Topic: Is the irreversibility of Bitcoin transactions a downside for an average person? (Read 572 times)

By "cash", I think he meant paper money transactions. If that is the case, then yes, you can't reverse cash transactions. Only if that "cash" is stored in a bank account, and sent to another person from there. That's because the "cash" is essentially "digitized", allowing a middleman to easily reverse the transaction if something goes wrong. Same goes with credit cards.

But with Bitcoin, it's another story. It's more akin to cash, because transactions are completely irreversible. The only way to "reverse" a transaction would be for miners to reach a consensus and rollback the Blockchain. And that's practically impossible to achieve. Therefore, people should be more responsible when using Bitcoin to avoid getting scammed or sending coins by mistake. As long as BTC stays decentralized forever, there should be nothing to worry about.

I can definitely see why many people may not like this, but there is not really any other option, the balance you see in your bank account and that you think as yours can be easily confiscated in a matter of seconds and disappear without you having too much of a recourse to object this decision, and while having irreversible transactions has its cons, it has the massive advantage that whatever coins you have in your wallet are yours and no one can take them away from you, and as a customer I am willing to take those drawbacks in order to have the certainty that my money is really mine.

As a long time miner here are 4 'truths'


1) eBay is great if you are buying gear.
2) and eBay sucks if you are selling gear.
3) btc is great if you are selling gear.
4) btc sucks if you are buying gear.

So the irreversibility of BTC makes it very useful for number

 3) selling gear.

Totally agree with this point on which it is really that true that making some cashbacks or retrieval couldnt really be done be someone personally not unless they would really be making out such request or something
do talks to that receiver on giving those funds back but if you dont do such thing then there's no way that you could really be able to get it back. Irreversibility on what makes Bitcoin do really get that popular in the sense that once those funds being sent out then there's no way that it could really be able to retrieve or modify it out. We've seen into those banking sectors or centralized coins which
transactions could be locked up and those funds could really be that controlled on which it do really shows about centralization stuffs on which possibility of reverse transactions or
holding up a certain account would really be that possible.

The problem with transactions that could be reversible is that who has the power to do that?
Who is in charge of deciding what will be reversible and what's not? In that case it makes things centralized and that's what I am against, I do not want anything that would be centralized and should be avoided at all costs.

I get that it is not simple but it could not be any harder on the long run neither, could be something that would change the bitcoin world from the bottom. Even if we make it decentralized and only the people who are part of it could make it reversible, that would be used to convince and fool people, send the money, then reverse it.

We have seen this a million times at paypal, people who does chargebacks even after getting the product, and a lot of companies ended up being in bankrupt zone because of those chargebacks and stopped using paypal all together because of it as well. That is an important part of the deal and bitcoin should avoid it.

You pay subscriptions in cash? Am I missing something here? I always loved cash, since I exactly knew how much money I have with me and how much I'm spending.
Also, don't give them your card. Pay subscriptions from your bank account. I usually look for sales where you can buy a whole year for 50% off and I pay that straight from my bank account, which doesn't leave them any options to charge me later. When my subscription finishes I'll simply lose access to the service.

There's no such thing as average person. My father was illiterate when it comes to online payments. My friend pays using a phone app every day. Where's the average between them?
There's a large group of people who don't use online payments at all, so for them irreversible transactions are normal.

But then, is there irreversiblility of cash transactions? For what I know, cash transactions can be reversed. If I made a payment to a wrong person, it will be traced and because it is a centralized system where you’re not just the only owner of your account, the money can be duely reversed from your account with or without your knowledge or permission. Hence, it is reversible and very much unlike Bitcoin.

We cannot claim 100% perfect bitcoin without any defect. Irreversibility will sometimes cause difficulties and disadvantages in some situations and for some people, but for bitcoin to be decentralized and secure, it is necessary. Just like many people complain about bitcoin being slow, transaction processing takes longer than other blockchains, but in return, bitcoin transactions are completely secure and decentralized, unlike other fast blockchains, cheap but concentrated. Therefore, anyone using bitcoin needs to have basic knowledge to avoid errors during use.

The idea was to use Bitcoin as digital cash. Not as a credit/debit card whose transactions can be easily reversed at will. In BTC, any transaction with more than 6 confirmations is considered irreversible. There needs to be a consensus of a 51% majority to successfully rollback the chain. Unless the person you've sent the BTC by mistake does the courtesy of returning your coins, don't expect to get lucky anytime soon.

It's always important to do your own due diligence before sending money to an unknown person. Bitcoin wouldn't be decentralized if there was an entity behind transaction dispute/resolution. For that, we have PayPal and/or traditional debit/credit cards. I'm sure people will learn a valuable lesson once they find out that no one is responsible for lost/stolen BTC (or coins sent by mistake). Just buy, "hodl", and forget about the rest.

I can see this irreversibility of bitcoin transaction as being the best option to deal away with people's imperfections when it comes to dealing with financial digital currency, since bitcoin is protocols on the block are immutable it pays for the transa to be a one way forward to avoid any unnecessary demands and request, considering that bitcoin is a decentralized digital network and uses a p2p network to perform it's transactions.

Once the terms and conditions are fulfilled by the set network protocols, it accept and process every transactions without reversals ones it's being confirmed, those that cannot abide by this consensus would rather be rejected by the network or they take their leave for non compliance, this is part of what every newbies must know before starting.

Scammers use charge-backs, and scammers also use transaction finality. Is there anything they would not use to make an extra $100? (You know, like a starving artist who can't feed himself from his living.)


I guess so, because the average subscription company makes it hella difficult to cancel your subscription, almost as if you are legally required to keep paying them a living wage.

I already posted that bitcoin transactions aren't irreversible and still everyone missed it, I hope you won't miss this again.
You can cancel bitcoin transactions, yes, that's possible if you use the latest version of Electrum. You can cancel bitcoin transaction before it gets confirmed and that's done by double-spending it, electrum has that option. So yes, you can reverse them. By the way, exchanges don't offer you that option and you are very limited to features when you use them but you should be using non-custodial wallets instead of them.

    
Is the irreversibility of a cash transactions a downside for an average person?

Apologies if somebody has already posted this.

I have often given this a hard thought, hence why I try to triple check before sending out a transaction payment. The decentralized nature of Bitcoin makes irreversibility difficult but with an escrow account used for large asset of BTC, I think reversibility is possible if one party fails to fulfil the terms of transaction.

For normal traders, it would be hard to get hold of the block of transaction and reverse it, but if it were a fiat bank, the possibility is certain.

In transactions, both payments and purchases cannot be canceled once they have been made and no one can block them. So, to reduce errors, enter the Bitcoin address and amount correctly. This means that the irreversible nature of Bitcoin transactions does give users greater control over their funds, but also responsibility for the mistakes they make. Bitcoin is the way to go. To use Bitcoin, however, we have to know a few things about it first

For some people, it might seem like a good idea if Bitcoin transactions could be reversed without needing the recipient's approval... but I believe that such a feature would not have brought Bitcoin to where it is today. I consider irreversibility to be a fair characteristic of Bitcoin, where a sender needs to be cautious when handling their Bitcoin. We shouldn't send Bitcoin when we are not paying attention and being careful, as it could have serious consequences.

I know that most people in the world really like money... however, Im not sure how many people would want to engage in dishonest practices by taking advantage of the imperfect nature of a product or transaction tool. The truth is, there are still good hearted people who are willing to return their BTC to the original sender because the recipient may not deserve the BTC they received. this means that there are people who appreciate the irreversibility feature, and there are those who do not.

I'm one of the people who appreciate it because this feature is fair for everyone.

This irreversibility is a book for online goods and services seller as once they get paid by buyer, the buyer cannot charge back. On other payment mediums like PayPal, there is always a chance of charge back which leads to considerable loss for the seller. If we see felm the point of buyer, he might not be happy with this medium as in some cases seller can also cheat.

I believe reversible and irreversible type of payment has its strength and weakness.  While centralized services that allows payment to be reversed and favors the buyers but create unfavorable environment to seller, irreversible payment also has its flaw when the seller intend to scam its buyer.

If spotting scammers are too easy then client should have easily detected scam offers and can easily avoid them but we have seen many people getting scammed even though they are very careful with  their dealings.

I remember one of bitcoin's innovations and that was Dispute mediation. The service allows third parties to approve or reject a transaction in the event of a dispute as explained in its description - so this may be just what you need.

Source: https://bitcoin.org/en/innovation#mediation


OP – there will be pros and cons. Some people need these features developed - while most others don't want them. I don't really need it - but I'm sure others might. This may be subjective - but ideas like these have their uses too.

Not only with Bitcoin but also with fiat transactions. Reversal of payments would be a bad thing and is prone to abuse from bad people unless there will be ‘something’ to regulate and check each transaction’s legitimacy which is quite of an impossible thing. Even with fiat digital payment, reversal of payments are not absolute. In some instances perhaps with active accounts receiving mistakenly sent amount, they could easily transfer it or withdraw it. I have experienced reversing a transaction before but that is only because the account where I’ve sent it is inactive; can’t imagine if it is. And with Bitcoin wherein transactions are anonymous, I think it would be harder for such function to imply.

The main problem, if Bitcoin was reversible would be when to be reversible and when to be irreversible.
If someone pays for goods and after receiving the goods reverses the payment? What happens then? How do we know when the person makes an honest mistake and needs to reverse the transaction or when it's a fraudulent activity?
Even with the traditional banking system that is centralized and controlled by third parties, you can't reverse a transaction. If you paid money into the wrong account or overpay for instance then the goodwill of the beneficiary will determine what happens next.

I would have loved for Bitcoin transactions to be reversible if it were possible, but there will be too much inconsistency and this can be a very big problem for it.

If Bitcoin were reversible, it’ll mean that there is a middle man involved who decides the status of the transaction. But we don’t want that. People want to know that when they receive or send their Bitcoin, it’s gone and no one has the power to make any changes. There’s a feeling of security that it gives especially when you send money very often. So, if you sent a large amount of money in Bitcoin, you can for sure go to sleep with peace of mind. We just need to be careful when carrying out transactions. If we put up a poll to see how many people have lost their crypto just because they sent it to the wrong address, it won’t be a lot compared to those who have never made the mistake.

good idea for a topic. many people do not need btc to send it. They may need it for other reasons.

If I am a seller its good for me as no whole can try to f me by lying.

If I am a buyer it may not be very valuable at all..

Frankly I don't see btc as an ideal currency I see it more as a long term investment or as escape money.

As escape money the irreversible aspect is priceless.

Such things, huh? Bitcoin was created as a digital cash system without third-parties. It is completely normal to have irreversible transactions. Otherwise, BTC would look more like a bank account. I know there are cases when one would like a refund after being deceived by a scammer, but there's nothing we can do about it. Especially if we're using non-custodial wallets to perform transactions on the Blockchain. If it was a centralized exchange or wallet provider, things would've been different. You'd have the ability to get your money back because there's a middleman behind everything.

If you don't want to get robbed, don't send BTC without doing due diligence. This way, you will avoid many headaches in the long run. Take Bitcoin's irreversibility as a feature, not a bug. This is what keeps it decentralized, after all. For refunds, Fiat currencies are the way to go. Just spend wisely and there should be nothing to worry about.

thats a senders problem not a payment system problem

if your willing to hand a suitcase of cash to a complete stranger.. check your mental health
if you dont know enough about the receiver to file a dispute/slap them with rotten fish if they do you wrong.. accept the risk you put on yourself. and be more cautious.

in real life if a stranger called you up and asked you to post $10k in paper-money cash, to a unregistered/unnamed po box where without collateral or identity proof they said they would make you rich in x months.. 99% of people would laugh and hang up the phone after calling them a scammer.. dont be the 1%

for other situations of genuine trust in privacy advocating traders. there are features like multisig and locks where funds cannot be moved unless conditions are met,
those that want some risk mitigation can use these features or use financial services like escrows/ registered trusted custodians/middlemen who act as middlemen for you to have a safeguard..
much like the dollar. banks act as middlemen/custodians and you can request a bank for the refund.. but you cant request the suitcase of dollar bank notes to refund itself, you ask a middleman service

It can be confusing why some consider a certain feature a downside when, in fact, it can be an advantage. In the case of payment systems, those who require reversibility can still use PayPal, which offers that option. However, some sellers or receivers prefer the irreversible transaction of Bitcoin because fraudulent buyers tend to use reversible payment methods like PayPal. This is why PayPal has implemented new requirements for this process, which is no longer as simple as just one click, to minimize fraudulent transactions in their system.

We can't expect all people to double-check their transactions especially for those who are in a hurry.
This is why for people who are not yet crypto users, they are hesitant to touch this market.
They are worried that they may get it wrong and would waste their funds for nothing.
But even crypto users can make a mistake if they are careless with what they are doing.
Double-check or triple-check what you are doing, and check the network if you are in the right one.

This doesn't mean that there's an equal proportion between senders and receivers. Most people have their salary as the main source of income, and they get it typically once per month. Most of their transactions are sending - they are paying for goods and services. Meanwhile merchants are receivers, they receive thousands upon thousands of transactions per month, and in comparison send only a little.

Making it reversible is much complicated rather than simply double checking if everything is correct before making a transaction.

Even for an average person, that wouldn't be hard enough to do such simple thing to make their transaction safe. It's not that bitcoin's transaction being irreversible is a downside, the problem here is that some people are not concerned about their transaction might gone wrong because of a very simple mistake, they just copy and paste the address then that's it. That's why it's too late before they realized they made a mistake at their end.

You also have highlighted the reason why this may not be possible because p2p network is designed to work that way, anyone that cannot completely comply to the bitcoin network protocols may finds another alternative means, this also indicates that an average person should bot have the mindset right from the start that if the bitcoin transaction are going to be possible on reversal, that's why the exchanges perform the escrow service because they are trusted, and when you send money to your own wallet, you cannot afford making mistake.

Without a question, the eBay/Paypal system is the worst example of what can happen when a centralized system isnt working right. Because you pointed out problems with the way things are built that leave sellers open to being ripped off, switching to decentralized currencies like Bitcoin is not only a good idea, its necessary. With Bitcoin, deals are direct and cant be changed. This gets rid of middlemen and reduces fraud. Everyone is responsible for being alert, which builds a sense of independence and duty.

Also, it might be hard to learn how to spot scams and keep your assets safe, but it is an extremely important skill in our increasingly digital economy. You make the case for a financial rebirth even stronger by saying that we need to adapt to this paradigm shift and use cryptographic currencies. We need to get rid of old, centralized methods and replace them with safe, decentralized ones like Bitcoin.

I like irreversibility because it confirms that once I receive money it's mine and no one can take it away unlike bank and paypal's chargebacks (I have been there).


Stick to trusted merchants, so they refund you if their product is not upto the mark.


I don't get the statement, every sender implies reciever on the other end.

In the end, I like choice. So you have the choice to use your fiat that constantly loses value over time, and basically controlled by someone else looking over your shoulder for every trabsaction.
Or, you have the choice to use Bitcoin and put on your big boy pants when you spend it.

It's up to you. Nobody's got a gun to your head forcing you to use Bitcoin.

In the past, you were forced to use the censorship surveillance money. You had no choice. Now you do.

Remember ebay/Paypal?

They basically had a system which sided with the buyers generally. It got to the point where many people stopped selling on eBay altogether because there were too many claims opened against sellers and the transactions were easily reversed and the seller was stuck with no product and no money.

This is a bad centralised system where it doesn't work in general. Hence payments like bitcoin are better because if people can trust one another then it can work as a exchange. Its easier to learn how to spot scams and protect yourself to not get your crypto stolen so you don't have to reverse it rather than have not and have to deal with transactions which can get reversed.

Here is what you have to understand about money. Money is nothing more than a means of exchange.

You have a chicken, and I got a slab of bacon. I trade my bacon for your chicken. This is barter. The next step up is to use something we all agree has a value. Because if you are Jewish or Muslim, my bacon has no value to you. I can't buy your chicken with my bacon.

So money is the next step up. As long as everyone agrees it has a value, it can be used as a means of exchange. It can be money if we all agree it has a value.

Now, when I trade my bacon for your chicken, I can't turn around a week later and decide I want my bacon back. I can't reverse one side of the transaction just because I found out the chicken has stinky poop, or it might be sick, or something.

So if I trade my silver coins or my bitcoin for your chicken, why should I be able to reverse my side of the transaction a week later?

The only way a reversible payment makes sense is if you make a plea of stupidity. That you are so stupid with your money, that you need someone else to control your transactions and reverse them any time you get too stupid.

Until 40 years ago, almost everyone paid with cash, irreversible payment, since the dawn of times.

It's only in recent human history that this ridiculous notion of consumer protection emerged.

Consumer protection and reversible transactions are the arguments the banks make: trust us with your money. "We hold and control your money for you and we can reverse or block some transactions from ever occuring. And of course, we promise we will never abuse this power." Right?

When you buy a carpet for your house, the carpet store can't come in and take their carpet back a week later. So why should you be able to take your money back? Are you really that dumb, you can't be trusted to buy your own carpet like a grown up?

This idea of reversible payments stems from socialism. The idea that the merchant us evil and bent on robbing you of your money while you are just the innocent and pure consumer who needs to be protected against the evil merchant.

You need to consider that there is a HUGE cost and potential for abuse when we make it possible for you to buy my bacon and take your payment back a week later.

My experience is pretty similar, and I think most users of banks and payment apps never have to reverse a transaction in their life, but the feeling of safety that comes from knowing that it could theoretically be done could be important to some people, and in that light they could view Bitcoin more negatively if they know that their mistake is nearly impossible to fix.

That’s why this isn’t fiat and even in a fiat operated banking system, you don’t just go about reversing money sent to an account without due processes of consultation of the recipient and possibly, having the recipient’s permission to proceed with the reversal.
Reversal systems are possible in a centralized system but, Bitcoin isn’t centralized is it. Surely it’s decentralized and with no one at the apex of these directives on the fate of transactions, it’s always going to be forward ever.

I see it to be a plausible system to the operation and as such, it calls for more carefulness in initiating a transaction on the part of the sender, knowing that, it ain’t reversible. It also gives recipient a sense of comfort that, you can’t have a deal retracted once concluded without consent.

I personally do not see irreversiblity as an issue in bitcoin ecosystem. Unless an ecosystem is centralised, this is always going to be the case. But it might be an issue for an average Joe who are new to this domain. Also it gives rise to the hackers as there's no way for the funds to get seized unless they are caught by the police or enforcement agencies.

Rather I see this as a feature that gives confidence especially to the merchants. There's no denying that it has downside as well but that's how the world is. Every system has a downside and a positive side. No system is fair.

Bitcoin being irreversible is good for merchants.  Since buyer cannot scam the merchants through cash charge back method but if the merchant plan to scam the buyer, then there is no way the buyer can get his Bitcoin after he paid for the item.

This is the downside of non-reversible transaction. The setup is more on the advantage of a merchant and a disadvantage of the buyer if some there is an issue with the bought product.

That makes one of us. Well if that becomes reversible then it loses its integrity. It means a block can be edited at any given time. It changes the way miners confirm the transactions that are included in the nodes. Basically, we are moving towards chaos if only a single change like "reversibility" was supposed to be added to the blockchain.

This leaves no difference between how a banking account operates and how a wallet would work. With the addition of such a feature we are also calling for hackers world wide to hack our wallets just like that. They will have loop holes, back doors to brute-force a transaction and do fake transactions. I think what we have is just better and original. Try changing anything in that and we can forget Bitcoin will exist anymore with proper sustainability.

I consider myself an average person. I'm fairly careful and attentive, but not extra careful, and my understanding of financial operations is generally pretty basic. I've only had to reverse a transaction once on my life, and that was because of a bug when I was paying with card in a supermarket in a foreign country, when the first transaction seemingly didn't go through, and then I was charged the same amount of money twice. Such a bug would not have occurred with blockchain, so it's an exception.

In general, I don't think much of reversibility of financial transactions and don't need this feature. It's not easy to do anyway, as one needs to convince the bank that there was a mistake. As for crypto transactions, there are indeed some nice stories of mistakes getting resolved.
To me, BTC irreversibility is neutral: I don't benefit from it, but I'm okay with it.

I think based on the carefulness in the transaction procedures, I learned from my thread in Technical Discussions board from @Apogio that there's a feature that allows you to uniquely identify a user on decentralized wallets and it is called Paynyms.
What it does is this: It derives and unique code from your wallet seed phases that is unique to you. If you wish to send to a reciever, you just need to input the person's ID and the wallet generates a different address that the receiver can spend from. its very easy and user friendly as you just need to follow the person and upon one confirmation, you can now send the person funds as many times as you want. This feature is present on Sparrow and samurai wallets and it mitigates mistakes on sending to the wrong address. The wallet creates a new address for the receiver spend from every time and your funds is sent securely and received by the intended user.

For more information please visit https://bitcoiner.guide/paynym/ and https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0047

In a centralized platform can be possible this can of feature for have a reverse transaction, one of the platforms we are using now offers this kind of feature but of course there's another charge for it, this kind of feature is quite risky to the people who are using their own wallets could be prone to scams. Its just a small portion of the percentage making wrong sending of addresses is human error, not on the system it is so they do not need to adjust to those possible mistakes.

With physical money you will likely be able to talk with the receiver, but with digital money you might accidentally send it to someone you don't know, or the receiver might be unresponsive for some reason.


The average user receives their coins from a "reliable" source - an exchange, their employer, etc. Those are not likely to chargeback if they could.

Bitcoin can be used on services or networks that provide a refund feature, where you can deposit your money into a payment card that accepts Bitcoin and use the Visa or MasterCard network to make settlements and return funds, or use the Bitcoin network, in which transactions are final and cannot be reversed. So, in the case of Bitcoin, you have several options and you can Choose the most suitable one according to your need.

Senders often want to be able to undo a transaction if something goes wrong, but receivers often want to be sure that the transaction cant be undone to protect themselves against bogus chargebacks. Since most people often put on the sender's hat, it does make you think about why people would praise Bitcoin's irreversible transfers.

But one has to wonder if this praised inability to be undone doesnt also help senders feel better about themselves. By getting rid of the chance of chargebacks, businesses might be able to lower their prices, which would save customers money. The question here is whether the consumer's faith in possible price cuts is greater than the perceived hassle of deals that cant be undone.

Even in centralized payment systems that tx reversal is possible, it is not so easy to do, you have to report to the centralized body with proof of a mistake or scam, and this process can take a long time without it being resolved, so it isn't as if you the sender has the power to just send tx's and reverse them yourself.

In the BTC network there is no central authority nor a single point of failure, tx's can only be reversed if a malicious miner controls 51% of the network's hashrate and the chances of it happening is slim to none. BTC is decentralized and it is safe because tx's cannot be reversed once it has be confirmed, it is surely not a downside and people should double check their tx before broadcasting it to the network.

For me, the irreversibility in bitcoin transactions is always one of the features that makes bitcoin transaction highly secure, no matter which way we try to look at it. I tell for sure that there would have been more scams, much more than any of us can or would have imagined if it was actually possible to reverse a bitcoin transaction after hitting the send button.

And even come to think of this, like sending or transferring fiat money to other people in the region where we live, ones you send money to someone and the transaction reports comes back as successful, that transaction cannot be reversed expect if network from the receiving bank is so bad that the transaction has to bounce back. and if for example, you mistakenly sent money to a wrong account, and you want the transaction reversed, you have to visit the bank you made the transfer from, and they may ask you to get a court order which you must submit back to them, without it, your money is probably gone, except the person that received the money is a good Samaritan and decides to return the money to the account it came from.

This is also somewhat similar to a bitcoin transaction, i don't see any way being able to reverse a bitcoin transaction would have been something to celebrate.

Bitcoin should teach us responsibility and knowing that this kind of thing is going to happen, shouldn't we be prepared that this will happen to us? Plus, if we were to remove or even make a lot of exceptions when this kind of thing happen then it will snowball into more and more exceptions that will end up bitcoin network being known to easily cave to pressure from people. Irreversible transactions also teaches us to be responsible on how we do our transactions which I think is a better thing to have more than people exploiting the implementation of reversible transactions.

Both of them are possible together and I don't understand what's the problem? You can reverse transaction on Electrum by using Cancel Transaction option. Electrum uses Replace By Fee option and cancels transaction by double-spending its inputs back to your wallet with an increased fee than you had on original TX. You can use this option before your transaction gets confirmed, when it gets confirmed, it's gone permanently. So, if you made a mistake, you have some minutes to fix it, that's a perfect possibility!

If somebody wants reversible transactions, he(or she) can use the fiat payments processors like PayPal and Skrill. The people have choice, which is great.
Bitcoin/crypto transactions should remain irreversible, because there won't be any centralized entity, that decides which payment reversal is a scam attempt and which one is simply a wrong transaction. I agree that "the average Joe" might have some difficulties with irreversible crypto transactions and maybe the irreversible transactions are one of the reasons why crypto isn't mass adopted, but there's no way around this.
If you want refunds, choose fiat, if you don't want refunds, just use crypto.

I personally support the irreversibility of Bitcoin, because it adds trust to a system that should in theory be better than it's competitors. Yes, it is bad when you are on the sender side and when you made a mistake with the transactions, but when you are the receiver and the sender cannot reverse a transaction... then it is a added bonus.

In any way..... we signed up for this, because we wanted financial freedom and also because we want zero third parties being able to reverse transactions... so we should accept the consequences and just be responsible. 

For the average user who does not have sufficient knowledge about the Bitcoin network and the security and protection factors, yes, the possibility of reversing Bitcoin transactions is a negative aspect, because he may not realize that he will be the first victim if there is a possibility of reversing a Bitcoin transaction.

This problem appears especially during times of congestion, as many inexperienced users want to know the required fees or users who do not want to pay more fees to speed up their transactions. When the transaction is delayed due to network congestion, the average user begins to get upset and search for solutions to restart the transaction.

I don't think it's a problem in general. If you are attracted to Bitcoin for what it is and its properties, such as limiting supply and decentralization you have to put up with the irreversibility of transactions, whether you like it or not. These are the rules of the game, and seeing that Bitcoin is increasingly trending more as an investment vehicle than as a P2P currency I don't see the problem. Now when spot ETFs start to be approved people who want to invest and escape irreversibility will buy Bitcoin ETFs through their bank or broker, and when they want to spend they will first sell the ETF (or part of it) and spend with their card or CBDC afterwards.

If we look at it, bitcoin itself according to satoshi us primarily a means of payment and then the other use of it is secondary. As a payment mechanism I go with the idea of it not been irreversible, because merchants will suffer more should the irreversibility not been there, than a random person that makes a costly mistake of sending to an address which is wrong. Reversing an already established transaction would make many merchants to be wary of using bitcoin for their payment purpose and will reduce its adoption and transparency. But If you’re the one sending and you it’s irreversible you would be extra cautious to make a mistake and should it happen then you take your cross which is fair enough.

The use of QR codes can be used by merchants ant it’s likes to avoid occasional errors by its customers from sending into wrong addresses. This way everything is fair enough for everyone. So for an average person the first security is for him not to get scam and this outweighs the risk of him making mistake which the irreversibility solves

what the average person need is fiat and a platform serving as escrow. we won't worry about it after all the CBDC is coming.  the average person are not forced to using BTC for its transactions, merchants will always prefer the fiat even if they accept BTC.

the average person i think will not be convinced to used BTC anyway, unless they also accept this irreveribility as a positive feature.

To be frank about it, Bitcoin's irreversibility  can be not working for anyone who is not so careful when transacting with the platform he is used to. One must triple check the address to avoid any mistake because we know the bad consequences of taking chances...no return no exchange so one must make sure before hitting the button SEND. This is something that one must be educated with when dealing with Bitcoin or most cryptos for that matter...of course it would be a little different if you are transacting with people you know because you can just contact them in case of a mistake, otherwise this is not a child toy one can just play with.

There are pros and cons for both.

Sure it would be great if your funds were stolen or you sent to the wrong address to reverse them since those are accidental and transactions you didn’t approve.

The issue is that if you allow transaction to be reversed then so will scams happen. People will buy stuff, pay with bitcoin and then try to reverse it, which is obviously not good.

In my opinion I think the way it is now is the perfect method since you know once it’s confirmed it’s yours forever and you don’t need to worry about it reversing.

I think you need to ask yourself too: how often you ask a refund when you sent money by mistake, to scammer etc?

I never make any mistake, but I ever send to a scammer few times, since the amount is small I'm not asking for a refund because the process is complicated and no guarantee I will get back my money.

Since I've deal with that and accept it as a lesson, I don't think irreversibility is the main problem for an average person, transaction fee is still the main problem.

I think everyone has already adopted a traditional way of sending transactions when they are about to send it, they will check if everything is right because that's the basic thing you need to know of using bitcoins as payment. We only have a few cases where some person sent it to the wrong address but they were not paying attention while they sending it. That's why every exchange has some warning every time you are about to send some transactions in order to avoid such problems to happen on their users.

There are upsides and downsides; but the upside heavily outweighs the downsides in my opinion. At the very least, having no chargebacks teaches people to not easily trust random people online and think twice when buying/paying for things.

Besides, you can still get chargebacks through escrows.

Irreversibility is generally neutral. The goodness or badness of this feature depends on a person's individual circumstances. To me, I don't think it's a downside. As a matter of fact, it's generally a good thing. Once a transaction is settled, I won't have to worry about it because what already happened can't be reversed.

But I can see how it is also a bad thing from the perspective of another. Erroneous transaction is just one reason. What I have in mind, however, is the giant yet still growing e-commerce industry. It's a common problem here in my country that the goods sold online aren't exactly the ones that are sent to the buyer. That a payment system is irreversible might make it all worse. Because it means transactions shall be processed manually and it will certainly take a lot of time.

From the perspective of somebody who regularly pays for services with BTC, I don't really think about irreversibility that much in the sense that it gives me benefits. I think the flexibility and lower fees are probably the main reason why I use BTC instead. On the other hand, due to the nature of irreversible transactions, I'd make sure that my transaction is right before I publish it to the network.

That being said, from somebody who wants better privacy and doesn't want to rely on fiat too much, I don't mind the irreversibility of the network. It is not such a big deal and at most gives a bit of a headache if my transaction is pending. Not to mention most merchants allow users to send a ticket if something goes wrong with their purchases. If that is the problem, I'd suggest they use other platforms instead of removing BTC irreversibility.

for centuries people used cash/coins. where it got physically handed over to a recipient and if you wanted it back you had to plead to the receiver with good reason

with digital bank accounts you still need to ask a bank.. *

no money has ever been independently retrievable without requesting a drawback/chargeback/clawback/refund from someone

*yes banks have got lazy and just accept any reason to clawback funds.. but thats banks problem

Yep, it's more likely when we are solving other problems, some part or feature will be sacrificed but if you take a look, it will not really matter, you can't solve decentralized and cutting the middleman if you reverse transactions.
So for me, I don't see irreversibility as a downside at all, it will be always a person's problem.

Reversibility, and irreversibility, both have their pros and cons. Bitcoin is irreversible and that's that, so if you're cool with that then you're cool with Bitcoin, but if you feel reversibility is absolutely crucial you're not gonna like Bitcoin.

Personally I've never needed a transaction reversed that I can think of, so the way Bitcoin does it is fine with me. And I'm pretty sure you can build a merchant system that takes irreversibility into account.

I would say for the average person it doesn't matter because how many people regularly or even rarely need a transaction reversed? I would imagine not many.

@OP, you really think people are actually using Bitcoin widespread in market places to buy stuff? Most of the transactions you see is to and from exchanges/casinos, the volume for ordinary users is very low.
The only way to "reverse" the transaction is to double spend or cancel before confirmation. For anything other than that, use paypal etc. Where there exist another type of scamming by chargebacks.

I think it's an interesting point of view.  My guess is they're coming from the bigger picture of how decentralized systems without a middleman are useful.  Since Bitcoin cuts out the middleman, theres no one to go ask for your money back - which also means you don't have to pay fees for chargeback protection like with credit cards and stuff.  Even if you don't get an advantage all the time, having a system that's predictable can be valuable in itself.  It simplifies everything when users know upfront that transactions cant be changed later and 

overall I'd say the pros of Bitcoin being irreversible are 1) no fees for chargebacks 2) fits with the decentralized model and 3) makes the system straightforward because you always know where you stand.  But I'm just speculating based on what I know about crypto and payments.  Definitely an interesting perspective from certain users.

It obviously can be a downside for some people just as well it's an upside to some. But that could be said about any tech. But why would that even matter?
It's not like we can, or should do anything about that feature, as permissionless & immutable transactions is one of the main reasons that makes the bitcoin valuable and is needed in the first place.

Ability to reverse transactions would make it highly centralized. In fact it wouldn't be bitcoin at all after that.

Judging based on my experience in my own country, they need fast transaction. Easy and convenient way of payment. Feeless transaction.

The digital payment system that heavily enforced here is that it’s a qr-based address where the payer just scan it to receive the address and the amounts need to be payed, enter a pin to confirm the transaction, and voila they receive the goods. While of course a payment system like that requires fee in one way or another, and in this case it is the payee who pays it or hiddenly included the bill to the payer.

Beside, that options is widely available across many merchants. I do not know the systemic fraud rate, but the most common fraud is happening beyond the reach of the systemic problem. For example, displayed a fraudulent qr or the cashier using their own qr, bypassing the store payment system.


There’s a saying that tells someone praises irreversibility, but hoping it would be non existent when themselves is the one who need to get their money back.

They want irreversibility because it makes their trades safer. Reverse is like chargeback that benefits scammers more than solid users. We can not make reversibility to benefit minority of users because of their carelessness. The majority are carefully with their transaction broadcast, double check and more so they don't actually need to have reversibility.

They praise irreversibility because is one of bitcoin's characteristic, if you're not ok with that it means that you are criticizing bitcoin and not everybody likes to do that. At the same time I don't see another choice, if we want bitcoin to be completely independent and decentralized no one should decide if and when reverse a transaction. Of course for the average person it could be a big problem and I know people who don't feel confortable with that and they prefer not to use bitcoin.

I think that the average user must be happy to know that once in his wallet, his BTC has no chance of disappearing because of a potentially reversible transaction. Nope?

Especially long term HODLers

So I saw this topic about succesfully returned accidental transaction and it provoked some thoughts.

Those that send money generally want to have an option to reverse the transaction if there's a mistake or if they didn't receive what they wanted. Those that receive money want transactions be irreversible to not get scammed by chargebacks.

In our world a lot more people are senders rather than receivers. An average person receives money once or typically a few times per month and then does dozens or hundreds of payments. And since they receive money from an employer, it's unlikely they will get scammed.

So why should the people who almost always send money praise Bitcoin's irreversibility if they personally don't directly benefit from it? Should they hope that merchants will lower the prices because they won't have to deal with chargebacks?


P. S. - this is not a topic about whether Bitcoin's irreversibility is objectively good or bad; it's about the perspective of average person today and what they need from their payment system in their life.