Topic: Is Israel's current existence ironic? (Read 2491 times)

Yes, I guess depending on the word "persecution." For example, snotty upper class clubs in the 19th century and to a lesser extent the 20th century might have refused Jews was asked for membership.

But "Persecution" implies an active going after to do harm, where my above example is just a Jew applying to the local golf club, being refused.  Active "persecution," much much less.

May be of interest -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_United_States

Has there ever been?

"Are not" is present tense. There isn't currently persecution of Jews in America or Canada or Australia.

"Persecution" is a big word.

Honestly say that there is no country in the world where Jews are not persecuted. This is not so pronounced as in Muslim countries, but the latent antisemitism is everywhere. You want to say that this is not Russia?

More than 1 million Jews were living in various Islamic nations such as Egypt, Libya, Iraq, Yemen, Syria, and Morocco until the 1950s. These Jews were expelled by the Muslims, and the Jewish property was seized. Perhaps this is also the fault of Britain?

You mean it was the UN's fault for having a two thirds majority on the issue, right?

Imagine if Qibla of Muslims were still in Jerusalem, you could imagine what would've happened? in my honest opinion they should evacuate the city and reconstruct the temple with the current technology since they have the money and the means.

It's all the great Britain's fault, they were the ones told Jews to go back to Israel otherwise they were living and were happy spread out in the world.

As God has promised them not to see any good day because of their betrayals, they shall not settle down peacefully and have a land of their own.

Wait a minute. If we can't make note of someone's skin color we can make note of them being a Jew?

Thing about political correctness is, there is no one single "correct."

Instead with it emerges a population of PC Opinionators, who wish to tell you what and how to think. And they take marching orders from others, who get word from on high. Thus for you is decided what is "correct."

We are now speaking about a place with extreme political correctness (Sweden) instead of one with zero (Israel).

I find it funny that the ones saying we shouldn't be as extreme as Sweden are doing it to defend the other extreme which treats non-Jews as second class citizens or not even citizens at all. I'm pretty sure having institutionalized racism and a self-admitted apartheid state is worse than trying to create the best version of society possible and going overboard a bit.

Of course, without data on race, we wouldn't know much. We wouldn't know how often blacks murder blacks, blacks murder whites, or whites murder blacks. We wouldn't know if and when cops kill a black kid.

And there'd be no ability to check White, African-American, Asian, Hispanic, Other on government forms.

Please stop lecturing, until those checkboxes on government forms are gone.

But if we couldn't stereotype, people wouldn't have convenient targets for their generic, unfocused hate

In time, as our social technologies continue to develop, we will look back and retroactively identify the true reason for criminality, which is poverty. But as crime is a talking point in American politics, a huge one, the rhetoric has gone dog whistle rather than the overt racism we saw only a few short decades ago. So, much easier to make a skin color, or a culture, a scapegoat.  This is the negative side of populism that comes out EVERY time it's presented. rather than a national pride that goes along with an appreciation for other cultures, it's a xenophobia punctuated with ridicule for certain, target cultures, and a national selfishness; an unwillingness to assist others on a global scale.

You are right. These rules are indirectly helping the criminals.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/swedish-police-are-not-allowed-to-give-descriptions-of-alleged-criminals-so-as-not-to-sound-racist-a6810311.html

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2016/01/17/swedish-police-instructed-to-withhold-from-public-suspects-skin-color-and-ethnicity-to-avoid-being-labeled-racist/

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/01/15/2784799/

While looking for the suspects, the Swedish police can't say that the individual belongs to a particular ethnic group, speaks a particular language, or is having a particular skin color. Welcome to the world of rabid political correctness.

That is obviously bad, free speech should be sacred, however also identifying people based on their skin color is not really fair.

An individual is an individual, and if he is criminal, then he is. But to expand his criminality to his entire race is very unfair.

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. I have a dream today!" -  Martin Luther King Jr.

What a bullshit! If he has this skin color it is not an insult but a statement of facts. It seems to me that such rules we provoke terrorists and criminals. Isn't that harassment of other residents? I like smoke and I was restricted only special Smoking areas. Isn't this infringe upon my rights?

This is a total lie. The Palestinians basically suggested the Holocaust to Hitler:


uploading sites for free

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini

---

Even after all of that tyranny and atrocity, Jews still opened up their heart to the Palestinians, because they are humble and forgiving, but they refused it, and now the Palestinians are always doing evil and murdering people.

Israel basically subsidizes the entire West Bank because Palestinians are not capable of doing anything productive with their time but to bash Jews and invent conspiracy theories.

Every single time Israel lends out a hand to them, they always refuse, and shortly thereafter they commit some bad things.

How can you reason with these people? Are their fanatic hatred so strong that it blinds their rational thinking capacities.



You have to really admire what Israel went through all these years, all the unprovoked wars, the hatred and the crimes that arabs do in that region.


Israel is really a miracle despite all the bad things that were happening in that region. They build skyscrapers, and their economy is flourishing. This is what happens when you have a wise and intelligent Jewish population that has it's morality based on freedom and equality and wisdom. A tradition of 5000 years. Well done.

Who is stressing?

Anyway, since it was the United Nations that gave the land to Israel, shouldn't the hate of all the haters be directed at the UN?

Your God is racist against everyone except Jews? Interesting.

We don't have to stress at all. God's going to destroy every nation and army trying to take Israel away from the Jewish people. 

How many Christian Palestinians have you spoken with directly?

I don't think you have a good grasp of the situation.

The threat for Christian Palestinians comes from their own Muslim colleagues, and not from the Israelis. A few decades back, more than 30% of the Palestinians were Christian. Now the figure is around 8%. Do you know the reason?

yet more deflection...

you should check the historical timeline:



jewish racism against christian in israel is real, it is not a muslim conspiracy.
its a small ultra right minority that is increasing in numbers day by day. shit comes from both sides everywhere...

I am an atheist, you may be interested to know. I have no interest in fairy tales of any flavor.

If you would have bothered to read more than one sentence, you'd know they were close to 10.8% of Palestinian Arabs before getting evicted from their land by the Israelis and becoming refugees. Thank you for demonstrating your ignorance and short attention span.

The positive proof of your Zionism is the use of "Muslim" as a negative connotation and your attempts at associating it with terrorism. Consequently, it's also shown in your belief that because the Christian Palestinians are "1%" now they are worthless people that shouldn't even be mentioned in a discussion of their own history, country, and future. Zionists want to erase Palestinian history and pretend it doesn't exist, it makes them feel better about land theft.

Well written fairy tales from 2000 years ago just confirm it for them 100% that they should not feel bad but in fact should rejoice since they are God's special children. The last part of my sentence is from the fairy tale as I'm sure you'd know.

Yes he is correct, if you consider 1% "many," or if you consider ignoring 1% as positive proof of someone being a Zionist.

Let's consider 1% "very few," shall we? Better, let's just ignore them, and use .... "the Muslim religion to group Palestinians."

lol...now let's get back to the assertion I made which above attempt at deflecting it failed.

Why is it "not wise" to note that the Muslim hero, Yassir Arafat, was a common thug who organized over 400 terrorist bombings?

Baritus is totaly correct on this point.
Here is a a little summary and starting point for research:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Christians

It's obvious you're a Zionist from your use of the Muslim religion to group Palestinians. Many Palestinians are Christians and they hate Israel just as much.

Additionally, self defense is not terrorism. Fighting colonialism is not terrorism. Revolution is not terrorism. Otherwise, America was founded by terrorists fighting against the British.

Give us a link to to law.
My google is broken. Thank you.

Sweden has made it an offense to mention the skin color or the race of the perpetrator, in case of violent offenses such as rape and murder. If you mention the skin color of the criminal, then you will go to jail. An example of how rabid the political correctness can be.

Sad but true, the only chance for Israel is to be tough on the people around them in an attempt to ensure that the people around them (Arab Countries) aren't trying to take advantage of them in any way. Everyone in the world knows that if Israel didn't have such a good military and military tech the Arab countries around them probably would've devoured them by this point from some bullshit religious hatred and partisan hatred from the 40's

Dude, if the jewish people were doing this the NEWS would make sure to point it out so something would happen. They never care about when the Arabs kill eachother though, that's just normal practice at this point.

Sad.

I agree there were people there before Israel. There is a record of Palestinian terrorism toward the British going back to the early 1900s.

Why is it "not wise" to note that the Muslim hero, Yassir Arafat, was a common thug who organized over 400 terrorist bombings?

Na. Look at pinoyland. Better pray for them. They will be gone soon and nobody will miss them

@topic

Read this for some facts about israel and palestina:

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/paul-pillar/diverting-attention-the-tragedy-palestine-20396

The reality is

1) Jews paid a huge price in WWII, then some Jews, the Zionists, capitalized on the price other Jews had paid, by using the holocaust to maneuver their way to a political state.

2) Jews were heavily discriminated against in Europe pre WWII. Nobody questions that. Europe was not safe for Jews. Some people can argue that "Jews did this" or "Jews did that", but truthfully Judaism is a developed tradition with an acceptable morality so broad criticism of Jews to justify their restriction in a society is not valid unless the same restrictions apply to others. The evidence is more that Jews, like other groups that integrate, must first open themselves to projection from the first inhabitants, they must first be the shadow or villain, before they can incorporate.

3) Nonsense about "their were no people in Palestine pre zionist" or "there were no Palestinians" does not work in favor of that incorporation. It creates a false concept that is harmful not only to Jews but to others. Similarly skewed nonsense like your reference to '400 terrorist bombings' are not wise.

They look to the glory days when they are a global power. That's why every radical would be claiming they're working to bring back the caliphate. The "glory days" coincided with the time they were very secure and wealthy - mostly because it was them doing all the invading. And yet when they talk about European colonialists... IMHO they are just bitter the kafirs beat them to world domination. Kafirs are not meant to be victors, they must be dhimmi.


And yet those poor Europeans are still dreaming of their multiculturalist utopia being a standard across the world. Sigh. Sweden has even been accused of covering up abuses done by the immigrunts. Almost every journalist that has been to Rikeby has been attacked. To be fair with them, how do you arrest rapefugees that mob and molest girls at concerts when most of the people there are rapefugees.

Europeans - they will be missed.

you mean, take their money and scout out good places for devout brother in law to blow up? Fund his work then take his wife?

I think that the success of many Jews started the mechanism of repression. People are just jealous of Jews and their success. The Arabs are doing the same as Hitler. They simply have no strength to destroy Israel. However, this does not prevent the Palestinians EN masse to go to work in Israel.

After all, multiculturalism is such a good thing. 

Third world rapefugees sexually abusing native women in the European states can be such a good sign of the growing multiculturalism and cultural enrichment coming to the western nations.

You got to admit, it's a big move to change the crusade from "Kill all the Jews" to "Kill all the Infidels."

Of course taking over the world and establishing a Caliphate would mean some crazies directed to a town near you.

Problem is a few crazy ones could be coming to a town near you.

Actually it's not clear who's exterminating who down there and like a real American would do, i don't give a fuck as long as they exterminate each other a long way from my body.

Really?

By any objective measure it's Arabs who are exterminating Arabs (along with various other people-types).

Even before the foundation of Israel, the Jews had some of the highest standards of living in the world. And despite the holocaust and the numerous wars, they were able to build their new country from scratch.

There is nothing ironic about survival. Nazis tried to exterminate Jews because they wanted more wealth, more nazis to exist The US & Russia didn't let Nazis because it would harm them too.

Israel exterminates Arabs there because no-one is stopping them. They will keep doing it till someone hammers them down.

Human rights is all bullshit. No one cares who kills who unless it doesn't benefit them.

One of the big lies is that the Great Powers created the nation state of Israel. The United Nations did with a two thirds majority vote. The Arab nations were united in opposition.

Even though the proposal included steps for the creation of a Palestinian state, that didn't matter. They couldn't stand the idea of a Jewish state. It's not a matter of equal for the two sides, they have to have it all and have the Jews have nothing. That's the way they were, and that's the way they are.

Hence a Palestinian "leader," Yassir Arafat, with over 400 terrorist bombings and atrocities to his credit. Hence today, 10% of the Palestinian Authority toward terrorist support. Hence today, massive propaganda, including the initial premises of this thread.

Who would not say anything, but the Jews know how to live and build their country. Despite years of conflict with their neighbors, they are like outcasts all over the world and yet their standard of living is much better than in many countries around the world.

The Palestinians were not a people in the first place. The land was just a region in the Ottoman empire. The whole idea that Israel is oppressing the Palestinians is just a way for people to hate Israel. The situation is kind of like if the USA was to be completely destroyed and new countries took over the land, but people who lived in America in the area once known as California decided they wanted land so they started to complain the the country that exists in what was once California is oppressing the Californians and that they should get the land that was taken from them. It wouldn't make much sense to give them the land would it? they didn't do anything to deserve that land did they? no. Its not a perfect example but it gets the point across. There was never a Palestinian people so why should we give them land?

Jews are already there prior to establisment of Israel. They would have been massacred had they not fought back. UN tried to resolve the problem, Arabs rejected it. Israel has offered them various deals and moved out of Gaza, they rejected it.

This is the same elsewhere where you have Muslims as minorities. Give them deals, and if they accept it, soon enough violence would be breaking out again and they'll be asking for more.


LOL, this is as funny as those people claiming Earth is just 6000 years old. True, Romans expelled Jews from Judea (and also renamed it to "Palestina" but Jews has started come back to place before Arabs arrived. Jews have been living in the Middle East prior to the Arab conquest, which is why Muhammad has asked help from them against the pagans of Mecca and tried to have them join his new religion. (Jews and Christians, as expected, rejected it)


Give a crocodile a bite of your finger, next it will ask for a hand. Give that to it and then it'll ask for the whole arm.

The Jews built in the desert economically developed country. All other neighbouring areas in decline. For me it is an indicator. Give the Arabs Israel, and a few years there will again be a desert. Why do it?

Really?

One more time.

Resolution 181 also laid the foundation for the creation of an Arab state, but its neighbour states and the Arab League, which rejected all attempts at the creation of a Jewish state, rejected the plan.

I dont know, im not american. In any case, throughout history, man has always been doing the same thing all over the world, invading and subjecting the minority to their interests.

What would you call what Israel has done to the Palestinian people? Maybe ethnic cleansing is not the most appropriate term in this case, but it is a mass murder.

Can I know your education, sir?

Arabs have not lived in Palestine for thousands of years, because old arabic was reserved for southern part of Arabian peninsula until CONQUEST (see the pattern?!) by prophet Mohammed. Exterminating or assimilating opposition in the process. Palestine and Levant two to three millenia ago was inhabitated by people who spoke and practiced Aramaic, old Hebrew, Assyrian and perhaps Greek and Persian culture. Not your "Arabs".

What the hell?

Ofcourse Arabs rejected it.
Israel has nothing to do in the Middle East, there's been 3000 years since the last time Jews habitated these areas
Arabs lived here for thousands of years, only to be chased out and overpopulated at the time of the Second World War
Hebrews should of gone to Madagascar
This land rightfully belongs to the Arabs

Perhaps Israel must expel the Palestinians to any of the 50+ Muslim nations around the world. Arab nations don't allow Jews to reside on their territory. During the 1950s and the 1960s, most of the Jews living in these nations were expelled. Then why shouldn't the Jews retaliate in kind?

The Palestinians do not like to work. They do nothing and at the same time very jealous of the Israelites. They have chosen the path of terror. Who is interested in destabilizing the situation in the middle East pay them money, and they commit acts of terrorism. For me, the Palestinians are not people.

Just a bunch of innocent angels living their lives and have nothing to do with others they can't even harm an ant, let them be will you? those poor souls even have their walls around them waiting for the bus to come and then jump on it straight to heaven.
I mean they couldn't possibly buy one of the states in US with their wealth and have their own country and since US is their friend I'm sure they wouldn't mind that, but they have to be exactly in that very geographic spot on earth? I'm sure they have their reasons.

I have many friends living in Israel. I can't say that they want war with the Arabs. But once the Arabs satisfied with any attack, they immediately rush into battle. Sooner or later they would destroy Palestine.

Because that's what the Arabs WANT. It's not what Israel want.

Look at the history.

Resolution 181 also laid the foundation for the creation of an Arab state, but its neighbour states and the Arab League, which rejected all attempts at the creation of a Jewish state, rejected the plan.

there are good reasons to oppose the actions of israel and international jewry in general but this is childish nonsense, there's no difference between how israel was founded and let's say the usa or australia with natives being killed or kicked out to make way for settlers who wanted to be in the majority, whether we like it or not israelis have acquired national rights by dint of being born in that country and they aren't going to voluntarily disestablish their country and leave themselves open to the zimbabwe treatment or something much worse.

It seems to me that Israel will never be able to coexist peacefully with Palestine. This is a problem of unfinished war. As it is not sad, but someone has to win and cease to exist. In another such conflicts are not solved. Only war until will remain only one country.

Let's ask a different question instead. What if instead of trying to form a nation as the British left, the Jews just chilled out? "Oh, Arabs, we don't have problems with them, they probably won't do anything to us when the colonial lords leave."


I suppose this is similar to what the Greeks felt as they see the Ottomans rushing through a breach on Constantinople's walls?



Can't argue with this.

I'm not against Jews, but it turns out that the fate of one nation decided by the fate of another. It is also not correct. And this problem will be solved soon.

That land was just given back to it's original owners.

i can't stand anti semitism. i also can't stand the criticism of israel being called anti semitism.

alot of the time they're oppressive scum. but if they weren't they'd probably be wiped out.

I wonder how we would feel about the native americans and native canadians, if 10% of their revenue from all operations on tribal lands including the casinos, were dedicated toward terrorist and suicide bombings in the American heartland.

That's the comparable with the Palestine Authority today.

I wonder how the native americans and native canadians feel about us? Our ancestors in the west killed millions of them all for land. At least the israelies haven't done the ethnic cleansing like us westerners did not so long ago..

Except that's not what happened. What happened is that two thirds of the nations of the world voted to do this in the 1947 UN resolution.

On November 29, 1947, the General Assembly recommended the adoption and implementation of a Plan of Partition with Economic Union, General Assembly Resolution 181, a slightly modified version of that proposed by the majority in the Report of September 3, 1947, 33 votes in favor, 13 against, and 10 abstentions.[13] The vote itself, which required a two-third majority, was a dramatic affair. It led to celebrations in the streets of Jewish cities, but was rejected by the Arab Palestinians and the Arab League.

Within a few days, full scale Jewish–Arab fighting broke out in Palestine.[14] It also led to anti-Jewish violence in Arab countries,[15] and to a Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries.

"On May 14, 1948, on the day in which the British Mandate over Palestine expired, the Jewish People's Council gathered at the Tel Aviv Museum, and approved" a "proclamation" which declared "the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz Israel, to be known as the State of Israel",[16]

Resolution 181 also laid the foundation for the creation of an Arab state, but its neighbour states and the Arab League, which rejected all attempts at the creation of a Jewish state, rejected the plan. In the introduction to the cablegram[17] from the Secretary-General of the League of Arab States to the UN Secretary-General on 15 May 1948, the Arab League gave reasons for its "intervention": "On the occasion of the intervention of Arab States in Palestine to restore law and order and to prevent disturbances prevailing in Palestine from spreading into their territories and to check further bloodshed".

The same day, five Arab states invaded and rapidly occupied much of the Arab portion of the partition plan. This war changed the dynamic of the region, transforming a two-state plan into a war between Israel and the Arab world. During this war, resolution 194 reiterated the UN's claim on Jerusalem and resolved in paragraph 11 "that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date". This resolution, accepted immediately by Israel, is the major legal foundation of the Palestinian right of return claim, a major point in peace negotiations. Resolution 194 also called for the creation of the United Nations Conciliation Commission for Palestine. The Arab states initially opposed this resolution, but within a few months, began to change their position, and became the strongest advocates of its refugee and territorial provisions.[18]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel,_Palestine,_and_the_United_Nations

Im disagree... I dont think that all states in the world are formed by the same way with the same terms, but i think that i understand what you want to say...
if i understand your point, Im agree that people have to defend their territories and not give them to the first one that happens, but even this, years and years of punishment after that are not justifiable.
I know the role of Israel in the world and i dont like it. It seems that we have to forgive everything they do and did, because they suffer the holocaust.
And in the meantime, the international community act like nothing happens there just because Israel have powerfull friends, and is well known that we all have to obey the master.

I don't think it makes so much of a difference. One is sarcastic and one is lying, something like that.

CigaLeider,

you just described formation of every state in existence ever. Look at history of your own country.

I know, that these days millenials take Founding Fathers as a joke, but what they were saying was not a joke. If you are unwilling to defend your land along with your neighbours, if you go as far as selling said land to foreigners (just look how exactly did Jews manage to buy large swathes of the region from locals) - then perhaps you dont deserve it more than they do.

For your reference, my own people do the same mistake in regards to EU and its Arab colonizators. Calling detractors of said colonization as "nazis" and "russian agents". But I stand my ground - if those morons dont defend their freedoms and their neighbourhoods, Arabs will take them over and rightfully so. Deepest circle of hell is reserved for traitors and cowards.

But I am glad "is very simple" in your mind. God bless you.

Nope, is very simple. Just imagine that you live quietly in your country, territory or whatever you want to call it, then for reasons beyond your control (wars in this case) immigrants begin to arrive to your country. Despite not being the majority, one day they decide that this territory is theirs (thanks to the approval of a country foreign to that territory) and form a independent state and the rest, do what you want but outside my territory. Try to be empathic and think what you would do...

So in my opinion...fuck israelites, i hope one day they recieved all things they did x100000000000000. If they did not have the support of the great powers, in which most powerful people are Jews, they would be nothing...Probably a palestinian more.

HabBear,

I think its bit more complicated than that.

1) There were no Palestinians before formation of modern Israel, just native arabized tribes. Palestinian nationhood only started forming as a reaction to Israeli settlement. You could see parallel to First Nations in North America.

2) If Israel did withold water from local arabic population, said population would just die of thirst.

3) Israelis indeed do treat Arabs as second class citizens, thats completely correct. Its worth mention however that United States put people of japanese descent into concentration camps after Pearl Harbor and kept them in isolation until imminent danger of invasion passed. Sometimes ideals have to take backseat, when national security is at stake.

Now, if you watch news, youd get this idea that Israelis are middle eastern superpower - while quite developed, its still seven million people surrounded by hundred plus million Arabs, who are more or less hostile since turbulent creation of the state.

...or hypocritical?

The Jewish people were oppressed by Nazi Germany. As a result, they were granted land in Palestine...a place for them to have their own sovereign state, Israel. Israel now withholds water and other resources from native Palestinians in the West Bank, oppressing them.

Ironic or Hypocritical or Hype or Justified or ....?

Thoughts?