Topic: Innosilicon official reponse to Bitmine bankruptcy - Let the evidence talk (Read 7532 times)

AMT_miner, where is my refund, so rediculous you can not just keep quit, be a man do repsonble for what you caused.  give me the refund.
AMT order #645 and #962, where is my refund?

I paid you for 20BTC, now you just keep quiet.

some one in US just recently had the book trowed at him  for bitcoins related crimes some of it was unfair but i guess they don't care in  US any more and getting really tired of this kind of stuff.

but yea if the US doesn't come after him and they don't recover the coins hell Pretty much get a way with it but they are creaking down on it here. it wasn't dot.com it was some one else when i find it I'll link it . they wanted to make a example of hm and did .

Michael Millican (sp) spent less than 5 years in jail over his bloody-near a BILLION ripoff of folks.

 I don't remember the details, something about junk bond fraud....

nice link first time I read about it . he refused to come to the US for questioning , well if hes found guilty etc there, after his five years is up the US will pick him up and the US may still under some other law He could be in jail for 30 or 40 years . you just don't lose 390 M and expect no one to care or notice then once it's over a few years later popup and on some iland live in like a king . lmao.

That we know of.

The order list he gave over to the court only had US orders not international orders.

Also I was just thinking about it, and zipkin referred to us as avengers. He does know the avengers are the good guys right? Maybe he fancies him-self a super villain rather than a petty crook.

Too bad Zipkin didn't rip off any Japanese clients.

Reading article it's insane to think of keeping "MtGox said 750,000 customer bitcoins and another 100,000 belonging to the exchange were stolen due to a software security flaw." in a hot wallet.  I cannot imagine 850,000 BTC in a hot wallet.  Just even if they talked about security I cannot imagine someone suggesting hey ... lets move most of this to cold wallet and only keep so much online.

Storm in a tea-cup really ... 5th paragraph says:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate

Japan has a conviction rate that exceeds 99% (Note that it includes guilty plea cases.[1]), which has been attributed to low prosecutorial budgets impelling understaffed prosecutors to present judges with only the most obviously guilty defendants.

Karpeles is toast.

One scammy fat fuck scammer down in the bitcoin community. Only a matter of time before the rest like Joshua Zipkin his almost twin goes down #JoshuaZipkin #bitcoinscammer
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/aug/01/ex-boss-of-mtgox-bitcoin-exchange-arrested-in-japan-over-lost-480m



This is gonna be Zipkin at some point.

The threat was toward me, and he was referring to me calling him the Jewish Freemason Bulgarian Gimp.

The son of bitchin' motherfuckin' cocksucker Jewish bastard denied being a Freemason from the get-to of AMT, so it had to be that Joshua Zipkin offered up his Gimp ass for the masons to fuck so that he could use a space behind the temple as an office that just so happened to literally be across the street from the women his scammy dad is married to and fucks on a regular basis so that she could sign for return packages to the cocksucker Joshua Zipkin.

There wasn't one motherfuckin' issue with him being a Freemason. Not fuckin' one. But, the honest Joshua Zipkin opted to lie about it. Then continued to lie about it. Then some more, finally coming out and declaring such is true and will burn down the house of the dude that brought light to said fact. The Freemasons must be proud to have the likes of Joshua Zipkin and his dad, Zachariah Harry Zipkin, in their fold.

I was supposed to do firmware on another A1 based design, and ended up debugging the switching power supply on the system. I did manage to get 3 of the chips on the board to hash. This design never shipped, and I never really followed up on if any of the customers actually got promised systems.

I think the best thing that Innosilicon could do to regain public trust is post a fully working PCB layout under a creative commons license, and clear and transparent pricing for A1 chips, and what the different grades are. I'd like to know what equipment you use on the fab line to grade the chips.... One of my current contracts is with a company making semiconductor test equipment. Maybe we can improve the chip grading process.

AMT Miners - You told everyone we would get refunds, that there was a list. It never happened. We paid $6,000 for miners, and what most got were $800 dragon miners that were near worthless at the time. In my case I got one in pieces, and those pieces were used and not new. You have set people back in their lives.  Now you suggest they spend money on bitcoin, when they lost so much with you already. Somethings never change. It's nice to see you have money to drink away, you should be sending it to the people you made the promises to. We can't believe anything you say.

Curious as to who that was directed to? Basically he admitted there was a threat to someone. A client? Would not be the first time Joshua Zipkin has issued veiled threats to a client. I of course speak from personal experience as does Gleb.

From what I understand he is in Bulgaria (despite what he says otherwise) check through my posts, I posted the address there at one point as a good turn for him doing the same to me you can have a chat with him. Have a chat with him. See whats really going on You are in Bulgaria are you not?

Clenell can you verify the bolded? As for the secret wallets, I pretty much proved that some time ago. Anyone going thru my post history can see the blockchain wallets showing excesses of 2000Btc in poorly masked attempts at money laundering. I mean this was the special olympics of money laundering and you came in last, thats how stupid the attempt was. Took me all of one hour to find it. Took me more time to make the post formatted correctly than it did to trace the BTC you made. Oh and said wallets (there are 2) are still making alot of mining income. Your operation with KNC. But Clenell can validate with a simple yes or no if you really are back. If so there are some people interested in speaking with you (hint they wear uniforms).

And whatever you do don't take any advice from Joshua Zipkin aka AMT_Miners. If he is telling you this then it means he is expecting a massive change in the market...because he is obviously one of the people manipulating it (it is still statistically small enough to be manipulated by enough big players).

Oh another thing, "clearly" Joshua Zipkin must have someone working for him and therefore money to pay them if he is having someone write this for him. Ergo there is money, else you would not be doing this for free "not Josh" behind AMT_miners. Noone would be so stupid to subject themselves to this after everything that has happened. A google search for your, OH wait I meant Joshua Zipkin clearly demonstrates who he is and his antics and lame SEO attempts to clear his name.

Me so happy to learnt that Josh's wife left him as I so predicted she would.  

Josh, I see you're back to penning in third person. Would you be so kind to tell Joshua Zipkin to let me know what address he's using now in the States so that the police can finally deliver some paperwork to him pertaining to his threats of killing somebody?

Yep, Josh said that I deserve to die. His words even made the Bitcoin-themed rags.

AMT_miner, where is my refund, so rediculous you can not just keep quit, be a man do repsonble for what you caused.  give me the refund.
AMT order #645 and #962, where is my refund?
totally amount is US(645#for $ 5155+#962 for $6089)= US$11244

Correct me if I am wrong, but avengers are heroes born of tragedy and tribulation. Those 6-7 people who got ripped off by AMT (myself among them) had plenty heaped on them because of Josh Zipkin (AMT_miners). I think the picture sums things up as to how he sees us. He must think he is ultron or loki or something. I'll chime in more on what new "items" Zipkin has posted once I have had time to read. Took a break from the forum for a while.

Rik,
Breaking necks hands and threats are his specialty
I am wandering how a pig like Zipkin poserkoto can brake something at all he have to pay for it for sure but here the "boys" who do it do it only in preorder and once in his miserable life he will have to pay 100% in advance   and wait without refund option
Now seriously there were some threats about his family here even his address in Bulgaria was posted. I asked folks absolutely seriously not to act like him and became same scumbags and cowards  Forum history is here and I  will not loose my time to dig my posts regarding this. His wife and relatives have nothing to do with his shits and can not be held responsible for Zipkin actions.

I am positive that everybody me, you and Zipkin of course will get what we deserve someday. The life, good or whatever force is out there will take care and everyone of us will pay for the shits we made in one way or another. Or will be rewarded in one way or another for the good things we have done.  That is how it works and it is not a threat. Life will take care it is just a matter of time.
But for sure if I meet Zipkin in person I will spit in his face and will take all the risk and consequences of what such fat ass can do to me

Ha
POSERCOTO ZIPKIN IS STILL ALIVE
hello poserko I am still waiting for my 10 BTC  
I will show some mersy you can send me some crap to review it and I will tell you how much gold can you extract from this shit
------
Josh spent 2 months in china building and shipping miners, making sure it got done.....
-------
You mean fucking Chinese hores, drinking and spending customers money?
I do REALY feel petty for him but I can fully understand why his wife left him if that is true of course.if not and she happen to read this that is the first thing in the morning to be done
-----
AMT shut down outsourced operations there
-----
Do you call ductaping miners outsourced operation
The most pathetic part is that Zipkin poserkoto  was sitting over gold mine for almost a year and instead of being milion are with honest business and a lot of happy customers he is one foot in the jail now ....
There were a lot of pics here from his famous trip to China but I am too tired to look for them. But for sure it was fun trip

I am wandering how is your fat Masson ass lately doing Do you start to feel that sweet ass pain already
Be prepared PSERKO BE PREPARED your colorful friends are eager to meet you in the....jail
Have a nice day poserko

It's good to hear that you are working on new chips. But numbers are little bit high. A1 was not low voltage friendly. Normal efficiency was ~0.7 W/GH. If you say that new chips will be 60% more efficient that gives as ~0.3W/GH. That efficiency others achived with old and cheap 28nm. I liked to work with A1 and if you decide to sell samples maybe it will be fun to work with A3, but that 60% doesn't look to promising.

You're thinking of KnC's 16nm announcements.  BA had announced 14nm, but they abandoned that (if even seriously pursued). LK Group also have 14nm aspirations.

KNC announced working silicon on a 14nm FinFet process already in use recently (couple weeks ago? Last week? can't remember offhand).
They've abandoned selling hardware in favor of their own megafarming efforts, though, so VERIFYING that they're actually using their new stuff would be difficult at best.

 You look likely to be the first to the general market.

Thanks all for elaborating. Innosilicon's job on A1 project was to do the proper ASIC and and ship them to whoever wanna design the miners . By the way, we are free to ship in the open market from day 1 and we never shipped one region with better quality ASIC than another region. Any such claim is just fking lie and malicious. Why would we do that? Never! European region to us, are just as important as any other regions in the world. The two chip Reference board we did for A1 we did was only served to evaluate and demo our ASIC and not for production use. As it turned out, companies like Bitmine had very little prior engineering experience and they are not competent to handle the miner production in the end. All in all, engineering is all about knowledge, process and experience. Hard lessons are learnt and it is never easy to get-rich-quickly if you don't really know it.

BTW, Martin from IMET is a cheater and liar. He begged us to ship him a few thousand ASICs to make boards back in March 2014 and promised to pay later. After ASIC arrived, he disappeared. His A1 Miner was too extreme and too hot to be reliable.  He should not be trusted.

After A1 phase, we did 28nm A2 ASIC PLUS the official A2 Terminator miner design together so that there won't be another Bitmine like miner fiasco which hurt ASIC sales, which was better.

The latest development is that we are moving on to the A3 ASIC and A4 ASIC design already. Both in 14nm and already taped out with over 60% power saving over the 28nm generation. Anyone interested in those are free to contact us. I guess we are the 1st to move to 14nm at this point and we are confident A3 and A4 are both gonna work great.

Thanks all for the spirited debate and sharing. God bless!

Right? Didn't he say he was working part time as an electrician, no he doesn't have a job? Sounds like he's working under the table. I'm betting he's not licensed that's not safe, he must want to burn down homes. You saw the picture of my miner, he threatened to burn down Bruno's house with him inside, and now he's doing electrical work. Yikes!

Besides he spends his time in the bars, I can just save him from him self with wage garnishment.

Good idea. Where is he hiding at these days?

I most certainly did not receive a PSU.

I have pictures of the miner as it arrived, sans PSU and never received anything after the fact. I was told I'd be receiving a PSU from josh via Skype. Then nothing.

While I am sympathetic to the divorce it is hardly the fault of AMT customers and using them as a scapegoat for a failed marriage is childish. A real man would own up to the fact that his actions caused the problems.

I could care less what Craig has to say, I don't know why you would trust his word now when you haven't at any point in the past, but that is a nice try. You do things only when they are convenient to you.

If you'd like to provide me a tracking number for my missing PSU that you sent I'll be happy to do the leg work.

Yes I loss six grand and I'm glad you admit that, it is as NotFuzzyWarm said it's nice to see even a little bit of honesty. But that has nothing to do with your marriage. I am disabled from my time in the army, but I'm not asking for a pitty party. It was my choice to serve and I live with the consequences as you must with your decisions.

Most states and large metros area have several, just check the phone book or do a search for electronics recycling and the state/city. Definitely needs to be close to you to avoid shipping costs!

It probably depends a bit on what date one goes with - e.g. announcement to make one - tape out - wafers - packages - use beyond testing.

For the early 28's, I've got...
KnCMiner - 2013-06/07-?? (tape out)** - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.2832504
HashFast - 2013-08-28 (tape out) - http://hashfast.com/tapeout/
ASIC|rising* - 2013-08-?? (tape out) - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.8123564
Innosilicon (via Bitmine) - 2013-10-01 (tape out) - http://bitmine.ch/coincraft-a1-taping/
KnCMiner - 2013-10-05 (use**) - http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/576ghs-bitcoin-miner-presented-by-kncminer-at-crypto-currency-con-2013-in-atlanta-226603211.html
Cointerra - 2013-11-08 (tape out) - http://cointerra.com/cointerra-open-silicon-announce-tape-goldstrike1-asic/
HashFast - 2013-12-19 (use) - http://hashfast.com/uniquify-and-hashfast-announce-working-silicon-for-bitcoin-mining-chip-at-tsmc-28hpm-process-node/
Innosilicon (via Bitmine) - 2013-12-31 (testing?) - http://bitmine.ch/first-samples-coincraft-a1-demonstrated-working/
Cointerra - 2013-??-?? (use?)
* unverified, no hardware in the wild
** KnCMiner was as tight-lipped back then as it is now, plenty of unverified claims
Yes, sourced corrections are absolutely welcome, or edit the wiki on Bitcoin ASICs directly.

Right, monitoring wasn't part of the plot. We can pull the email from Craig lenell who claims otherwise and post it here if you'd like. You were sent a PSU, just like fuzzy was. And there was no fleeing the country, Josh spent 2 months in china building and shipping miners, making sure it got done. Then went back to Bulgaria for a few months to shut down AMT's outsourced operations there. He also dealt with a divorce and and several other things. "Fleeing the country" is a provocative statement, and made to instigate a reaction. Josh had always lived part time in Bulgaria for the past 6 years due to his former marriage. There was no action of fleeing, he just went home. He ended up getting divorced, loosing his apartment in BG, his wife, and new born kid. You lost 6k? He lost everything.

He's been in Philadelphia since February. The idea that he's fled the country and has a secret mining farm is ridiculous. He's also met with lenell's lawyers in their office face to face on several occasions. AMT's still has the summons and prepared claim, IMET needs to be served and if there is judgement/settlement it will go to repay the clients, so to answer your question, Yes, the idea was to attribute winnings to clients and issue refunds. Reviewing submissions to a public docket doesn't make you an expert on the matter, and listening to a shmuck like Tony Serrata who has is own agenda among other things is ridiculous as well. There is no more AMT, no secret wallets with tons of btc, no one to sue, just a broke guy working as a freelance electrician fixing peoples light switches and home wiring during the day and spending his nights in the bar or on the sofa staring at the bottom of the bottle.

Take what ever money you can afford to gamble with, buy btc and sell between Sept 15-20th. You'll make your 6k back. Or invest in something non-crypto related and open a margin account and long ticker: TZA for the next 2 months, again selling between Sept 15th-20th.
Or sue josh personally, and have his "wages garnished". He'd need to be employed for that one bud. Have you googled his name, if you were an employer would you hire him?

You just got two sure fire ways to make your money back. Use them.

Working on the exceedingly cheap electricity part, but I don't see progress with that for at least a year or two. Magnets can be funny.

Ltek was dragon miner, the factory we used was in cooperation with them prior to their expansion, the software was theirs but modified by Lee group, our subcontractors.

Can you recommend a specialist in scrapping electronics, especially bare pcb boards, gold plated?

It's good to know that he purposely sent me a miner that wasn't complete even though I paid for it. That should help me win a judgement against him. I have no problem taking a trip to PA.

No one plotted to monitor AMT. Josh was in communication with people of his own free will. Hell he engaged me in conversation. However, when he didn't make good on his end of the purchases those who he was talking too refused to be silent about what he said to them, and surprise some of it was pretty inflammatory.

You don't get to take people's money, deliver faulty or unfinished products, and then flee the country while maintaining the moral high ground. "We did our best", though I'm not sure you were really more than a sole proprietorship, isn't good enough. If a lawsuit with IMET would have paid you enough to refund all your customers then why the hell wouldn't you do that? I hope for the sake of potential customers and your potential worker that you never start up a business again. You obviously don't have the chops to run a company.

So you say, "One day maybe we get our lawsuit with IMET." My question to you is, what if you do and you manage to win? Would you refund the people whose money you took? My guess would be no at this point.

You must think you have the biggest swinginest dick in the world to come in here and talk like this. For fucks sake.

Speaking of fleeing the country, when are you coming back to the US to face the judge?

Are you sure? The Innosilicon press releases were dated around mid April 2014, where as the KNCMiner Jupiter was shipping in October 2013.

Wish I could but I do not have the time for it nor unless seriously underclocked would they be viable to run anymore unless ya have free or exceedingly cheap electric If I had that time I'd first undervolt/underclock all my S1's and bring them back online

To get any scrap value, take them to a place that specializes in scrapping electronics. They may not offer much but it should be better than a general scrap company would give.

re the testbed: the one card that survived more than a couple weeks continued to run at 170 GH/s for almost 6 months before giving up the ghost.

The miners finally sent weren't from Ltek? I could swear the GUI has their name on it...

As for Android - no it is not Linux. AFAIK it is more closely related to JAVA. Nor is Android open source. Yes it's OS code is freely available but if used in a commercial device there are (minimal to zero cost) license fees to be paid and you are not allowed to make unauthorized changes to the OS.

Again, good to hear you giving a more honest sounding appraisal of what went down. +1 for that

EDIT: By Jove ja I was wrong - the company name on the AMT miner GUI is Stetc not Ltek.

Regarding the market... It's already in control by the PTB and that was demonstrated a few weeks ago with new block structure. They are in a position now to utilize bitcoin in the event there is another crisis... BTC has demonstrated stability for over 6 months straight, attracting more conservative financial mindsets and companies, investments have been made into the right companies (outside the country) which are now basically owned by US venture. The new bandwidth requirements cancel out the potential mining monopolization from countries with poor internet connections. And the country which produces the most miners and mines the most btc has the poorest of internet connections. Effectively issuing partial if not soon to be complete control of transaction speeds to western enterprises. Mining operations of the future will exist in countries with the fastest bandwidth...

We've said it before and we'll say it again, this forum was created to aid and assist in the development of the technology necessary to make BTC successful and to monitor and eliminate all potential liabilities or threats to those who may stand in the way, alter the outcome, or could profit more than they should from this business. And to find a few scapegoats and distractions. Most of us have lost everything and have nothing to show for it. Most companies never looked at the big picture, or were often distracted by things which didn't matter. These are all lessons to be learned for ventures to come, that's something we all need to realize. No help or guidance is free, opensource is never better than enterprise because it was created for sole purpose to teach enterprise how to to do it for free in the first place. Android is linux, is it not?

Final note:. Don't buy miners, invest in BTC at an amount that your comfortable with and that wont effect you from paying your bills or taking care of your family... Buy BTC, keep it offline, never in online wallets or exchanges, and when the time is right, usually 60 to 90 days for any good investment, sell.

Innosilicon was the first company to produce a 28nm Asic, they were the only company that seemed to be fair and aided AMT in their time of need. They are ahead of the game in most cases and will most likely continue to be a successful company solely because building asics for miners is not their core business, it was like a hobby for them.

You have the bom and the docs, the same as IMET received. It called for 70% sink on the bottom and 30% sink on the top. The original contract called for ready made modules, in an effort to deliver on time AMT was assured that Bitmine would assist or at least consult during the production process. The alternative was to try and get refund or sue Bitmine at the time, and return everyones money, which wasn't an option anyway because AMT funds went towards Asics and had already been spent. So the only option was the route which was taken and hope for the assistance promised, which rarely happened, if not at all. Either way, IMET was responsible for ordering the values on certain components and skimping on the qty of copper in the board. Despite the lack of assistance from Bitmine, the design worked if it was built correctly. The DCDC and power regulator came from Martin at technobit, who attempted to help bitmine during that time, and was paid for it as well. The problem wasn't in the asics because asics from the same batch, which were picked up from switzerland and brought to america were then taken to china and used in the production there.

Which was not Lketc by the way, that was a different company all together. We used one of the factories that built Inno's miners, and the board which we delivered was different/more improved than the dragon miners. In the end we delivered a working product, and built better ones there after. it was the perceptions of the community and the crap that we got on this forum among other sites owned by competitors like GAW that turned our focus towards larger clients vs individual ones. But all attempts failed.

The problem stemmed from the lack of help from bitmine and the negligence and greed of IMET to bank on commissions from express orders, IMET's lack of attention to detail and greed in commissions on resale of components and PCB's. But mostly, AMT's trust in others, and the focus on distractions rather than the ultimate goal, distractions like this forum and the opinions of a few clients vs the masses. And the court cases and all that, all distractions. A lesson well learned for what ever the next business will be.  

Almost all miners were shipped with PSU's, there were a few which weren't and those went to the very same people that attempted/plotted to help/monitor AMT and then pulled a 180 when we had a real product to deliver. An attempt which was seen from the beginning, not many people spend ours on forum for free. Or insist on helping as much as possible without delivering any real technical assistance what so ever (excluding Fuzzy, who was the only one with actual knowledge of these systems). So false information was given to said individuals in the event an 180 did occur. Effectively make them seem questionable to those that matter which could easily verify what as true or not.

It's not even worth the time of going into it. And AMT is just another failed business to add to the to list of the so many failed businesses. But we were at least one of the few companies that tried to pull it off and eventually delivered a working stable product despite everything else. If we wanted to steal everyone's money and run away and build mines, we would have bankrupted in April of 2014 like Hashfast, who walked with 8 million in customer funds, legally.

We kept the majority of the boards/broken or not from IMET in the event we actually went to court based on the summons we have. Which hopefully one day we will, but without money for lawyers its another useless venture. We should have blown off Lenell's case, blocked this forum completely, and used the funds for the case against IMET. IMET's insurance would have paid out double if not triple, and we would have issued refunds, in that event, lenell would not have had a case (which has been moved to civil suspense btw) and it would have been dismissed. This was AMT's fault and a poor decision on our part, to fight the pending class action or go after IMET.  

That being said, Fuzzy if you have the means to fix them and want to spend the time swapping resistors maybe its worth it to you or the community to pick them up instead of us taking them to scrap.

But I think you did a test with them at one point and of the 8 IMET produced boards you were sent I think only 2 lasted more than 3 weeks or so. Did you ever keep them running or what happened?

Ja, ^^ is a perfect example of how to not cool power chips.

Perhaps it was this one?





I've yet to recieve my power supply and we're coming up on almost a year after mine shipped, the second one that is. Still haven't received a miner that hashes any where near what I paid for. Even after they went to china mine hashed at 600gh. Haven't heard much on the class action so if that fell apart I'll just have to sue him individually and then have his wages garnished.

I always wanted to be an avenger.

And trust josh, he would know threats.

ya
Yes they were and despite trying to help them gratis, the Ltek A1 miner they finally sent was also sans PSU though they did send one for it a week later. I do have to say that the miner has been running 24x7 for almost a year now with zero issues aside from being hungry. Shows what a proper design can do (and I have free power)

Not exactly supporting Josh about his post on his and AMT's role in things but good to finally hear a bit more honest explanation/tale trickling out over what transpired between AMT and Bitmine. As I had been saying since getting into the A1 mess by buying a miner from AMT and then digging into all I could find about the A1 and Bitmine and knowing that AMT's miners were re-branded Bitmine ones the fact that Bitmain was not fulfilling their own general-public customers did not bode well for those of us who were AMT customers...

I get that their major customers - including themselves (Bitmine) via their partnership in mines - get the bulk of production in a sort of 1st-come-1st served BUT if they had a viable and stable design at least a trickle of Consumer rigs would have made it out the door to placate the clamoring hoards. At least the peta-farms they were supplying had to eat the dog food they made

Even my few attempts to get some specifics from Bitmine via Josh on some basic questions I had were -- not promising -- with Bitmine not exactly responding. In retrospect Josh's post is just backup to what I was seeing.

Folks, a reference design PCB & circuit is just that - for reference to test how a chip should work. It is NOT a guide to making a real-world product. That is up to the end-user of the chip to figure out using the reference to guide you in how your final design should operate. Sometimes a reference board/circuit is optimized to show Best Practice for the final design, most often they are not. Now if Inno was supposed to also supply a working Production system or hash board module design, that's another story and is between Bitmine and Innosilicon to work out.

Part of Bitmine's problem was that they copied the PDN (power distribution network) from the 2-chip board and just figured, 'lets make it bigger to fit more chips per-chain". Doesn't work that way as an ASIC has a very 'spikey' current draw and those spikes happen at the clock freq - 10's to 100's of mHz. The PDN has to be designed like a radio circuit or all sorts of havoc ensues. Make a major change as Bitmine did and well... That goes in line with Inno's comment about the DCDC margins as well.

In this case the A1 Dev thread here covered many aspects of what killed the Bitmine design and yet Bitmine ignored them. Possibly because they and the WASP project were pushing for open-source DIY miner designs?

My new title: Mr. So Isolated Avenger: Seek out and destroy All Josh Zs

Yep

This thread gets better and better.  I really need to get popcorn.

I'm very very surprised to see AMT coming on here defending anything.  Werent they the company that wanted to ship miners without PSU and only shipped PSU as lawyer said to?  I was thinking they had all kinda of rumors/stories way back then.

I think Innosilicon proved they had working chips.  I know I had A1's and A2.   I just hope lawsuit does not delay them much I would rather they can focus on next gen.

well, well, well... look what the cat dragged in.

AMT Miners. Interesting.

That 70K in legal fees could have paid back  6-7 people you swindled. you might have come away unscathed. instead chicanery prevailed and you persisted in your ways. your business failed because you are an extremely dishonest person.

you stole $6,000 dollars from me. i WILL have my day in court Joshua Zipkin of AMT Miners.

Blaming your customers for complaining about non-delivery ? How quaint.

hey Joey Jiang,

giorgio masserati said you took 8M paid to Innosilicon for development, masking and production lots of CoinCraft A1 chips.

and giorgio ferrari also said Innosilicon. The company that we engaged for the development of our A1 CoinCraft chip ended up in being BITMINE’s biggest failure. We engaged this company with a regular contract and entitled them to develop our 28nm ASIC based on our know-how and instructions, along with the full turnkey process of creating the mask, wafers and IC packaging. We had signed a contract that was expecting to guarantee us a one year exclusivity on the chip, however at a later stage we received proof that Innosilicon was plainly violating the contract from day zero and selling our own A1 chips to whoever inquired them directly. Once we pointed this out, they simply stopped answering our enquiries and disappeared, putting us in obvious panic because we had an extremely tight schedule and obligation to deliver the miners on time and they knew that perfectly. So, once they knew how attractive the market we were into was, they forced us into signing an amendment to the contract where we allowed them to sell the A1 chips to third parties. Additionally, they even forced us to write formal excuse letters for the “false” accusations under the threat that if we hadn’t signed them, they would just delay the supply of the A1 chips so long that they would be worthless.
Once the first production lot of chips, with a delay of nearly two months and a performance 50% worse than promised was delivered to us, the issue of “yield” popped up. Innosilicon repeatedly delivered us broken chips or “junk grade” ones as part of the purchased (and paid for) lots, forcing us to place ever bigger and bigger orders in order to fulfill our customers’ orders and eventually draining out most of the company’s money. Out of all the ordered chips, a huge part of them were simply not working and could only be thrown away in the garbage bin. Here you will see for yourself the pictures of the piles of tens of thousands of worthless junk grade chips still sealed in their original packages. When asked about clarifications, they claimed this was “normal production yield” but failed to provide any relevant document that could certify it. It is also worth mentioning that while we were struggling with thousands of junk chips, the A-grade ones could at all time be purchased in Hong Kong directly from their Chinese resellers, at some point even at lower prices than what we ourselves paid for.
At the end of this horrific experience, we had paid to Innosilicon in 2013 and 2014 a total of more than 8 million CHF but received only a small amount of usable A1 chips, causing us a huge financial loss. Therefore, we enquired two different lawyers in order to evaluate legal actions against them, but ended up with answers that more or less said that the chances of getting our rights respected from a Chinese court against a local Chinese company were close to zero. We only later found out this is a common practice from Chinese companies, regardless of the written agreements you make with them. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property_in_China)

the problem in this whole thing is, this 8 million wasnt giorgios cash. this was all preorder cash from many idiots who send mr masserati money...

so in my opinion you should send all your evidences to the local competent court of Bellinzona...

why? its simple because all the fucked customers will never see a sathosi back. so we need at least justice...

giorgio masserati is a liar, a con artist and a monumental asshole. so please send your evidence to the court.

bitmine.ch is gone so here for all the liars open letter...

giorgio made a fucking bunch of bitcoins with his farm in iceland. and now he hides them from the court!

___________

Open letter from the former BITMINE AG management.

 

We are sorry to announce that on the 20th of May 2015 at 9:00, BITMINE AG has been officially declared bankrupt from the local competent court of Bellinzona.

It was publicly known that BITMINE AG was in a difficult situation from several months, but despite our biggest attempts to save the company by restructuring its product and services and seeking for new investments, all without success, left us no other chance than the road to bankruptcy. The accounts, assets and all company documents are now in hands of the Swiss justice and will be under inspection and investigation.

We all, both as former directors of the company and as individuals, make our deepest apologies to the many customers and suppliers that were patiently waiting for a refund or a compensation. As BITMINE AG’s board, we have always acted in our best good faith, within the limits of our skills and in the interests of the company and, therefore, its customers.

We also want to take the opportunity to make clear with everybody that the accusations on the forums are false, we as first have lost all the company’s share capital and several hundreds bitcoins in loans to the company ourselves. This is fully documented on the company registers and is now available to the relevant authorities for inspection.

Why did BITMINE AG go illiquid and eventually bankrupt? The answer to this question can be, in our opinion, divided in the three major issues that affected BITMINE AG:

    Bitcoin value and mining difficulty. Everybody knew and was aware that there was a significant risk associated with Bitcoin mining. We have to be honest and face it: if Bitcoin was still valued at well over $1000 like it was in the beginning of 2014, nobody would have tried to cancel his orders and we would all be rich. Unfortunately, the BTC value collapsed constantly since Mt.Gox’s bust and mining difficulty exploded to values that nobody was able to predict at the time we were selling our products. Today, the bitcoin mining market is completely dead and in the hands of a tiny group of major players and the bankruptcy of most of our former competitors is the brightest demonstration that this market collapsed.

    Innosilicon. The company that we engaged for the development of our A1 CoinCraft chip ended up in being BITMINE’s biggest failure. We engaged this company with a regular contract and entitled them to develop our 28nm ASIC based on our know-how and instructions, along with the full turnkey process of creating the mask, wafers and IC packaging. We had signed a contract that was expecting to guarantee us a one year exclusivity on the chip, however at a later stage we received proof that Innosilicon was plainly violating the contract from day zero and selling our own A1 chips to whoever inquired them directly. Once we pointed this out, they simply stopped answering our enquiries and disappeared, putting us in obvious panic because we had an extremely tight schedule and obligation to deliver the miners on time and they knew that perfectly. So, once they knew how attractive the market we were into was, they forced us into signing an amendment to the contract where we allowed them to sell the A1 chips to third parties. Additionally, they even forced us to write formal excuse letters for the “false” accusations under the threat that if we hadn’t signed them, they would just delay the supply of the A1 chips so long that they would be worthless.
    Once the first production lot of chips, with a delay of nearly two months and a performance 50% worse than promised was delivered to us, the issue of “yield” popped up. Innosilicon repeatedly delivered us broken chips or “junk grade” ones as part of the purchased (and paid for) lots, forcing us to place ever bigger and bigger orders in order to fulfill our customers’ orders and eventually draining out most of the company’s money. Out of all the ordered chips, a huge part of them were simply not working and could only be thrown away in the garbage bin. Here you will see for yourself the pictures of the piles of tens of thousands of worthless junk grade chips still sealed in their original packages. When asked about clarifications, they claimed this was “normal production yield” but failed to provide any relevant document that could certify it. It is also worth mentioning that while we were struggling with thousands of junk chips, the A-grade ones could at all time be purchased in Hong Kong directly from their Chinese resellers, at some point even at lower prices than what we ourselves paid for.
    At the end of this horrific experience, we had paid to Innosilicon in 2013 and 2014 a total of more than 8 million CHF but received only a small amount of usable A1 chips, causing us a huge financial loss. Therefore, we enquired two different lawyers in order to evaluate legal actions against them, but ended up with answers that more or less said that the chances of getting our rights respected from a Chinese court against a local Chinese company were close to zero. We only later found out this is a common practice from Chinese companies, regardless of the written agreements you make with them. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property_in_China)

    Engineering difficulties. There were some difficulties on the engineering side as well. The technical design of the “CoinCraft Rig” was flawed due to its 24V power supply design. Several engineers were hired to counter the issue but this model was production ready only so late that in the meantime we had already replaced most of the Rig orders with Desks. We had also suffered from electrical components’ shortages (DCDC controllers, organic polymers capacitors, MOSFETs, etc.) and where therefore repeatedly forced in delaying our production lots.

 

The most often asked question is: where is my money gone? Why weren’t you simply able to pay back everybody?

Let us expose the financial figures to answer this question. BITMINE AG has sold in 2013 and 2014 a gross total of 12.1M CHF of products in various currencies and forms (Fiat and Bitcoin). Below is a summary of where this money has been paid to and is taken as an excerpt from the company’s official balance sheets and financial records, hence fully documented (the numbers are rounded for reading convenience).

    8M paid to Innosilicon for development, masking and production lots of CoinCraft A1 chips.
    2.1M paid to major suppliers of electronic components, heatsinks and casings (like Digi-key, Future Electronics, etc.).
    0.7M paid for logistics (UPS, DHL, etc.).
    0.7M paid to IceMine for the hosting fees of our cloud mining service.
    0.6M paid as salaries to the production, management, engineering and support staff (totaling 18 people).
    0.4M lost in Mt.Gox’s bankruptcy.
    1.4M refunded to customers.
    0.5M other running expenses such as rentals, travel expenses, legal expenditures, accounting, marketing and advertising, fuel, etc.

 

With a grand total of 14.4M CHF you may be wondering why this is actually higher than the above-mentioned sales volume. Just remember to add 1M share capital, 0.8M of loans with third parties and 0.6M of self-mined bitcoins in our operations in Iceland. If this last number may seem low to you, please remember that most of the miners in Iceland were offered as compensations to former customers through bitmine.io, leaving us only the smallest part of profits for our own operation.

The second most asked question is whether we were a scam or not. We were not because we have actually delivered a significant amount of our products. Despite all the above mentioned problems, out of the 3500 units that we sold and we got prepaid for, we have delivered to our customers more than 2000 units, all produced in our facilities.  There is a full photographic documentation of our production facility, happy customers picking up their miners and pallets full of miners being picked up by the freight company for shipping.

We acknowledge that this will not bring back your money, but hopefully it will give you an honest view on the reasons why it had been lost.

 

Regards,

The BITMINE AG board of directors

_____________

In the end, Bitmine's design was stable, but it took a while to get there as Inno pointed out. AMT wasn't updated on revisions and never received adequate support from the swiss as well, this was due to their own chaos of their business, or the fact that they didn't care becuase AMT had already sent their payments to Bitmine, we're still not sure. After reading this thread, some of claims brought against Inno are valid, and some of them against Bitmine as well. Bitmine did have a problem financing the chip, and inno did cover the other half. Inno was subcontracted by Bitmine, and was supposed to and did deliver a reference board as promised. Expansion on that design led to further problems.

AMT had a contract with the swiss, Bitmine was due to originally deliver fully working populated modules by a specific date.  After the delayed delivery of the chips/or more over the delayed in the allowance of AMT to pick up the modules, both AMT and Bitmine went into different productions because Bitmine made it apparent that there was no way AMT was going to get fully working modules prior to bitmine customers, especially some of the larger ones. With assurance of support and help from Bitmine AMT agreed and contracted IMET, which further botched the job through several errors, ordering the wrong values on various components and ultimately taking advantage of AMT's desperation at the time with the suggestion to quickturn all orders knowing the capacity of production wasn't there. Skimping on vital details set forth in the bom like the amount of copper in the boards, while cutting costs to increase their commission.

While this community has made both AMT and Bitmine out to be something ridiculous, both companies did try to deliver a product. Now, poor business decisions were made, bitmine did procrastinate in building the design which was due to the fact that they wanted a working asic before they designed a board around a proto, or so it seamed. In our opinion, this caused the delay. AMT ended up re-promising other's promises and hoping for the best. Bitmine did have problems with the designs, and Inno did have different grades and versions of both A1 and A2 chips. Which is a normal process in asic production by the way. When you produce a batch of asics, some turn out better than others. Design changes of the asics between versions made things more complicated for the pcb designers though, and yes voltage is one of them.

In the end, AMT dropped bitmines design and went to china and Inno helped AMT with introductions to production facilities and connections in order to deliver miners to those clients that would still accept them at the time. AMT understood both worlds by the end of that fiasco, and worked to develop rackmount miners which were affordable, stable and viable at the time. AMT's 6 or 7 avengers (clients that were either paid or just made it hobby to screw with AMT's staff and online rep) made it nearly impossible to sell the new models with limited staff and no budget. So, AMT gave up. Which ended the same way for Bitmine, broke and out of the luck. The problems which occurred between bitmine and Inno and why they occurred were ridiculous, problems created by paranoia, greed, suspicion, lack of funding and false promises, on all sides. The problems which occurred between AMT and Bitmine were mostly due to disorganization, and both parties living through the same shit storm, and one party putting too much faith in the other. While Bitmine made miners and mines, AMT made miners in china and focused on lawsuit which drained over 70k+ in legal fees alone.

Neither Bitmine or Inno acted 100% correctly, but each of them had their reasons as to why they shouldn't. Bitmine procrastinated on the design until the asics and reference board arrived. Inno sold to chinese vendors because they weren't confident in Bitmines ability to pay. Bitmine didn't wan't to pay until they saw a working product.. You get the idea of the argument.

But again, this business was a mistake from the beginning. It's ruined lives, it put business owners and clients in financial burden, its destroyed reputations and families. When a wife a client doubts her husband because he made the wrong choice to purchase a miner, (from any company by all means),  or when the wife of an owner divorces him right after having their newborn for fear of her child's life and her own due to the types of threats and gestures which have been made. One can say this business destroys lives. But I would guess stocks are no different from the client aspect. Despite good faith practices due to competing parties, it has brought the essence of greed out in everyone involved, investors, clients and manufacturers alike. And almost all have either failed or barely broke even. Like we've said before, the only guy's that really made money were the exchanges.

And in the end people still rant and rave on this forum, waiting for the next spurt in bitcoin, getting ready for the next mining manufacturers to trash. While still pissing on those that tried and failed.

Any lawsuit between bitmine and inno wont happen, it's china, no rules apply. So don't waist your time on it. Inno in many ways acted correctly, and Bitmine in many ways acted to the extent of what they felt was justified based on their position, neither acted in a malicious way towards the other in reality, or nothing more than the nature of this business/industry could allow.

The best advise, which has been reiterated on this forum over and over is the following: Don't buy miners, buy Bitcoin.

There will be another cycle of this drama soon, hopefully this time it will be more regulated. BTC and all things around it will start up again mid August, escalating (steadily in price) until the beginning of September. You'll see a steady slow rise in BTC, like clockwork. +2% -1% +2% -1% etc. Between the 10th of September and beginning of October, you'll see a jump not too far off from November 2013.  LTC will fluctuate between 4 and 8 until hits $9.50, and then jump to 14 shortly after it hits that price point, and will stay consistent at a 4.5-5% threshold of the value of BTC as it once did before.

The age of crypto currency is not over, if anything it will be needed more than ever shortly, but to those who mine, sell them, because it'll become more and more regulated over time and profits from transactions will decrease as well as it becomes more monopolized by the PTB. Or keep mining, as long as you have a 100mb connection.

This topic of Inno vs Bitmine, is a useless one. Inno has the upper hand, Bitmine's broke, and their swiss. Plain and simple.

AMT_Miners ..... 9 months since last post! This thread IS something .....

The 100k vs 10k regulator was available at the time. IMET ordered the wrong component, either by accident or on purpose we'll never know, but this was one of the main reasons the boards didn't work. Also the thickness of copper in the board, which was incorrectly ordered as well, both of those were the main reason for the productions failure.

NotFuzzyWarm,  thanks for sharing your info.  You are absolutely right! They took Innosiicon's Dec 2013 2 chip lab test boad and simply multiply up to a big board while replacing our DCDC regulators and heat sinks design with their own inadequate ones. They ingored our repeated warning about the importance of extra margin on DCDC and big top thermal heat sink. Also they were way too aggressive in reducing on-board MCU. They one time fried a large batch of ASICs by ignoring the manufacturing protocol of baking the chips 7 hours before SMT soldering process. Chips were fried and pop up in flame. What can we say? All sorts of silly mistakes imaginable for naive engineers trying to make their 1st PCB production in life time.
 
From Jan to May 2014 when A1 was the best in the world and miners were in huge demand, they wasted all these precious mrket windows and chips in several failed attempts to make their Miner production. This is why any chip in their hands did not turn into miners to make money. In the meantime, people used the same design they released also suffered big time and sat with boxes of PCB boards not knowing what to do.  We really felt sorry for them.
 
Simply a  tragedy!

...gross

The schems, BOM and PCB files remain property of Bitmine.ch and I have to respct that part of the NDA I had with AMT.

What I can say is that Bitmine pretty much took the 2-chip dev board that was being used in the A1 dev thread here and multiplied it into a lot of 2-chp layouts on 1 big board. Also apparently never paid attention to what was being said there about thermals when the chips are pushed to published specs.

As to Vcore... Due to product availability AMT used a different model of the regulator chip that had a higher value internal ref divider (100k vs 10k). But - dinna change the external resistor values to match the difference. Also AMT/Bitmine never tried to set the internal flash ram in the regulator to startup at a safe voltage. Result: For several seconds the ASICS are hit with a Vcore voltage above their max ratings until a bootstrap program is run to set it to the correct voltage.  

EDI: Correction. Looking through my notes was the DPOT feeding the regulators set point that was substituted w/o correcting the fixed resistor values in the reference divider tied to it. End result was the same.

I'd be interested in looking at some of that. Haven't had a good laugh in a while.

All in all I side with Inno's OP explanation of what went down in the Bitmine.ch/AMT A1 miners fiasco.

As an attempt to help out with the A1 mess from AMT/Bitmine, I did forensics on several of the A1 boards that Bitmine/AMT were using from late Feb thru around mid-May of 2014. They went through several revisions in that period. These boards and a testbed were provided courtesy of Joshua Zipkin owner of AMT. Since aside from a different name on them they are the same boards, my findings should apply.

Bottom line is that whoever designed those boards and ESPECIALLY the thermals layout should be shot (figuratively of course). As evidence, re the difference in the large topside heatsinks that the Dragons used, Bitmine/AMT 1st tried none at all then tiny chipsinks held on by thermal tape. 1 guess as to which hashboards had highly heat-discolored sinks falling off and chips literally going poof letting out their Majik Smoke.

Trying to get information from Bitmine's engineer on even the most basic things like how the ASICs are reset on power up generally resulted in, 'uh, what?' By digging deeper through the schems provided I found how they did it and their method of choice often/mostly worked but was certainly not 100% reliable. I won't even get into the Vcore regulator issues I found...

For the record, I offered to look over some of the documents and verify 1) their existence and 2) their contents, under NDA if required.

Wow, folks, thanks all for your attention and replies. Many of you have commented on your positive experience on A1 or A2 AISC or Miners from whoever suppliers. Thank you! For those who express doubt and cynical views, thank you as well, although some of your misleading "insider" comments are laughable. Everyone is entitled to expressing your view point. Prejudice, lies, stereotype, misleading "insider" info are all part of the life and part of this forum. That is why I had to make our voice heard.  We took notice about Bitmine letter only just recently when a Swiss Magazine approached us for comment.  We were furious as they lied to deflect customer anger.
 
1. A1 ASIC Intellectual Property Issue. Bitmine claimed someone "stole" the A1 intellectual property from them using no fact but a racial stereotype to imply that all companies in China don't innovate but steal. That is simply radical discrimination. The truth is Bitmine people did not and still don't know a thing inside of A1 ASIC.  Let me put an open challenge to Bitmine: show us a A1 FPGA demo or even a block diagram inside A1!  By the way, the FPGA lab demo Bitmine put on youTube was made by Innosilicon FPGA in the Innosilicon lab and all they did was taking our video and edit out our Logo without our permission.  What a joke! The truth is that Bitmine people have never designed any chip product ever and Innosilicon quickly rolled out a more sophisticated A2 LTC ASIC plus A2 terminator Miner in just 2 months after A1 announcement.  Both A1 and A2 ASIC share the same unique command structure, same customerized package which no one else in the world has other than Innosilicon. Who is the real design team here?
 
2.  Does Bitmine own the exclusive A1 ASIC rights? Of course not. Even Bitmine people don't dare to claim that in legal term or swear under oath. Some "insider" here made us laugh. Bitmine in essense is only a Innosilicon A1 chip reseller. Any claim that Dragon Miner ever got A1 from Innosilicon at lower cost or higher quality at any given time than Bitmine is false and baseless. It is Bitmine 's fault for failing to design a competitive miner.
 
3. Did Bitmine receive A1 ASIC in agreed quantity and quality? Definitely, A year ago, 7 months after 1st A1 ASIC batch shipment, Bitmine sent us a thank-you email on the completion of A1 chip order fulfillment and asked us to support their big mining farm expansion in Iceland. Tested chips shipping to Bitmine consistently contains clear gradation marking (A, B, NG) by the test assembly house. Bitmine was informed from day 1 on the gradation and acknowledged that they received every chip they ordered with the confirmed yield.  A1-2 to A1-6 are purely based on manufacturing batch dates and has nothing to do with chip gradation. There is no excuse why Bitmine did not have A1 to fulfill customer pre-order while 7 months later continue to use A1 AISC and miners to expand their mining facility.  After all, clearly lack of A1 is not the reason why they failed to fulfill customer orders or could not roll out A1 miners ahead of Dragon Miner, .
 
Innosilicon is a reputable company with a decade of proud record of delivering leading IC/IP products all over the world with great customer satisfaction.  A large number of our customers are outside of China and we have employees in China, US and Canada.  A1 and A2 ASIC were all made under extreme short notice with Innosilicon engineering genius while our competitors such as Cointerra and Hashfast failed miserably. Our record speaks for itself and we are very proud of it.  We used to have some sympathy for Bitmine's business failure. But now we don't. They screwed up big time, they lied to their customers,  they lied about A1 intellectual property and exclusivity, they wasted customer pre-order money building risky mining farms.  They can't blame others for their own wrongdoing! That is clear if you read our letters carefully and do your own thinking.
 
Some of you want to see us publish evidence, sure, that is why we came out and stated that we have them ready to help any legal case for the court of the law. Due to confidential nature, our legal department is not yet ready to send all the signed contract to the open forum for outsider's viewing pleasure. Afterall, some of you are not trial judge here and we are not under any legal obligation to disclose legal contract to the open forum to prove our innocence. We don't need to. However, if you have a legal case pending our help (or anyone want to visit our office to read them), you are welcome to ask your lawyer to contact us for our evidence assistance.  We have evidence behind everything I say here and we want you to know that.
 
Again, thank you for your interest and opinions.
 
Joey

I was about to post the same thing.

Well the cocks will be coming home to roost for innosilicon if indeed they sold bitmine.ch grades c/d chips at over twice the market value for grade a chips. Question is, where is the evidence to dispell that?

The words "let the evidence talk" are even in the title - so where is it?

As far as chips the A1 was a great chip.  Companies did make ton's off of it such as LKETC.   The dragon 1T's were great machines and ran without any problem.

I find it interesting the low level posting sladner'ish things.   But I think it is most likely a troll.   I don't see proof they made bitmine go bankrupt.  But I could be missing something.

I just hope they are working on next gen I would like to see what their chip turns out to be.

i personally trust innosilicon. actions speak louder than words, look up what a fraud and failure bitmine.ch became.

As long as you don't post this amendment I guess it's anyones choice who to believe.

Will there be more Innosilicon mining chips in the future?

One last thing I want to point out is that it is very strange that the A1 Dragon miner company along with other A1 clones were so successful. We should be asking why those companies were so successful with producing and selling miners with the A1 chips.....WHY IS THAT? WHY....did every other company that tried to produce and sell A1 miners fail? I am not sure if there was many others but it seems like every company outside of China that tried to produce and sell A1 based miners failed miserably. The other companies I know of that sold A1 miners outside of China were Bitmine of course and then there was one called AMT and I think another called nTek Computers. They all had really bad problems and their businesses failed.

There must be something to that because it cannot just be a coincidence that the companies Innosilicon sold A1 chips to in China prospered with great success and the ones in Europe and America failed.

hmmm.....I am just saying.... 

Oh and I really hope I am completely wrong about anything negative I said about Innosilicon. If they can provide evidence then they can have the right to call themselves innocent, but with just worthless claims and words...in my eyes they are no better than Bitmine.

I really hope that Innosilicon does provide the Bitcoin community something solid other than just their marketing directors words.

I think the bigger thing is saying they kept high grade for local market.   I would agree testing a batch of chips would be a lot of time, and only done if they thought it was crap chips.

Do you have any proof of anything you have said?

Asking Bitmin Why didn't you test IC's before?

They replied:  IC's come in batches of 5000 we cannot open them they are sealed, only foundries knows what they preduce.

Issu is that this grades from what Bitmin.ch said, they were not aware of that. Later only found out that the Reference No on the IC itself was a "code for grade"   A1....-6 was grade A A1...-3 was grade C etc ...

Makes it  impossible to test IC manually 1 by 1 knowing 1 miner 1T needed 40 IC's normal mode and 32 IC's Turbo mode. would have taked how long to test 50 000 IC 1 by 1.

That is a heck of a story if this is true.   Can you go into more details?

I mean it seems customer would have the chips before they could test.   If they shipped grade based on region that is a huge thing to suggest.

Clarifying:

First would like to  say Hi to "A" Innosilicon" and to G&C Bitmin.ch.  W

What am about to say will definitely get some ppls upset, even though am trying to stay neutral and anonymous, some ppls might have clue who is writing those lines.

The fact is that YES InnoSilicon indeed manufactured (well they didn't Taiwan foundry did ) grade A,B,C,D they HAVE INDEED provided on purpose grade "D" IC's to Bitmain.ch.

they sold grade "A" in China local market and were laughing about it saying "you want buy from Swiss guys go ahead we only gave them Grade "D" IC's all grade "A" were sold locally and at a extremely low price to a HUGH local reseller (which no need to state the name here but all know who am talking about)that kept the biggest part of the market.

They actually sold IC to this Chinese manufacturer about 2,3 times cheaper than they sold to Bitmain.ch.

They have "demonstrated " to Chinese customer how to test IC, saw demonstration in my own EYE.

Test Procedure:  "put multimeter on NEUTRAL, use one side  of the multimeter on the outside of the IC other end  inside the IC if the result is less than 0.4 IC is shit. etc ...

Mr "A"  is a clever guy my opinion is that they used Swiss money when they freshly graduated from University in Wuhan once they saw the potential and the advantage they had they decided "F.. it" we will make much more money if selling ourselves" cmon guys you know China "no pattern no NDA nothing works when it's not between 2 Chinese companies.

conclusion:  Swiss made a Hugh mistake ignoring China potential market for BTC back than, they thought EU, USA, AU all markets but didn't think about China.

InnoSilicon mistake: too young too greedy, could have given a share of the cake to the Swiss that originally put the money on the table (even though is true wasn't their own money was poor pre-order ppls money) on the other end Swiss for sure would have done EXACTLY same thing so no need feel sorry for them

1 question to Mr "A" Innosilicon:

BEFORE the Swiss Bitmin.ch came to you how much money did you have in your own bank account??? enough to launch NANOTECHNOLOGY 28NM in Taiwan foundries??? or you are saying you guys have a foundry capable of 28NM Tech in your back garden
all are wrong Bitmin.ch using other peoples money gambling with money that didn't belong to them.

Is funny in my opinion Bitmin are upset coz they played innocent ppls and they got played themselves

no one is honest 100% in this BTC business which is why it could profit so much money, it's a rule the fastest you make money the fastest you will loose it.

Conclusion: ALL of those manufacturer, developers, Foundries, didn't suffer nothing from all this,  those who really suffered are those poor guys that had some small savings aside like 2-3k$ decide will invest in BTC hoping they will make some money.  They are I suppose millions of poor ppls that lost a small amount in the eyes of InnoSilicon & Bitmin.ch but for them it may have meant a lot. all of those out there who used innocent ppls money, if you believe in luck what you all did to those poor ppls in the end will come back to you "What goes around, comes around"

Sorry for all those poor people out there still waiting for their Miners wherever they  bought them from  , KNC miners, Black Arrow (no comments , and those poor ppls that have used miners for 2 months than have it sitting in their garage coz it will never reach ROI and made them lose money instead.

Only small regards goes in my opinion to SpoonDoolies-Tech they always have been quite honest, but than again never did any deals with them.

that's all ... for now

They withstood a lot on miners.  The dragon 1T in many places was put in it's paces and amazingly it seemed to keep ticking.   It was a great miner in it's time.

Only weakness was they went with low quality PSU, but I can't blame them to much for that I'm sure it was a business decision.

I was pleased with my A2 based machines as well.

IS, do you intend to publish said evidence?

I have had nothing but good results from machines using the A1 chip.  Thank you so much for your efforts and please get us some new chips and partners for next gen machines.

On behalf of Innosilicon Inc, the proud real owner of A1 BTC ASIC and A2 LTC ASIC, I would like to make it clear that we are very shocked to learn that Bitmine shamelessly pointed their finger to us for their business failure due to a series of their own engineering mishaps and reckless business risk taking. Innosilicon has done nothing wrong here and we continue to deliver our quality product even till this date. We have full evidence (email exchanges, legal contract, shipping record, business plans, apology letters etc) that Bitmine management tried to use Innosilicon as scapegoat to mislead their customers for their failure to fulfill their customer orders. We would like to provide full evidence to assist those who filed lawsuit against Bitmine. Our contact info is listed below and let us suit Bitmine liars. The world deserves to know the truth.


1. A1 chip came out on time and working. Chips were fully delivered at normal 28nm foundry yield to Bitmine with Bitmine CEO email acknowledgement and appreciation. Full amount of ASIC were delivered and tested with clear grade marking and there is no excuse for Bitmine not to deliver their mining machines. It is Bitmine who failed to turn working A1 into good miners to customers. In fact, they received our 1st batch of over 50K A1 chips at cost in early January of 2014 yet failed to produce working miners till April, at that time, BTC market was very hot and miners were in huge demand yet they failed to capitalize. Even then, Bitmine A1 Miner system was reported still not stable which is the biggest reason why they missed market windows. In these two critical months they received another over big batch of low price chips ahead of anyone which were enough to fulfill their customer miner orders. The only reason of their failure to produce miners were their system PCB design and DCDC design flaws. This is due to their poor engineering issues, thus wasted a lot of money by making tons of failed circuit boards, not due to our A1 chip issue. They are the one who is responsible for the failure of customer delivery. In the meantime, another Chinese miner manufacturer Dragon Miner came in after them and started to deliver working miners in late Feb and quickly ramped up very high volume with A1 directly purchasing from us with much higher cost month after month. On the other hand, Bitmine sat with the piles of working A1 chips and could not produce working miners. Yet they shamelessly blamed on all their failure on Innosilicon!

2. Innosilicon never violated any agreement therefore Bitmine knew they could not even think of legal battle. The A1 project became joint investment in Oct 2013 when they could not fund the project by following the previous contract funding terms. So they asked Innosilicon to step in to fund half of the mask fee with a contract amendment where it stated that Innosilicon have the full rights to sell the chips in the open market and Bitmine does not have the exclusive rights of the ASIC. If you read the amendment, you will see that why they absolutely don't deserve the exclusive rights for A1 chip. They were not forced to enter the agreement amendment, they should thank us for the investment to save the whole project.


3. The reason why Bitmine had to apologize to Innosilicon with offical letter is that they themselves later violated the contract amendment by falsely declaring to the whole community that Bitmine own the exclusive rights of A1 and threaten lawsuit against anyone who buy A1 Chip from Innosilicon directly. Obviously this was totally false and the breach of our amendment and they had to apologize or facing lawsuit.


4. We have every evidence to show that Innosilicon developed and own 100% of the A1 ASIC intellectual property and our company is a world renown IP company with excellent ASIC design skills. Innosilicon not only independently developed 28nm A1 BTC ASIC, it also quickly developed A2 LTC ASIC. Both quickly became No. 1 in the market. Our business is all over the world and enjoy stellar reputation with zero complaint from anyone. Protecting IP rights is of paramount importance to our company and we never had any design IP from Bitmine. Bitmine was previously only 2 person company who had zero chip design experience. Can you believe that Bitmine could develop most advanced ASIC with their background? We stated in the contract that any design contribution from each company belongs to each company. Bitmine has zero actual ASIC design contribution in the chip. All they did was to provide us their system input and output files for us to simulate our design.


5. If you ask us, we have a lot to say why Bitmine failed  to keep their promise to us and to their customers. 1st, Bitmine used the pre-order money from customers to build/purchase their own mining farms (tried one in Swissland and one in Iceland) and conducted risky bitcoin trading, in both cases, they lost big money. A1 would have been a lot more successful if they did their job right. I'd to say that the real problem for Bitmine is their weak management on risk and poor technical execution in a market  that is full of competitors and time to market is of great importance. They had 2 months to prepare their miner design before our ASIC came out yet they did a terrible job in that after 4 months, their miner still don't work right and customers were all angry and  they used us as excuses.  I have many facts documented that how they failed so many times before producing a working miners. They made several big mistakes in rushing their production and wasted a lot of materials and chips and made us very very upset. We delivered chips marked with grades according to contract and they knew it. To this date, they still did not pay for some agreed chip shipment fees and we had to cover their unpaid shipment fees.


We are saddened by Bitmine's bankruptcy and failure to fulfill their customer promise. We are shocked that Bitmine management used baseless accusation as excuses to default their refund on their customers and cover up their business risk takig and engineering mistakes. We have every evidence to show that Innosilicon has faithfully followed our contract and contract amendment and it is Bitmine that grossly mishandled their miner design and business in a very unprofessional manner. It is very obvious that A1 chip has been a huge success, on time and with quality , yet A1 miners from Bitmine did not ship on time and with quality to their customers 12 months after. Isn't it clear that who did their job right, who did it wrong?


We reserve every rights to file lawsuit against Bitmine management on spreading baseless rumors to damage Innosilicon reputation. Should anyone need more information and legal help, our legal department is happy to assist.

Best regards,
Joey Jiang
Innosilicon Marketing Director
[email protected]