Is bitcoin transaction fees fair? - page 44.

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Quote from: 1Referee on June 29, 2017, 02:40:01 AM

Quote from: HeRetiK on June 29, 2017, 02:26:56 AM

Faucet earners take much more blockspace that could be used for other transactions, why should they pay less per kb than anyone else?

In fact, faucet payments are a plague to the network, and thus should at all times be made off-chain. I noticed that quite some faucets are doing this already, which is something I greatly appreciate (although I understand that it mainly happens to save on fees). All these faucet farmers are getting paid directly in their Xapo or Coinbase account, which takes a decent bit of weight off the network. Due to external fees not being free anymore, these faucet farmers need to accumulate their "earnings" for a good while, before they can request an on-chain withdrawal

How can it be so?

Why are the faucet payments a plague to the network? Just because they are small? Are you going to say next that they are close to being spam transactions? While the amounts transferred may indeed be tiny, I can't possibly agree that these transactions should be discarded or just effectively prohibited, for example, via high fees, as is the case now. In fact, by cutting these transactions off we are walking on a very slippery path, which will make Bitcoin into a sort of Berkshire Hathaway share worth hundreds of thousands of dollars per piece but without its base in the form of real businesses that prop its value up. Berkshire Hathaway is not backed up by its price, while Bitcoin is, in a certain sense, so excluding small transactions is like shooting yourself in the foot by undermining Bitcoin's own user base (which is what its future ultimately depends on)

revo1044

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yeah bitcoin transaction fees fees fair i think that is 0.0005 .

rickbig092

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Everyone can select the fees they want, you can pay 28 s/byte or 200/byte and probably get confirmed with both but of course, later and with very less priority.
fee is determined by us bitcoin users and how much we offer, I think that is a fair way to calculate it.

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Quote from: shine1123 on June 29, 2017, 04:47:23 AM

Quote from: DoublerHunter on June 29, 2017, 04:40:38 AM

Quote from: hisuka2987 on June 29, 2017, 04:36:31 AM

The fees aren't fair for the senders considering how high it is and keeping on rising BUT it is how it works, we are the ones determining the fees by how high we are willing to pay to get included quickly - Since bitcoin has no set fees -.

We can't do about it because whether we like to set a low fees it will not work because our transaction will just get stuck but we need to understand that the high fees is made by the continuous demand of the people in the market and also in the network because people now are just transacting even more often that makes the network crowded so it creates traffics and increased in the fees to solve it.

Actually its still works even you set a low fees but you will takes mores time to wait, at least not below than 0.0001 or you will wait more to get confirmed. For low amount transaction, the fee is quite small, but if you do some big transaction, the fee also become big. I don't know the calculation though.

Based on our confirmation requirement we can make changes to the transaction fee. With some wallet this is not available which makes us the fool with the increased transaction fee. This doesn't affect the large volume transactions, but with small transactions paying an eight to ten dollar fee for transaction of 150$ is simply unfair. Expect this will get change by the upcoming years.

amacl1n

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More than bitcoin price rise is the spike in bitcoin use, before the default fee was 0.0001 and it was enough, but right now the fee for getting include in 3-4 blocks is averagely around 0.0005 which is around x5, let alone with the x6 increase in price, collectively we are paying a huge fee compared to before...

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Quote from: DoublerHunter on June 29, 2017, 04:40:38 AM

Quote from: hisuka2987 on June 29, 2017, 04:36:31 AM

The fees aren't fair for the senders considering how high it is and keeping on rising BUT it is how it works, we are the ones determining the fees by how high we are willing to pay to get included quickly - Since bitcoin has no set fees -.

We can't do about it because whether we like to set a low fees it will not work because our transaction will just get stuck but we need to understand that the high fees is made by the continuous demand of the people in the market and also in the network because people now are just transacting even more often that makes the network crowded so it creates traffics and increased in the fees to solve it.

Actually its still works even you set a low fees but you will takes mores time to wait, at least not below than 0.0001 or you will wait more to get confirmed. For low amount transaction, the fee is quite small, but if you do some big transaction, the fee also become big. I don't know the calculation though.

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Quote from: hisuka2987 on June 29, 2017, 04:36:31 AM

The fees aren't fair for the senders considering how high it is and keeping on rising BUT it is how it works, we are the ones determining the fees by how high we are willing to pay to get included quickly - Since bitcoin has no set fees -.

We can't do about it because whether we like to set a low fees it will not work because our transaction will just get stuck but we need to understand that the high fees is made by the continuous demand of the people in the market and also in the network because people now are just transacting even more often that makes the network crowded so it creates traffics and increased in the fees to solve it.

hisuka2987

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The fees aren't fair for the senders considering how high it is and keeping on rising BUT it is how it works, we are the ones determining the fees by how high we are willing to pay to get included quickly - Since bitcoin has no set fees -.

1Referee

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Quote from: HeRetiK on June 29, 2017, 02:26:56 AM

Faucet earners take much more blockspace that could be used for other transactions, why should they pay less per kb than anyone else?

In fact, faucet payments are a plague to the network, and thus should at all times be made off-chain. I noticed that quite some faucets are doing this already, which is something I greatly appreciate (although I understand that it mainly happens to save on fees). All these faucet farmers are getting paid directly in their Xapo or Coinbase account, which takes a decent bit of weight off the network. Due to external fees not being free anymore, these faucet farmers need to accumulate their "earnings" for a good while, before they can request an on-chain withdrawal.

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Quote from: HeRetiK on June 29, 2017, 02:26:56 AM

It's a free market, no one's entitled to anything, there's no such thing as fair or unfair.

Quote from: daringdiscovered on June 28, 2017, 10:36:20 PM

Yeah, right. Of course in order to be wise on this transaction fee, we have to process a huge amount of bitcoin every transaction so this huge transaction fee is going to worth it, but if you have a lot of bitcoins then this won't be a problem to you, this will be unfair to the FAUCETs earners since they are only earning so little out of it.

Faucet earners take much more blockspace that could be used for other transactions, why should they pay less per kb than anyone else?

Exactly. And they have to either pay more or wait forever for the first confirmation. Everything's fair imo, but there are always people who say it is not. If you want it fast - you pay more, simple as that.

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It's a free market, no one's entitled to anything, there's no such thing as fair or unfair.

Quote from: daringdiscovered on June 28, 2017, 10:36:20 PM

Yeah, right. Of course in order to be wise on this transaction fee, we have to process a huge amount of bitcoin every transaction so this huge transaction fee is going to worth it, but if you have a lot of bitcoins then this won't be a problem to you, this will be unfair to the FAUCETs earners since they are only earning so little out of it.

Faucet earners take much more blockspace that could be used for other transactions, why should they pay less per kb than anyone else?

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Quote from: btcney on June 27, 2017, 05:48:24 AM

Quote from: buwaytress on June 25, 2017, 02:36:42 PM

Fees have definitely evolved and there is so much evidence to show that it has no correlation with price. Two days ago, the network was BELOW 2,000 transactions and I would have loved to test a 5 sat/byte tx but was unable to access my wallet then.

But today, I made a transaction with 35.9 sats/byte and it confirmed in exactly 60 minutes - at a time when there were about 11,000 transactions. I paid about $0.47 cents for almost $900. That's just over 0.05% of my total. I chose a time that the network was relatively free, I chose to transact one chunk rather than several. And my fee corresponded to those environments.

https://blockchain.info/tx/ab7b64a65de124ef55c2e09747a9c8dc433af8d4097cba8acf8d5469edbb8610

That's fair to me by any measurement.

I'm not sure how you achieved this, because 35 sats/byte is definitely very low even when fees were at 0.0001 BTC per transaction basically for any size. Did you use a transaction accelerator or something? I pay like 300 sats per byte and my transaction still doesn't get confirmed within first 3 blocks.

maybe you're just super lucky. But more likely than not, you used a transaction accelerator.

No I did not. Check the Transaction ID and the block. It was mined by Antpool. The only way you can get them to "accelerate" your tx is to pay them or get someone you know on the pool to include it. To my knowledge, the only free acceleration offered is that of ViaBTC.

As I said, time transactions when the network is light. Check with bitcoinfees.21.co to see how low you can go. At the time I didn, 31 sats was enough to get it within 4 blocks. And the estimation is very accurate as I've experienced.

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Quote from: aldrian09 on June 27, 2017, 07:54:57 AM

Bitcoin transaction fees are only fair if your transaction is big but if you will only send 0.01 and you need to pay for 0.001 for the fee then that's unfair. And sometimes even if you pay a highers fee the transaction still takes time and that is frustrating.

Yeah, right. Of course in order to be wise on this transaction fee, we have to process a huge amount of bitcoin every transaction so this huge transaction fee is going to worth it, but if you have a lot of bitcoins then this won't be a problem to you, this will be unfair to the FAUCETs earners since they are only earning so little out of it.

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Quote from: zedsacs on June 28, 2017, 12:21:47 PM

Actually, it's really fair eh, I mean we all know that last year we don't really have a transction fee because we all know that time that bitcoin is just only 700$ and it's not that really big. But compare now, it'a almost 3k$ and it's just fsir to have a transaction fee to be also a help for thosr miners

Long time ago, bitcoin's fee is about 0.0001 and also the low price of bitcoin make it even cheaper but today alongside with the significant increases in bitcoin price, and a number of users, the scalability issues make the fees increasing significantly, from 0.0001 to around 0.0008 for average 226bytes transaction size. It's ain't fair and I can't even see the fair thing on this.

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Quote from: ss890 on June 28, 2017, 10:01:47 AM

I believe that is completely fair deal because with increased price there is increased investment into bitcoin. Ultimately miners are getting huge load onto them, the network difficulty in addition to this has also increased. All these things has led to increased miners fees.

Yes you've got a point there but I think it's much fair when it will turn out like this:
Yes as increase in value there's an increase in fee, but it will be reasonable when it's a fast transaction. Like you pay a lot for the transaction fee hence it always took long to confirm.
It will be better if they'll lower the transaction fee even it's slow transaction, that will be just for us. And vise versa.

malikusama

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It is totally unfair, but we don't have any other option for that. Bitcoin have the best characteristics as a currency but this is a disadvantage of decentralized currency.

Eternu

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Quote from: zedsacs on June 28, 2017, 12:21:47 PM

Actually, it's really fair eh, I mean we all know that last year we don't really have a transction fee because we all know that time that bitcoin is just only 700$ and it's not that really big. But compare now, it'a almost 3k$ and it's just fsir to have a transaction fee to be also a help for thosr miners

I do not agree with you, at least not in total. Today i wanted to pay out about 40 dollars worth bitcoins, and i paid recommended fee of 1 dollar or something more. I had to wait for transaction to be completed around 10 hours. That is just too much. Imagine what would cost to be transferred in minutes, on 40 dollars i guess it would cost around 10 dollars. Just too much.

zedsacs

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Actually, it's really fair eh, I mean we all know that last year we don't really have a transction fee because we all know that time that bitcoin is just only 700$ and it's not that really big. But compare now, it'a almost 3k$ and it's just fsir to have a transaction fee to be also a help for thosr miners

Vishnu.Reang

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Yesterday I had a quite frustrating experience while transferring some of my coins to Localbitcoins. I paid a fee of almost 65 Sat/Byte, and even then it took more than 24 hours to confirm. The total size of the transaction was quite high (around 1.5 KB), and that may be one of the reasons for the delay. I don't know how it got that big.

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Quote from: Xester on April 26, 2017, 06:46:44 AM

Quote from: ImHash on April 26, 2017, 04:43:01 AM

Not only fair but harmful extremely for the bitcoin image, one of the promises of bitcoin was low fees,but now we just have to or rather forced to pay high fees and fee per byte is not even adjusted with the market price, what we need to do is to set and agree on the dollar value of fees instead of satoshi/ bitcoin value.
If you don't pay the higher than usual fee then you'd to wait hours and those unlimited guys are spamming the network to justify the need for an unlimited fork so when people complained about high fees they come and say hey we have a solution it's called BU.

It is unfair and a big disadvantage especially for small time bitcoin users since we can hardly use bitcoin for small transactions since the fees are very high. But it is the price of being a decentralized currency wherein nobody is in control or somebody to regulate the fees that are being placed on the shoulders of the consumers. This is the disadvantage brought by decentralization but we must accept the fact since we dont want bitcoin to be placed under regulations and centrality.

It's fair, because decentralization is not cheap, you have been lied to think otherwise. If you want onchain transaction and benefit from a decentralized network then pay the required fee, or wait until lightning network is operative so you can get better decentralization levels than the stupid big blocks idea.

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