Topic: Is the society matured enough to handle privacy? (Read 623 times)

Is that entirely true?
That binance have got no fiat options and so, its unnecessary to go through all the KYC and for Binance, it's more about being or staying legit..

Yeah, KYC is very undesirable and should be very much avoided by those who care about there privacy  and see KYC for the menace it is. I seriously don't approve going through all that but, Binance have got fiat options though the P2P system. You get paid in your local currency or provided bank account details capable of holding base country currency. That's very much fiat.

Staying legit and not having customers is some shit move. Sadly, binance already do, there reputation wins them customers and the customers are so attached.

There are indeed times which we do really need to expose off our identity or personal information for the sake or benefit of being comfortable on various transactions which cant really be avoided on some point.

Its true that we do avoid KYC as much as we could but speaking with reality on traditional platforms and services that we do have physically then it couldnt be avoided for you not to comply with those things.

There are various options that we do have actually and its up to you whether you would really be complying or not basing on your preference.

It's quite understandable if you would like to share it with your local exchanges because that's where we turn our fiat in our bank account to crypto in the exchange or vice versa. That is required and I understand it. But, places like binance where you have zero connections to fiat still requires it because they want to be more legit.

There are so many nations that ask for it these days that they can't just let it be and ignore all of that. If they did that, and didn't ask for KYC from you, then all those nations would make Binance an illegal place and wouldn't let their citizens to use it, Binance needs as many customers at they could get to make a profit.

Public Ledgers
Blockchains are basically a form of public ledgers. To make it simple, ever since the cryptocurrency was established, all the transactions that were made are recorded on this public ledger. However, the identities of the owners of coins are safeguarded as the system ensures the privacy of owners with various cryptographic techniques.

Public ledger also takes care of the respective digital wallets calculating the expendable balance accurately. One can easily check and keep track of all the new transactions that take place ensuring that coins used for the transactions are currently owned by the sender.

But KYC information needs to be implemented and that made our privacy vulnerable so we are mature? I am of course because this is important to me that's why I only give my KYC to those who badly needed to provide.
like what i gave in my Local wallet to have transactions here and there, but in other platform? i prevent from giving this and that is my main objective .

Whether or not a society is matured enough to handle privacy depends on its development stage, just like different countries have different acceptance level towards Bitcoin.
Fiat won't disappear anytime soon, but the popularity of crypto is growing, that's for sure, and government will find more ways to monitor crypto transactions.

There is no doubt that privacy is necessary and required, but some people abuse privacy to carry out illegal activities on the Internet, but in my opinion, this should not push us to give up privacy because of these bad people who abuse the whole community by carrying out these illegal activities, as you said, the community Not yet mature to deal transparently with privacy and decentralization, but this should prompt us to think of new ways to take advantage of these new technologies while preserving the good and important advantages that we have obtained.

It would surely hurt but not enough on blocking nor getting rid of it completely since we know that it couldnt be technically possible thats why they do really intend out on touching up platforms which is
attached or related to it thats why it wont really be that possible that everything would really get blocked but there are actually coins which are really that private or completely anonymous.
It cant really be avoided that there are indeed people who do make use of this feature for neither good or bad intentions.

When it comes to privacy you can use bitcoin to an extent but it’s really better suited for true privacy coins such as Monero (and to a lesser extent Zcash). I have always maintained the position that it would be horrible for bitcoin to become a true privacy coin, not because I’m worried about what people will do with the private coins, but because of how governments will view it. They will assuredly ban it. Of course you can’t fully ban it but they can shut down the on and off ramps to a large extent (exchanges) and of course that would be very damaging.

Exactly , this is based on my own experience mate , I care nothing in the past about my funds until I lose one of my wallets because of my not caring on that.

Now i learn my lessons and knows how to handle security measures .

Lol everyone in crypto cares about their privacy its just that many don't really understand how it works and how this really meant to have.

Humans are trying in coping with the advancement in technological development since we don't have the whole world all developed while some region were still underdeveloped, but the means of handling privacy has been made efficient in such a way that the bitcoin decentralization places each as a determining factor to the handling of their privacy, in bitcoin, we have improvement proposals suitable for privacy which one can't do without while some will not mind with the consideration of their privacy.


It is obvious that many abuse this privilege but nevertheless we have to consider that everybody is not an abuser of privacy, this is what we could not benefit from the rule of governments and we were served with the opportunity in bitcoin/crypto in dealing with our financial lives.

Nothing new with Crypto being used for illegal means. ANYTHING can be used for illegal means, not just crypto. And I'm pretty sure no one's really able to answer you about society wanting it or not, the sample's just too big, and honestly, why does it even matter? It's not like there's a rule that says they have to use crypto and/or fiat, they can just choose one and live with it. Compromise with what they really want so to speak. Abuse of privacy? Since when did wanting privacy become an abuse? What's abuse is hiding under the guise of automating stuff to completely control and obtain the privacy of a person (and vice versa) imo.

Most of the time we just learn and see the importance of our privacy after experiencing bad as this never be on our minds at the start.

Well, the truth is that people really don't mind their privacy. And to hear people getting hacked, this was not surprising anymore, it was indeed a market view that we can't hide. For we don't change and we are still careless, and never mind the value of our privacy, we neither change as well. Hacking and scamming is still certain.

Casinos are not supposed to be anonymous. They are supposed to be a legal entity. A casino is to be legally registered. It is supposed to be operating within the regulations set by the government. Are casino owners anonymous? I don't think so. Casinos could actually be held accountable under the law. However, is there anybody who really pursued a case in court against a casino for stealing their money?

Privacy is actually both good and bad that is why there has to be a balance. Absolute privacy is not to be desired.

You see when you read all the occurrences when someone got hacked by doing the things they shouldn't really need, you will gonna learn to further secure your crypto assets but it all goes back to patiently reading the stories of those unfortunate people. When you go to the Beggirner section of this forum, you will see what I really mean because you will see every month an update on ways to prevent how to get hacked because hackers are updating their techniques to fool investors and scam their money.

the problem i see is that scammers are abusing privacy, i will give an example from casinos. there are bad people who are creating new casinos to steal people's money, because they know they are anonymous, they know that no one will report them because this is an anonymity market, so they have 100% guarantee that they can scam and will get away with no problems. this privacy issue is a very good thing, but it's a shame that many people are using it wrong

I don't really think we have matured enough to handle innovation, at least at the pace modern technology is moving. It seems human evolution has not been able to catch up with our technological innovations, so we see some discrepancies. So privacy will be abused wherever it can be abused, at least for the time being. I'd say that that's because we are unable to think of a future that is not Capitalism (thanks to Francis Fukuyama), and under modern capitalism, privacy is just an illusion.

If you are aware that it is impossible to ditch the fiat world altogether and enter the cryptocurrency space then you are in a fantasy world. The fact is investors does not care whether the space is 0centralized or decentralized as long as they are getting the necessary profit they are expecting .

When it comes to scams, it will continue to happen in the future and it is impossible to see a world without positive people.

This is simply the reality that we are going to face in the future, your average person still does not understand why something like bitcoin was created, they think of it as simply an investment but they never stop to think about why it does have any value? Why despite the fact that we have fiat currencies a single bitcoin is way more valuable than any other currency around the world? But sooner or later they will learn their lesson and once they do then they will oppose all of those measures, I just hope that by the time they decide to do so it is not too late already.

First of all, most of the economic crisis are occurring due to the inflation rate hike which is here only due to the presence of fiat money. In 1990s who knows what is internet connection? In 2000 who knows what is computer? In 2010 who knows how to use smartphone but now everyone is using it for that they didn't take any special classes so when it is there then people will get used to it.

Society has never been mature to maintain something as important as privacy and anonymity, only the fact of having accounts with facebook, instagram where real photos are recorded, you are no longer anonymous or private, now in these times it is even more so the reason why it does not exist and thanks to all that is that at some point as I had said in a bitcoin discussion thread that my calculation is that in less than 10 years there will be almost no privacy, for everything we realize that we must comply with a mandatory KYC, and it is something that will become harder each time and with the help of governments, regulations, among others.

I see that the problem is solved. Privacy is already becoming only a dream. Show me real-life examples where you think your privacy is safe. The only exception is in bitcoin, and then with the right handling. Everything else, if you use the Internet, and not necessarily, has long been deprived of privacy protection, unfortunately. And it's time to get used to it and put up with it.

yes, many people use fiat to invest in cryptocurrencies. Crypto is a digital innovation created as a substitute for fiat currency, besides being useful for making transactions, it also functions to generate profits for financial freedom. Although full of risks, the benefits provided are enormous. so everyone is happy to use crypto.

The third world nations are not matured enough for privacy. Even their fiat currencies they can't distribute it well to their citizens. The fiat currencies are handled by few people in the society. Crypto Currency was created to support the Fiat currency not to take over it. But when the youths discovered that crypto currency is much more better than the Fiat currency, they key into the new age technology system of transaction and the Governments see that the youths are not using the Fiat for transactions, they came up with different policies. And most youths used crypto Currencies to scam people so the privacy use of the currency has been abused. Scammers can deceive you and enter your private wallet and transfer everything you have.  Handling privacy can also boil than to the security atmosphere of the wallets. When we say maturity, it means different things.
1. Technological
2. Security
3. Doing the right thing
4. Trustworthy
5. Equal distribution of resources

When these things are found in any society then that society is matured enough to handle privacy but where those things are not found, even the privacy is in danger.

It's true, even now, Fiat is still the main choice and can be used as a benchmark for the community in carrying out their lives.
It will be very difficult for us to stop that because as long as the regulations are still ongoing and the government is their backing, fiat will always exist, regardless of whether there is crypto or not Fiat will still be fiat which will be needed forever.

You arent seeing the bigger picture or bigger view because into those people who got caught are just peanuts into those people who do make out some illicit activities in the shadows which until now they
still havent been caught yet nor even discovered due to anonymity of this market then we are much sure that there are people who do really play in the shadows.We cant really just able to see
them or being too obvious but sure they were there. Speaking of privacy then it could really be used into other aspects which does have its pros and cons and that would really
vary on someones own intent on things.

I get what you're trying to say, there are always people who tend to misuse opportunities like this. But so far the government has been able to capture those who were using cryptocurrency for illicit activities. Just like they busted the dark Web as of recently.

So, cryptocurrency can't really cover up people who are using it for the wrong purpose. in one way or the other the government will always be able to find out who those behind such activities are and capture them. And things might change in the future with the new rules that CEX would be forced to work with, and there wouldn’t be as much privacy.

with this regulatory issue, the future has become something that people will simply have to settle for saying goodbye to things like privacy and anonymity, KYC is here to stay, banks and governments won't want to play ignoring jokes that anyone is using regulated services without having done KYC. This is why I think the world is not ready for privacy

This is very wrong mate. Privacy is legal, learn to differentiate between doing illegal online things and trying to let your things out from the public. Just because I don't want chain analysis to experiment with how and when I spend my bitcoin doesn't make it a bad thing. There are many things you should do to keep your privacy on the check as a bitcoin holder, I talked about it on one of my threads: Privacy is not a crime, learn to do it yourself (DIY)

If your want to know the importance of privacy, learn how bitcoin node work behind the scene or try and run one yourself, you will see the beauty of been a privacy person.

Societies are as mature as the individuals. Take example of satoshi. He made bitcoin and this wonderful community all while staying anonymus. Just think of a tyrant who might collect funds anonymously and run away. Leaving investors ruined and damaged. Thus its not the power that is dangeous, but who wields it makes the difference.

The government is already doing that . they have their own wallet and their own digital currency, although this does not apply to every country in the world. And of course like you have said, regular people will always accept whatever the government give to them as long as it is easy for them to operate. There are lots of people who do not care about all these privacy stuff that most of us do care about.

As long as what they are being given is convenient enough for them , then they would go for it and wouldn’t mind anything about privacy or not. One of the countries that has their wallet and CBDC is China, the digital Yuan.

There are a lot of people that don't care about privacy. They don't even know are basics of privacy, they don't care about it.
For me, society is still not mature, and still lacks education when it comes to privacy especially day by day, technology evolves very fast and some people are left behind. The major problem now is privacy.
Especially now with Bitcoin, for sure most of people who are using Bitcoin starting to care about privacy because that is one of the feature of Bitcoin.

I think the problem is not maturity. Or better, maybe it is, but in my opinion, the problem is that internet made everything too easy and people are not willing to make any effort to educate themselves. Also, over time, the internet became a not so goo place to educate ourselves if we don't do some research on our own and simply go for the first things that comes up in our favourite search engine! There are tons of misinformation and adding to that, people became too lazy.

About privacy, well, we are living in what I call a transition time, meaning that we were thrown into a global big brother without us knowing understanding what we were getting into! These global companies like Google, Facebook, Reddit, Instagram and so many others, made us to embrace this huge data collection scheme and no one was prepared nor understood what was going on. By now, we see laws trying to protect our data but failing completely because those laws seems to be completely jammed and we are now almost being forced to hand over our data. We are now at an almost no-turning back point, because in the last 10 years or so, we already handed some much information that we won't be able to cancel it, remove it from the hands of those who are making billions and billions of profit with our data.

There are some movements, people, groups, etc that are trying, what they call to "de-google" ourselves, but it's not easy and not enough to stop this massive information sharing by third parties.
I'm not sure what will improve if we start using a smartphone that don't use Google products like OSs (Android), or iOS or Huawei OSs. They will always be collecting data no matter what. Same for our browsers in our laptops and desktops. Same goes for these crap called cookies and 3rd parties that we almost are forced to accept or we simply can't see the contents of a site!

This said, to stop this problem you either turn yourself into an animal inside a dense forest and use no electronic devices or you just can't escape!
There is, globally, alliances between countries for surveillance. Who never heard about 5 Eyes, Prism and others? NSA, CIA, FBI, Interpol and so many other state agencies that collect themselves tons of information, spy on us, etc, etc! This is an endless subject to discuss.

Obviously we have not matured beyond succumbing to the basic "instinct" of greed and corruption which is in all of humankind. It's just how we are. If anything, you can be 100% sure that people will abuse the trust of others if they can get away with it.

But if you think about it for a bit, you begin to realize that Privacy is called freedom. The freedom to be unbound and unwatched.

The cost of freedom is self-destructive behavior.

Sure, no society is perfect. It also needs national defense; the question is what's the sacrifices for it. The fact of the matter is that if you take a lot of portion from health care, education, allowances etc. to strengthen it, you're likely to make things worse.

My point is: If you put protection above your rights, you're soon going to lose both. You're not far from having your liberty curbed in the name of counter-terrorism that way.

Also, in lots of countries the police has to take permission to enter into houses. I don't know if that applies in the USA.

The government doesn't, the rich evade taxes, I know and I get the harm. But, let's assume they couldn't refuse to share their financial information. Let's say that whoever attempted would have their head taken. Now everyone's forced to tell the truth. The society is full of fairness, isn't it?

People should really realize and accept the fact that it wont really be possible or totally impossible as long government does exist then this wont really happen.Speaking with primitive societies then its

true which not all corners of the world are really that aware of its existence thats why traditional or the common fiat system would really still remain.
About privacy then expect that there would be people whom do really taking out some advantage when it comes to its anonymity which is already that anticipated or expected.

Crypto technology seems to be getting more and more powerful, in fact very many say it will replace fiat in the future. But if you look back, making crypto or bitcoin that can replace fiat in any transaction is very difficult to implement. Crypto technology is all over the world, but not everyone can use this technology. there are even primitive societies, they still live naturally.

Law enforcement and other government agencies need to break people's privacy in order to function. If citizens could just say "I have no desire to let my house be searched" when police is conducting a criminal investigation, then how would society work? How would the government collect taxes if people decided to refuse to share any of their financial information? Secrecy is just a subcategory of privacy, it's not a separate thing.

I don't belong to the school of thought that says Bitcoin/cryptocurrency to replace fiant this is so because decentralized currency can only serve as an alternative but not a replacement, so even though the central bank and its affiliated agency will sort to collect information which gives up privacy the truth of the matter is there is no 100% privacy even on the decentralized blockchain.

Whe  it comes to privacy and bitcoin dishing our fiat to fund what ever.

There have also been money laundrers who do the same with fiat, using celebrities, company accounts and more to hide funds. People talk about corruption and somehow, .any stolen funds acrostic world are often dumped in a Swiss account hence the phrase, 'A Swiss banker' and then bitcoin comes forth then, they recall that, its the only criminal tool out there for staying off the grid.

Stopping or making a centralise system out of bitcoin wouldn't stop or solve the world's problems. If leaders of the world could stop themselves from themselves and resolve to abstain from corrupt practices then, they would enjoy all that cryptocurrency is here to offer. Not to mention, sending money across the world and get it credited in seconds or minutes.

A society can work with total privacy; what it can't work with is total secrecy, which is what you probably meant.

Privacy is when you don't want to be known from the whole world. Secrecy is when you don't want to be known by anyone. A private matter can be revealed when it is desired by the individual. But, a secret matter must not be revealed. When you send a message over the internet using strong encryption, it's not necessarily meant to be kept secret, but read by only those for whom you intend to.

Not only can it work, but it's fundamental for the society's safety, for the preservation of democracy and freedom of speech in general.

People like their conform more than they like privacy. It has always been like that and Bitcoin is no exception. When I ask someone where do they keep their crypto, the answer is almost always on an exchange. They care about their privacy but not enough to go trough the trouble of creating their own wallet. It's easier for someone else to keep their crypto just like they trust banks with their fiat money. I have given up explaining why should they keep their crypto on their personal wallets and not on an exchange.

When you're talking about privacy, any third party aside you is not able to manage your privacy...your data is almost all over the internet how would you know when they're leaked... let me draw your attention to mark Zuckerberg Data and privacy leaked which lead to him been interogated by Congress men should be a sign enough that the society isn't mature enough to handle privacy.
I think that the society as it is right now can't handle privacy with the increasing numbers of hackers everyday on the internet, not sure.

The op's saying many want Bitcoin to fund illegal activities, but IMO it was the case before, years ago, whereas now Bitcoin is being carefully watched and, in many cases, regulated, so it's not very efficient to ditch fiat for it for illegal stuff. I think instead the main motive is using fiat as money, but Bitcoin as an investment. And it can also be judged, sure, but people can do what they want and use Bitcoin the way they see fit. After all, Bitcoin wasn't built to be as private as possible, or otherwise all transactions wouldn't be visible on the blockchain. So privacy matters more to some and less to others, and talking about society as a whole is simplifying things. Also, I don't think it's right to judge people for not caring enough about their privacy. Privacy is a right, not an obligation, and if some are okay with KYC procedures, for example, they shouldn't be blamed for being 'not mature enough to handle privacy' IMO.

I don't see much difference either pre or post blockchain innovation. We can only see how these people's identities deal with their money when confronted with something decentralized, when they can hide behind more "private" finances or have their own financial sovereignty.

Privacy is not only used for evil, but also to protect against evil.

Decentralization and privacy are not the same. Privacy is not letting others know about your actions, decentralization is lack of central control over system.

A society with total privacy can not function, because things like law enforcement, taxation, military conscription and lots of other things. A society with total decentralization would also be dysfunctional, because it wouldn't be able to defend itself, solve any major crisis, have any national program and so on.

If a country ditched their national currency for Bitcoin, they would be extremely vulnerable to its volatility and it would be very hard to perform certain functions. Imagine if a country sets a budget of 100,000 BTC for the next year, and Bitcoin crashes by 30% and now they have to find more BTC or cut some programs. Then Bitcoin rebounds and the plan needs to be changed again.

Its true that fiat has so many restrictions that we feel uncomfortable talking about personal privacy, but don't forget that fiat is the measure of the value of all other things including gold. Without fiat we wouldn't be able to determine the value of bitcoin, getting rid of fiat entirely and replacing it with a decentralized currency would be impossible. I think a world where both bitcoin and fiat coexist is better, fiat is still essential in our daily needs.

We can completely choose what we want. Good and bad things always go together. And of course, disseminating knowledge to shape usage behavior is always important to see how that field will be used. Personally, I'm middle-aged, so I'm not too harsh on money laundering through privacy issues, but like the OP mentioned, information security reasons are what we need.

Privacy is a double-edged sword. Whether you implement it or not, there is always a set of advantages and disadvantages. There's an inevitable overlap. But it's not an issue of maturity. What you can see of humans today is what humans are. The issue is that there will always be a compromise. Without which, something is sacrificed. For example, we all want the government and everybody else to fully respect our privacy but, at the same time, we also want the authorities to assure our safety. The two can't be fully guaranteed at the same time.

I am pro-capitalism so I wouldn't mind an economic system in which Bitcoin and fiat co-exist, with Bitcoin acting as a competitor to traditional currencies to keep them in check. Fiat, or digitalized currencies will exist regardless if Bitcoin is mass adopted. You don't need to be a pro-BTC absolutist to recognize its merits as a global currency while also including in the conversation the probability that fiat will be around.

With the way things are looking, fiat currency will be rebranded as CBDC's and those digital tokens will then compete with Bitcoin. If a country has the economy to sustain the competition, I don't see an issue. Let the consumers decide whether they'd rather keep their funds in crypto or fiat. With how irresponsible is, it shouldn't be a hard choice.

Nah, I don't think that they are going into bitcoin because they are going to do some illegal things. Maybe just a small percentage, but majority of people are into bitcoin because it is one of the best asset right now.


I also does not agree with your premise here, fiat or central banks are one of the pillars of society and they have been with us for centuries. True, bitcoin disrupts the financial system, but it doesn't mean that it will take over and replace fiat is this is what you are trying to drive at.

Your idea could (unfortunately) actually become reality in the next years. The European Union is already trying to make a new law in order to add a KYC feature to every single address used to withdraw/deposit to an exchange. Of course even the CEXs are against this because it would take a huge amount of time and energy to check and register ever address used by every single user.

I have thought a lot about it, personally I think that governments and banks will eventuality release their own wallets in which you will need to pass KYC just to have access to them, they will never reveal your private keys or seed words and you will be able to use your coins everywhere there is a government registered business that deals with cryptocurrencies, obviously people like us will never accept something like this, but it will not surprise me if regular people actually did as they care way more about convenience than their own rights and the principles behind bitcoin.

If the government had greater control over bitcoin transactions, Bitcoin would no longer be a decentralized asset because of the clearer exposure to every transaction made. This also depends on how the regulations apply in the government.
But I believe the government can not make full or greater control. governments only regulate what they can regulate.

privacy becomes important when it comes to decentralization, about bitcoin and about cryptocurrencies.

Nothing is bad in privacy, it either you handle it all by yourself or else its not privacy at all.


You're right, but when we consider the rate of those that use it for investment and those for illicit acts, we can see the difference is much visible enough with about 96:04 ratio and in percentage base on my personal view, even in fiat currency lot of illegal stuffs are much higher than in bitcoin, we have to understand individuals differences and mentality once it comes to a community settings and we cannot for that evade the benefits of bitcoin in relation to illicit activities some used it for.


Privacy is never abused in any way just because some people may take the advantage to perpetrate fraud, people that fall a victim of scam should be one way or the other blamed and take responsibility for that, because they might have been carelessly unaware with what is meant to be their private data being revealed to scammers knowingly or unknowingly, if one has a property and fail to secure it, then it may end up falling in the hands of looters.

What to say about the history of humanity? Different phases, different ways to trade with or without privacy.
Our ancestors used to live free, hunt for their own foods, slowly started growing crops and mastered new technique for the same.

Slowly came the era when few were good at making weapons, few were good at farming and few were good at arts and so on.

So what they did? They wisely started sharing those things. They traded food for cloth, art for stones and pebbles, metals for food and so on.

Was there a system? I don’t think so. But they did it at “free will”. They set out their personal weightage to everything and traded. It was more or less decentralised system.

However, as the revolutions started hitting, came the King rules, systematic settlements where there was rule. Money starte printed on stones, metals and only that was valued and was traded.

They devalued the so called PRIVACY of personal stuff, no one cared about your art skills or foods or cloths. If you have Kings coin then only you can have trade.

This is what we doing today with fiat in more organised manner with clean prints and stamps.

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Coming to your question of privacy:
Have you heard the news? Banks getting robbed, people getting robbed on streets, people buying Cocaine with fiat and criminals around the world getting their money ceased for illegal activities?

Why bitcoin is privacy concern if fiat was so much regulated and yet it can not stop the criminal involvement?

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Bitcoin is perfect trading asset, similar to what our pre ancestors did.

I am able to send it at my will, whenever I want and how much I want. In addition to this the value is versatile and it my look out when to trade its and at what value. That’s my privacy bubble.

Better not to stress out yourself on something like this because we do have our personal own view or taking about privacy.Some would really be going into that illegal means and some would just stay or

stick when it comes to privacy matters and dont really go into other means which maturity doesnt really always been indicated on how you do make use of privacy
whether you would go to negative or just simply stick into its main benefits and with decentralized and anonymity aspect then it is really hard to tell on whose
the one do really make some advantage of it.

when it comes to privacy and Fiat, everything will go back to normal in the discussion because even though there are many things that are not profitable in fiat, but still this cannot be broken just because of that. Fiat is still there and will continue to exist until whenever regardless of the presence of Bitcoin or not we cannot eliminate Fiat in circulation.
Their presence is something that will be absolute because indeed their support is very large from the government, so it will be very difficult to eliminate it, especially for now they are still very much needed for most people in their daily lives.

A complete abandon of fiat money will likely not happen (atleast not anytime soon) the most likely scenario is bitcoin may become a Commodity while fiat will still be used in everyday life,was this sathois's plan for bitcoin ? probably not but it is what it is.

No matter how a maximalist anyone wants to be on Bitcoin, I still find it difficult to believe they will jettison the whole idea of fiat completely. It's very unlikely that will succeed if anyone embarks on that. Cryptocurrency will continue to need fiat to survive. If not, Bitcoin price and value won't be checked based on fiat. Again, we should realize that there's nothing like complete privacy when it comes to any system man controls or indulges in. There must be a leak somewhere. In furtherance, the argument that cryptocurrency aids illicit activities can't be a reason to hate it. Every other instrument of value has been known to have been used as a medium too for illicit activities, be it cowries, Fiat, gold. Just name them.

Matured enough in what sense?

Sometimes when people think of this privacy as something that would work as a bubble surrounding you and nobody can see through it I honestly feel like laughing, forget the whole thing about the Yellowpages where your phone number and address were written for everybody to know and now people freak out when somebody finds them on Facebook. I've just finished reading one of Simenon's novels from the Maigret series, I wonder how the f word would any of those have taken place in a country with fully implemented GDPR and privacy laws, probably all of those have gotten away as you couldn't even ask the concierge the names of people living in the building


Decentralized society?
You have the perfect example of how a decentralized society will work when you look at the way the EU is not working now.
The moment half of the parents in my kid's class decide the starting hour should be 8 the other half at 10 and the teacher says she will only teach in the afternoon is the moment you realize that even animals have a leader that tells the herd where and when to go and if someone doesn't obey gets left behind.
And if anyone says that the way things should work is by the will of the majority, that's not decentralization, that's democracy.

Second, why the hell do all the bad things in the world have to happen so that we ditch fiat for bitcoin?
I've never understood this obsession with how the collapse of the world economy will be good for us cause people will switch to bitcoin? Do you see people in Mariupol adopting and using BTC?  No, the ones doing so are those who are now in Florida and don't care about spending 2k on a plane ticket, 4 k on accommodation, and a whopping 20k for a whale pass to attend the conference as a VIP.

Bitcoin is money, money and wealth can't thrive during insecuirty and crises.

I'd like to hear how others think privacy (outside of crypto) could be preserved. This could be technological or political, like ensuring an internet Bill of Rights.

There's never been a time with so little privacy, and it will only get worse. Right now you use a phone, the internet, satellites, and banking that identifies you very uniquely in many different ways. Granted, in this forum it may be different for the obvious reason, but everyone here is connected to the modern world some how.

Privacy allows individuals to develop uniquely and creates new and interesting ways to push the world into even higher heights, so is a worthy cause.

No debate is old as long as it hasn't  solved the issue on ground.  It  only becomes old when there is a  solution. I agree to the fact that  Scammers actually  go for anything  of value but with decentralization  it will  be easy pizzy entry because  every one is a costodian of their wallet.  The ease to tracing bitcoin  transaction  is double of what it  will take to track a centralized  transaction.  Privacy  is good but for a mutured society

Not sure if you answer on whether privacy is both good and bad. As far as I read, you only say that Bitcoin makes people financial sovereigns of themselves.

What do you see? Judging by the fact that the majority hasn't yet understood what's self-custody and why you shouldn't leave coins on centralized exchanges I'm going to say a big no, they don't. And most will never do.

But, let cryptocurrencies off the table. The mass, which mirrors society, ignores completely that their privacy is demanded. The mass doesn't care. The mass wants to show everybody what they're eating, when and where they're eating it, if they've gone to a luxurious hotel, if they're at the beach, if they're dressed nicely, if they're looking for a relationship etc.

We've passed the part where they don't care about their privacy. People in current societies want to share the moments which were considered private in the past.

This is an old and tired argument. Fiat has for many years before Bitcoin been a medium for illegal transaction and money laundering and the most popular one at that. Scammers would go after anything of value, from gold to gift cards, this does not mean they fund illegal activities.
About the privacy argument; While Bitcoin is pseudo anonymous, it is very transparent and traceable, so it's possible to trace the trail of a transaction. More traceable than physical cash.

The insecurity is an actual reason to want a decentralized network which gives the user control over their assets. This is accentuated by the poor fiscal policies being made by governments and banks, making banks very prone to inflation and devaluation.

Fiat won't disappear anytime soon, that's for sure. Regarding your concerns about the privacy, well, let's say that bitcoin really becomes mainstream, I can totally image several governments making new laws to link your ID to a specific bitcoin address, just like if it was a bank, and for example to buy something at the supermarket you have to show a proof that you're the real owner of that "certified" address. Of course people will continue to use also "non-registered" addresses, but I'm pretty sure the governments will find a way to have way more control over bitcoin transactions.

Privacy is good and bad at the same time.  And what becomes of it is dependent  on who handles it and how the handle it.  So far many wants to have bitcoin  ditch  out  fiat not for the intent of  having total control of their funds but for the sake of funding illegal activities  online without  any point of trace,  regulations,  monitoring  or prevention.

I am not disputing  the fact many still have genuine  reason for going private which include bank frustration and restrictions,  withdrawal  limits and declaration  of assets and investment as claim for legal possession  of a certain  amount  of fiat in a local bank.

But with the insecurity  and economic  crisis hitting the world from all angle is it still safe to agitate for a complete  decentralized  society  ditching  the fiat for bitcoin.  I only see both existing  together  with more preference on decentralization  but my concern  is if man is matured enough to handle the innovation or are you also seeing the abuse  of privacy coming along with it