Is there interest in a standalone low power miner?

paid2

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Quote from: floridaman86 on August 09, 2023, 12:47:39 PM

absolutely, why is anyone even discussing anything with less than 1TH at this point. Its a waste time and energy. What could you possibly mine, maybe 10 sats a day? The popular USB miner out there that currently does something like 300GH is a complete ripoff. People need to realize that, and stop promoting it

But there are many home miners, like myself, who are open to the idea of a lower hash rate... 3, 5, 10TH machines. Especially if they are on the quieter side, and do not pull massive amounts of power.

Simply because some people want a small ASIC that runs with almost no power consumption and no noise, as a lottery ticket for solo mining. Others are just interested in these ASICs as a hobby, or others use them to demystify mining without risking much.

No interest? Tell that to the guy who found a block with a Gekko Compac F not so long ago. Do you think people would bother to develop such ASICs and others to use them if there was no interest?

Just because you don't understand the point of something, doesn't mean there isn't one. Many people like to have a chance of finding a block (even if that chance is tiny) at the cost of just a few dozen watts.

floridaman86

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Quote from: philipma1957 on July 29, 2023, 06:51:20 PM

Quote from: floridaman86 on July 29, 2023, 05:02:29 PM

Quote from: rapsacw on June 16, 2023, 06:36:51 AM

I'm developing a series of standalone miners built around BM1387 & BM1397 asics and an ESP32-C3. I've been working on these for over 1 year now and I think I've got enough knowledge now to make a version that can be mass produced, the question I have now: is anyone interested in such a miner?
The configuration I'm thinking of has the following properties:
- Standalone, only a usb charger with 5V/3A needed and a wireless connection.
- Single BM1397 asic.
- Hash rate of 200GHs upto 250GHs (and more probably).
- Power consumption out of the wall 8-15W (depending on efficiency of the charger and hash rate).
- My own miner software (open source, in beta stage, fully working but lousy UI) based on Arduino libraries that allows manual on the fly voltage and frequency settings.
- totally not worth running on a non-solo pool, but a cheap lottery ticket where you enter the drawing for free every 10 minutes for as long as you live(*)..

I've designed my hardware around parts that are for sale on aliexpress, but for mass production I will have to redesign parts of it using components for sale at mouser.com , and I will need to find a company willing to produce them (a problem as the asics are not sold by any big electronics reseller), and also sell them. Currently I'm thinking of seeedstudio.com, but I haven't contacted them yet to see if they are both willing and capable (sourcing the bm1397's and soldering them on the backside of the pcb).
There is also a open source version with bm1387 asics (that I could also redesign to use mouser parts) that you can built yourself (advanced electronic soldering capabilities/tools required).
I have 6 prototypes running, live stats https://solo.ckpool.org/users/1KgwWwBh7qGtcWJ9ZRNTUbVCR1L2qYkzcy, 3 bm1387 versions (2 with 2 asics, one with 4 asics), and three single bm1397 versions (workernames containing 'test').
I started out designing the miners for personal use and therefor used parts from aliexpress but I'm so satisfied with them (they will run as long as the internet connection is up, and will reconnect in 99.9% of the cases when it is not, the 0.01% is caused by a quirk in the esp software) that *I think* others might be interested in them also.
But it will require another hardware redesign which is not needed for my personal use miners.
So, should I invest the time (and money) in this for you? Or is this a niche product? I have no idea what the retail price will be in the end, but the pcb hardware and assembly should not be much more than $50, add to that a margin the the sales & production, an included cooling solution (say $5 for the heatsink and another $2 for a fan, $x for 2 small 3D printed clips to mount everything) and that should be it.
Comment in this topic if interested, or if you think this is stupid, you won't hurt my feelings as I have already got what I set out to achieve.

(*) I'm not sure if any (solo) pool will support low hash rate miners in the future. Pool operators have to pay for their hardware and connection, and a low hash rate miner costs them as much as a complete mining farm. Maybe CK can answer that.

ps: new forum user with (unknown to me) restrictions, my old user name got lost in 2016)

edit:
I've redesigned the miner to use standard parts, but sadly i'll have to make another one as one of the buck converters from mouser.com is apparently a fake Sad

Anyway, I did some stress testing to see what it can handle and got this https://github.com/rapsacw/aSiNine-ESP-miner/blob/main/ui.png

I think there is interest in low power miners, especially if they're quiet, but 200GH is way too low. You won't mine anything with such little power.
to gain any real interest, you will need to get the hash power in the range of 3-5 TH. And keep the noise below 50db.
If you can accomplish that, you can probably sell the miner in the range of $750-$1,000. and be competitive with Futurebit

If you could build a 220 watt machine that does 10th you would get buyers. You could also charge a premium.

absolutely, why is anyone even discussing anything with less than 1TH at this point. Its a waste time and energy. What could you possibly mine, maybe 10 sats a day? The popular USB miner out there that currently does something like 300GH is a complete ripoff. People need to realize that, and stop promoting it

But there are many home miners, like myself, who are open to the idea of a lower hash rate... 3, 5, 10TH machines. Especially if they are on the quieter side, and do not pull massive amounts of power.

rapsacw

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Quote from: Flexystar on August 07, 2023, 11:10:58 AM

.. I think I would love to have such miner in my house running all the time like heater in the corner. I would be more than happy to pay the bills for it since it will be generating something all the time. I am anyway holder of bitcoin so if they just mine and sit in my wallet then also I would be more than happy.

However, this has to be real simple layman consumable product with not much wirings, not much maintenance kind of stuff. Since I am not a hard core miner I would be more focused on the hobby scale and flashing it as if I do mine. Grin

You won't heat much with 12.5W Wink

The only practical heating use I can think of is an egg incubator for 1-5 eggs Tongue

The miner is 'fire and forget' once you've got it running. It will start mining after power up without intervention. The configuration isn't hard either. That leaves the assembly; I'm not going to produce complete kits for different reasons, so in the end you will have to at least fix the heatsink (not sure if I will sell them with the pcb) and fan (ditto) to the pcb (and apply thermal compound), either using tie wraps (that is what I am using rn) or 3d printed or laser cut brackets, and get a suitable usb charger + usb-c cable (and optional usb trigger pcb so you can power the miner with 9V). You can find some more info on this here https://github.com/rapsacw/aSiNine_and8

Flexystar

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Quote from: DaveF on June 16, 2023, 07:37:26 AM

What is the difference between yours and the GekkoScience Compac F?
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/gekkoscience-has-a-new-stickminer-that-does-300gh-5355470

Things like this are and will always be a hobby project for people to play with but there is nothing wrong with making it and trying to sell it.

Just keep in mind, you will have to support it, and deal with issues with them and so on.

But, it still looks like a cool project.
Post image links, since you are a new users they will not show up in the post but people can quote / click on them.

-Dave

This is valid point but more than that I am loving the fact that OP is highly passionate about his project and working on the same since one year now. I think I would love to have such miner in my house running all the time like heater in the corner. I would be more than happy to pay the bills for it since it will be generating something all the time. I am anyway holder of bitcoin so if they just mine and sit in my wallet then also I would be more than happy.

However, this has to be real simple layman consumable product with not much wirings, not much maintenance kind of stuff. Since I am not a hard core miner I would be more focused on the hobby scale and flashing it as if I do mine. Grin

So one positive vote from my end. You should really up scale it and bring the product in market.

Skot

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Rapsacw,

This is seriously impressive work that you’ve done. Despite what some claim, this is no easy task! Keep doing what you’re doing and publishing your work. Bitcoin and by extension the world will be better off for it.

rapsacw

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Quote from: kano on August 05, 2023, 09:16:18 AM

Seriously?

Took me less than an hour to analyse the work data control necessary for an S19 chip.
Of course someone else spent many hours connecting up all the hardware to dump and format the data so I could do it,
but if you're gonna say it's that hard without trying, then I'd worry about anyone using anything you built.

While 'we' do already have the info to do a 3rd party miner with the chip, unfortunately it's not a priority at the moment Sad

Ok, now try to do it without access to miner (and a pool(emulation) so you know what data is send to the chips) Wink

I've got a diy logger, but no miner.. The hardware side is not a big problem though.
I've done my part in dissecting protocols and the underlying meaning of the data that goes over a unknown bus by analyzing the communication of the meade autostar system and constructed a meade compatible servo and stepper motor driver for astro mounts and I'm sure I could do likewise with x19(+) miners, but without a miner??
I do find it strange that info on X19(+) miners isn't available years after the release of the miners.

On my standalone BM1397 miner; the revised revision Wink

pcb's have arrived and I've built one prototype. Regarding the cost (if you desperately want to know), the bom is something like this (missing the usb connector and optional DG301 screw terminal):

Code:

Part Value Device Package Description MF MPN OC_FARNELL OC_NEWARK PROD_ID
C1,C2,C3,C4,C6,C12,C13,C14,C15,C20,C35,[C37],C38 4.7uF/16V C-EUC0402 C0402 CAPACITOR, European symbol
C5 56pF C-EUC0402 C0402 CAPACITOR, European symbol
C7,C10,C11,C21,C24,C36,C31,C34 100nF C-EUC0402 C0402 CAPACITOR, European symbol
C8,C9,C18,C26 22uF/25V C-EUC0805 C0805 CAPACITOR, European symbol
C16,C17,C22,C23 47uF/6.3V C-EUC0805 C0805 CAPACITOR, European symbol
D1 WS2812 WS2812_5050 WS2812-5X5-4PIN Addressable RGB LED - 1 Wire DIO-12503
ESP32C3-MINI-1 ESP32-C3-MINI-1 ESP32C3MINI ESP32C3MINI
L$2 3.3uH NR201610 NR201610
L4 1uh R-EU_R0402 R0402 RESISTOR, European symbol
R1 49.9k R-EU_R0402 R0402 RESISTOR, European symbol
R2,R4,R10 2k2 R-EU_R0402 R0402 RESISTOR, European symbol
R3,R5 1k5 R-EU_R0402 R0402 RESISTOR, European symbol
R6,R7,R8,R29,R36,R41 1k R-EU_R0402 R0402 RESISTOR, European symbol
R9 82k R-EU_R0402 R0402 RESISTOR, European symbol
R11 20R R-EU_R0402 R0402 RESISTOR, European symbol
R12,R17,R40,R31 4k7 R-EU_R0402 R0402 RESISTOR, European symbol
R13,R25,R26 15k R-EU_R0402 R0402 RESISTOR, European symbol
R14 22R R-EU_R0402 R0402 RESISTOR, European symbol
R16,R22 5k1 R-EU_R0402 R0402 RESISTOR, European symbol
R18 30k R-EU_R0402 R0402 RESISTOR, European symbol
R34 33k R-EU_R0603 R0603 RESISTOR, European symbol
R35 22k R-EU_R0402 R0402 RESISTOR, European symbol
R37 ntc 33k B3950 R-EU_R0402 R0402 RESISTOR, European symbol
T1 2N3904 2N3904 SOT23 NPN TRANSISTOR
U$1 BM1397-1 BM1397AG BM1391
U$2 TPS56C2150Z6-7 TPS56C2150Z6-7 VQFN-HR
U$3 0.68uH L10040 L10040
U$4 XC6206P18 XC6206P SOT23
U$7 SY8113A SY8113A SOT23L-6
U$14 PT8211S PT8211 SO-8
U$22 25MHz OSC3225 3225 Active oscillator 25MHz 3225 1.8V

Most parts are available at jlcpcb (except the bm1397ag) but as good as all parts are extended parts (meaning $3,- per part, ~$100,- per batch of upto 30pcs on top of the part prices).
Efficiency is at 12.5W @ 300GHs when fed with 9V (according to my crappy usb power meter), live stats still on https://solo.ckpool.org/users/1KgwWwBh7qGtcWJ9ZRNTUbVCR1L2qYkzcy (workername": "1KgwWwBh7qGtcWJ9ZRNTUbVCR1L2qYkzcy.test1397_12B")

kano

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Seriously?

Took me less than an hour to analyse the work data control necessary for an S19 chip.
Of course someone else spent many hours connecting up all the hardware to dump and format the data so I could do it,
but if you're gonna say it's that hard without trying, then I'd worry about anyone using anything you built.

While 'we' do already have the info to do a 3rd party miner with the chip, unfortunately it's not a priority at the moment Sad

rapsacw

newbie

Activity: 17

Merit: 42

The target user of this little miner isn't looking for 100W+ miners, they can buy one new from antminer. Furthermore 22W/Ths is in the (distant) future because there is little to no information on the newer chips making 3rd party miners impossible. As I said in the opening post; these are not meant to be run on a normal pool, but can be used to solo mine (with a chance of ~1:25000 of finding a block per year) giving a better chance of a substantial prize than a lottery ticket. And you will learn a few things running such a small miner, such as what big numbers really mean, how pools work, how to run a miner at peak efficiency, how to cool electronics etc.

philipma1957

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Quote from: floridaman86 on July 29, 2023, 05:02:29 PM

Quote from: rapsacw on June 16, 2023, 06:36:51 AM

I'm developing a series of standalone miners built around BM1387 & BM1397 asics and an ESP32-C3. I've been working on these for over 1 year now and I think I've got enough knowledge now to make a version that can be mass produced, the question I have now: is anyone interested in such a miner?
The configuration I'm thinking of has the following properties:
- Standalone, only a usb charger with 5V/3A needed and a wireless connection.
- Single BM1397 asic.
- Hash rate of 200GHs upto 250GHs (and more probably).
- Power consumption out of the wall 8-15W (depending on efficiency of the charger and hash rate).
- My own miner software (open source, in beta stage, fully working but lousy UI) based on Arduino libraries that allows manual on the fly voltage and frequency settings.
- totally not worth running on a non-solo pool, but a cheap lottery ticket where you enter the drawing for free every 10 minutes for as long as you live(*)..

I've designed my hardware around parts that are for sale on aliexpress, but for mass production I will have to redesign parts of it using components for sale at mouser.com , and I will need to find a company willing to produce them (a problem as the asics are not sold by any big electronics reseller), and also sell them. Currently I'm thinking of seeedstudio.com, but I haven't contacted them yet to see if they are both willing and capable (sourcing the bm1397's and soldering them on the backside of the pcb).
There is also a open source version with bm1387 asics (that I could also redesign to use mouser parts) that you can built yourself (advanced electronic soldering capabilities/tools required).
I have 6 prototypes running, live stats https://solo.ckpool.org/users/1KgwWwBh7qGtcWJ9ZRNTUbVCR1L2qYkzcy, 3 bm1387 versions (2 with 2 asics, one with 4 asics), and three single bm1397 versions (workernames containing 'test').
I started out designing the miners for personal use and therefor used parts from aliexpress but I'm so satisfied with them (they will run as long as the internet connection is up, and will reconnect in 99.9% of the cases when it is not, the 0.01% is caused by a quirk in the esp software) that *I think* others might be interested in them also.
But it will require another hardware redesign which is not needed for my personal use miners.
So, should I invest the time (and money) in this for you? Or is this a niche product? I have no idea what the retail price will be in the end, but the pcb hardware and assembly should not be much more than $50, add to that a margin the the sales & production, an included cooling solution (say $5 for the heatsink and another $2 for a fan, $x for 2 small 3D printed clips to mount everything) and that should be it.
Comment in this topic if interested, or if you think this is stupid, you won't hurt my feelings as I have already got what I set out to achieve.

(*) I'm not sure if any (solo) pool will support low hash rate miners in the future. Pool operators have to pay for their hardware and connection, and a low hash rate miner costs them as much as a complete mining farm. Maybe CK can answer that.

ps: new forum user with (unknown to me) restrictions, my old user name got lost in 2016)

edit:
I've redesigned the miner to use standard parts, but sadly i'll have to make another one as one of the buck converters from mouser.com is apparently a fake Sad

Anyway, I did some stress testing to see what it can handle and got this https://github.com/rapsacw/aSiNine-ESP-miner/blob/main/ui.png

I think there is interest in low power miners, especially if they're quiet, but 200GH is way too low. You won't mine anything with such little power.
to gain any real interest, you will need to get the hash power in the range of 3-5 TH. And keep the noise below 50db.
If you can accomplish that, you can probably sell the miner in the range of $750-$1,000. and be competitive with Futurebit

If you could build a 220 watt machine that does 10th you would get buyers. You could also charge a premium.

floridaman86

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Quote from: rapsacw on June 16, 2023, 06:36:51 AM

I'm developing a series of standalone miners built around BM1387 & BM1397 asics and an ESP32-C3. I've been working on these for over 1 year now and I think I've got enough knowledge now to make a version that can be mass produced, the question I have now: is anyone interested in such a miner?
The configuration I'm thinking of has the following properties:
- Standalone, only a usb charger with 5V/3A needed and a wireless connection.
- Single BM1397 asic.
- Hash rate of 200GHs upto 250GHs (and more probably).
- Power consumption out of the wall 8-15W (depending on efficiency of the charger and hash rate).
- My own miner software (open source, in beta stage, fully working but lousy UI) based on Arduino libraries that allows manual on the fly voltage and frequency settings.
- totally not worth running on a non-solo pool, but a cheap lottery ticket where you enter the drawing for free every 10 minutes for as long as you live(*)..

I've designed my hardware around parts that are for sale on aliexpress, but for mass production I will have to redesign parts of it using components for sale at mouser.com , and I will need to find a company willing to produce them (a problem as the asics are not sold by any big electronics reseller), and also sell them. Currently I'm thinking of seeedstudio.com, but I haven't contacted them yet to see if they are both willing and capable (sourcing the bm1397's and soldering them on the backside of the pcb).
There is also a open source version with bm1387 asics (that I could also redesign to use mouser parts) that you can built yourself (advanced electronic soldering capabilities/tools required).
I have 6 prototypes running, live stats https://solo.ckpool.org/users/1KgwWwBh7qGtcWJ9ZRNTUbVCR1L2qYkzcy, 3 bm1387 versions (2 with 2 asics, one with 4 asics), and three single bm1397 versions (workernames containing 'test').
I started out designing the miners for personal use and therefor used parts from aliexpress but I'm so satisfied with them (they will run as long as the internet connection is up, and will reconnect in 99.9% of the cases when it is not, the 0.01% is caused by a quirk in the esp software) that *I think* others might be interested in them also.
But it will require another hardware redesign which is not needed for my personal use miners.
So, should I invest the time (and money) in this for you? Or is this a niche product? I have no idea what the retail price will be in the end, but the pcb hardware and assembly should not be much more than $50, add to that a margin the the sales & production, an included cooling solution (say $5 for the heatsink and another $2 for a fan, $x for 2 small 3D printed clips to mount everything) and that should be it.
Comment in this topic if interested, or if you think this is stupid, you won't hurt my feelings as I have already got what I set out to achieve.

(*) I'm not sure if any (solo) pool will support low hash rate miners in the future. Pool operators have to pay for their hardware and connection, and a low hash rate miner costs them as much as a complete mining farm. Maybe CK can answer that.

ps: new forum user with (unknown to me) restrictions, my old user name got lost in 2016)

edit:
I've redesigned the miner to use standard parts, but sadly i'll have to make another one as one of the buck converters from mouser.com is apparently a fake Sad

Anyway, I did some stress testing to see what it can handle and got this https://github.com/rapsacw/aSiNine-ESP-miner/blob/main/ui.png

I think there is interest in low power miners, especially if they're quiet, but 200GH is way too low. You won't mine anything with such little power.
to gain any real interest, you will need to get the hash power in the range of 3-5 TH. And keep the noise below 50db.
If you can accomplish that, you can probably sell the miner in the range of $750-$1,000. and be competitive with Futurebit

rapsacw

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That is what lack of competition (or demand) will do I guess.

g5120u

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Seeing home power enthusiasts gradually achieve the world's highest chip minimum wattage is a milestone, but seeing resellers now selling it for hundreds of dollars more than older equipment still feels like a high barrier to entry for beginners, not to mention extra shipping from around the world

Huh

rapsacw

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Quote from: Skot on July 19, 2023, 12:30:59 PM

Just to follow up on this; I have noticed a single S19XP hashboard with a chain of 110 ASICs (BM1366), running at 46 TH/s sends out new work to the whole chain every 2.14s
if it were just rolling nonce, the chain would need new work every 93us

Its a shame there is so little info on the newer chips.
On a happier note; my redesigned version can be pushed to 350GHs+, and on a sad note; the 3.3V regulator from Mouser is either fake or junk as it blows instantly when fed with 12V (also blew up the esp), so I will have to do another version yet again with another regulator which will again take a month to produce/test.

Skot

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Quote from: Skot on June 21, 2023, 09:22:12 AM

Quote from: kano on June 21, 2023, 01:06:51 AM

Anyway, that's not the case with an S19 chip - it does work generation in the chip - so you don't have to send work very often at all.

Whoa! This is blowing mind! Is the BM1398 (and BM1362) version rolling on the chip?? I would love to learn more about this.

Or maybe they are ntime rolling? I guess that’s a lot easier.

Just to follow up on this; I have noticed a single S19XP hashboard with a chain of 110 ASICs (BM1366), running at 46 TH/s sends out new work to the whole chain every 2.14s
if it were just rolling nonce, the chain would need new work every 93us

This means you could easily control many 10s of TH/s with a microcontroller.

rapsacw

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Quote from: kano on June 22, 2023, 08:12:33 PM

..
Alas that code doesn't consider the actual restrictions in bitcoin.
He has no idea about it.

I am not going to risc it and limit ntime rolling to a safe 60s, this should work

Quote

/*
* Create block header for new job by incrementing ntime and/or xnonce2,
* calls Header_construct to create a new binary block header.
*/
void Header_nextjob()
{
  // m_ntimeBCKUP contains the ntime value received from pool
  // m_Tntime contains the time (in ms) when work was received from pool
  if(m_RollednTime<(MAX_NTIME_ROLL+(millis()-m_Tntime))/1000)
  {
   inc_4bin(m_ntime); // increment nTime
   m_RollednTime++;
   Header_construct(0); // contruct new block header, don't calculate new merkle
  }
  else
  {
   inc_nbin(m_xnonce2,m_xnonce2sz);
   memcpy(m_ntime,m_ntimeBCKUP,4); // restore ntime to unrolled value
   m_RollednTime = 0;
   Header_construct(1); // construct new block header, calculate new merkle
  }
}

where MAX_NTIME_ROLL = 60

Thanks.

kano

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Quote from: rapsacw on June 22, 2023, 05:12:45 AM

...
I don't know where I've read that you may only increase ntime, and only upto 60 seconds. Reading ck's pool source I find

Quote

   /* Ntime cannot be less, but allow forward ntime rolling up to max */
   if (ntime32 < wb->ntime32 || ntime32 > wb->ntime32 + 7000) {
      err = SE_NTIME_INVALID;

So at least ckpool allows upto 7000x! No more xnonce2 rollover needed for small miners Grin

...

Alas that code doesn't consider the actual restrictions in bitcoin.
He has no idea about it.

rapsacw

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Merit: 42

Quote from: Skot on June 21, 2023, 05:24:04 PM

Nearly every stratum pool I have seen supports the version-rolling extension. that adds a version_bits field to mining.submit. afaik It's necessary to support ASICboost.

You learn something everyday. I've not seen any reference to this extension.

Quote

Where does 60x come from? every 30s is pretty leisurely compared to every 8ms @ 500 GH/s with nonce rolling alone!

I don't know where I've read that you may only increase ntime, and only upto 60 seconds. Reading ck's pool source I find

Quote

   /* Ntime cannot be less, but allow forward ntime rolling up to max */
   if (ntime32 < wb->ntime32 || ntime32 > wb->ntime32 + 7000) {
      err = SE_NTIME_INVALID;

So at least ckpool allows upto 7000x! No more xnonce2 rollover needed for small miners Grin

Quote

120 TH/s over 3 hashboards = 40 TH/s each, which means each hashboard can cover the 32 bit nonce space in 0.1ms. The newer ASICs have more midstates too, so that means bigger job packet. No way serial can keep up. It makes sense that they would include some sort of work generation on-chip. I'm really curious which field they are rolling.

Exactly.

Skot

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My guess for fields to roll on chip, from easiest to hardest:

1. ntime: you can roll this field for "free" as long as you don't go more than 2 hours in the past or 2 hours in the future. Rolling into the past is especially risky. You don't want to get a golden nonce rejected because ntime is bad!
2. version: if you roll the version field you have to recalculate the midstate. ASICs are pretty dang good at hashing, so why not do this every now and then? You just have to abide by the version mask negotiated with the stratum pool.
3. extranonce: this would be madness. you have to recalculate the Merkel root, so you would need to send the merkle tree to the ASIC. bleh.

Skot

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Quote from: rapsacw on June 21, 2023, 03:15:00 PM

Version rolling is not possible with most (stratum V1) pools; the ticket send back to the pool does not include nversion.

Nearly every stratum pool I have seen supports the version-rolling extension. that adds a version_bits field to mining.submit. afaik It's necessary to support ASICboost.

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ntime is no problem though, but you 'only' gain 60x with that, so you will only have to send work to a single asic @250GHs once for every work from the pool, or even @500GHs on ck's pool (as the work time is now reduced from 60s to 30s).

Where does 60x come from? every 30s is pretty leisurely compared to every 8ms @ 500 GH/s with nonce rolling alone!

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Some sort of block generation will be unavoidable sooner or later unless they do something with the serial interface to make it fast enough (a normal T17 needs a ~1.5Mbaud connection between the asics, so a S19j @120GHs would need roughly 3 times that speed without block generation).

120 TH/s over 3 hashboards = 40 TH/s each, which means each hashboard can cover the 32 bit nonce space in 0.1ms. The newer ASICs have more midstates too, so that means bigger job packet. No way serial can keep up. It makes sense that they would include some sort of work generation on-chip. I'm really curious which field they are rolling.

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Quote from: Skot on June 21, 2023, 09:22:12 AM

Whoa! This is blowing mind! Is the BM1398 (and BM1362) version rolling on the chip?? I would love to learn more about this.

Or maybe they are ntime rolling? I guess that’s a lot easier.

Version rolling is not possible with most (stratum V1) pools; the ticket send back to the pool does not include nversion. ntime is no problem though, but you 'only' gain 60x with that, so you will only have to send work to a single asic @250GHs once for every work from the pool, or even @500GHs on ck's pool (as the work time is now reduced from 60s to 30s). Some sort of block generation will be unavoidable sooner or later unless they do something with the serial interface to make it fast enough (a normal T17 needs a ~1.5Mbaud connection between the asics, so a S19j @120GHs would need roughly 3 times that speed without block generation).

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Quote from: kano on June 21, 2023, 01:06:51 AM

Anyway, that's not the case with an S19 chip - it does work generation in the chip - so you don't have to send work very often at all.

Whoa! This is blowing mind! Is the BM1398 (and BM1362) version rolling on the chip?? I would love to learn more about this.

Or maybe they are ntime rolling? I guess that’s a lot easier.

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Quote from: kano on June 21, 2023, 01:06:51 AM

Yes indeed the 'ticket mask' decides on nonces returned, and yes you still have to send work every few ms for a number of BM1397.

Alas I'm not sure what this overpowered computer is that you seem to think you need.
For a single BM1397 you can run about a dozen on tiny RPi power

That's about the block generation on the controller, and that's not hard to do even on tiny hardware (to be more specific regarding the esp32-c3; its a single core that also has to do the wireless comms, and the time needed for that depends on the link quality and so does the jitter in block generation timing).

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Quote from: rapsacw on June 19, 2023, 03:02:40 AM

"irrelevant" is badly chosen. I mean it is unavoidable to always have to send work updates, whereas tickets posted by the miner can be avoided by choosing a high difficulty.
I'm no pool operator (obviously), but keeping connections up will use up some memory and every client connected increases the latency. As I don't know the specifics I won't go into that, like I said, maybe CK can answer that.
I'll practice with the 'quote' button more so I'll only post a single reply to a topic instead of a reply to every post I quoted.

Yes indeed the 'ticket mask' decides on nonces returned, and yes you still have to send work every few ms for a number of BM1397.

Alas I'm not sure what this overpowered computer is that you seem to think you need.
For a single BM1397 you can run about a dozen on tiny RPi power

Anyway, that's not the case with an S19 chip - it does work generation in the chip - so you don't have to send work very often at all.

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"irrelevant" is badly chosen. I mean it is unavoidable to always have to send work updates, whereas tickets posted by the miner can be avoided by choosing a high difficulty.
I'm no pool operator (obviously), but keeping connections up will use up some memory and every client connected increases the latency. As I don't know the specifics I won't go into that, like I said, maybe CK can answer that.
I'll practice with the 'quote' button more so I'll only post a single reply to a topic instead of a reply to every post I quoted.

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Quote from: rapsacw on June 18, 2023, 05:46:52 PM

Well, the pool needs to send new work every 30s/60s, whether you are mining with 1MH/s or 100PH/s..
The few bytes that get send back from the miner are irrelevant

Not sure why you think the data from the miner to the pool is irrelevant, I think it requires more computational resources than the former, and the block template/work sent by the pool is nearly identical to all miners (with some pre-determined minor changes), the submitted shares need to be checked individually and thus probably require a lot more resources.

So while the "traffic size" from the pool to the miner is larger, the "computation power" is higher for the return route, correct me if am wrong.

With that said, we are talking about a few hundred bytes exchanged every "MERKLE_REFRESH_INTERVAL" which is probably 30/60 seconds for most pools, any decent pool should be able to handle hundreds of thousands of miners regardless of their hashrate, I am not aware of any mining pool that requires a minimum hashrate, they all have minimum difficulty and that's all about it, you can mine with a Pentium 1 CPU if you wish, it's all just matter of getting any valid hashes or not.

On a side but related note, posting consecutive posts is against the form rules and might get your posts deleted if someone reports them or a mod sees them, please edit the first post to include the other 2 replies and delete those.

Good luck.

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Quote from: paid2 on June 18, 2023, 11:09:24 AM

In my opinion, the real advantage would be to produce ready-to-sell PCBs and offer DIY kits if you want to sell cheaply, but that would limit the customer base even more.

My goal would be to bring the pcb to market and let the end user fiddle with the cooling. Cooling will not be hard as the asic is the sole component on the side of the pcb it is mounted on, so different size heatsinks will work. But a plug and play version would be possible too.

Quote from: Skot on June 18, 2023, 01:46:51 PM

The distinction is that the ESP32 doesn't run Linux. Because of that it can be significantly lower performance, and cheaper. All the while still being a very decent miner for ~6 ASICs

IMO BM1397 is still in the sweet spot of price, performance and efficiency (for people who aren't Bitmain). For example the BM1397 has a higher hashrate per chip and is cheaper in small-ish quantities than the BM1398 (S19) and BM1362 (S19J Pro)

I guess the esp's are more than fast enough to handle several asics. I will do some profiling so see what the actual number is.

I think sadly the BM1397 is the last asic suitable for these kind of miners. If you do the math you will find that newer asics need 20A or even 40A to run, and those kind of currents are not easily managed on 2-layer pcb's (or even 4-layers, just look at the current shunts plastered all over antminer hash boards).

Quote from: mikeywith on June 18, 2023, 04:21:56 PM

Quote from: rapsacw on June 16, 2023, 06:36:51 AM

(*) I'm not sure if any (solo) pool will support low hash rate miners in the future. Pool operators have to pay for their hardware and connection, and a low hash rate miner costs them as much as a complete mining farm. Maybe CK can answer that.

I think 0.2th - 0.25th is and will be for a good period of time enough hashrate to reasonably connect to any mining pool, it's completely fine if I get a valid share every 5 mins instead of every 5 seconds, the pool manages its resources through share difficulty and the hashrate of the device is irrelevant to them, they maintain certain traffic between their server and your miner/proxy by raising/lowering the difficulty.

Now the real question is, what is the price tag? I know you said you don't know, for you to get answers you need to find the answer to that question first, i might be interested in buying a few if it was $50, maybe buy 1-2 if it was $100, ditch the idea altogether if it was $200, so ya, sadly, it all boils down to the price.

Well, the pool needs to send new work every 30s/60s, whether you are mining with 1MH/s or 100PH/s..
The few bytes that get send back from the miner are irrelevant (also I've limited the max. tickets in my software to 3 per minute, but if you compile from source you could remove that limit).
Just think what 1000 of these miners will do for damage, or 10000?
I'm thinking of also creating a simple proxy (also on an ESP) so the pool would only have to supply work to one connection instead of having to waste resources on multiple miners on the same IP address.

Regarding the price; the estimate is nothing more than an estimate, but much more precise than a guess Wink

But I have no idea about margins. Like I said, I don't want to do anything myself regarding manufacturing and sales.

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Quote from: rapsacw on June 16, 2023, 06:36:51 AM

(*) I'm not sure if any (solo) pool will support low hash rate miners in the future. Pool operators have to pay for their hardware and connection, and a low hash rate miner costs them as much as a complete mining farm. Maybe CK can answer that.

I think 0.2th - 0.25th is and will be for a good period of time enough hashrate to reasonably connect to any mining pool, it's completely fine if I get a valid share every 5 mins instead of every 5 seconds, the pool manages its resources through share difficulty and the hashrate of the device is irrelevant to them, they maintain certain traffic between their server and your miner/proxy by raising/lowering the difficulty.

Now the real question is, what is the price tag? I know you said you don't know, for you to get answers you need to find the answer to that question first, i might be interested in buying a few if it was $50, maybe buy 1-2 if it was $100, ditch the idea altogether if it was $200, so ya, sadly, it all boils down to the price.

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Quote from: Artemis3 on June 18, 2023, 12:27:09 PM

But the ESP32-C3 is a computer... All asic miners have one to run the mining software (aka "control" board), they are ARM based, but i assume sooner or later they will switch to RISC-V like you did. China is particularly strongly interested in moving out from arm into risc-v.

So technically you just need to plug the Compac F to one of those SoC solutions via USB and port/compile cgminer to the appropriate architecture or replace it with your own mining software.

I'm curious about the availability of BM1397 at this point, shouldn't you aim for later chips now?

The distinction is that the ESP32 doesn't run Linux. Because of that it can be significantly lower performance, and cheaper. All the while still being a very decent miner for ~6 ASICs

Cgminer is really setup to run on a desktop OS (like Linux, macOS or Windows), and will not easily port to bare metal or an RTOS on the ESP32.

IMO BM1397 is still in the sweet spot of price, performance and efficiency (for people who aren't Bitmain). For example the BM1397 has a higher hashrate per chip and is cheaper in small-ish quantities than the BM1398 (S19) and BM1362 (S19J Pro)

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Quote from: rapsacw on June 16, 2023, 07:57:36 AM

The big difference is that the Compac F needs a computer attached to it to run as it uses cgminer software that requires hefty hardware to run on. My miners are standalone and require no computer.
Some links to my github;
Picture of webinterface of my software https://github.com/rapsacw/Basic-BM1387-miner/blob/main/aSiNine%20ESP%20miner%20v0.01.png
(this runs on the miner)
Github page to hard&software (to be updated soon, I'm only one person doing ALL the work) https://github.com/rapsacw

But the ESP32-C3 is a computer... All asic miners have one to run the mining software (aka "control" board), they are ARM based, but i assume sooner or later they will switch to RISC-V like you did. China is particularly strongly interested in moving out from arm into risc-v.

So technically you just need to plug the Compac F to one of those SoC solutions via USB and port/compile cgminer to the appropriate architecture or replace it with your own mining software.

I'm curious about the availability of BM1397 at this point, shouldn't you aim for later chips now?

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Quote from: hZti on June 18, 2023, 10:58:10 AM

I think if you can have such a device for under 100 USD then there is a good chance that it will catch on.

Yes indeed, but even if the price of such an ASIC was well over 100 usd it would sell itself easily. Gekkoscience Compac F offers the same kind of performance (approximately) and can be bought for between 250 and 400 usd depending on the reseller and the time.
It doesn't have to be so cheap to be sold IMO.

In my opinion, the real advantage would be to produce ready-to-sell PCBs and offer DIY kits if you want to sell cheaply, but that would limit the customer base even more.
In any case, as OP said, it's not at that stage yet

Quote from: rapsacw

So, should I invest the time (and money) in this for you? Or is this a niche product? I have no idea what the retail price will be in the end, but the pcb hardware and assembly should not be much more than $50, add to that a margin the the sales & production, an included cooling solution (say $5 for the heatsink and another $2 for a fan, $x for 2 small 3D printed clips to mount everything) and that should be it.

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Its too early for resellers, first comes the manufacturing, and I've sniffed enough leaded solder and flux in my life to even attempt doing it myself Wink

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I think the potential user base is pretty big. If the power consumption is so low that you can basically not recognize it on your monthly bill, then it would basically be a free nerd lottery where you can just simply run it forever and hope to hit a block.

Do you have any estimates how much such a device would cost to produce and what it would finally cost to sell so it makes sense for you?

I think if you can have such a device for under 100 USD then there is a good chance that it will catch on.

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Quote from: BitMaxz on June 16, 2023, 08:49:20 AM

Such a nice project I'd like to have them but still it depends on the price of this unit and it depends on the specs like how much power this miner can consume (it looks the same as Compac F that can be consumed around 15w).

Yes, 15W max as that is the maximum power a usb charger can handle @5V. The miner in the screenshot consumes ~13W from the wall, the efficiency of the charger is 87%, so the miner itself uses ~11.3W at ~250GHs.

Quote from: BitMaxz on June 16, 2023, 08:49:20 AM

I like the dashboard the design is very simple and since you said you can connect through wifi and it doesn't need Raspi because the board is Arduino then that's a big advantage compared to Compact F.
So for me, I like it but I don't know if I can afford it that is why like I said it depends on the price of your miner.

You've only seen the polished part of it Wink

The input side is 'rough', to get it working (from 'new') you need to
- Enter your Wifi credentials (the miner turns into an access point if it isn't configured or can't find the configured Wifi, connect to that ap and open page at 192.168.4.1) by entering 'write /wifi.cfg: '
- Enter the miner configuration (best after a reboot so you can connect to it over your newly configured wifi) by entering 'write /sys.cfg: <#asics in series> <#asic parallel> ', all this info is hardware (&revision) dependent.
- Enter the pool configuration by entering 'write /pool.cfg: '
- Enter the asic settings by entering 'write /asic.cfg: '
Then finally after a reboot the miner will run as configured. Other possible commands are;
- r for reboot
- format to format the internal storage (factory reset)
- type to show contents of file
- dir
- c to calibrate the core voltage (this is needed as the actual core voltage will drop when you increase the load by increasing the asic's frequency due to droop in the charger, charger cable and pcb traces)
- f+ & f- to increase or decrease the asic frequency in 5MHz steps
- v+ & v- to increase or decrease the core voltage in 5mV steps
- s to save the current asic settings to /asic.cfg so it will reuse these settings after a reboot

Quote from: BitMaxz on June 16, 2023, 08:49:20 AM

It seems the idea comes from Duino mining from Gunther where you can mine Duco?

Never heard of anything you mentioned here..

Quote from: paid2 on June 16, 2023, 01:26:49 PM

Welcome back on the forum OP!

..
I'd even like to be a reseller in Europe for you if you're interested, if after I've been able to test them everything's OK, I'd be sincerely interested.

I'm currently in the process of learning how to make Bitaxe myself, a DIY sha256 ASIC based on BM1397 created by Skot (who replied to you above) that reminds me a lot of what you're describing. Feel free to check out this Github if you're interested: https://github.com/skot/bitaxe

Don't hesitate to contact me privately if you'd like to chat, and I wish you all the best!

Its too early for resellers, first comes the manufacturing, and I've sniffed enough leaded solder and flux in my life to even attempt doing it myself Wink

Bitaxe is cool, I wish Skott all the best. He started his project roughly at the same time as I did, but I only discovered it 6 month ago (I was too busy developing things to search github, although I did search github before I started working on it). His hardware should be easy to implement in my miner software, all that is needed is modifying the routines to use his dac.

Quote from: Skot on June 16, 2023, 09:00:07 AM

Yes, do it!! The world needs open source Bitcoin mining hardware and firmware! Grin

Well hello there Wink

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Welcome back on the forum OP!

Very interesting project.

Yeah, personally I'd be interested in supporting your project and would happily buy a few units from you, I love letting little ASICs like those (usually from Gekkoscience) run solo.

I'd even like to be a reseller in Europe for you if you're interested, if after I've been able to test them everything's OK, I'd be sincerely interested.

I'm currently in the process of learning how to make Bitaxe myself, a DIY sha256 ASIC based on BM1397 created by Skot (who replied to you above) that reminds me a lot of what you're describing. Feel free to check out this Github if you're interested: https://github.com/skot/bitaxe

Don't hesitate to contact me privately if you'd like to chat, and I wish you all the best!

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Yes, do it!! The world needs open source Bitcoin mining hardware and firmware! Grin

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Such a nice project I'd like to have them but still it depends on the price of this unit and it depends on the specs like how much power this miner can consume (it looks the same as Compac F that can be consumed around 15w).

Quote from: rapsacw on June 16, 2023, 07:57:36 AM

Picture of webinterface of my software https://github.com/rapsacw/Basic-BM1387-miner/blob/main/aSiNine%20ESP%20miner%20v0.01.png

I like the dashboard the design is very simple and since you said you can connect through wifi and it doesn't need Raspi because the board is Arduino then that's a big advantage compared to Compact F.
So for me, I like it but I don't know if I can afford it that is why like I said it depends on the price of your miner.

It seems the idea comes from Duino mining from Gunther where you can mine Duco?

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The big difference is that the Compac F needs a computer attached to it to run as it uses cgminer software that requires hefty hardware to run on. My miners are standalone and require no computer.
Some links to my github;
Picture of webinterface of my software https://github.com/rapsacw/Basic-BM1387-miner/blob/main/aSiNine%20ESP%20miner%20v0.01.png
(this runs on the miner)
Github page to hard&software (to be updated soon, I'm only one person doing ALL the work) https://github.com/rapsacw

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What is the difference between yours and the GekkoScience Compac F?
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/gekkoscience-has-a-new-stickminer-that-does-300gh-5355470

Things like this are and will always be a hobby project for people to play with but there is nothing wrong with making it and trying to sell it.

Just keep in mind, you will have to support it, and deal with issues with them and so on.

But, it still looks like a cool project.
Post image links, since you are a new users they will not show up in the post but people can quote / click on them.

-Dave

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I'm developing a series of standalone miners built around BM1387 & BM1397 asics and an ESP32-C3. I've been working on these for over 1 year now and I think I've got enough knowledge now to make a version that can be mass produced, the question I have now: is anyone interested in such a miner?
The configuration I'm thinking of has the following properties:
- Standalone, only a usb charger with 5V/3A needed and a wireless connection.
- Single BM1397 asic.
- Hash rate of 200GHs upto 250GHs (and more probably).
- Power consumption out of the wall 8-15W (depending on efficiency of the charger and hash rate).
- My own miner software (open source, in beta stage, fully working but lousy UI) based on Arduino libraries that allows manual on the fly voltage and frequency settings.
- totally not worth running on a non-solo pool, but a cheap lottery ticket where you enter the drawing for free every 10 minutes for as long as you live(*)..

I've designed my hardware around parts that are for sale on aliexpress, but for mass production I will have to redesign parts of it using components for sale at mouser.com , and I will need to find a company willing to produce them (a problem as the asics are not sold by any big electronics reseller), and also sell them. Currently I'm thinking of seeedstudio.com, but I haven't contacted them yet to see if they are both willing and capable (sourcing the bm1397's and soldering them on the backside of the pcb).
There is also a open source version with bm1387 asics (that I could also redesign to use mouser parts) that you can built yourself (advanced electronic soldering capabilities/tools required).
I have 6 prototypes running, live stats https://solo.ckpool.org/users/1KgwWwBh7qGtcWJ9ZRNTUbVCR1L2qYkzcy, 3 bm1387 versions (2 with 2 asics, one with 4 asics), and three single bm1397 versions (workernames containing 'test').
I started out designing the miners for personal use and therefor used parts from aliexpress but I'm so satisfied with them (they will run as long as the internet connection is up, and will reconnect in 99.9% of the cases when it is not, the 0.01% is caused by a quirk in the esp software) that *I think* others might be interested in them also.
But it will require another hardware redesign which is not needed for my personal use miners.
So, should I invest the time (and money) in this for you? Or is this a niche product? I have no idea what the retail price will be in the end, but the pcb hardware and assembly should not be much more than $50, add to that a margin the the sales & production, an included cooling solution (say $5 for the heatsink and another $2 for a fan, $x for 2 small 3D printed clips to mount everything) and that should be it.
Comment in this topic if interested, or if you think this is stupid, you won't hurt my feelings as I have already got what I set out to achieve.

(*) I'm not sure if any (solo) pool will support low hash rate miners in the future. Pool operators have to pay for their hardware and connection, and a low hash rate miner costs them as much as a complete mining farm. Maybe CK can answer that.

ps: new forum user with (unknown to me) restrictions, my old user name got lost in 2016)

edit:
I've redesigned the miner to use standard parts, but sadly i'll have to make another one as one of the buck converters from mouser.com is apparently a fake Sad

Anyway, I did some stress testing to see what it can handle and got this https://github.com/rapsacw/aSiNine-ESP-miner/blob/main/ui.png

Topic: Is there interest in a standalone low power miner? (Read 641 times)