Is bitcoin pump n dump illegal? | Bitcointalksearch.org

Harley997

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Quote from: metstijl on May 29, 2014, 03:37:09 PM

Just question many confuse.

It depends on the level of money involved.

If you successfully make 20-30k then, yes you will likely be prosecuted.

If you successfully make only a few hundred dollars and very little money is affected then you are probably safe from prosecution.

Please remember that it is ultimately up to the judge/jury to interpret law.

Prior to 2008 there were many actions in the securities market that were not prosecuted. Post 2008 there have been many guilty pleas (with the threat of a trial) for insider trading. IMO the accusations, even if proved true is not insider trading as defined by the law. The vast majority of cases have resulted in guilty pleas or involved witnesses who have plead guilty.

It is all about who interprets the law.

You may ask what does the level of money involved have to do with anything......if a small enough amount of money is involved then it is unlikely anyone will notice what you did.

ReserviorHunt

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No regulation atm, so no.

snaildvorak

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I don't think so. It's free market BTW.

Ron~Popeil

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I wish I had enough bit coin to pump or dump. I wouldn't but just to have enough to do it would be great.

Philly

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I think it's not legal or illegal, but still undecided. Like someone else stated future laws could well be implemented retroactively, thus applying to today. I would never orchestrate PnD's myself though, good profit can be made by just trading

zimmah

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i believe pump and dump is not illegal, is it?

And who's going to do anything about it?

Besides i don't think bitcoin is pumped and dumped, it's just basic 'tides'

teukon

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Quote from: Ron~Popeil on May 30, 2014, 06:40:04 PM

Where is it illegal exactly? There is no law against buying a bunch of something then selling it. Insider trading is illegal but it is not a pure pump and dump.

I believe the contention is in the false public statements that the pumper makes. If these statements constitute fraud in the eyes of the law then the traditional pump-and-dump as it applies to Bitcoin would probably be illegal.

Of course, just "buying and selling" with a certain intent (no false public statements) may be illegal in some jurisdictions. I guess it really depends on how Bitcoin is defined and what the appropriate financial regulations are.

cr1776

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Quote from: Ron~Popeil on May 30, 2014, 06:40:04 PM

Quote from: odolvlobo on May 30, 2014, 01:38:58 PM

Quote from: TheTruth4 on May 30, 2014, 01:14:55 PM

It's legal of course.
But here's the thing: pump and dump schemes might hurt short term market confidence but might also strengthen long term market confidence. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. I wouldn't attribute the latest sell offs entirely to pumping and dumping.

It is not legal.

While I don't have much sympathy for the greedy fools that are victims of the fraud, I don't think that pump and dump could ever be considered a good thing.

Where is it illegal exactly? There is no law against buying a bunch of something then selling it. Insider trading is illegal but it is not a pure pump and dump.

It may be legal some places, illegal others. In the US it is certainly illegal for tradable securities. Does bitcoin fall under that definition? I am sure the SEC etc would try to make it fit if they had an interest in prosecuting someone, and given the nature of the current government of men not laws (instead of laws, not men), no one can predict the outcome. Anyway, the laws vary by jurisdiction, bitcoin is notoriously jurisdiction agnostic, and hence hard to regulate.

I don't think anyone knows for sure the answer, but in the US, EU, UK etc, I would be very cautious doing a pump-and-dump. Look at these:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_manipulation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pump_and_dump
http://www.scribd.com/doc/50195934/14726578-How-to-Define-Illegal-Price-Manipulation-by-Albert-S-Kyle-and-S-Viswanathan

GoldSilverBitcoin

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I believe things can, in reality, be persecuted retroactively. So future laws can be applied to today...

twiifm

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Quote from: Ron~Popeil on May 30, 2014, 06:40:04 PM

Quote from: odolvlobo on May 30, 2014, 01:38:58 PM

Quote from: TheTruth4 on May 30, 2014, 01:14:55 PM

It's legal of course.
But here's the thing: pump and dump schemes might hurt short term market confidence but might also strengthen long term market confidence. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. I wouldn't attribute the latest sell offs entirely to pumping and dumping.

It is not legal.

While I don't have much sympathy for the greedy fools that are victims of the fraud, I don't think that pump and dump could ever be considered a good thing.

Where is it illegal exactly? There is no law against buying a bunch of something then selling it. Insider trading is illegal but it is not a pure pump and dump.

Its illegal for equities. Bitcoin isn't regulated so its not illegal YET

knightcoin

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is it pump'n'dump just a seller strategy Huh

they're cheers up, then sell ...

Ron~Popeil

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Quote from: odolvlobo on May 30, 2014, 01:38:58 PM

Quote from: TheTruth4 on May 30, 2014, 01:14:55 PM

It's legal of course.
But here's the thing: pump and dump schemes might hurt short term market confidence but might also strengthen long term market confidence. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. I wouldn't attribute the latest sell offs entirely to pumping and dumping.

It is not legal.

While I don't have much sympathy for the greedy fools that are victims of the fraud, I don't think that pump and dump could ever be considered a good thing.

Where is it illegal exactly? There is no law against buying a bunch of something then selling it. Insider trading is illegal but it is not a pure pump and dump.

odolvlobo

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Quote from: TheTruth4 on May 30, 2014, 01:14:55 PM

It's legal of course.
But here's the thing: pump and dump schemes might hurt short term market confidence but might also strengthen long term market confidence. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. I wouldn't attribute the latest sell offs entirely to pumping and dumping.

~~It is not legal.~~ Edit: If bitcoin is not a security, then section 17(a) doesn't apply.

While I don't have much sympathy for the greedy fools that are victims of the fraud, I don't think that pump and dump could ever be considered a good thing.

TheTruth4

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Altcoins are riding on the coat tails of BTC right now as it is the center of gravity in crypto currency with its 10+ billion market cap. Markets needs interim corrections so long term corrections are less violent. If we didn't have BTC sellers, how else can BTC be distributed from the wealthy to the not so wealthy? How could people buy in at a lower price?

TheTruth4

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It's legal of course.
But here's the thing: pump and dump schemes might hurt short term market confidence but might also strengthen long term market confidence. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. I wouldn't attribute the latest sell offs entirely to pumping and dumping.

odolvlobo

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Quote from: atc1 on May 30, 2014, 11:05:15 AM

Quote from: knightcoin on May 29, 2014, 04:34:39 PM

pump'n'dump is not exclusive to cryptocurrency ...

Pump'n'dump happens everyday in stock markets. Apart from being highly profitable,it's not fraud and no one gets put behind bars for something like that.

Wow. You are so wrong. Please click here: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=pump+and+dump+convictions

atc1

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Quote from: knightcoin on May 29, 2014, 04:34:39 PM

pump'n'dump is not exclusive to cryptocurrency ...

Pump'n'dump happens everyday in stock markets. Apart from being highly profitable,it's not fraud and no one gets put behind bars for something like that.

RodeoX

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The revolution will be monetized!

Without pump&dump there would be no alt coins. Cheesy

odolvlobo

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Of course it is illegal. It is fraud. Bitcoin is not immune to prosecution for fraud: Trendon Shavers is looking at jail time for running his Bitcoin ponzi scheme. It doesn't matter if Bitcoin is regulated or not.

Edit: If bitcoin is not a security, then section 17(a) doesn't apply.

giantdragon

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What country will regulate?!! If any do, exchanges in other countries will just use advantage to attract customers from it!

Amph

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Quote from: HarHarHar9965 on May 29, 2014, 05:58:49 PM

give it a few years. it'll be regulated just the same as penny stocks or any other illiquid instrument and i cant imagine pump and dump will be legal.

how?

all coins will become anon in the future(bitcoin also), no way you can track all those crappy alt traded for btc(not fiat)

even if you can block exchange, they can be traded via forum, it's really impossible to regulate this chaos

Shallow

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SmartFi - EARN, LEND & TRADE

No, cause bitcoin is currently like the wild west where anything goes Tongue

Mervyn_Pumpkinhead

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pump'n'dump is a gamble to everyone... if you begin to pump, then maybe there's a whale lurking for a chance to dump on your pump.. but maybe it will pull other people in, who will buy after you and will rise the price enough, so you you can dump with profit... who knows.

Well, like with every gamble, you can lean the probability towards your goals by knowing more then other gamblers. In the crypto world, the best informed gamblers are the same people who own the exchanges. They have access to information that isn't public and that can be vital in analyzing the market.

For this reason, I think that the crypto world is more concentrated that most could imagine. The exchanges aren't only raking in money by service fees, but by insider trading. I wouldn't be surprised if many of the exchanges are actually owned by the same people but have different public facades.

cr1776

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Quote from: metstijl on May 29, 2014, 03:37:09 PM

Just question many confuse.

It also varies by jurisdiction. What may be illegal one place may not be illegal another. So without specific young where you are asking about it is difficult to answer.

Mayuyu48

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not illegal, bitcoin still don't have any regulations
pump-dump scheme based on capitalist free market, somebody with more money / BTC can steer the prices Grin

maybe in the future we will see regulations about BTC trading, i.e : short-sell is not allowed in BTC trade

DolanDuck

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In this early stage of bitcoin life, with no regulations among countries, pump and dumps of btc or any other alt currency aren't illegal.
Maybe in the future it will be, but I think the time isn't near at all.

Coinsera

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Quote from: Gimmelfarb on May 29, 2014, 04:43:39 PM

until we see more clear regulations come, and i'm sure we will see more in the next 3-5 years, it's the wild wild west. who is going to do anything about it? not the SEC, not the CFTC. not yet, anyway.

Right
Actually delay in the cleared regulations are due to different states and countries have different view on this currency. Because all the way this is property and earnings should be taxed.

Thanks

teukon

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Quote from: Benjig on May 29, 2014, 06:34:49 PM

I think pump and dumps in bitcoin are almost not happening at this point, the alt coins are the ones that some whales use only to orchest their pump and dumps, like fontas.

I'd love for this to be true but I fear that simple pump-and-dumps with Bitcoin may well be profitable given enough funds. Certainly, the bitcoin market has been slowly building resistance to such schemes in the past few years and I very much hope this continues to the point where even advanced and well-timed pump-and-dumps by very large holders are almost always unprofitable.

Benjig

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I think pump and dumps in bitcoin are almost not happening at this point, the alt coins are the ones that some whales use only to orchest their pump and dumps, like fontas. but be aware of those pump announces , they really dont pump the coin, they wait until you pumped it so they can dump all their coins over you at the top of the bubble.

tooil

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Most alt coins operate this way.

And many of the buyers are experience crypto users. So it is a shark eat shark world.

HarHarHar9965

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give it a few years. it'll be regulated just the same as penny stocks or any other illiquid instrument and i cant imagine pump and dump will be legal.

teukon

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Quote from: jeffersonairplane on May 29, 2014, 05:04:36 PM

Not now it isn't. As said above, years from now I can guarantee there will be more strict regulations on this type of stuff when it becomes more and more popular.

Maybe not a guarantee, but highly probable. Fortunately, it is fairly likely that distributed forms of exchanging wealth will be sufficiently well-developed to render such regulations ineffective.

knightcoin

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jeffersonairplane

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www.bitkong.com

Not now it isn't. As said above, years from now I can guarantee there will be more strict regulations on this type of stuff when it becomes more and more popular.

Gimmelfarb

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until we see more clear regulations come, and i'm sure we will see more in the next 3-5 years, it's the wild wild west. who is going to do anything about it? not the SEC, not the CFTC. not yet, anyway.

knightcoin

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pump'n'dump is not exclusive to cryptocurrency ...

gentlemand

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Welt Am Draht

No. Not at all. It's not regulated in the way conventional markets often are. The price is at the mercy of anyone in a mercurial mood with sufficient cash.

metstijl

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Just question many confuse.

Topic: Is bitcoin pump n dump illegal? (Read 3482 times)