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Topic: Is BCH an effective investment option in the long run? (Read 419 times)

member
Activity: 224
Merit: 10
I don't think so. BCH is just a bifurcation of BTC. I'm not optimistic about BCH. On the contrary, ETH has a better prospect,so I suggest you keep hold the ETH.
member
Activity: 350
Merit: 10
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i don't know but i think it's like ETH and ETC (of course Bitcoin is ETH in that), now Bcash community is big enough to keep this coin grow for years ahead, also bcash has advantage (faster, etc). But we know ppl always choose the true ones, btc
BTH pump and dump. No original project. Named as bitcoin family to trick people. And people like it because BTH is for hype lover.
jr. member
Activity: 130
Merit: 1
Hello community crypto, I am a newcomer to this market. My initial investment was a few ETH. I notice that in recent days, BCH value seems to increase quite high compared to the general market. > 10%. So, BCH has to be a good investment for long term to hold?
Better to focus on investing on Ethereum as this will surely rise higher in the future and being the mother of most ICO with the adoption of smart contract this will push them to increase their value.
newbie
Activity: 21
Merit: 0
BCH is a centralized coin like Ripple so this ain't a good investment in the long run.
If you will hold this coin for long term, you'll be broke because its either Jihan Wu will dump this coin.
Or Roger Ver will dump as well when they are ready to forget about this coin.

it is true about BCH but Ripple situation is 100 times worse than this. because it is not only centralized and they can control everything including your balance but also the total supply is 100 billion while only they have released about 40 billion of it.
in other words there is still 60 billion XRP unaccounted for which they keep releasing each time they pump it so that they can make a huge chunk of money.

Well bitcoin cash is still considered as one of the top coins in the market though i kind of agree with you there. Calling bch as the real bitcoin won't hook that much support from people in the crypto community, well aside from ver diehards that is.

I didn't know it was that bad with Ripple! I was thinking of taking a few coins just for a short term flip but that could be a bit risky if they can just dump a whole bunch of coins into the market at anytime they please. But if it's already so low right now, that would probably be against their own self-interests, wouldn't it? They'd probably want to allow it to come up a bit before dumping it again.

BCH doesn't bode well with me either mostly because of the fork and centralized nature of it. Forks are usually not very good signs in my eyes. It can be a sign of weakness and discord among the team.
sr. member
Activity: 588
Merit: 251
EVOS
Speak like all correctly, indeed a large number of BCH coins concentrated in one place. But a lot of people are blind when they think only about profit, I'm not sure they'll ever want to open their eyes.
jr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 5
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Bitcoin cash has stopped moving after it was found to be largely centralised. This is a major moo point in crypo, only ripple seems to have been accepted as a centralised crypto, but that might be short lived when people wake up
member
Activity: 344
Merit: 10
Although BCH looks very good, its scope of use has not been effectively improved, and if it continues to stagnate, it may face a downward trend!
hero member
Activity: 2324
Merit: 513
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BCH is a centralized coin like Ripple so this ain't a good investment in the long run.
If you will hold this coin for long term, you'll be broke because its either Jihan Wu will dump this coin.
Or Roger Ver will dump as well when they are ready to forget about this coin.

it is true about BCH but Ripple situation is 100 times worse than this. because it is not only centralized and they can control everything including your balance but also the total supply is 100 billion while only they have released about 40 billion of it.
in other words there is still 60 billion XRP unaccounted for which they keep releasing each time they pump it so that they can make a huge chunk of money.
What the heck. I didn't know about that Ripple and its a good thing that I never have any interested of having even a single Ripple.
That's truly worse so if someone has these coins and keeps on arguing and defending it to others, think again.

Well bitcoin cash is still considered as one of the top coins in the market though i kind of agree with you there. Calling bch as the real bitcoin won't hook that much support from people in the crypto community, well aside from ver diehards that is.
It has some whales back up so its remaining on the top but it doesn't mean they are good.
member
Activity: 470
Merit: 16
I'm don't recommend anybody to invest in BCH. Sorry but its just has no real value it replica of bitcoin with no future.
member
Activity: 260
Merit: 15
Every coin may rise but that does not indicate they are good coins to invest for the long term, ethereum is much more better than bitcoin cash for the long term for me.

You might be right and I do agree Ethereum is far better than BitcoinCash. But BitcoinCash is considered as one of the dark-horse altcoin which have capacity to outperform all other its peercoins / altcoins in long run. Though it might be not performing as expected, but in coming months I guess it will show why it is called as shadow of Bitcoin.
full member
Activity: 747
Merit: 102
BCH is a centralized coin like Ripple so this ain't a good investment in the long run.
If you will hold this coin for long term, you'll be broke because its either Jihan Wu will dump this coin.
Or Roger Ver will dump as well when they are ready to forget about this coin.
i don't know but i think it's like ETH and ETC (of course Bitcoin is ETH in that), now Bcash community is big enough to keep this coin grow for years ahead, also bcash has advantage (faster, etc). But we know ppl always choose the true ones, btc
full member
Activity: 308
Merit: 101
Every coin may rise but that does not indicate they are good coins to invest for the long term, ethereum is much more better than bitcoin cash for the long term for me.
hero member
Activity: 1246
Merit: 529
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BCH is a centralized coin like Ripple so this ain't a good investment in the long run.
If you will hold this coin for long term, you'll be broke because its either Jihan Wu will dump this coin.
Or Roger Ver will dump as well when they are ready to forget about this coin.

it is true about BCH but Ripple situation is 100 times worse than this. because it is not only centralized and they can control everything including your balance but also the total supply is 100 billion while only they have released about 40 billion of it.
in other words there is still 60 billion XRP unaccounted for which they keep releasing each time they pump it so that they can make a huge chunk of money.

Well bitcoin cash is still considered as one of the top coins in the market though i kind of agree with you there. Calling bch as the real bitcoin won't hook that much support from people in the crypto community, well aside from ver diehards that is.
hero member
Activity: 1456
Merit: 579
HODLing is an art, not just a word...
BCH is a centralized coin like Ripple so this ain't a good investment in the long run.
If you will hold this coin for long term, you'll be broke because its either Jihan Wu will dump this coin.
Or Roger Ver will dump as well when they are ready to forget about this coin.

it is true about BCH but Ripple situation is 100 times worse than this. because it is not only centralized and they can control everything including your balance but also the total supply is 100 billion while only they have released about 40 billion of it.
in other words there is still 60 billion XRP unaccounted for which they keep releasing each time they pump it so that they can make a huge chunk of money.
hero member
Activity: 2324
Merit: 513
Catalog Websites
BCH is a centralized coin like Ripple so this ain't a good investment in the long run.
If you will hold this coin for long term, you'll be broke because its either Jihan Wu will dump this coin.
Or Roger Ver will dump as well when they are ready to forget about this coin.
sr. member
Activity: 518
Merit: 250
I don't think so Smiley. Although I know that BCH is a cryptocurrency which created from Hardfork of Bitcoin and we can understand that it's the son of the king but it's not a good choice for long term investment Smiley. I think you only should hold your ETH or you can increase number of ETH which you're holding by buying more only Smiley.
hero member
Activity: 2730
Merit: 585
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Hello community crypto, I am a newcomer to this market. My initial investment was a few ETH. I notice that in recent days, BCH value seems to increase quite high compared to the general market. > 10%. So, BCH has to be a good investment for long term to hold?
I think you should only invest in short term in the BCH, you can see that the market is bearish in the long term, so the price of the BCH will probably continue to decline in the near future, the can see If the bitcoin price is restored, the price of the BCH will be raised. So I think you should only invest in short-term so that you can minimize the risk.
Good point of view right here. Also please remember to not just look into BCH/USD price but look deeper into BCH/BTC chart. I see some news for BCH but still my prediction is to just don't invest into it. Like I said before there are many projects to choose from, so why invest into Bitcoin Cash?
By the way it is quite new thing so better is to keep restrained form it. It is not like you are keeping yourself away from innovation and new coins and you aren’t trying new creations but dude, this is all about investment. Your hard earned money can be on stake and you may be regretting over it for long time. So research about them first and then chose the best option.
full member
Activity: 368
Merit: 100
BCH could drop in price to $ 400-450 if the market changes direction and bitcoin falls in value to $ 5000-5500. In my opinion, it is necessary to wait a little to look at the market trends.
sr. member
Activity: 1400
Merit: 283
Hello community crypto, I am a newcomer to this market. My initial investment was a few ETH. I notice that in recent days, BCH value seems to increase quite high compared to the general market. > 10%. So, BCH has to be a good investment for long term to hold?
Why invest in BCH when you could invest in the mother coin which is bitcoin, everyone knows that bitcoin is by far the best investment for the long term run, and btc cash is just a fork from it and I think that it has no where to go, it might go up once in a while but defiantly it is not a good investment because everyone knows its just another fork to scam people.
sr. member
Activity: 742
Merit: 251
PRIVATE FEDERATED BLOCKCHAIN
I personally believe in BCH and BTC to invest in the long run, both are very good in the future as giant coins to keep me believe
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1043
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We have different insights regarding into this. Some people especially the Pro - BCASH will think BCASH will be a good investment for them in the long run therefore, they will buy it and hold for the long run. They trusted Roger Ver so they will hold. On the other side, the Anti - BCASH will think that this is not a good investment for the long run and therefore they will never invest in it.

For me, I don't like BCASH that is why I choose Bitcoin over this stupid fork of BTC. I didn't bought even a single BCASH because I don't like it.
full member
Activity: 283
Merit: 100
Hello community crypto, I am a newcomer to this market. My initial investment was a few ETH. I notice that in recent days, BCH value seems to increase quite high compared to the general market. > 10%. So, BCH has to be a good investment for long term to hold?
I think you should only invest in short term in the BCH, you can see that the market is bearish in the long term, so the price of the BCH will probably continue to decline in the near future, the can see If the bitcoin price is restored, the price of the BCH will be raised. So I think you should only invest in short-term so that you can minimize the risk.
Good point of view right here. Also please remember to not just look into BCH/USD price but look deeper into BCH/BTC chart. I see some news for BCH but still my prediction is to just don't invest into it. Like I said before there are many projects to choose from, so why invest into Bitcoin Cash?
full member
Activity: 1834
Merit: 166
Hello community crypto, I am a newcomer to this market. My initial investment was a few ETH. I notice that in recent days, BCH value seems to increase quite high compared to the general market. > 10%. So, BCH has to be a good investment for long term to hold?
This coin has shown signs of regular growth after the folk and its launch and prices have also gone far away in the peak period although they have came down a little now but following btc trend once again recovering.You can hodl it for long but it can't be said that it will more profitable or not as there is always a risk factor so its your personal choice.
member
Activity: 392
Merit: 10
Hello community crypto, I am a newcomer to this market. My initial investment was a few ETH. I notice that in recent days, BCH value seems to increase quite high compared to the general market. > 10%. So, BCH has to be a good investment for long term to hold?
I think you should only invest in short term in the BCH, you can see that the market is bearish in the long term, so the price of the BCH will probably continue to decline in the near future, the can see If the bitcoin price is restored, the price of the BCH will be raised. So I think you should only invest in short-term so that you can minimize the risk.
hero member
Activity: 1232
Merit: 738
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No. BCH would never be my investment option for the long run
why? because it's a fork without any substantial improvements from BTC
it's just a tool for some select people to make quick cash Undecided
full member
Activity: 283
Merit: 100
Sorry, but I'm not believing in projects like Bitcoin Cash where people on the lead of it are not let's say honest with what they're doing. In times when you have got like 1600+ crypto projects in which you can invest, you can surely find better projects/coins to invest.
I would totally agree your opinion (the only post in this topic that doesn't believe in BCH) as i find it the most sheatable cryptocurrency ever. BCH had been forked from the main btc blockchain as a way to solve some problems (block size, fees,...) by trying to make everybody forget about the old BTC and focus on a new decentralized cryptocurrency running in a separate blockchain; this means that BCH is not to be trusted at all neither for long term hodl, nor for daily trades. At the same time, developers maintain the blockchain of btc by providing more suggestions of solutions (Lightening network,SegWit...).
Never beleive in BCH or the team behind.
Talking still about BCH please remember that for many time Dogecoin had got more transaction per the same time frame than Bitcoin Cash. Now, when there was a moment when BCH has got more, their community just blow up with happiness about that Cheesy That's funny for me Cheesy
newbie
Activity: 112
Merit: 0
Yes. I always support this coin, BCH is my passion and confidence, I believe in them and can capitalization market of this coin will increase next year, surpassing ETH
member
Activity: 176
Merit: 10
Hello community crypto, I am a newcomer to this market. My initial investment was a few ETH. I notice that in recent days, BCH value seems to increase quite high compared to the general market. > 10%. So, BCH has to be a good investment for long term to hold?
I have a tendency to decrease my trust into coins that are using a name of another cryptocurrency in they are name, like Ethereum Classic, Bitcoin Cash, and etc. You need to develop your unique brand name, imho.
sr. member
Activity: 1092
Merit: 257
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yes because I think bch is almost similar to bitcoin in terms of price changes and the market is also very similar, bch is perfect for long-term investment.
BCH is similar to Bitcoin but it is not Bitcoin potential and reputation so we should better move to Bitcoin is the good for long term and my suggestion is Ethereum also best deal for long run.
This year BCH is more volatile so better avoid to invest in this platform we will protect our investment for long term.
newbie
Activity: 196
Merit: 0
yes because I think bch is almost similar to bitcoin in terms of price changes and the market is also very similar, bch is perfect for long-term investment.
hero member
Activity: 2338
Merit: 757
Sorry, but I'm not believing in projects like Bitcoin Cash where people on the lead of it are not let's say honest with what they're doing. In times when you have got like 1600+ crypto projects in which you can invest, you can surely find better projects/coins to invest.
I would totally agree your opinion (the only post in this topic that doesn't believe in BCH) as i find it the most sheatable cryptocurrency ever. BCH had been forked from the main btc blockchain as a way to solve some problems (block size, fees,...) by trying to make everybody forget about the old BTC and focus on a new decentralized cryptocurrency running in a separate blockchain; this means that BCH is not to be trusted at all neither for long term hodl, nor for daily trades. At the same time, developers maintain the blockchain of btc by providing more suggestions of solutions (Lightening network,SegWit...).
Never beleive in BCH or the team behind.
full member
Activity: 283
Merit: 100
Sorry, but I'm not believing in projects like Bitcoin Cash where people on the lead of it are not let's say honest with what they're doing. In times when you have got like 1600+ crypto projects in which you can invest, you can surely find better projects/coins to invest.
full member
Activity: 644
Merit: 101
In my opinion the most potential for investment in long run is BTC and ETH because both coin stronger than other, both has bigger community and also will solve scalability issue in crypto space by add new features and increase the technology to be more high advanced. BCH is good but will be better to chooce BTC and ETH.
hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 500
Hello community crypto, I am a newcomer to this market. My initial investment was a few ETH. I notice that in recent days, BCH value seems to increase quite high compared to the general market. > 10%. So, BCH has to be a good investment for long term to hold?

Im not really sure why bitcoin cash went up so much over the past month but i dont think it's due the fundamentals of bitcoin cash.  I've noticed that in many cases some altcoins will experience drastic price drops during a bear market and thats what happened to bitcoin cash.  The result is that is recovered those losses during the recovery which is why the price went up a lot more than the other cryptos.
full member
Activity: 588
Merit: 100
When i look daily time frame of BCH, this coin is the same like others too high volatility so for better use it for swing trading. The price just look like pump dump, and to make profit we should trade it. And if you want to make investment in long term, prefer to chooce BTC because the fundamental stronger than BCH. Others than BTC chooce new project that has massive potential like ZIL and ONT for long term investment.
legendary
Activity: 1582
Merit: 1059
Hello community crypto, I am a newcomer to this market. My initial investment was a few ETH. I notice that in recent days, BCH value seems to increase quite high compared to the general market. > 10%. So, BCH has to be a good investment for long term to hold?

Look, I think you need to do your own research of course, but from my opinion I would say that for the Long Run, BCH is a terrible investment. The only advantage bcash has will be gone in the long run, but the lightning network will only get better with time. Even now, that segwit finally got adopted by the major exchanges, the fee dropped quite a bit, so bcash is no longer much faster and cheaper than BTC. BCH doesn't really have a good scaling solution, and bitcoin has one, so in the long term, BTC will only get better. For the short term it might be good, since all the alts dropped quite a lot, compared to BTC, so it's normal that if BTC continues to rise, they will rise more. Once all this speculation is done, and BTC gets adopted, and the real alts will survive, and I don't think BCH is one of them.
member
Activity: 490
Merit: 10
Bitcoin cash is like another cryptocurrency that if hold for a long will return a good amount to your initial capital. But I still trade Bitcoin and I maintain that Bitcoin is the only currency that has a good future when hold for long.
member
Activity: 294
Merit: 10
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Nearly tripled the price in the last month. Although many people say it is not suitable for investment, its breakthrough was incredible.
hero member
Activity: 2408
Merit: 584
I am still in a stage where I am weighing bch over eth. Though they are far different, we can't deny the fact that bch nearly beat eth's place last time. From that, I am aware that bch will stay longer in the market, thus a good time to buy and invest for a long term. They said, BCH will not last longer but I do
not believe the fud since bch is considered as peer to peer electronic cash then it will stay in the market as long as cryptocurrency exists.
BCH is a little mysterious to me. Sometimes I feel like this coin is going to be with us forever and can grow more than Ethereum and then I have this thought that it is not a trustworthy coin like Ethereum. BCH can leave its investors anytime without giving a warning. That is why I skip the trouble of going through choosing the best altcoin and suggest bitcoin as we cannot doubt it in any way.
full member
Activity: 434
Merit: 246
BCH also one of the best potential coin so we should invest in long term it will make big profit in future.
Really? I wouldn't be so sure about the long term. In any case, if you are a serious BCH trader, you should be aware of certain details about the entire BCH ecosystem. In particular, there are four major wallets you should be monitoring constantly.

I've learned this from an excellent medium article (which has probably been shared here on this forum, not sure):

https://medium.com/@btcWolves/bch-heading-towards-the-abyss-f1b2b9ec41f1

It is really worth your time, especially if you want to look at the whole problem from an emotionless trader perspective.
hero member
Activity: 1065
Merit: 510
Yeah but looks like you missed the train because safe buy zone was under $1000 where I have grabbed few of them and now a happy holder.  Grin

Most of the time when you will buy at peak price you will get stucked with bag holding for years and still some of the BCH holder are at loss because they have bought above $2k or even near $3k. So don't buy when it is pumping hard like right now, wait for some correction than you can make an entry.
But if you are planning to be a long term holder then buying anytime at any price should do and it doesn't matter if you caught up the dump because recovery would be always there but same as you said you would really be got stucked on the price and wait for long time unlike if you do wisely enter into correction times then you will surely see profits on shorter terms and you can able to make shorts and secure profits and then reinvest into other coins.Rinse and repeat this thing will bear fruits.
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1006
Yeah but looks like you missed the train because safe buy zone was under $1000 where I have grabbed few of them and now a happy holder.  Grin

Most of the time when you will buy at peak price you will get stucked with bag holding for years and still some of the BCH holder are at loss because they have bought above $2k or even near $3k. So don't buy when it is pumping hard like right now, wait for some correction than you can make an entry.
hero member
Activity: 1036
Merit: 520
I believe that crypto market is bullish in long term , But in long term !
Bch is one of them too but Bch would never be TC and would never take its place it always would be BCH.
member
Activity: 630
Merit: 20
I am still in a stage where I am weighing bch over eth. Though they are far different, we can't deny the fact that bch nearly beat eth's place last time. From that, I am aware that bch will stay longer in the market, thus a good time to buy and invest for a long term. They said, BCH will not last longer but I do
not believe the fud since bch is considered as peer to peer electronic cash then it will stay in the market as long as cryptocurrency exists.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1001
I would say no, bch has a hyped higher than today price, at that point a lot of people say bch is going to solve Bitcoin major problem, like the speed transactions, but in the end all investors are back to Bitcoin, and bch left without any clear intention, now bch only being used for pump and dump, so I will say to avoid bch fro investment, because it is quite hard to predict the price movement
legendary
Activity: 1932
Merit: 1273
I don't think Bitcoin Cash has any value, the only reason why Bitcoin Cash still exists is because of the pump and dumps scheme, nothing much at all. I don't the investment would be profitable in the long run when more people get more educated and acknowledge how scammy BCH is.
hero member
Activity: 1008
Merit: 537
Hello community crypto, I am a newcomer to this market. My initial investment was a few ETH. I notice that in recent days, BCH value seems to increase quite high compared to the general market. > 10%. So, BCH has to be a good investment for long term to hold?
BCH also one of the best potential coin so we should invest in long term it will make big profit in future. But lot of investors are looking to Bitcoin so we should invest in BTC this will more convenient platform. BCH was fastly down in the market but market is recover again so this will raise fastly. Finally BCH is good growing Cryptocurrency in current scenario.
newbie
Activity: 81
Merit: 0
Not really a big fan of BCH but I'm partially biased because i hate roger ver.
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1137
I notice that in recent days, BCH value seems to increase quite high

you are answering your own question here!
you said it yourself "in recent days". altcoins are like that, they get pumped only in a short time and that makes them good short term investments but terrible long term ones. they can get pumped in a short time, for example a pump that lasts 24 hours and in that window you can make a lot of profit but in the end investors always go back to bitcoin or fiat which matter most to them.
sr. member
Activity: 812
Merit: 251
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Hello community crypto, I am a newcomer to this market. My initial investment was a few ETH. I notice that in recent days, BCH value seems to increase quite high compared to the general market. > 10%. So, BCH has to be a good investment for long term to hold?
Of course if long-term investment, BCH will still have a lot of potential because this coin is considered to be the best growth coins in May since $ 700- $ 1800 and are trading volume is very high compared with other coins. I think BCH future may well outperform Bitcoin and BCH will soon reach $ 20,000 this year
sr. member
Activity: 1778
Merit: 305
Yes, this coin can now grow.
But after a month, he may fall below the price at which he bought, and will not return there.

Predicting the movement of the coin is impossible, there is only risk.
newbie
Activity: 170
Merit: 0
Hello community crypto, I am a newcomer to this market. My initial investment was a few ETH. I notice that in recent days, BCH value seems to increase quite high compared to the general market. > 10%. So, BCH has to be a good investment for long term to hold?
You kind of lost me here, title is talking of BTC and discussion is pointing in the direction of BCH anyway for your information BCH and BTC are two different cryptocurrencies Roll Eyes otherwise ever since the airdrop of BCH there were speculations that people will dump their coins which will lead to its crash but the opposite happened and bitcoin cash got pumped and surpassed ETH which was suppose to have been the second highest priced crypto coin, tbh cryptos are unpredictable and with BCH being in the class of the first generation cryptocurrencies I wouldnt count on it for long term investments but as I said cryptos are unpredictable, you need to risk a little and see how lucky you can be.
Sorry. I have fixed it. I think Bitcoin Cash (BCH), seems right at this time users have tried to support the BCH in a certain way. I can not identify because it's an easy growth to realize. Or the pumping process has been transformed.
full member
Activity: 581
Merit: 108
Hello community crypto, I am a newcomer to this market. My initial investment was a few ETH. I notice that in recent days, BCH value seems to increase quite high compared to the general market. > 10%. So, BCH has to be a good investment for long term to hold?
You kind of lost me here, title is talking of BTC and discussion is pointing in the direction of BCH anyway for your information BCH and BTC are two different cryptocurrencies Roll Eyes otherwise ever since the airdrop of BCH there were speculations that people will dump their coins which will lead to its crash but the opposite happened and bitcoin cash got pumped and surpassed ETH which was suppose to have been the second highest priced crypto coin, tbh cryptos are unpredictable and with BCH being in the class of the first generation cryptocurrencies I wouldnt count on it for long term investments but as I said cryptos are unpredictable, you need to risk a little and see how lucky you can be.
sr. member
Activity: 2226
Merit: 347
Hello community crypto, I am a newcomer to this market. My initial investment was a few ETH. I notice that in recent days, BCH value seems to increase quite high compared to the general market. > 10%. So, BCH has to be a good investment for long term to hold?
First of all i would like to welcome you into this forum and to this cryptoworld. Percentage gains doesnt mean they are really good to hold of for long term.Always go for the main coin which is bitcoin and bitcoin cash is just a forked coin.It do have value but when it comes to future i would remain still or trust bitcoin no matter what.Just remember one thing on investing to crypto,dont ever go on all in and invest on the money that you can just afford to lose.
newbie
Activity: 170
Merit: 0
Hello community crypto, I am a newcomer to this market. My initial investment was a few ETH. I notice that in recent days, BCH value seems to increase quite high compared to the general market. > 10%. So, BCH has to be a good investment for long term to hold?
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