Topic: is Saylor sued by Washington (DC) an attack to BTC? (Read 332 times)

It is not an attack on bitcoin. Taxes have to be collected no matter how rich you are and where you decide to move to. Sounds alot like what John McAfee had been doing for years until they put out a warrant for his arrest if he ever touch US soil.

This is not new to Saylor. He had been sued by the SEC before.

he has not made losses either

he has sold no bitcoin. meaning no selling at a loss. thus no loss to declare.

the 6 month tax residency thing is something both uk and america follow
the capital gains AT SELL apply to both
income tax based on residency is the same

and yet seems a few people in this forum dont even know these basics.
if you dont know what the rules are then you guys dont know how to avoid (rather than evade) tax
.. its worth learning the basics to atleast work out the legal loophopes

whether you are ok with paying or against paying tax.. for both sides its worth knowing tax rules so you can protect yourself from under-overpaying/avoiding-evading

Also, Michael Saylor has no capital gains where the IRS can find a reason to tax hehe. However, he can ask from the IRS to give him a tax break because of his big capital losses on bitcoin of more than $1 billion hehehehe. He can make a settlement with the government to use the tax break for the income tax hehehehe.

As others said it does not concern the BTC community, this is Saylor's problem personally.

We are told on one side that it is important to pay your taxes for your country's welfare, on the other side we're told that it's more glamorous to evade paying your taxes to live a more luxurious lifestyle - this is at the expense of being poached by public opinion.

In all cases everywhere, public opinion is the only thing that matters, since that is the culmunation of the moral compass of all the citizens, including government officials and the wealthy. So no, it wasn't right for Saylor to jump his income taxes.

DC is only after him for his income tax..
.. not his capital gains or corporation tax. so its not really bitcoin related..

.. its more of just a social interest event of someone that is a bitcoiner, having legal drama over personal issues outside of bitcoin

that said from the sounds of the "whistleblower" the only people in saylors "personal circle" that could lose or gain from whistleblowing about his income tax drama, is his accountant/cfo

could this be a case of saylor firing/not paying his accountant and jealousy/vengeance ensued to try to get some money in damages(25% of proceeds) out of saylor, whilst using whistleblower status to not have the accountant/cfo in legal trouble aswell for advising saylor

 The AG also alleged in the lawsuit that the then financial officer of Microstrategy approached saylor and cautioned him on the matter of tax evasion and how it might affect the company and further went ahead to reach an agreement to reducing his pay to a $1m.

I doubt that which such an effort taken by the company, they should be roped in with him as from the looks of it, this is his own problem. And again, in as much as he has about 17,732 worth of Bitcoin, I strongly doubt it would affect Bitcoin. Elon Musk sold off major of Tesla's Bitcoin, nothing happened.

if saylor did get X income in 2014+ and income tax was Y% in florida (0%). and he did pay Y% of X to florida($0) by filing tax papers in florida. which were accepted by florida.
then there is no fraud

then he can prove he did not evade tax by showing his florida tax filings that were accepted by florida..
by which washington, if not happy.. should take up the argument with florida..

funny part is the court filing admits he takes a plane out of washington alot (leaves washington=not stays), which means the number of nights in washington are less than they will admit to

next funny part is they mention a "relator" who has personal knowledge of MS, part of his inner circle,  a personal witness and confidant(and now whistleblower..)
.. someone in MS's friends group is jealous

funny how they want to say if he leaves washington for temporary absense periods (a week or two)
EG if he works one day in DC but then goes back to florida for 6 days. they treat returning to florida  as a 'temporary absense', but still treat the week as 7 days in washington.
all because he owns property in DC
where as spending just a couple hours in DC is treated as residing in DC for that day

https://oag.dc.gov/sites/default/files/2022-08/Tributum%20v.%20Saylor%20-%20DC%20FCA%20Complaint_0.pdf

so this is where i think they are trying to say he stayed in DC for more then 6 months because they are excluding all his weekend/non work day trips back to florida. ignore any days/weeks he is away for business stuff, and pretend even when on vacation on some exotic island means he is still in DC at the same time..

i can see MS easily fighting the claims made by an old buddy of his, though i expect it will just be settled at a discount rate.. its only civil court case after all
..
got to love the contradictions of the accuser
admits going to florida alot
suggests he spent some time in a penthouse called trigate for "portions" of time in 2013
however
thus not living in a construction site in 2013

additionally
1998-2022 =24 years
"thousands" of flights.. lets call it 2400 for easy math
so he was flying OUT of DC atleast 50 times a year(2.4k/24=100. = 50 out 50 in)
so he was going somewhere 50 times a year out of state.. out of 52 weeks a year.
seems to me thats more times away than within.

if he was only doing 2-4-10 flights a year, maybe they would have a case. but atleast 33 times.. well now they really need to prove the 183day rule


lastly
millions of investors own property in lots of places. if just owning property for more then 6 months = have to pay income tax there..  due to ignoring they days they are not in the property(facepalm)

then dang. someone earning $100m(demo number) with 6 properties in 6 states with 20% tax. means that person pays $120m in tax combined on $100m income meaning they are losing money by working

The argument has an overwhelming logic, underlying many cases, which is as follows:

Michael Saylor holds Bitcoin.
Michael Saylor is (allegedly) a tax fraudster.
Therefore, people who hold Bitcoin are tax fraudsters.

If there is anyone foolish enough not to see the fallacy, I won't even waste a second explaining it.

Agreed, to mention that this is an attack on bitcoin is head shaking. No one can escape the tax collectors in America hehehe. They are famous for this. This is also why the saying in life you cannot escape death and taxes was invented because the IRS always makes everyone pay their taxes.

If Michael Saylor is being charged for tax evasion, this is because he did not pay his taxes, this is not because he holds bitcoin.

you have to remember, fiat is their product/patent.
they decide how much they produce and they decide how much they can take back.
they set the rules for its use and they set the limits of who how when people can use it.
no one alive today has had experience of any other system that pre-dates this system so talking about it as if we had something better before is talking about how other people along time ago had something better.. not us

thats why bitcoin was invented. for us to have something thats not their patent/product.

we can try to lobby/petition the voted in[gym managers] to change some rules but i think they would be very reluctant to change their [gym] fee policies

they only want to do it when they feel it will earn them something. like voting hem in in the next 4-5 years

Government prints plenty of cash through the Central Bank . Government should not have rights to collect tax at all. All the tax people pay should be donation to charity.

We need to work out and   change Governments protocol of tax collection. Tax was introduced by the old imperial governing system. That time gold was the currency. No Government could just create gold as they wish. So for the public service Government needed tax from the public.

Now we are living in the modern world. Government is printing huge quantities of cash  by quatitagive easing. So the tax should  ot be necessary for Government to raise money for public service. Let's work together and enforce Government to delete the taxation protocol and free humanity from imperialis.

and thats the illusion
imagine a jurisdiction like the inside of a gym
while on their property its their rules
they do allow you as gym members to vote to change the management team every 4-5 years, and have a not so public mechanism to petition/lobby to change the rules. but the only way to never pay any gym membership fee, is at basic level to leave the gym and not return within x period. or there are other loopholes if you do some research
but being outside of one means your inside another gym there the gyms will argue which gym you are a member of

Good luck trying to catch all the bitcoiners around the world 
I don't know what Saylor was doing, but taxes are getting crazy, and there are no connections between Micheal Saylor and Tornado Cash, but in future they could always try to add new restrictions and regulations for Bitcoin and mining.
I think people need to understand that governments should be working for the people, we pay them and we can always fire them, one way or another.

got to laugh
so reading the article..

he has been a resident of florida for a decade, and pays his taxes in florida and such.(thus not tax evading)
but because he spent more then the 6 month threshold in washington in 2014. they want to imply that he owes hundreds of millions of dollars to washington.. oh and hen tripple that amount and add on fee's too

seems they just were not happy that florida got its full income tax for a year where florida should have only got 50% and washington get 50% for 2014

i think washington should be mad at florida for taking washingtons half that washington things it deserves

if i made say $100m(random number i chose) with a 40% tax amount
and i actually paid to some government the $40m
then i paid my piece. i done my part

its for them to then fight over which department/jurisdiction should get a cut of it
not have another state demand another 40m and then triple it and add fee's because that state didnt get their share

using my random number demo
easily solution.. get washington treasury to call up florida treasury and ask for the half of the $40m(demo number) that florida got

....

also. things i have done myself in my travels
if i plan to go to a country for 3 months. then go somewhere else. and then come back for another 3 months.

usually means trying to find a rental that only handles monthly/3month rents.(hard to find and usually more of a premium to book those in 22 short 3 month allotments)
however finding a 9-12 month rental surprisingly is cheaper that 2x3month

so although it may show i have a rental for 9 months. does not mean i sleep in that rentals bed for more then 6+ months non stop.

oh..
and if he was to tax evade. there are such simpler loopholes that can be used. far more then being a nomad/traveller.. far easier than being away from family friends/work for 6 months.

True, I would say that those who are connecting the dots have their narratives behind (maybe anti -bitcoin), or just simply ignorance of Saylor. He is not like Elon Musk, who always open his mouth to talk about bitcoin and then do the opposite. They can't blame Saylor for seeing the future, a visionary and what bitcoin can bring. It's that the Office of the Attorney General see some merits on the case to sue him and not bitcoin. Heck the amount that he is being sued could be paid by him easily and this is not coming from his bitcoin investment.

Bitcoin is under attack from the Gensis block to this day, but that does not mean that the incident with Saylor is something that can be characterized as some kind of special attack on Bitcoin. Saylor is not nearly as influential as some others (if we look at social networks), and if he owes $25 million in taxes, that's not something he personally or the company should worry about.

From what can be read, the prosecutor will have the difficult task of proving where Saylor stayed and for how long during the year, and it seems that his private jet and the pilot's statements will play a crucial role. One sarcastic comment says that it could be decided in a few days or hours, that is, whether the prosecutor will be able to prove whether Saylor spent more time sleeping on a pillow in Washington or in Florida

Bitcoiners next? Of course, the prosecutor will demand that all members of the forum be identified and that they be arrested and delivered to a secret location where they will be tried for anything they can think of. However, I hear that our savior Mr. Mars is building a big spaceship that will save everyone who accepts the woof-woof coin as the official currency on Mars 🚀

I've already seen a few Twitter threads talking and connecting the dots to BTC so quickly after the news is released. The story is so easy to spin, I'd rather ignore them or just use it as a data for my trades. If it has no effect then I'd just forget it, if it does, even if the reasoning is ridiculous, there's no harm with acting accordingly. Not the first time the market will act so emotionally and irrationally, and won't be the last either.

If the attack on people (no matter who they are) is an attack on Bitcoin and affects it, then it will be a central currency.
I don't know what the strange link is between Tornado Cash and Saylor, but any attempt to link them is a media propaganda to attract more views and sell ads.

I'm not fully aware of all the particulars of this case, but if it's simply moving from one state to another before the 183 days expire, then it is not really tax evasion but simply a case of tax avoidance which is completely legal.

But is there any billionaire who religiously pays his/her tax dues?

Anyway, the case is against Michael Saylor and MicroStrategy and not because they have Bitcoin or they are supporters of Bitcoin but because they allegedly failed to pay the right amount of taxes. So it's not about Bitcoin, at least as far as it appears in the open. Whether or not there are Bitcoin-related ulterior motives, we can only guess.

If the report is true that he was intentionally invading tax, then that action is really immoral. Its quit disheartning to see these high-earning CEO still want to cheat the state of revenue that would be used to improve the lives of the people. I am sure the that the income tax of employees of MicroStrategy are withdrawn regularly from their wages. The law has no respect for anybody and his connection to Bitcoin should not be used as the reason for the attack if he is guilty. If he is innocent, he has nothing to fear, but he is not let him face the punishment. My only reservation is that his actions might just give all these anti-Bitcoin forces another opportunity to link Bitcoin with tax invaders.

I don't think so, its was more on attack on him as tax evader citizen and not on him being a bitcoin enthusiast. And if you look at the case, it stretch far back before he gets involved himself into BTC.

It all started when a whistle blower started to file a case against him, because he is bragging that he didn't have to pay tax that way because his residence is in Florida where in fact he lives in the DC are for years before his bitcoin investment.

I don't look at it that way. If he hasn't paid his taxes and is finding ways how to avoid that, it matters very little if he owns bitcoin or not. We can think what we want about taxes, but it's a law like any other and has to be respected. If not, be willing to face the sanctions.

We can discuss whether or not he came under scrutiny because of his company's appreciation of the technology and maybe some other folks who are doing the same aren't being investigated, but tax evasion has always been a serious thing, not just in the US.   

You equally have a point here, because this issue is relatively a tax related issue and has nothing to do with Bitcoin, because as a citizen, everybody could own Bitcoin, but it is a must to pay your tax when due, as that's the way government generate funds to provide basic amenities.  So the best decision will be for Saylor to equally avoid moving to different states every few months to evade income tax, or equally just pays his tax when due and if he still gets sued, then we will know it's equally Bitcoin related

From what I've read (eg. on Financial Times) MicroStrategy is also considered involved, for helping/covering Saylor's actions.
See: https://www.ft.com/content/b356290d-a9c2-4ed2-8852-7f2d0c080f1c

This is towards Saylor himself though, not necessarily at MicroStrategy if I understand correctly.

But I could definitely see the normies affiliating Saylor doing fraudulent things(if actually proven) to Bitcoin being used for fraud even if it's the case that bitcoin wasn't even used by him. It's the fudsters wet dream.

I think that I've said it somewhere else too: imho it's not (yet!) an attack to bitcoin, but it can be used for attacks against bitcoin and also to bring back into actuality the "bitcoin is illicit money" narrative.

An attack on Bitcoin? Don't make me laugh.

If one of these days there's an attack on Bitcoin you'll know what it is.

If mining is banned in the US and other countries, as it happened in China, you will know what an attack on Bitcoin is.

If legislation is passed to make all Bitcoin transactions KYC, you will know what a Bitcoin attack is.

These measures and others that would be a real attack on bitcoin, would not be 100% effective, because no matter how much they are banned there will always be miners and P2P transactions, but if those two things happen in a short period of time you would really know what is an attack on bitcoin.


This.

Almost anything that very mildly affects Bitcoin is an attack on Bitcoin, apparently. You usually see it from people who aren't that confident and is insecure with their BTC investment.

Not a attack on bitcoin I would say because he has been charged with the income tax evasion and you will find these type of allegation against company people preety common as there are many legal compliance that needs to be fulfilled and he is facing that only.If the company put some charges like investing funds into btc was not good and company position got disturbed then it would be btc related but what you have mentioned is not.

I’d say it’s a warning shot. There are reports they also have been investigating CZ from Binance. They’re giving us a little sneak peak of what Joe Biden hired the 87,000 IRS agents to do. They’re training the stormtroopers as we speak.

Highly doubt it, can't see him being sued because of Bitcoin.  Is it possible he opened himself to more scrutiny because of Bitcoin- perhaps; however, the suit isn't about Bitcoin but rather taxes not paid due to attempting to cheat residency.

I just read this as well, all the news is posted by Racine on his Twitter and Saylor has yet to have any comment on the matter. But I don't see they are targeting bitcoin, if the news is true it will affect MicroStrategy more than bitcoin, Saylor is also just a bitcoin fan and bitcoin holder is not someone who can control bitcoin or impact bitcoin. This is Saylor's personal story and it has nothing to do with bitcoin.

Saylor's link to bitcoin is a pretty weak one, he has a company that is not even a bitcoin company, he also just owns some bitcoins. What you explained is not even bitcoin related but a tax evasion related issue which is not about taxes related to bitcoin either!
How can this even begin to be about an attack to BTC?!

Not impossible, but meh that's too far of a stretch imo. It's not even the first time[1] that the authorities pursued him for other reasons.

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[1] https://www.sec.gov/news/press/2000-186.txt

The attorney general of the District of Columbia (DC) Karl Racine believed Saylor was moving to different states every few months to evade income tax. 183 days living in a state will be subjected to paying tax but moving to somewhere before the required days as a resident makes him clear. Saylor lives in a Washington penthouse while actually a resident of Florida and sometimes moves to Virginia. I'm however not very sure of this info as I was just reading the news from crypto news sites.

In some comments I've read it's an attack on Bitcoin. They first sanctioned Tornado Cash and accounts are to be frozen, now they start with the biggest crypto personality Micheal Saylor. What are your comments about it, are Bitcoiners next?