Topic: Is bitcoin mining a problem of wasting energy? No (Read 600 times)

The CPU calculation was ideal for making decentralized money worldwide. This is because it may be, individuals continue to create gadgets dedicated to defeating CPUs, and so crypto mining has been a completely different industry. No private mine can keep bitcoin in its home. POW is no longer decentralized. Also, the purpose of any return for Bitcoin to roll out improvements is in the past.

The risks don't exist in most PoS coins, since PoW supporters seem unable to read anything not written by Greg Maxwell.
Greg Maxwell promote a Nothing at Stake Myth saying all PoS coin would suffer from multistakers staking on multiple forks ,
and the entire reason they would do this is an attempt to steal the majority of transaction fees.

Here are three major reasons that is bullshit.
1.  So far no one has bothered to even write a multi-staking client.  (Been over 6 years since PoS was introduced.)
2.  All stakers have to use it for it to weaken a coin's security. (One Large Staker not multi-staking would outstake the multi-staking dummies.)

3.  Any PoS coin using a design based on Sunny King original design , Destroys all of the fucking transaction fees.

*Their is literally nothing a multi-staking client can do but waste your personal time, write one and see how useless it is for you.*  

Making sure the N@S myth is just a nonsense story to mislead the people that don't actually explore the PoS technology.

Proof of Stake is Superior to Proof of Waste at any day and at any time.

Proof of Waste Miners go bankrupt all of the time due to excessive waste,

Never Once have you heard of a Proof of Stake Staker going bankrupt due to the cost of staking.

Energy Efficiently counts,
do you run a 120 watt light bulb in your lights or 12 watt LED bulbs that give off just as much light,
without wasting all of that energy on wasted heat.
So why would your want your PoW coin network to waste the energy required by entire counties,
when a PoS coin network could offer higher performance at lower costs and use so little power, no one would notice.  

FYI:
As far as exchanges go, anyone giving their coins to an exchange is giving control of those coins to an exchange.
Exchanges could profit more by stealing the coins and reselling somewhere else and closing up shop, instead of trying to control a network.
More profit in stealing coins , no matter PoW or PoS coins .  

And respectively the coins price will go up too because the miners are the ones who will actually mine when they get enough value for their miners and hence the overall value of bitcoins will go up indeed. But, I don't think there is a possible way to mine all bitcoins because each halving the reward is cut to half and this will make even harder each time to mine.

Crypto mining requires a lot of energy and if Pos can solve the problem then I believe there is no need to waste resources with Pow coins, I agree BTC is the boss and Pow is fine for it but other new coins should focus on Pos moving forward.

Bitcoin remains the dominant cryptocurrency for good reason -- POS is widely viewed as insecure. Ethereum has delayed their transition to POS by several years and backtracked to a hybrid POW-POS proposal because of the threats.


Aside from cases of pre-mining or insta-mining large stakes, exchanges remain the biggest threat to any sort of POS system:


These risks don't exist in Bitcoin.

You don't get the actual topic man, the thing is how POS is better than POW and since POS is already a good algorithm why do need need to waste energy to mine POW coins since POS is a simple solution and I do agree that POS has upper hand because no matter what but energy and resources are being wasted in POW indeed.

But, to buy those hardware you need to invest money and like you said if someone grabs a big number of coins they can control the network similarly if someone has a lot of coins they can sell off buy miners and actually be a whale too.

I see almost no problems with electricity for the extraction of bitcoins. In my opinion, this topic ceases to be relevant in our time, when technologies for the use of alternative sources of electricity production are rapidly developing and improving. Solar panels are now relatively cheap and their production is improving and growing. The sun is an almost eternal source of energy, we just need to learn how to properly use what nature gives us.

Basically, I was on the opinion that no matter even if energy is wasted still proof-of-work was better than proof-of-stake but after the quantum supremacy was proved by google and I read somewhere that they can mine all the bitcoins in a few minutes actually blew my mind and the is is actually where I believe proof of stake is better because there is no way someone with quantum supremacy can just mine p-o-s coins at all.

I mean we are already wasting so much electricity and resources and now there is a giant in the market who can just mine all the coins in some minutes so I start to feel like p-o-s is much better and while it gives more power to whales but it still is impeccable and there is nothing that can ever alter the mining speed unlike p-o-w coins.

You have a valid point but I always feel that PoS makes richer people more richer and poor gets poorer. The rich can always buy more coins and stake to get more coins and it's similar to gaining interest in money in bank. While in PoW there are a lot of things involved and you can't just mine more because you are rich.

Bitcoin could be mined with a simple GPU in starting and you don't have to buy anything to grab some bitcoins while to grab PoS coins you must buy those coins first and then you can earn interest on that. Plus, PoS gives much more power to someone if they can grab a big amount of coins from the market and loosing the actually meaning of decentralization.

there is no denying that the electrical energy used is huge, big in everything. both of the consumption and the price incurred because electricity costs are very expensive. I strongly agree with the above that to immediately make changes with other resources, even though at the beginning it will cost a fair amount, but for the next trip it will feel very profitable. there is no time to say late for changes as long as the price of electricity will continue to increase in price.

Actually I always saw it as "freezing" energy, you can always re-spend it later on and keep it circling, yeah bitcoin uses this much energy as of now but then in the future you can always keep that energy working.

Or maybe I just don't understand the true benefit of PoS

You can actually use energy wisely , the renewable sources of energy are not new , people are using them since a long time , it does need a healthy investment at first but at the same time prices of these renewable resources are getting more and more convenient.
It does use a lot of energy , the mining causes a lot of inconvenience for the people, there are people who illegally are doing it and some are even putting up the softwares in computers of cyber cafes just to protect themselves of the hefty price of electricity bill.

I feel like it also depends on the rigs used by the miners. I read back in the days that people can use ASIC miner rather than using their usual GPU for mining Bitcoin. In terms of consumption energy, I am not sure if in the future we could make renewable energy to power up these mining so that it could at least lessen the usage of electricity, because in some countries that becomes the barrier for people to mine cryptos.

I can't agree that it is problem of wasting energy. Our problem is what we don't use alternative resources of energy which are eco-friendly.

- When they consider this in the role of someone who does not invest in bitcoin mining, we will probably feel this is a waste of energy, environmental pollution and not profitable when the costs of mining are rising too fast but the views of some individuals are unlikely to provide a reasonable answer. Mining bitcoin will waste energy or not, it depends on the benefits we get, complaining about environmental pollution, so many industries are creating worse things, Bitcoin mining is only a negligible part

           Based on what I see so far, it is really a waste of energy. Mining nowadays are not really cost efficient, because instead of earning, it will only boost your energy consumption and at the same time not that really beneficial for the environment. We all know that theres a lot of improvisation needed to build mining rigs and it is also proved that it needs more energy, also don't tell me those equipments doesn't need maintenance?

Most of the mining is done through excess energy produced mostly by "green" energy sources. The carbon footprint of Bitcoin is probably a lot lower from what some services provide, as they use the average carbon footprint for the industrial sector. These results are not scientific correct.

I believe this depends on who is doing the job, some people are experts at what they do. besides there are many other ways to earn bitcoin, one may desire to invest them and double profit or even trade them.

Today one of the things we can do with the use of cryptocurrency and your computer is the mining many people getting mine some bitcoin to their computer and as a reward they can get a bitcoin. Still, there are people does not believe the capability of the mining because they think it is just a waste of time it can be possible because if you don't have enough or capability to mine you will lose your money too because mining is taking a lot of time that your computer is on and that consumption of energy is too large the coin you earned are not enough to pay your bills but if you are in a country with low market price of electricity and you have a good computer to mine you can now make a lot of profit every single day and one of the things you need to do is to maintain your pc to make more efficient earnings.

Old mining rigs are long ROIed, they still generate coins when they work as a heater, and since most of the electricity that is consumed by mining rigs become heat, if 1/10 of those electricity can become bitcoin, it is still more efficient than a pure heater. And that's why the network will never go down in hash rate, because old mining rigs can still work as a heater

Of course I still think the waste of electricity is huge in POW, I do see benefits of POS, but that model is quite close to company share holder, need to have further discussion about its implication

Was thinking of this the other day: What happens to these miners when all 21 bitcoins have been mined? Will they just stop mining because they will no longer be paid from receiving those block rewards?
The answer is no.
They will still be paid by the miners fee namely the transactions fees which still remain quite high. I watched one video showing how one btc pool receives $500k per block on those fees alone.

This is a fair point. PoS is not better at everything, just like the Lightning Network. Moreover, I don't think the attitude of reducing electricity consumption is something we should adopt in general as a strategy to fight global warming. Reducing waste makes sense, but energy consumption seems to be something different. Perhaps it's just because I was influenced by the idea of the Kardashev scale where energy plays a crucial role. I am not a climate skeptic, at the same time, so I think that something should be done. Namely, we should work on clean energy solutions. Some research suggests that mining largely uses clean energy, by the way.

1. The 4 mining pools actually needs to coordinate the attack and mutually agree to everything.
2. The attack would work only assuming that the individual miners don't switch off their miners or switch mining pools to prevent the attack.
3. Because the pool owners clearly know that manipulating the chain is going to have a positive effect with the price right? ? ?

Nope, your analyses are off.
The Costs to mine gold, are based on human payroll , equipment costs, petroleum to run the equipment,
all of which have variable factors.
This means the price to mine gold can increase or decrease , but the final decision is always , is the mining currently profitable.

In BTC, Miners with older rigs always stop mining, no more than 2 years after purchase, as the ASICS are no longer profitable.
You confuse a running network with bitcoin earning a profit.

A network can be run at a loss, if the miners or stakers have the personal resources to do so.
Problem with PoW is the hardware costs and energy wasted exceed the average man's ability to continue ,
you can think running a non-profitable ASIC for heat is efficient ,
but the truth is running an better heater is more profitable and cost efficient on a personal basis.

PoW miners go bankrupt all of the time,
You have never heard of a Proof of Stake Staker ever going bankrupt from staking.
Reason being the energy efficiently means that for less than $80 per month (less than most people cable's bill),
an individual can continue to support a strong and secure PoS network.

The Money losing Bitcoin running from your basement, will be neither secure or strong.
And a $50 electric radiator would be better at heating your basement.  

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https://lifesly.com/mining-companies-in-bankruptcy/
Mining Companies In Bankruptcy


Proof of Waste is turning out to be Proof of Financial Losses  

FYI:
BTC price is in $7k range even lower than when the article was written.

How do you relate this to your findings? Currently, miner get paid 12.5Bitcoin for validating new transactions on the Blockchain, which I see as profitable compared to their energy consumption in the process of validation. We should always get some facts straight before share them to other members who understand the system. Bitcoin as PoW algorithm made it more decentralized than others and power consumption matches the reward for the Miners.

You seems proved my observation: Gold miners stopping their mining or not, does not change the mining difficulty of gold, thus the energy barrier for mining one ounce of gold stays the same regardless what miners do

However for bitcoin, if lots of miners with old rigs stopped their mining due to unprofitable, the difficulty will go down significantly, thus the cost of mining one bitcoin will become much cheaper. It is self-adjusting, depends on how much people join the competetion. True, if not a single person on planet join the competetion, then the price will drop to zero, but I can guarantee you that won't happen, since I have my mining rigs running 24/7/365 heating my basement

Nope,
when actual physical mining operational costs does not match the current price,
miners temporary close the mines which stops all energy used to mine new gold.

They just cease paying for people and resources to mine the gold, they still own the gold mine,
once the price of gold returns mining into profitability they start mining again.
This also does not stop current gold owners from trading gold.

Contrast this with bitcoin flawed design, if the BTC miners take a month pause due to not being profitable the whole network stops.
No bitcoins can be traded with anyone.
Gold does not have that critical flaw,
plus it has uses in the real world that always use up excess supply once prices fall, bitcoin does not.

So yes Virginia, Gold is a better store of value than bitcoin could ever pretend to be.  

FYI:
Contrast Proof of Stake coins, their energy efficient design means they can run 24x7 and no one ever goes bankrupt doing it.
While many PoW miners go bankrupt at every halving, due to the wastefulness in PoW design.

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For the Clueless such as your self.

https://hackernoon.com/bitmain-now-has-more-than-50-of-bitcoin-network-hash-rate-trouble-ahead-cfd5ea9cf101

No one has complained that gold mining wasted too much energy, since that is a must. You must overcome certain natural energy barrier to mine gold, there is no other way.This energy requirement is fixed regardless of gold's price

However, for cryptocurrency, you don't need to overcome a fixed natural energy barrier to get bitcoin. The only barrier of getting bitcoin comes from competition, it is other people that created an energy barrier for you to successfully mine bitcoin. And this energy barrier changes depends on coin value. During early days of mining, the barrier was very low

Given it is a barrier generated from competition, the competition model can also be designed so that it takes other type of energy input. Besides electricity, is there any other energy input that is more efficient?

Since fiat money can be regarded as universal form of energy (it can exchange any kind of energy source like petroleum, coal, nuclear material, etc...). By design a competition model based purely on money itself, like bidding, it will achieve the same effect but without any waste: You win the bid, you get new coin, if you lose the bid, you lose nothing. While in traditional competition model, the one who lose the competition also wasted lots of energy

For maximum decentralization, in my opinion, still PoS coins are better suited, because. with them there is an opportunity for mining even on very low-power computers, unlike PoW, which was first on computers, and then evolved to ASIC's level.

Here's the deal, people are generating energy from energy sources just to supply electricity, telephone, business services, and allot more. And that consumes energy. Bitcoin mining is consuming huge amount of electricity, burns tons and tons of coals just to make sure we have our transactions being verified, and new blocks are being produced consistently. All of that is for the sake of providing us services. Meaning to say, that if we have a reason why we need bitcoin mining, how come could we think of reasons to say that mining is a waste of energy?

Though, what we can do is to make the way how we consume energy through mining more efficient, thus, considering the use of other consensus algorithm.

Bitcoin is worth mining for and will really make you earn a lot of profit. As the news are coming, they say that bitcoin is again going in a downward movement and it is really so sad to see a news like that. Most people are hoping for the bitcoin that it will make them richer and grow a lot more but they should know first the advantages and disadvantages of it. In this country, bitcoin isn't that popular because they aren't knowledgeable and the promotion of bitcoin is limited. The electricity used in mining bitcoin is not a problem if you're in a well-developed country like US, Japan, Singapore, and etc. There's no problem and energy wasn't wasted because of the productivity of the bitcoin miners and how they work hard.

Sometimes it's just a waste of energy because the thing is the amount of bitcoin that they are mined was just bigger than the electricity bill of the used energy by the bitcoin mining so I say that somehow it is just a waste of energy because there are a lot of kilowatts that is used by but not suitable enough for the bitcoin mining so it is kind of wasting some of our energy especially right now that the electricity supply was not enough to sustain all the needs of the people.

No need to imagine, it's already been done -- at least with Delegated POS. https://twitter.com/VitalikButerin/status/1234522463129800709

Poloniex, Binance and Huobi were caught staking customer STEEM and using it to attack the existing DPOS consensus. They've done a pretty good job of brushing the attack under the rug, but the evidence is rather damning.

POS hasn't been solved yet. It may never be. POW is the best we have, for now and the foreseeable future.

Of course not. Bitcoin mining is not a waste of energy because of this bitcoin mining we will be able to mine bitcoin and make a supply of for all the world and this is a way of earning money so I can say that it is not a way of wasting energy, perhaps those people who are saying that it is just a way of wasting energy is just like nothing happens but in bitcoin mining people are earning by doing this.

I really understand the security aspect of PoW, which is why am a bit careful when PoW is being criticized. I just think this shouldn't be ignored at the expense of the environment, decentralization and earth natural resources for making mining hardware.
We don't need to hold on strongly to something that could become worse in energy consumption than alot of other similar things... and worse still, make the community filled with guilt when confronted.

No,it's not cheap,convenient and affordable.It's still expensive and the production of such solar panels damages the environment.
Launching artificial suns in near orbit?WTF is this BS,OP?I've never heard about this science fiction BS.
The future of energy production is in geothermal energy and the nuclear reactors that use thorium instead of uranium.Thorium is more affordable than uranium and produces 10 times less nuclear waste.
Anyway,BTC mining isn't wasting energy.BTC has value and the electricity used to produce BTC has value.
If we use your kind of logic,then turning the lights in your house is actually wasting energy.

Nowadays, energy production technologies are being actively developed using alternative sources. This is especially true for solar panels. The technology of their production is constantly being improved. I recently read that the Chinese have switched to the production of larger panels with a side of 210 millimeters, while their efficiency has increased. The production of such electricity is very cheap, convenient and affordable for everyone. Therefore, I do not think that the extraction of bitcoins will be a big problem in terms of energy consumption. The sun is enough for the next several billion years. In addition, humanity is already approaching the possibility of launching artificial suns into near-earth orbit. It will be a ball with a diameter of only six meters. A few of these "suns" will make it possible to provide light and heat to our entire planet.

CPU computation was perfect for creating a decentralized global crypto currency. But people went on making dedicated device to outperform CPU and the crypto mining has been a whole new industry. No longer can a person mine any bitcoin in his home. POW is not decentralized anymore. And it's too late for bitcoin to make a change.

So.. AntPool + BTC.com = 51%? Math checks out lmao.

Imagine being Bitmain, the largest ASIC manufacturer having the latest ASICS months before selling to the public.
Not only will they always be able to outmine the general public, the stupid public pays them to continue their monopoly.
Bitcoin is already centralized, Bitmain just splits their over 51% dominance in multiple pools, so the clueless stay clueless.

Staking Coins don't require all new hardware every 1½ years,
ASICS all require complete replacement every 1½ years, that is a hugh investment in wasted boat anchors.  

*Note to Profit, you have to sell coins.
In PoS, this lowers the % you control.
In PoW, you can sell every coin you mine and never lose any % of control.

Yes, but it could end up making Bitcoin centralized. Think about it. Imagine being a huge exchange with a lot of PoS coins in custody? Solely from being a whale, you automatically have a significant influence over the network. In contrast to PoW whereas you'd actually have to dedicate money to buy hardware.

It is a wasting because it could be done with staking, that way the could shouldn't need miners. And i think this is why ETH is moving to PoS.

And it's a waste if the energy cost is bigger than the mined coins...

First of all, not all crypto needs to consume power. The “waste of energy” is the barrier to protect bitcoin with competence. This is the nature of PoW.

Moreover, in 2018, the total electricity consumed by bitcoin is the same amount as Ireland, the country. However, the total market value of bitcoin was about the same size of Ireland M1 which consumes much more resources than just electricity, In order to support a country’s M1. From this point of the view, PoW the consensus, actually is more efficient than any other form of modern social consensus.

About bitcoin and crypto refers to the article below:

https://www.mycrypto101.net/post/is-bitcoin-mining-a-problem-of-wasting-energy