or not, and if you used some custom derivation paths or not.
In principle you can use any BIP39 seed words and import them in most other hardware wallets and most likely everything will work fine with Bitcoin, with few exceptions.
When you do this with bunch of shitcoins than you are getting into danger grey zone, some hardware wallets don't support same coins, others have different derivation paths.
It is also important to know if you used one or more passphrases or not, so it's not simple universal answer for all.

Quote from: Alicatraz on March 15, 2022, 08:31:58 PM

also are the seed words specific to each wallet or are they interchangeable /interoperable?

All BIP39 seed words should be interchangeable if done correctly.

nc50lc

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Nano Ledger is using the BIP39 standard seed phrase.
So in theory, any other wallet that supports BIP39 should be able to take your seed phrase.
The coins that can be recovered depends on the wallet where you will restore the seed phrase but can be restored to multiple clients/wallets if you need to restore the rest of the coins.
In Metamask, it should work only if you didn't set a passphrase because they do not support BIP39 passphrase.

For the missing word, it's fairly easy to bruteforce it using BTCRecover's seedrecover tool if you really know the positions.
It will only take a few seconds to find the correct word.

Alicatraz

newbie

Activity: 22

Merit: 10

Hi , I have a question ,
Is it possible to import my seed phrase from the nano Ledger X to another software or wallet like metamask or trust wallet and recover all the coins from the ledger ?
doing a few tests , no luck so far , the mnemonic is missing one word ( 24 words total ) position of the word is known .
also are the seed words specific to each wallet or are they interchangeable /interoperable?
thanks for your answers

Topic: Importing Mneminic Seed phrase ( Nano Ledger ) (Read 208 times)