Is El Salvador in debt because of the bitcoin price drop?

coupable

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Quote from: Henrobakkara on February 16, 2022, 07:49:16 AM

Quote from: coupable on January 28, 2022, 04:28:53 PM

Quote from: yazher on January 25, 2022, 10:25:37 PM

Quote from: asus09 on January 24, 2022, 09:46:40 AM

the media circulating, the impact of the decline in el salvador debt bonds swelled to become one of the worst performers, but strangely when crypto was destroyed, el salvador actually bought bitcoin, president tayib bukele dared to buy bitcoin, maybe tayib bukele believed that one day bitcoin would high again, and will make their economy better again.

All eyes are on them, especially those countries that are planning to do what they have done regarding bitcoins. In my opinion, they are doing exactly right buying in the dip and continue holding it until the price will recover again. since their debt has increased this year compared to last, I'm sure they considering other opportunities and ways to counter that problem and bitcoins will become one of their main solutions.

Only El Salvador citizens who invested in bitcoin following the adoption will suffer from debt because of the bitcoin price drop. Likely most of them don't know about how things work in the bitcoin system.
What i liked the most with El Salvador is that it adopted bitcoin over other altcoins like stable coins. It's a real investment for the future.
However, the country has to continue developping a whole infrastructure for a popular adotion. It's not an easy step imo for a third world country like El Salvador .

The same reason you like their decision is the same reason the El Salvadorian government chose Bitcoin over stable coins because they are stable. They needed something that will at least propel the country forward in terms of financial gains which is to be the outcome of an investment. the country has been in that financial problem and adopting stable coins wouldn't have made any impact except for Bitcoin Investment which will definitely make an impact on the economy if they keep on other infrastructural development around it.

I don't agree with you in the point tht they chose bitcoin over stable coins as offcial currency but also as a official way of payment.

Obito

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Quote from: willoweb on February 16, 2022, 09:47:15 AM

It seems I have already spoken in this forum thread - but I will gladly repeat my theses. El Salvador has carried out and continues to carry out a reform in the financial sector that has no analogues in world history. Such an important and bold step is being taken with an eye to the long term. It is not a question of one or two years - it is worth evaluating such efforts after 5-10 years. The population must get used to it, and an appropriate infrastructure must be formed. I am sure that El Salvador and its people will ultimately benefit from this reform.

The problem with these is that the masses are going to have a hard time readjusting, remember that it's taking years before taking off so it's definitely going to be causing problems in short-term and that's what most people in a country can't handle, a period of inconvenience. I think that there's more to the debt of El Salvador than just bitcoin because I am sure a country needs money in order to grow in different aspects.

dbc23

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Quote from: Imran232 on January 24, 2022, 03:39:05 AM

We know that El Salvador was the first country to make bitcoin legal tender in their country. And he's doing all of this while the price of bitcoin is rising. And they continue to notify us about their new investment in bitcoin. How much bitcoin did they buy, and when did they buy it? How much did they spend on the average price of a bitcoin? Because of the recent massive drop in bitcoin, I assumed that this bitcoin drop had put them in debt. If this dump continues for some more weeks, then it might be problematic for the El Salvador government. Because the opposition party has something to blame them for any kind of debt. And because of the economy, stocks and fiat investors also have something to say against Bitocin. If this happens, then other countries will be really confused about making bitcoin legal tender. To make it legal tender, they might study the case of El Salvador.

It's just my speculation. What do you think about my speculation? I really appreciate your opinion.

They will run into debts because the bought bitcoin at a high price and will have to wait till the market regains another bull run to return to profit. don't be surprise this is not stopping El Salvador from taking advantage of the bear market to buy more. El Salvador has been sanctioned by IMF in recent times about their Bitcoin investment and also made threats of restricting El Salvador from future loans if they continue with Bitcoin but I just see the commitment in the adoption of Bitcoin by El Salvador despite the state of the market

willoweb

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It seems I have already spoken in this forum thread - but I will gladly repeat my theses. El Salvador has carried out and continues to carry out a reform in the financial sector that has no analogues in world history. Such an important and bold step is being taken with an eye to the long term. It is not a question of one or two years - it is worth evaluating such efforts after 5-10 years. The population must get used to it, and an appropriate infrastructure must be formed. I am sure that El Salvador and its people will ultimately benefit from this reform.

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Quote from: Slow death on February 16, 2022, 07:57:37 AM

Quote from: Oneandpure on January 31, 2022, 07:24:04 AM

Nayib Bukele El Savador president is most wonderful think for the future how he try to adopt bitcoin and altcoin as legal transaction payment, right now he always give and take several assets from his country to buy back bitcoin as investment assets on the future. I think most wonderful investment beside looking for with many real project and not really hard looking for investor come to his country make an investment. With bitcoin holding he can earn profit when bitcoin price pump and actually he always active buy back bitcoin when have lower price.

talking about this subject I still forget to ask:

Can anyone tell me how many exchanges moved to El Salvador after the president of El Salvador passed these laws that benefit bitcoin?

how many bitcoin related casinos have el salvador license?

it would be great if we have this data

There is no clear data on this subject about exchanges and Casinos that moved to El Salvador. El Salvador have planned for bitcoin city. Maybe after the completion of the Bitcoin City project we can expect more exchanges and casinos move their base. Also El Salvador have announced more subsidiary and ease of business which will surely attract more new businesses into the country.

Slow death

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Quote from: Oneandpure on January 31, 2022, 07:24:04 AM

Nayib Bukele El Savador president is most wonderful think for the future how he try to adopt bitcoin and altcoin as legal transaction payment, right now he always give and take several assets from his country to buy back bitcoin as investment assets on the future. I think most wonderful investment beside looking for with many real project and not really hard looking for investor come to his country make an investment. With bitcoin holding he can earn profit when bitcoin price pump and actually he always active buy back bitcoin when have lower price.

talking about this subject I still forget to ask:

Can anyone tell me how many exchanges moved to El Salvador after the president of El Salvador passed these laws that benefit bitcoin?

how many bitcoin related casinos have el salvador license?

it would be great if we have this data

Henrobakkara

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Quote from: coupable on January 28, 2022, 04:28:53 PM

Quote from: yazher on January 25, 2022, 10:25:37 PM

Quote from: asus09 on January 24, 2022, 09:46:40 AM

the media circulating, the impact of the decline in el salvador debt bonds swelled to become one of the worst performers, but strangely when crypto was destroyed, el salvador actually bought bitcoin, president tayib bukele dared to buy bitcoin, maybe tayib bukele believed that one day bitcoin would high again, and will make their economy better again.

All eyes are on them, especially those countries that are planning to do what they have done regarding bitcoins. In my opinion, they are doing exactly right buying in the dip and continue holding it until the price will recover again. since their debt has increased this year compared to last, I'm sure they considering other opportunities and ways to counter that problem and bitcoins will become one of their main solutions.

Only El Salvador citizens who invested in bitcoin following the adoption will suffer from debt because of the bitcoin price drop. Likely most of them don't know about how things work in the bitcoin system.
What i liked the most with El Salvador is that it adopted bitcoin over other altcoins like stable coins. It's a real investment for the future.
However, the country has to continue developping a whole infrastructure for a popular adotion. It's not an easy step imo for a third world country like El Salvador .

The same reason you like their decision is the same reason the El Salvadorian government chose Bitcoin over stable coins because they are stable. They needed something that will at least propel the country forward in terms of financial gains which is to be the outcome of an investment. the country has been in that financial problem and adopting stable coins wouldn't have made any impact except for Bitcoin Investment which will definitely make an impact on the economy if they keep on other infrastructural development around it.

TribalBob

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I think there is no debt, where I believe they have taken profit at yesterday's highest price, besides the value of the bitcoin they have has not decreased, only the value in fiat has decreased.

Gamerholic

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So the rate has changed over the past 5-7 days has grown quite a lot. Thus, it can be stated that El Salvador has either already left its unprofitable status or has already entered the green zone of profitability. This was obvious to everyone who has been following bitcoin and the market for more than a year (like me). So I think by the end of the year, colleagues of the President of El Salvador from Latin America and other regions of the world will think about how to partially or completely adopt his experience. It is especially sweet to see how the World Monetary Fund is indignant about this. So - the guys there are doing everything very well!

e_abrams

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The price is once again pumping, so even if they had problems because of the sudden depreciation, they may ease or disappear soon enough. I agree, Bukele does not strike me as dumb either - he had them buy even more Bitcoin when the price dropped and once it rallies again they will be in an even better position than before.

Slow death

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I think the point of it all boils down to this:

- did the president of el salvador take government money to buy bitcoin? if yes, did he ask for authorization from parliament or does the law allow him to buy bitcoin without having to ask for authorization from parliament?

- the president of EL salvador bought bitcoin when the price was cheap, with some exceptions where he bought it at a high price but overall he is said to have made a good choice, but it will also depend on whether he has not used the money the government will need so soon

Gamerholic

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I would not speak so categorically about "debts" because after the purchase there was no sale and in fact this country did not record its "loss". Therefore, I think we will just wait for the moment this year when bitcoin is once again about growth and can update its historical maximum - then articles and opinions about this will change exactly 180 degrees. Everyone will say how far-sighted and smart this politician is who went on such a bold experiment, even despite the shouts from the International Monetary Fund! (For which he - special respect!)

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There are a few things that need to be considered. First of all, unless these Bitcoins were bought with fiat that was considered debt, then yes, that debt hole has now grown. If not, then its just an investment that has absolutely no conditions upon it as to needing to be paid back.

Furthermore, we are ignoring the mining activities which may even out the loss from the dip.

And finally, when it comes to businesses, I think the loss can be written off as business expenses (Although I am not sure on this one). So everything evens out at the end.

Gasty4

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I don't think they're in debt over the decrease in price if Bitcoin drop.
My main fear is not wanting to see investors or those that have bought Bitcoin panic sell.
Since they're not long term holders of bitcoin, they might not be able to hold down for longer time.
Advice:While educating and advocating about Bitcoin do well to tell them about demerits if it, this will see them brace up when a situation like this turns up.

Oneandpure

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Nayib Bukele El Savador president is most wonderful think for the future how he try to adopt bitcoin and altcoin as legal transaction payment, right now he always give and take several assets from his country to buy back bitcoin as investment assets on the future. I think most wonderful investment beside looking for with many real project and not really hard looking for investor come to his country make an investment. With bitcoin holding he can earn profit when bitcoin price pump and actually he always active buy back bitcoin when have lower price.

Baofeng

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Quote from: pinggoki on January 31, 2022, 01:38:48 AM

I don't think so, it's a country and 400 bitcoin in my opinion isn't a lot of money that it can make a dent in their treasury to the point that they're going to resort to having debt or borrowing money to supplement what was left by buying those bitcoins, I mean bitcoin is probably just a small aspect of the money that El Salvador is being spent into so there's probably other things that have made their debt bigger but that doesn't mean that those bitcoin didn't play any role.

At the current price, it's more or less $15 million, so yes it's not a lot of money. If they invested like billions so that could be questionable and maybe they could really be affected by the price drop. We all know that it is a huge gamble for El Salvador's president, but it's a calculated risk. The rewards might not be seen today, but it could be the returns in the next bull run could be huge dividends and that is the time that we can say that his experiment has succeeded.

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Quote from: pinggoki on January 31, 2022, 01:38:48 AM

I don't think so, it's a country and 400 bitcoin in my opinion isn't a lot of money that it can make a dent in their treasury to the point that they're going to resort to having debt or borrowing money to supplement what was left by buying those bitcoins, I mean bitcoin is probably just a small aspect of the money that El Salvador is being spent into so there's probably other things that have made their debt bigger but that doesn't mean that those bitcoin didn't play any role.

Well, El Salvador was already in debt before they start adopting bitcoin. In fact, Bukele plans to add 410 more bitcoin which costs around $15 million while bitcoin is cheaper because he really believes that bitcoin could make them a fortune in the long run. However, there's still no proof that El Salvador is losing right now because as far as i know, they are buying bitcoin for long term hodling, so most likely Bukele is not that fool enough to sell bitcoin while there is dips.

pinggoki

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I don't think so, it's a country and 400 bitcoin in my opinion isn't a lot of money that it can make a dent in their treasury to the point that they're going to resort to having debt or borrowing money to supplement what was left by buying those bitcoins, I mean bitcoin is probably just a small aspect of the money that El Salvador is being spent into so there's probably other things that have made their debt bigger but that doesn't mean that those bitcoin didn't play any role.

coupable

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Quote from: yazher on January 25, 2022, 10:25:37 PM

Quote from: asus09 on January 24, 2022, 09:46:40 AM

the media circulating, the impact of the decline in el salvador debt bonds swelled to become one of the worst performers, but strangely when crypto was destroyed, el salvador actually bought bitcoin, president tayib bukele dared to buy bitcoin, maybe tayib bukele believed that one day bitcoin would high again, and will make their economy better again.

All eyes are on them, especially those countries that are planning to do what they have done regarding bitcoins. In my opinion, they are doing exactly right buying in the dip and continue holding it until the price will recover again. since their debt has increased this year compared to last, I'm sure they considering other opportunities and ways to counter that problem and bitcoins will become one of their main solutions.

Only El Salvador citizens who invested in bitcoin following the adoption will suffer from debt because of the bitcoin price drop. Likely most of them don't know about how things work in the bitcoin system.
What i liked the most with El Salvador is that it adopted bitcoin over other altcoins like stable coins. It's a real investment for the future.
However, the country has to continue developping a whole infrastructure for a popular adotion. It's not an easy step imo for a third world country like El Salvador .

Sanitough

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Quote from: TheNineClub on January 28, 2022, 07:03:26 AM

El Salvador's debt has been steadily going up for a number of years. This is the issue with the crypto bubble, a bunch of people thinks that BTC (or crypto in general) is the only factor in saving or killing an economy, and that's just not how the economy works. It's never a single thing, and things such as BTC accumulation will not affect the overall debt projected in the oncoming years. And when BTC goes back up, you will see that El Salvador's debt will not change that much either. SO the short answer is NO, it's in debt because it has had economic turmoil for a number of years prior.

El Salvador has been in debt crisis already even before which made them to switch into bitcoin hoping that it could be the answer from their poor economic condition. And that's when they start buying 410 bitcoins at a higher price. Maybe this is the reason why most of the critics think that El Salvador is definitely in high debts right now since the price of bitcoin falls. But no, because they are not selling their coins at a lower value. They even buy more of it as their main plan is to hold bitcoin for long term so they can gain extreme profits from it in the future.

uneng

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It's undeniable El Salvador increases its debt regards the investment made in bitcoins when compared to the price it was bought if the cryptocurrency's price keeps falling. Although it's not a problem for now, as the investment was made aiming long term returns for the country's treasury. Only in some years or in a decade we will be able to conclude if that was a good step or not for El Salvador to have invested in bitcoin.

The point is that El Salvador faces a difficult economical situation for a long time already, currently with 84% of its GDP compromised with debt and I don't think bitcoin is going to be a magical tool which will solve all their financial problems suddenly. The government actually needs to attract foreigner investors and foreigner funds to their country in order to increase the GDP and decrease debt. It's not an easy task though. Tourism could be a decent source of income for the country, but the pandemic difficults it from happening. Moreover, there are so many countries and islands around which directly compete for the same kind of public in tourism sector.

TheNineClub

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El Salvador's debt has been steadily going up for a number of years. This is the issue with the crypto bubble, a bunch of people thinks that BTC (or crypto in general) is the only factor in saving or killing an economy, and that's just not how the economy works. It's never a single thing, and things such as BTC accumulation will not affect the overall debt projected in the oncoming years. And when BTC goes back up, you will see that El Salvador's debt will not change that much either. SO the short answer is NO, it's in debt because it has had economic turmoil for a number of years prior.

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Quote from: taufik123 on January 27, 2022, 06:35:35 PM

Nayib Bukele has a strategy on how he can take advantage of this crashing market situation by buying more bitcoins to add Bitcoin assets at the lowest price. Of course when the price starts to rise he will get some profit. This el salvador president will probably continue to buy bitcoin when the price drops and in time he will sell it at a higher price or a new ATH price above $100k. Of course that is the goal and a long-term investment.

Nayib Bukele is indeed an extraordinary president, I am quite amazed by all the policies he has taken, especially by legalizing Bitcoin as a legal
tender is the boldest step taken by Bukele. If we look at the beginning of Nayib Bukele's life, he has started running the company since he was
18 years old. I can assure you that Nayib Bukele's decision was not careless. Because from a young age, Nayib Bukele is used to making
important decisions, and solving problems well. Likewise, when the price of Bitcoin falls, it will not leave El Salvador in debt, because Nayib Bukele
must have previously studied Bitcoin. When the Bitcoin price drops he already knows what steps to take, El Salvador will not sell Bitcoin when
the price is low, and indeed from the very beginning El Salvador invested in Bitcoin for the long term. So instead of selling Bitcoin, El Salvador
prefers to buy more Bitcoin. So when the Bitcoin price recovers and the Bitcoin price reaches new ATH, El Salvador can generate huge profits
and help boost the economy in El Salvador. If El Salvador finally experiences an economic boom from investing in Bitcoin, other countries will
surely follow suit to legalize Bitcoin and invest in Bitcoin too.

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Quote from: ultrloa on January 27, 2022, 06:11:55 PM

Quote from: LUCKMCFLY on January 27, 2022, 05:47:55 PM

Quote from: lalabotax on January 26, 2022, 06:01:06 PM

Quote from: Kasabus on January 26, 2022, 03:54:26 PM

Before Bukele started this investments about bitcoin, he must be knowledgeable enough that the crypto market evolves in two different cycles, bullish and bearish season. So meaning, El Salvador has prepared this battle already and losing this time will only be visible if they happen to sell their coins when the market value has started to decreased.

You are right, bro. Nayib Bukele isn't a stupid person who wants to invest in Bitcoin without proper knowledge. He is a president and put money in Bitcoin for his country purpose. He must prepare everything including may hire some people who are experienced in crypto investment to help him. So, it is very strange to doubt the capacity of president Nayib Bukele. Sure, they must know the cycle of bearish and bullish, that's why they still hold their Bitcoin and continue to buy more once the Bitcoin price was below $35k. In my understanding, they are quite confident that in the future Bitcoin price to soar more than the current ATH.

Bukele is a very intelligent president, he knew very well what he was getting himself into, and he was clearly aware that if BTC went down he would have considerable losses, however he is a president who runs other types of businesses and has other money coming in with him. that the country can produce, before BTC they lived on remittances, so the number of BTC you have should not matter if you leave it in Hodl mode, in the same way when you bought it you made a profit and those profits allowed you to do many things favorable, so waiting a little longer having BTC is not something that hurts, on the contrary, he knows that he is amassing a great millionaire fortune for his nation.

That's what I admire him because he really know what he is doing since for thinking about buying when the price dip is actually a work by experience guy so even if they are at downside right now for sure all laughs will be at them once bitcoin price recovers on this bear market condition. We know bitcoin is in bad shape right now and this is accumulation phase for other and good to hear that their president accumulate some on last few days since this could help them in future.

The critics can say it all but El Salvador's President is still determined to buy more bitcoin despite of the bitcoin price crash. So for those who are thinking that he's panicking right now like most of the regular investors, well he's not. He is even buying at the dips believing that this is a wise strategy to make a fortune in the future. Here's the link..https://qz.com/2117653/el-salvador-is-betting-its-economy-on-bitcoin/

stomachgrowls

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Quote from: taufik123 on January 27, 2022, 06:35:35 PM

Nayib Bukele has a strategy on how he can take advantage of this crashing market situation by buying more bitcoins to add Bitcoin assets at the lowest price. Of course when the price starts to rise he will get some profit. This el salvador president will probably continue to buy bitcoin when the price drops and in time he will sell it at a higher price or a new ATH price above $100k. Of course that is the goal and a long-term investment.

The public would able to know if he had bought another coins in the market yet the address been used could be publicly seen.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/tech-bytes/el-salvador-adds-nearly-25-million-in-bitcoin-to-state-coffers-says-president/articleshow/87326906.cms?from=mdr

Instead of panic, he had bought more.?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zacharysmith/2022/01/21/el-salvador-buys-15-million-worth-of-bitcoin-really-cheap-president-crows-as-selloff-continues/?sh=1fbcb63960ed

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Nayib Bukele has a strategy on how he can take advantage of this crashing market situation by buying more bitcoins to add Bitcoin assets at the lowest price. Of course when the price starts to rise he will get some profit. This el salvador president will probably continue to buy bitcoin when the price drops and in time he will sell it at a higher price or a new ATH price above $100k. Of course that is the goal and a long-term investment.

ultrloa

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Quote from: LUCKMCFLY on January 27, 2022, 05:47:55 PM

Quote from: lalabotax on January 26, 2022, 06:01:06 PM

Quote from: Kasabus on January 26, 2022, 03:54:26 PM

Before Bukele started this investments about bitcoin, he must be knowledgeable enough that the crypto market evolves in two different cycles, bullish and bearish season. So meaning, El Salvador has prepared this battle already and losing this time will only be visible if they happen to sell their coins when the market value has started to decreased.

You are right, bro. Nayib Bukele isn't a stupid person who wants to invest in Bitcoin without proper knowledge. He is a president and put money in Bitcoin for his country purpose. He must prepare everything including may hire some people who are experienced in crypto investment to help him. So, it is very strange to doubt the capacity of president Nayib Bukele. Sure, they must know the cycle of bearish and bullish, that's why they still hold their Bitcoin and continue to buy more once the Bitcoin price was below $35k. In my understanding, they are quite confident that in the future Bitcoin price to soar more than the current ATH.

Bukele is a very intelligent president, he knew very well what he was getting himself into, and he was clearly aware that if BTC went down he would have considerable losses, however he is a president who runs other types of businesses and has other money coming in with him. that the country can produce, before BTC they lived on remittances, so the number of BTC you have should not matter if you leave it in Hodl mode, in the same way when you bought it you made a profit and those profits allowed you to do many things favorable, so waiting a little longer having BTC is not something that hurts, on the contrary, he knows that he is amassing a great millionaire fortune for his nation.

That's what I admire him because he really know what he is doing since for thinking about buying when the price dip is actually a work by experience guy so even if they are at downside right now for sure all laughs will be at them once bitcoin price recovers on this bear market condition. We know bitcoin is in bad shape right now and this is accumulation phase for other and good to hear that their president accumulate some on last few days since this could help them in future.

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Quote from: lalabotax on January 26, 2022, 06:01:06 PM

Quote from: Kasabus on January 26, 2022, 03:54:26 PM

Before Bukele started this investments about bitcoin, he must be knowledgeable enough that the crypto market evolves in two different cycles, bullish and bearish season. So meaning, El Salvador has prepared this battle already and losing this time will only be visible if they happen to sell their coins when the market value has started to decreased.

You are right, bro. Nayib Bukele isn't a stupid person who wants to invest in Bitcoin without proper knowledge. He is a president and put money in Bitcoin for his country purpose. He must prepare everything including may hire some people who are experienced in crypto investment to help him. So, it is very strange to doubt the capacity of president Nayib Bukele. Sure, they must know the cycle of bearish and bullish, that's why they still hold their Bitcoin and continue to buy more once the Bitcoin price was below $35k. In my understanding, they are quite confident that in the future Bitcoin price to soar more than the current ATH.

Bukele is a very intelligent president, he knew very well what he was getting himself into, and he was clearly aware that if BTC went down he would have considerable losses, however he is a president who runs other types of businesses and has other money coming in with him. that the country can produce, before BTC they lived on remittances, so the number of BTC you have should not matter if you leave it in Hodl mode, in the same way when you bought it you made a profit and those profits allowed you to do many things favorable, so waiting a little longer having BTC is not something that hurts, on the contrary, he knows that he is amassing a great millionaire fortune for his nation.

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Quote from: Quidat on January 27, 2022, 03:38:22 PM

Quote from: GreatArkansas on January 27, 2022, 02:13:00 AM

I am also curious if those posts of their President are Bitcoin bought using funds of El Salvador because maybe it comes from the money of their President itself.
And even if those are coming from the pocket of El Salvador, I believe those amounts are just a very very small amount of money I believe it will not affect the country's fund at all. Their Bitcoin portfolio is already underwater, lol.

For sure it would be on peoples money or simply belong to the state and wont really be coming from his own pocket and its true that their portfolio is on floating
negative as of this moment but doesnt mean that they would really be selling off due to panic and pretty much sure that they are fully aware on what would gonna
happen since this market is volatile since in the first place on which they are for sure prepare for this time to come and now the questions is, whether they
do buy on the dip or would cut loss?

And I guess so. Besides, we all had probably the same story, for now, losing some value of our portfolio. However, keeping our coins in our wallets is the only way to save us from losing and I think, the President of El Salvador has still kept them until now which means they are not losing yet. Well, people are just overreacting and thinking bad on every decline situation and making judgments even without seeing what really happens.

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Quote from: GreatArkansas on January 27, 2022, 02:13:00 AM

I am also curious if those posts of their President are Bitcoin bought using funds of El Salvador because maybe it comes from the money of their President itself.
And even if those are coming from the pocket of El Salvador, I believe those amounts are just a very very small amount of money I believe it will not affect the country's fund at all. Their Bitcoin portfolio is already underwater, lol.

For sure it would be on peoples money or simply belong to the state and wont really be coming from his own pocket and its true that their portfolio is on floating
negative as of this moment but doesnt mean that they would really be selling off due to panic and pretty much sure that they are fully aware on what would gonna
happen since this market is volatile since in the first place on which they are for sure prepare for this time to come and now the questions is, whether they
do buy on the dip or would cut loss?

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is el salvador in debt because of bitcoin's decline,?? According to the media that I'm reading now, El Salvador's debt is increasing due to the influence of the decline in bitcoin, but there are also media that say that bukele actually buys up bitcoin when the price is falling, maybe your question should just ask bukele directly, because only bukele knows more about the country's finances, because if we read articles about el salvador there is no certainty..

Not all that we read online are true but they can put up a headline like this just to gain attention without really knowing the real situation. No president will do crazy things and make his country in danger because that will tarnish his reputation. I think the second article that you read where bukele buys more bitcoin is true because he is a real bitcoin enthusiast. The actions he made on the past proves it.

Quote from: GreatArkansas on January 27, 2022, 02:13:00 AM

I am also curious if those posts of their President are Bitcoin bought using funds of El Salvador because maybe it comes from the money of their President itself.
And even if those are coming from the pocket of El Salvador, I believe those amounts are just a very very small amount of money I believe it will not affect the country's fund at all. Their Bitcoin portfolio is already underwater, lol.

I guess it only comes from the pocket of bukele. A president salary is huge and he can use that to buy lots of bitcoins. Countries funds should be handled safely and stably, away from fluctuations because will only be used to improve the country itself, not on the things that can cause more harm in the future.

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Quote from: mk4 on January 24, 2022, 08:00:06 AM

El Salvador sure is a really small and not-so-rich country, but do you really think they'd put that much funds into something that could drop and put them into debt? I'm pretty sure Bukele and his finance people aren't THAT incompetent. If they were really bullish on bitcoin but at the same time can think realistically, I'm pretty sure they'll have money for dips and crashes.

He has a nice sense of humour too!

https://twitter.com/nayibbukele/status/1485031106982428677

He is more pro active on these social media accounts and post such bitcoin favouring tweets and more importantly he invest at most of the dips which is why El Salvador holds around 1120 bitcoins and probably more and they might get into more profits in the long run when price starts to pump.

There was one such tweet few time back when the prices were high and El Salvador was gaining profits out of it then he was burning out some other btc haters with his statements :

They were in debt from long and it's not that btc have degraded their position but in actual they have invested quite a big amount in bitcoin and being third world country they rely much on their reserves for growth purpose but you see as IMF have urged them to drop the legal status of bitcoin they will potray as conditions have worsen for them after they have adopted it as legal tender.

The US dollar domination has curbed their economy for years and being one of the young president he is taking up some smart move on accepting btc and boost the economy.The prices are down at this time but they will not stay there forever and will eventually rise so is their profits along with it.So nothing to worry about it and soon they will get profits.

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I am also curious if those posts of their President are Bitcoin bought using funds of El Salvador because maybe it comes from the money of their President itself.
And even if those are coming from the pocket of El Salvador, I believe those amounts are just a very very small amount of money I believe it will not affect the country's fund at all. Their Bitcoin portfolio is already underwater, lol.

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Quote from: Imran232 on January 24, 2022, 03:39:05 AM

If this dump continues for some more weeks, then it might be problematic for the El Salvador government. Because the opposition party has something to blame them for any kind of debt. And because of the economy, stocks and fiat investors also have something to say against Bitocin.

Personally I would say that them investing at that time they did was quite a bad idea, because the market was at what seems to be its peak, so it would have been best that they did it earlier before the bull run or waited out the last bull run till now that the market is bearish before they would start investing.

Because like you have said, the opposition party would hold this as a point against the current government in the country, and they would say that the current government of El Salvador spent the country’s money in buying Bitcoin and leading the country into more loss and debt. But I believe in the next four years they would recover.

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Quote from: buwaytress on January 24, 2022, 12:00:32 PM

Quote from: stompix on January 24, 2022, 05:02:35 AM

~

I hate to say it but more and more we're going to see a lot of banking people who can't wait to use El Salvador as teachable moment fodder. Wonder if Bukele will soon be on the phone calling up them Miami conference friends and getting their voicemail. I suppose they could always NFT their Twitter profiles.

I always thought that one of the main advantages of BTC or other shitcoins is the lack of active leadership, Satoshi is gone, there is nothing coming from him, he can't do blunders in the press, he can't take any wrong decisions he can't be proven wrong in what he says.
Now everything is reversed by poeple actually trying to portray these guys as somewhat of leaders or influencers that can actually dictate how things are going, a user here even called him an angel, just lol. The moment these guys fall they will be, as you said it, the prime ingredient for the media to attack bitcoin. Just think how they will exploit this, bitcoin country is near bankruptcy, it doesn't even matter that BTC is just 0.01% of the economy, it doesn't matter that other countries are in some situation without BTC, those clickbait articles manufacturers are going to have a party.

Ironically, although I don't think Bukele is nowhere near the good guy he poses to be and he is just another manipulator right now I'm forced to actually hope he will not get into trouble with all his lies because of the consequences.

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Quote from: Kasabus on January 26, 2022, 03:54:26 PM

Before Bukele started this investments about bitcoin, he must be knowledgeable enough that the crypto market evolves in two different cycles, bullish and bearish season. So meaning, El Salvador has prepared this battle already and losing this time will only be visible if they happen to sell their coins when the market value has started to decreased.

You are right, bro. Nayib Bukele isn't a stupid person who wants to invest in Bitcoin without proper knowledge. He is a president and put money in Bitcoin for his country purpose. He must prepare everything including may hire some people who are experienced in crypto investment to help him. So, it is very strange to doubt the capacity of president Nayib Bukele. Sure, they must know the cycle of bearish and bullish, that's why they still hold their Bitcoin and continue to buy more once the Bitcoin price was below $35k. In my understanding, they are quite confident that in the future Bitcoin price to soar more than the current ATH.

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Quote from: stomachgrowls on January 26, 2022, 05:08:11 PM

Wont be considered as total loss if they havent sold anything when the price had dumped.Of course these are one of the risks that you would really be dealing with Bitcoin on which its price is volatile as hell.You wouldnt comes next but what do assures you is that you would really have some sort of assurance that youve been dealing with the right thing.

I do also believe that they do have debts before they had made Bitcoin as a legal tender thats why it isnt really that much right that Btc would took all the blame.It isnt really that justifiable if you do ask me and also the community isnt blind for that fact.

There was most likely some debt before they even purchased Bitcoin so it's not because of Bitcoin. The way I see it, El Salvador isn't that worried about their Bitcoin investment and endeavor and they might actually be investing for the long term and would continue buying more btitcoin as it falls even cheaper towards the supply zone.

El Salvador can take solace in the fact that Michael Saylor and Microstrategy are aboard this ship.

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Quote from: freedomgo on January 26, 2022, 04:59:15 PM

Quote from: Argoo on January 26, 2022, 03:14:11 PM

Here they write that El Salvador has a debt to the IMF in the amount of 287 million dollars. I am sure that this is an old debt and it arose or increased even before the adoption of bitcoin as a national payment currency. Now, if the government of El Salvador does not sell his bitcoins at the current low price, then he will not have financial problems. Of course, the world has not yet known such an experience, and the whole world is watching how the economy of El Salvador will behave in the face of falling Bitcoin prices.

This time may be a great challenge for El Salvador as its their first time to witness bitcoin falling its value. But not on the part of Bukele as he was used to crypto market even before El Salvador has not adopted bitcoin. But if they are just hodling their coins with this current dump, then i don't think they will lose and maybe put in big debt. I believe the said debt was already here before they adopt bitcoin.

Wont be considered as total loss if they havent sold anything when the price had dumped.Of course these are one of the risks that you would really be dealing with Bitcoin on which its price is volatile as hell.You wouldnt comes next but what do assures you is that you would really have some sort of assurance that youve been dealing with the right thing.

I do also believe that they do have debts before they had made Bitcoin as a legal tender thats why it isnt really that much right that Btc would took all the blame.It isnt really that justifiable if you do ask me and also the community isnt blind for that fact.

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Quote from: Argoo on January 26, 2022, 03:14:11 PM

Here they write that El Salvador has a debt to the IMF in the amount of 287 million dollars. I am sure that this is an old debt and it arose or increased even before the adoption of bitcoin as a national payment currency. Now, if the government of El Salvador does not sell his bitcoins at the current low price, then he will not have financial problems. Of course, the world has not yet known such an experience, and the whole world is watching how the economy of El Salvador will behave in the face of falling Bitcoin prices.

This time may be a great challenge for El Salvador as its their first time to witness bitcoin falling its value. But not on the part of Bukele as he was used to crypto market even before El Salvador has not adopted bitcoin. But if they are just hodling their coins with this current dump, then i don't think they will lose and maybe put in big debt. I believe the said debt was already here before they adopt bitcoin.

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Quote from: Smartvirus on January 26, 2022, 03:35:38 PM

When I hear people yelling about debts and loses when coins dump or during the bear market, I ask myself one question.

Have they sold all them bitcoin or altcoins?

Because, that's practically the only time uou get to really loose. You lose nothing whoe holding on to your precious coin. Yeah, it must have devalued but the quantity stays constant while waiting on a rise. Should you be able to hodl until it pumps or a bullrun eventually comes up, you get them value back on track.

So, while counting loses for El-Salvador bitcoin investment, let's first of all understand if they were being sold or put to use in some way. If that isn't being done, then they just might be as stable as before during the bull Market. Let the politicians play there games but, that's simply the truth. Those I would feel for is, the merchants who rely on there bitcoin purchases to refill there stocks. Those horling are ruled out on this. Infact, its time to buy some more.

Before Bukele started this investments about bitcoin, he must be knowledgeable enough that the crypto market evolves in two different cycles, bullish and bearish season. So meaning, El Salvador has prepared this battle already and losing this time will only be visible if they happen to sell their coins when the market value has started to decreased. But i guess they're not. Of course, they might have develop fears seeing the price of bitcoin started to decline, but i know they can manage it and chose to hold their bitcoins because its always expected that bitcoin will always recover again.

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When I hear people yelling about debts and loses when coins dump or during the bear market, I ask myself one question.

Have they sold all them bitcoin or altcoins?

Because, that's practically the only time uou get to really loose. You lose nothing whoe holding on to your precious coin. Yeah, it must have devalued but the quantity stays constant while waiting on a rise. Should you be able to hodl until it pumps or a bullrun eventually comes up, you get them value back on track.

So, while counting loses for El-Salvador bitcoin investment, let's first of all understand if they were being sold or put to use in some way. If that isn't being done, then they just might be as stable as before during the bull Market. Let the politicians play there games but, that's simply the truth. Those I would feel for is, the merchants who rely on there bitcoin purchases to refill there stocks. Those horling are ruled out on this. Infact, its time to buy some more.

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Here they write that El Salvador has a debt to the IMF in the amount of 287 million dollars. I am sure that this is an old debt and it arose or increased even before the adoption of bitcoin as a national payment currency. Now, if the government of El Salvador does not sell his bitcoins at the current low price, then he will not have financial problems. Of course, the world has not yet known such an experience, and the whole world is watching how the economy of El Salvador will behave in the face of falling Bitcoin prices.

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Quote from: andulolika on January 25, 2022, 01:20:05 PM

Afaik salvador already profited and used profits from their first buy, and probably the rest counting how markets been going.

How sure are you about that, do you have any proof that shows that they sold part of their investment at first to make profit from the market? The post by the OP shows that they only bought more coins during the deep and added to the ones that they have bought first at high price, making their total holdings of bitcoin asset up to 500 BTC.

There was never a post I saw that shows that they sold any coins. Anyways an investment in bitcoin is never a loss, because they are still going to recover back everything that they have lost now in the future when the market starts to increase in value again. It’s not like this is the first time that the market has dropped this low.

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Quote from: sunsilk on January 25, 2022, 07:39:24 PM

There are people of them that are against to the continuous buying of their president. But they're like Microstrategy that does it whenever the market is plunging and they think that it's the right time to buy. They won't just buy bitcoin within a short term plan that they have.

he did for a reason but somehow, some of their citizens don't understand it and make negative talks about it. But for me, he did it right, and no way for him to regret it but rather to keep buying.

Quote

It's the same for these retail companies that they know what they're up to and that's not just for the short term. I'm not sure about the debt but if the price of bitcoin gets lower and they've bought it at a higher price, that's not debt, that's paper loss.

I become uncertain when talking about debts as the result of investing in Bitcoin. Perhaps, many people have already suffered losses during this dump but this never causes debts. They are not selling yet and their investment is still intact which means that they are not losing yet.

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Quote from: molsewid on January 26, 2022, 02:14:20 AM

Quote from: yazher on January 25, 2022, 10:25:37 PM

All eyes are on them, especially those countries that are planning to do what they have done regarding bitcoins. In my opinion, they are doing exactly right buying in the dip and continue holding it until the price will recover again. since their debt has increased this year compared to last, I'm sure they considering other opportunities and ways to counter that problem and bitcoins will become one of their main solutions.

El Salvador will be the real test of effectiveness of bitcoin adoption and that's why no doubt that all eyes are on them. Not just that, it is also because El Salvador is the first country that made a solid decision of adopting bitcoin however I may not doubt also that it could be in fall of debt today because of the dumped price of bitcoin. But it's just because the cryptocurrency is something like this, volatile and unpredictable. I am very optimistic that it will going to bounce back and hopefully El Salvador could recover too.

I don't think El Salvador is likely to fall after the market crashed yesterday, because El Salvador in making a decision before legalizing bitcoin as a legal medium of exchange, of course, has created a special team in dealing with negative issues regarding the decline in the price of bitcoin in the future and when bitcoin should be sold and when. bitcoins have to be bought and of course they have a plan B in case the market goes bad in the future.

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Quote from: yazher on January 25, 2022, 10:25:37 PM

All eyes are on them, especially those countries that are planning to do what they have done regarding bitcoins. In my opinion, they are doing exactly right buying in the dip and continue holding it until the price will recover again. since their debt has increased this year compared to last, I'm sure they considering other opportunities and ways to counter that problem and bitcoins will become one of their main solutions.

El Salvador will be the real test of effectiveness of bitcoin adoption and that's why no doubt that all eyes are on them. Not just that, it is also because El Salvador is the first country that made a solid decision of adopting bitcoin however I may not doubt also that it could be in fall of debt today because of the dumped price of bitcoin. But it's just because the cryptocurrency is something like this, volatile and unpredictable. I am very optimistic that it will going to bounce back and hopefully El Salvador could recover too.

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Quote from: asus09 on January 24, 2022, 09:46:40 AM

the media circulating, the impact of the decline in el salvador debt bonds swelled to become one of the worst performers, but strangely when crypto was destroyed, el salvador actually bought bitcoin, president tayib bukele dared to buy bitcoin, maybe tayib bukele believed that one day bitcoin would high again, and will make their economy better again.

All eyes are on them, especially those countries that are planning to do what they have done regarding bitcoins. In my opinion, they are doing exactly right buying in the dip and continue holding it until the price will recover again. since their debt has increased this year compared to last, I'm sure they considering other opportunities and ways to counter that problem and bitcoins will become one of their main solutions.

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There are people of them that are against to the continuous buying of their president. But they're like Microstrategy that does it whenever the market is plunging and they think that it's the right time to buy. They won't just buy bitcoin within a short term plan that they have.

It's the same for these retail companies that they know what they're up to and that's not just for the short term. I'm not sure about the debt but if the price of bitcoin gets lower and they've bought it at a higher price, that's not debt, that's paper loss.

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Quote from: kawetsriyanto on January 25, 2022, 06:07:32 PM

Quote from: Imran232 on January 24, 2022, 03:39:05 AM

Because of the recent massive drop in bitcoin, I assumed that this bitcoin drop had put them in debt.

Don't imagine them like a newbie (person) who just put all his money in Bitcoin. Remember that it is a country, they must use safe money to buy Bitcoin. Moreover, president Nayib leads the investment, he must consider everything before buying or selling Bitcoin. In my assumption, he must have a special team who work behind this investment, those who are professionals (experts) in crypto and digital investment. So, you don't need to be worried about them!!

Regarding the debt, I assume they don't borrow money to buy Bitcoin. But they buy Bitcoin for the purpose of paying debts and improving their financial/economic level.

Just let them be and they are fully aware about volatility problems and lets see on what would be the decisions they would make ahead.They wouldnt really be ending up on making it as a legal tender if they arent

aware with that certain risks.Yes, they are on debt now but doesnt mean that the market wouldnt really recover or even shoot up more on new ATH's.It is really just a matter of time because we know the potential

of this market which couldnt really be taken lightly and to those who discriminate or doesnt really have trust will surely regret on missing out the train.

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el salvador is in debt to the IMF to the tune of $287million

el salvador bought 410($15mill) of bitcoin..

some how i think $287m debt of IMF is the real issue, and far exceeds the failed attempt to blame bitcoin for el salv' debt problems
$15m vs $287m.. um.. id be blaming the IMF(aka dollar) not bitcoin

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Quote from: Imran232 on January 24, 2022, 03:39:05 AM

Because of the recent massive drop in bitcoin, I assumed that this bitcoin drop had put them in debt.

Don't imagine them like a newbie (person) who just put all his money in Bitcoin. Remember that it is a country, they must use safe money to buy Bitcoin. Moreover, president Nayib leads the investment, he must consider everything before buying or selling Bitcoin. In my assumption, he must have a special team who work behind this investment, those who are professionals (experts) in crypto and digital investment. So, you don't need to be worried about them!!

Regarding the debt, I assume they don't borrow money to buy Bitcoin. But they buy Bitcoin for the purpose of paying debts and improving their financial/economic level.

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Quote from: marilynmanson21 on January 25, 2022, 04:45:31 PM

no one can answer whether there is a debt or not el salvador at this time because only bukele knows,
in bitcoin ownership i think everyone is losing a huge amount due to the current price drop,
But since the purpose of abitcoin in this country is to use Bitcoin as a currency and coins bought by countries exist to support/help the flow of money, I don't think there's a downside there.

They are in debt but not only because of Bitcoin. That is why I don't agree with OP stating that way as it can't be particular which and where El Salvador got that huge debt. Perhaps, the country itself isn't focusing on Bitcoin alone, there are many things that went busy and they also spend money for that.

As we know that Bitcoin price is unstable, losses can also be expected if we sell them during corrections. But I think Mr. Bukele didn't do it but instead of keeping it.

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Quote from: Oilacris on January 25, 2022, 04:34:23 PM

Quote from: kentrolla on January 25, 2022, 03:09:00 PM

This is just like saying institutions who have invested into Bitcoins are in debt now just because the value has dropped and it doesn't makes sense. They are government and not a newbie to panic sell the Bitcoins just for a drop of around 20% it shouldn't be concerning them as the Bitcoin will not be spent until it pumps back and infact bitcoin will be gamechanger for them if they buy during dips.

For sure those governments are pretty much aware on how volatility works because they wouldnt really make it as a legal tender if they dont know the risk behind and now the time has come then they

are surely been prepared.Losses or floating negatives would really be common and as long they dont sell anything then those losses arent realized or still imaginary on which they could rather take this
dip as their buying point too or simply making average downs.

So far we havent seen any word from them despite of the market decline but for sure they are accumulating in silence.

When a country completely adopts bitcoin, it makes a big study and further adopts it. As in the quote the authorities were well aware of the volatile market and knowing the same only they've adopted it. When a country takes such a bold decision, surely there'll be experts who are assigned to predict the market. We don't know whether they've sold before the crash for a buy back. If they've done so, now for number of bitcoins they hold, now the number would've increased by another 35BTC.

As in the above quote it looks like El Salvador government is quite interested in accumulating more considering the future rather thinking about the volatility.

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no one can answer whether there is a debt or not el salvador at this time because only bukele knows,
in bitcoin ownership i think everyone is losing a huge amount due to the current price drop,
But since the purpose of abitcoin in this country is to use Bitcoin as a currency and coins bought by countries exist to support/help the flow of money, I don't think there's a downside there.

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Quote from: kentrolla on January 25, 2022, 03:09:00 PM

This is just like saying institutions who have invested into Bitcoins are in debt now just because the value has dropped and it doesn't makes sense. They are government and not a newbie to panic sell the Bitcoins just for a drop of around 20% it shouldn't be concerning them as the Bitcoin will not be spent until it pumps back and infact bitcoin will be gamechanger for them if they buy during dips.

For sure those governments are pretty much aware on how volatility works because they wouldnt really make it as a legal tender if they dont know the risk behind and now the time has come then they

are surely been prepared.Losses or floating negatives would really be common and as long they dont sell anything then those losses arent realized or still imaginary on which they could rather take this
dip as their buying point too or simply making average downs.

So far we havent seen any word from them despite of the market decline but for sure they are accumulating in silence.

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Quote from: 24Kt on January 25, 2022, 01:38:33 PM

Quote from: Ozero on January 25, 2022, 01:10:47 PM

I have previously thought about the question of how the sharp drop in the price of bitcoin will affect the economy of El Salvador. It is clear that this will not be better. Previously, the wealth of the state was measured by the level of gold and foreign exchange reserves, in this case, it is probably more appropriate to use the term capitalization of the economy. The capitalization of El Salvador has certainly fallen. But if they do not sell bitcoins during the period of its fall, then there will be no losses. Now El Salvador has no other way but to continue buying bitcoins during this period of decline.

That is very right. How can they be of debt if they are not selling their bitcoin stash? The value may have gone down but if they will not sell, then, there will be no losses. As the btc price is slowly going up again, only those who bought at the dip can get their profits. El Salvador is a strong believer of btc, the reason why they keep on buying. So I don't think they will panic and sell at a loss. Who knows, they are buying more on this price?

I also believe the government of El Salvador has calculated the worst that could happen if they decide to invest in Bitcoin. So since the beginning of
the government of El Salvador buying Bitcoin, they did plan to invest in Bitcoin in the long term. Because the government of El Salvador has studied
Bitcoin before, so they understand how to profit from Bitcoin. So with the decline in the price of Bitcoin that is happening now does not make
the government of El Salvador panic and sell the Bitcoin they have. Actually the government of El Salvador has nothing to lose as long as they don't
sell their Bitcoins, so the decline in the price of Bitcoin became an opportunity for the government of El Salvador to buy more Bitcoin.
Moreover, El Salvador has legalized Bitcoin as a legal tender, which means that the government of El Salvador is a strong believer of Bitcoin.
so the drop in Bitcoin price won't worry them.

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Quote from: Imran232 on January 24, 2022, 03:39:05 AM

We know that El Salvador was the first country to make bitcoin legal tender in their country. And he's doing all of this while the price of bitcoin is rising. And they continue to notify us about their new investment in bitcoin. How much bitcoin did they buy, and when did they buy it? How much did they spend on the average price of a bitcoin? Because of the recent massive drop in bitcoin, I assumed that this bitcoin drop had put them in debt. If this dump continues for some more weeks, then it might be problematic for the El Salvador government. Because the opposition party has something to blame them for any kind of debt. And because of the economy, stocks and fiat investors also have something to say against Bitocin. If this happens, then other countries will be really confused about making bitcoin legal tender. To make it legal tender, they might study the case of El Salvador.

It's just my speculation. What do you think about my speculation? I really appreciate your opinion.

It makes me wonder if you are confused about the definition of debt, at least in the context you have given. There is no debt with Bitcoin. Most countries are in debt regardless of cryptocurrency however because it is far more comfortable to spend money than it is to make money. Every country has a balance of imports versus exports, if they import a lot more than they export, then you will generally see them building up external debt over time. America is the most indebted country in the world, because others are willing to lend them money because they have always paid back their bonds and it is a stable, productive country. El Salvador may have borrowed money to buy the initial seed of Bitcoin or they might have had a surplus pot which meant no extra funding was involved at all. Do not assume that because something is paid up front, that it must involve debt.

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Quote from: Ozero on January 25, 2022, 01:10:47 PM

I have previously thought about the question of how the sharp drop in the price of bitcoin will affect the economy of El Salvador. It is clear that this will not be better. Previously, the wealth of the state was measured by the level of gold and foreign exchange reserves, in this case, it is probably more appropriate to use the term capitalization of the economy. The capitalization of El Salvador has certainly fallen. But if they do not sell bitcoins during the period of its fall, then there will be no losses. Now El Salvador has no other way but to continue buying bitcoins during this period of decline.

Since the first bitcoins they bought since last June, bitcoin price crashed several times and by checking the times when El Salvador decided to buy more bitcoins we can see it's a drop time. Means that this time it's the best for it to buy and hold more. And as they don't cash them out, it can still be considered as a winning situation.
By accumulating more than 1k bitcoins, El Salvador becomes a major player in the global bitcoin market and i don't expect them to have any doubts or fearness due to the price dropping.
At the same time, the price drop is not a good situation for small investors who follow their government decision without to know that it's so risky to deal with bitcoin .

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This is just like saying institutions who have invested into Bitcoins are in debt now just because the value has dropped and it doesn't makes sense. They are government and not a newbie to panic sell the Bitcoins just for a drop of around 20% it shouldn't be concerning them as the Bitcoin will not be spent until it pumps back and infact bitcoin will be gamechanger for them if they buy during dips.

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Quote from: Ozero on January 25, 2022, 01:10:47 PM

I have previously thought about the question of how the sharp drop in the price of bitcoin will affect the economy of El Salvador. It is clear that this will not be better. Previously, the wealth of the state was measured by the level of gold and foreign exchange reserves, in this case, it is probably more appropriate to use the term capitalization of the economy. The capitalization of El Salvador has certainly fallen. But if they do not sell bitcoins during the period of its fall, then there will be no losses. Now El Salvador has no other way but to continue buying bitcoins during this period of decline.

That is very right. How can they be of debt if they are not selling their bitcoin stash? The value may have gone down but if they will not sell, then, there will be no losses. As the btc price is slowly going up again, only those who bought at the dip can get their profits. El Salvador is a strong believer of btc, the reason why they keep on buying. So I don't think they will panic and sell at a loss. Who knows, they are buying more on this price?

andulolika

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Afaik salvador already profited and used profits from their first buy, and probably the rest counting how markets been going.

Ozero

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I have previously thought about the question of how the sharp drop in the price of bitcoin will affect the economy of El Salvador. It is clear that this will not be better. Previously, the wealth of the state was measured by the level of gold and foreign exchange reserves, in this case, it is probably more appropriate to use the term capitalization of the economy. The capitalization of El Salvador has certainly fallen. But if they do not sell bitcoins during the period of its fall, then there will be no losses. Now El Salvador has no other way but to continue buying bitcoins during this period of decline.

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Quote from: stompix on January 24, 2022, 05:02:35 AM

Not a problem, two pics of laser eyes and any issue is solved.
How you set up a fund in $ to buy BTC and then from that fund you spend profits in $ from something that is losing value but without selling BTC is beyond me.

Ah yeah, the state leadership proving once more that they have a deep inability and unwillingness to fix real economic and fiscal problems, but who can blame them when laser eyes is the easy fix that wins you Twitter followers and influencer approval, yeah?

I hate to say it but more and more we're going to see a lot of banking people who can't wait to use El Salvador as teachable moment fodder. Wonder if Bukele will soon be on the phone calling up them Miami conference friends and getting their voicemail. I suppose they could always NFT their Twitter profiles.

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El Salvador deserves to do better economically. He's doing his best to build up the nationals wealth through literally the best performing asset in the last decade.
Right now its looking worst decision but Wait for bitcoin To bounce and everyone will be praising him

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Bitcoin always trades in a certain range. It's mathematically improbable (if not impossible) for it to keep dropping month after month until $1000 or lower and that long term range is between the two last bull market tops, so 20-70k USD. Every analyst will tell you that this is where you can expect the price to be and it means that the lower you are able to buy in this range the less risky the investmnet becomes for you. Sooner or later the price will land in a different level of the same rande. Today it's at 34k and tomorrow it can be at 29, but in a month or 6 months it will eventually land somewhere else like 40 or 50k.

By selling you accept the current point of the range and exit. If Bukele ever decides to accept a level which means a loss for him, it's his choice, but he doesn't strike me as dumb.

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Yes, at this stage of market development it may seem to many that this is true and El Salvador really "unsuccessfully" invested his money, but this is not so. Firstly, this is a long-term investment and not a speculative one, so there is nothing to worry about, and secondly, we understand that this has already happened and more than once (especially those who have been here for a long time) understand that such recessions are only a correction and it is quite expected. There is no continuous growth anywhere, there is always a moment of change in rates, trends, and so on. Therefore, I think that El Salvador will still laugh at his critics when bitcoin takes another historical height.

tbct_mt2

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They are not in debt because what they own is an asset, not a liability. They are temporarily at loss based on their average entry price but not in debt.

At a loss and in a debt is different and it is over-exaggeration to call them in debt because of Bitcoin falls. In long run, they will have a big fortune if they hodl their Bitcoin long enough.

asus09

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the media circulating, the impact of the decline in el salvador debt bonds swelled to become one of the worst performers, but strangely when crypto was destroyed, el salvador actually bought bitcoin, president tayib bukele dared to buy bitcoin, maybe tayib bukele believed that one day bitcoin would high again, and will make their economy better again.

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Maybe if El Salvador have decided to sell, then we can say that the country have added more debt to it. Now they use the dip as an opportunity and adding more to the holding. Everyone were speculating the adoption by El Salvador, but very few have spoken about the negative part of the adoption. As El Salvador is a small country, even the fund spend on buying Bitcoin will constitute a big portion. So, the market crashes will also make some disturbance on the economic situation of the country. As the market will recover, El Salvador can use bitcoin as a tool to improve its economy in the long term.

Anonylz

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It is not as if the end of btc has come, am sure the president of El-Salvador must have taken this into account while making the decision to make btc their legal tender, before such a big step is taken (something that has to do with the entire countries economy) a lot of consideration, thorough analysis are being made to ensure utmost outcome, i don't think this decision was made on a light note hence proper precaution in case of situations like this must have been put in place.

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Quote from: Imran232 on January 24, 2022, 03:39:05 AM

Because of the recent massive drop in bitcoin, I assumed that this bitcoin drop had put them in debt. If this dump continues for some more weeks, then it might be problematic for the El Salvador government. Because the opposition party has something to blame them for any kind of debt

Debt? I guess you mean loss. They are probably buying BTC as a long term investment and not for quick flip so no worries if you buy the dip while it keeps dipping. That's why dollar cost average (which I guess they are doing) is a pretty good investment technique.

Quote from: mk4 on January 24, 2022, 08:00:06 AM

He has a nice sense of humour too!

https://twitter.com/nayibbukele/status/1485031106982428677

Lol, a good one.

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@Imran232, El Salvador was in trouble 20 years ago when it gave up its own currency, they are in trouble today, and probably will be in 10 years from today. Looking so narrowly and in the short term at things in the context of "the country is better or worse because of Bitcoin" really doesn't make sense.

Bitcoin can only be part of the solution, in this case as a tool that was primarily intended to save on remittance fees for their emigrants, and everything else is more in the realm of gambling in the long run. Your and many people's problem is that you look at Bitcoin only from the perspective of monetary value, and you completely ignore why it even exists. Maybe it's time to read the white paper, if anyone is interested in that at all...

Jawhead999

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Unrealized loss isn't actual loss, so El Salvador doesn't in debt due to Bitcoin price fall. They wouldn't bought Bitcoin by loan or using emergency funds, so they wouldn't sell their coins of this dump.

Well, when a country already accept Bitcoin as legal tender... they should treat Bitcoin value is 1BTC = 1BTC no matter what, just like how fiat money always got inflated but all people still treat it $1=$1. If their citizens can't treat 1BTC = 1BTC, they're still not trusting Bitcoin as legal tender.

aoluain

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The key words here are "LONG TERM" as per _act_'s post

There is constant obsession surrounding Bitcoin v FIAT, so many people think if the
market moves they are up or down while still holding the same amount of Bitcoin.
as per NeuroticFish's post the market doesnt automatically affect the
amount of Bitcoin held by anyone at any one time.

Quote from: Imran232 on January 24, 2022, 03:39:05 AM

...If this dump continues for some more weeks, then it might be problematic for the El Salvador government. Because the opposition party has something to blame them for any kind of debt. And because of the economy, stocks and fiat investors also have something to say against Bitocin. If this happens, then other countries will be really confused about making bitcoin legal tender. To make it legal tender, they might study the case of El Salvador.

It's just my speculation. What do you think about my speculation? I really appreciate your opinion.

I would imagine the opposition party can and will use the current down turn to
attack Bukele's government, this is normal and would happen anywhere.

Bukele will be able to defend their position on Bitcoin, he understands how the
markets move.

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Quote from: oHnK on January 24, 2022, 07:52:44 AM

Quote from: Leviathan.007 on January 24, 2022, 05:45:39 AM

The only person who can truly answer your question is Bukele himself and none else, because we cannot be sure if they sold any bitcoins and where exactly they bought bitcoins also as far as I know since they didn't sell any bitcoins, we cannot say if they didn't lose anything or they got profits out of it. On the other hand, we all know the price of bitcoin will increase in long term and even if El Salvador don't get anything and even lose in the short term they still can hold profits in the long term this will take some time but I'm sure holding 1801 bitcoins for El Salvador can help their economic situation.

Their economic condition with the decline in BTC prices will definitely have an impact. There is only one strategy that can be used to cover their losses which is to buy in large quantities at the price dip so as to drive positive vibes in the market with the source of power they use. Countries that legalize BTC must definitely experience this, it will never be possible, so this is a natural thing.

They invested a lot in Bitcoin and it was expected to see declines in their financial status but this never means that this brings them huge debts. I don't think it was good for them to buy more while they already have no capital yet and I don't it was a good idea to kept on deep just for this sake.
The decline is expected to happen but people don't anticipate it which is actually the reality. Though it looks bad seeing their situation, however, investing in crypto will give them an opportunity to pay those debts once the market turn to bullish again.

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Quote from: _act_ on January 24, 2022, 04:16:28 AM

No

El Salvador Government Debt to GDP

https://tradingeconomics.com/el-salvador/government-debt-to-gdp
....................

Thanks for your information, but fiat debt can't be news for poletics. Because they need news to blame the government. What they started from the beginning of bitcoin's legal tender. I hope you understand what I want to mean. And as I already mentioned, it's just a speculation, and if this happens, other countries might take it as a thread to make it legal. What is my concern?

Quote from: DdmrDdmr on January 24, 2022, 04:56:36 AM

<..........>

Thank you so much for your detailed and recent news regarding this topic. And I get what your opinion basically is.

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El Salvador sure is a really small and not-so-rich country, but do you really think they'd put that much funds into something that could drop and put them into debt? I'm pretty sure Bukele and his finance people aren't THAT incompetent. If they were really bullish on bitcoin but at the same time can think realistically, I'm pretty sure they'll have money for dips and crashes.

He has a nice sense of humour too!

https://twitter.com/nayibbukele/status/1485031106982428677

oHnK

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Quote from: Leviathan.007 on January 24, 2022, 05:45:39 AM

The only person who can truly answer your question is Bukele himself and none else, because we cannot be sure if they sold any bitcoins and where exactly they bought bitcoins also as far as I know since they didn't sell any bitcoins, we cannot say if they didn't lose anything or they got profits out of it. On the other hand, we all know the price of bitcoin will increase in long term and even if El Salvador don't get anything and even lose in the short term they still can hold profits in the long term this will take some time but I'm sure holding 1801 bitcoins for El Salvador can help their economic situation.

Their economic condition with the decline in BTC prices will definitely have an impact. There is only one strategy that can be used to cover their losses which is to buy in large quantities at the price dip so as to drive positive vibes in the market with the source of power they use. Countries that legalize BTC must definitely experience this, it will never be possible, so this is a natural thing.

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The only person who can truly answer your question is Bukele himself and none else, because we cannot be sure if they sold any bitcoins and where exactly they bought bitcoins also as far as I know since they didn't sell any bitcoins, we cannot say if they didn't lose anything or they got profits out of it. On the other hand, we all know the price of bitcoin will increase in long term and even if El Salvador don't get anything and even lose in the short term they still can hold profits in the long term this will take some time but I'm sure holding 1801 bitcoins for El Salvador can help their economic situation.

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Quote from: Imran232 on January 24, 2022, 03:39:05 AM

I assumed that this bitcoin drop had put them in debt.

Why?!

If looking from the fiat perspective, they would be in debt from the moment they've bought the BTC, since that's when they've paid the fiat.
If looking from Bitcoin perspective, nothing has change, since 1 BTC = 1 BTC.
What has actually change is that:
* the individuals holding Bitcoin are now at a potential loss (it will be real loss only if the spend)
* the prices seen in bitcoin will be bigger (since the calculation base is USD)

As said, it may look bad now as investment and it can be seen that they're at a potential loss. But it's not a real loss until the point the investment is liquidated. (1BTC = 1BTC, remember?)
But since the goal is using Bitcoin as a currency and the coins bought by the country are there for backing/helping the money flow, I see no loss there.

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Quote from: Imran232 on January 24, 2022, 03:39:05 AM

And they continue to notify us about their new investment in bitcoin. How much bitcoin did they buy, and when did they buy it? How much did they spend on the average price of a bitcoin?

Nobody knows for sure as the only proof for that is Bukele licking the dip each time, and each time after the comes to congratulate himself for the buy the price drops more. Quite ironic taking into account how bitcoin was supposed to bring transparency and stuff like that for governments.

As for the debt, even if BTC goes to zero, the amount is negligible even for Salvador, 1800 coins make roughly $60m spent, by comparison, they have issued bonds worth 400 million to finance their yearly deficit from government spending. They wanted 1.3 billion from the IMF also, when you're that much in debt already 60 million is nothing and unless BTC goes to 500k it won't matter either way.
The bad part in this is that if the country really gets into trouble because of constant deficits everyone will point the finger at BTC as a cause when it's clearly not the case.

Quote from: DdmrDdmr on January 24, 2022, 04:56:36 AM

On top of that, they themselves have claimed that they had taken FIAT from the Trust to pay for the Pet Hospital and a bunch of schools, at a time when BTC was high and they had a conceptual surplus on the books (FIAT+BTC). Now the price drop plays against them on both fronts (BTC devaluation and FIAT usage when there is currently no surplus).

Not a problem, two pics of laser eyes and any issue is solved.
How you set up a fund in $ to buy BTC and then from that fund you spend profits in $ from something that is losing value but without selling BTC is beyond me.

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Quote from: Imran232 on January 24, 2022, 03:39:05 AM

<…>

A detailed relation of their bitcoin purchases over time can be seen here (lacking the 410 BTC latest purchase):

Quote from: DdmrDdmr on January 10, 2022, 03:34:02 PM

<...>

https://twitter.com/cobie/status/1479260281528373250

<...>

That brings the toll up to 1.801 BTCs so far, and yes, on the books, they are at a loss (even more so since the above data was using a BTC value of just over 43K$ for their calculus, and the current price is 34,5K$ (down 20%).

That does not mean they are in debt though (focusing on these BTC operations), but rather currently looking bad on their bookkeeping for their Bitcoin Trust. Allegedly, all these purchases have been made using their Bitcoin Trust, thus the overall bookkeeping value is currently below the value it should reflect. On top of that, they themselves have claimed that they had taken FIAT from the Trust to pay for the Pet Hospital and a bunch of schools, at a time when BTC was high and they had a conceptual surplus on the books (FIAT+BTC). Now the price drop plays against them on both fronts (BTC devaluation and FIAT usage when there is currently no surplus). How those bookeping numbers may shift to having potential consequences is yet to be seen though, and the hope, I guess, is that time sets things right.

_act_

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No

El Salvador Government Debt to GDP

https://tradingeconomics.com/el-salvador/government-debt-to-gdp

El Salvador first bought bitcoin in August 2021, see their dept if compared to their GDP from 2012 to 2020, you can see their dept has been increasing from year to year before the country adopt bitcoin as a legal tender. El Salvador accept bitcoin as a legal tender in August 2021.

Bitcoin price will still increase, if bitcoin does not favour El Salvador in short time, it will favour in long time.

The last bitcoin knew El Salvador bought recently was few days ago when he bought bitcoin at a price of round $36000

https://twitter.com/nayibbukele/status/1484651539587289091

El Salvador is currently holding 1801 BTC

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zacharysmith/2022/01/21/el-salvador-buys-15-million-worth-of-bitcoin-really-cheap-president-crows-as-selloff-continues/amp/

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We know that El Salvador was the first country to make bitcoin legal tender in their country. And he's doing all of this while the price of bitcoin is rising. And they continue to notify us about their new investment in bitcoin. How much bitcoin did they buy, and when did they buy it? How much did they spend on the average price of a bitcoin? Because of the recent massive drop in bitcoin, I assumed that this bitcoin drop had put them in debt. If this dump continues for some more weeks, then it might be problematic for the El Salvador government. Because the opposition party has something to blame them for any kind of debt. And because of the economy, stocks and fiat investors also have something to say against Bitocin. If this happens, then other countries will be really confused about making bitcoin legal tender. To make it legal tender, they might study the case of El Salvador.

It's just my speculation. What do you think about my speculation? I really appreciate your opinion.

Topic: Is El Salvador in debt because of the bitcoin price drop? (Read 752 times)