Is Vitalik a snake oil salesman or Satoshi 2.0

TPTB_need_war

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Boy wonder and Szaboshi apparently forgot their Computer Science education:

Quote from: TPTB_need_war on February 12, 2016, 10:21:57 AM

Quote from: monsterer on February 12, 2016, 08:23:17 AM

Quote from: TPTB_need_war on February 12, 2016, 07:55:41 AM

monsterer is wrong again. Even within the block there is no way to attain commutativity of ordering. Any particular choice of arbitrary orderings of script executions for a block result may achieve a different result for contracts than another ordering (unless the scripts are invariant to ordering but that basically means the scripts can do nothing). That is the definition of indeterminism.

Perhaps I should have said 'within one script execution within one block'. Block ordering is eventual, just like bitcoin. In ethereum this has scope for more dire consequences than it does with bitcoin; it depends on the application.

Specifically the generative essence distinction is that Bitcoin's UXTO history is a directed acyclic graph, which by definition means it has no recursion (i.e. no cycles).

Has anyone proven that Bitcoin's scripts maintain this property?

Whereas, only perfectly dependently typed programs have bounded recursion and can be proven to halt. It may be possible to model commutative scripts that are 100% dependently typed, but this by no means can open (to composition and open) the block chain state to every script that someone wants to create.

If Vitalik even had a clue about Computer Science, the first thing he would have done is model the scripting in a purely dependently typed language such as Epigram or Coq.

I must admit I hadn't really expended more than 5 minutes (cumulatively) thinking about it until today.

tokeweed

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Life, Love and Laughter...

He is Satoshi 2.0 because Satoshi supports him being the new Satoshi.

sadyas

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Quote from: 50cent_rapper on February 11, 2016, 03:16:26 PM

Quote from: stoat on February 11, 2016, 03:06:25 PM

Satoshi, you mean Nick Szabo. The guy who contributed to the ethereum white paper and owns 500,000ETH

Yes that's right Satoshi Nakamoto is Nick Szabo. The guy who coined the term "smart contracts". The inventor of bitcoin and the major early contributor to the ethereum project.

Just more confirmation that everyone should be getting in to ethereum right now.

Yeap. And the price of Eth is rising cause Satoshi is exchaning his premined 1 mil bitcoins to ethereum at poloniex.

That will take several months to exchange his 1 million bitcoin into Ethereum. The volume there is too small. After he finishs, the price of Ethereum will be $100 or more.

r0ach

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Quote from: TPTB_need_war on February 11, 2016, 02:00:29 PM

In the videos I have watched of him, he appears to live in another world inside his head. He is smart and especially apparently quite smart in math.

This is the first thing I noticed. In videos, he's talking about some kind of supposed Ethereum feature, but his eyes are staring off into the distance with a look of kind of shocking fascination, as if he's constantly viewing a window into another world full of leprechauns. He seems good at multi-tasking by explaining the mundane Ethereum feature without missing a beat, while having his real interest entirely focused on the alternate leprechaun dimension.

TPTB_need_war

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Genius

Quote from: TPTB_need_war on February 12, 2016, 05:29:14 AM

Quote from: enet on February 12, 2016, 04:30:12 AM

Bitcoin implements a [unambiguous via longest chain rule] partial order of transactions and Smart Contracts's need total order. It is not that hard to come up with some models of event ordering [that show that total ordering is required].

This is an interesting post, and shows more the direction, although I don't agree with NS[Nick Szabo] on ethereum.
unenumerated.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-dawn-of-trustworthy-computing.html

This is another essence of my technological point which I have stated previously as follows:

Quote from: TPTB_need_war on January 31, 2016, 09:57:44 AM

Quote from: enet on January 31, 2016, 06:50:10 AM

* computers are electronic elements with billions of components. how does such a machine achieve consistent state? see: Shannon and von Neumann and the early days of computing (maybe even Zuse)

* partitions, blocks, DAG's, .... all this stuff generally confuses the most fundamental notions. after investigating this matter for a very long time, I can assure you that almost nobody understands this.

I can assure you I've understood the point deeply about the impossibility of absolute global consistency in open systems (and a perfectly closed system is useless, i.e. static). Go read my debates with dmbarbour (David Barbour) from circa 2010.

Laymen let me attempt to explain this to you.

Putting Smart Contract data on a global block chain means that as those contracts interact, it is impossible to prove that the order that the contracts are run is commutative and that the contracts will halt.

This is well known because Turing Completeness (the ability to run any logic) requires unbounded recursion. This is the essence of the famous Halting Problem.

All you laymen need to know is that Ethereum and Nick Szabo propose that which is impossible. I told Charles Hoskinson this in Skype when he was contemplating forming Ethereum with Vitalik (I guess before it became a bigger thing with many others involved).

Ethereum responded by inventing gas, so that scripts would halt by failing once their gas is exhausted. This is horrific because it means the state machine is put into an indeterminate state. Indeterminism manifests as errors and chaotic machines that do random actions. On top of that, Vitalik recently admitted in one of the videos I watched that they know Ethereum violates commutativity (and they have no real solution).

WATCH IT BLOW UP FOLKS!

Nick "Satoshi" Szabo has just made another huge blunder by not realizing the above, as enet correctly points out. So please stop telling me Szabo is at Satoshi's level. Not even close.

TPTB_need_war

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Quote from: 50cent_rapper on February 11, 2016, 03:16:26 PM

Quote from: stoat on February 11, 2016, 03:06:25 PM

Satoshi, you mean Nick Szabo. The guy who contributed to the ethereum white paper and owns 500,000ETH

Yes that's right Satoshi Nakamoto is Nick Szabo. The guy who coined the term "smart contracts". The inventor of bitcoin and the major early contributor to the ethereum project.

Just more confirmation that everyone should be getting in to ethereum right now.

Yeap. And the price of Eth is rising cause Satoshi is exchaning his premined 1 mil bitcoins to ethereum at poloniex.

When the n00bs start spreading nonsense to support their arguments... (come on guys realize who you are up against here, you can't get away with nonsense when I am around)

Szabo has denied being Satoshi.

And Szabo says "Centralization is insecure", thus I can now conclude (and this is second time I've seen Szabo make a technical error), that Szabo has no clue that Ethereum's planned Casper won't work and will result in centralization.

50cent_rapper

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Quote from: stoat on February 11, 2016, 03:06:25 PM

Satoshi, you mean Nick Szabo. The guy who contributed to the ethereum white paper and owns 500,000ETH

Yes that's right Satoshi Nakamoto is Nick Szabo. The guy who coined the term "smart contracts". The inventor of bitcoin and the major early contributor to the ethereum project.

Just more confirmation that everyone should be getting in to ethereum right now.

Yeap. And the price of Eth is rising cause Satoshi is exchaning his premined 1 mil bitcoins to ethereum at poloniex.

stoat

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FREEDOM RESERVE

Satoshi, you mean Nick Szabo. The guy who contributed to the ethereum white paper and owns 500,000ETH

Yes that's right Satoshi Nakamoto is Nick Szabo. The guy who coined the term "smart contracts". The inventor of bitcoin and the major early contributor to the ethereum project.

Just more confirmation that everyone should be getting in to ethereum right now.

TPTB_need_war

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Quote from: Redrose on February 11, 2016, 02:14:57 PM

No, I basically think that Satoshi was one person. Until someone has showed me an absolutly evident proof, I won't change my mind.

It is psychologically necessary for you to believe that otherwise your entire life would go into depression. Everyone who believes Satoshi is a hero has already been fooled. You don't want your fantasy of a knight in shining armor to die and the cold, hard reality of this fucked up world to be true.

The odds of Satoshi being one person are extremely small.

As a developer of software, I can assure you that Satoshi got almost everything BIG correct (from the perspective of the goals the DEEP STATE has for Bitcoin). The complexity of such a design makes it very unlikely one guy did that.

TPTB_need_war

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: 50cent_rapper on February 11, 2016, 02:14:02 PM

He is much wiser then Satoshi and his project Etherium is the bitcoin killer.

Yes, and that's why people on here are so butthurt and wanting to bash the project.

Same thing the butthurt Bitcointards said to me in 2013 when I predicted the scalecopalypse that is underway now in Bitcoin. My antagonists from 2013 are now silent as I was proven correct.

Same smell again when I explain the Vitalik is not the god you think he is.

I am more capable than Vitalik in some ways (not in math but in other aspects of software development, strategy, user adoption marketing, etc).

I really suck at putting together a scheme to take $millions from naive speculators. My conscience won't allow me to put the vapor before the ICO.

Redrose

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Quote from: TPTB_need_war on February 11, 2016, 02:06:12 PM

Quote from: Redrose on February 11, 2016, 02:03:05 PM

Since he's not better than Satoshi because this is simply impossible

Because Satoshi wasn't one person:

Quote from: TPTB_need_war on February 08, 2016, 01:26:58 AM

Quote from: smooth on February 07, 2016, 09:08:48 PM

Quote

Again I think this another evidence that Bitcoin was created by the DEEP STATE with evil intentions

Another? As far as I know such an argument is the only evidence.

One guy in his basement created Bitcoin. Roll Eyes

And used clever psychology to cause geeky Libertarian hard money folks to lose their reason and wet their pants by claiming Bitcoin is a better gold because it has 0% debasement (when in fact anyone with a functioning brain stem can see the debasement has been in the double-digits for the duration which Bitcoin can obscure its coming failure). I wrote these observations when I first joined this forum in March 2013.

Inserted edit: He disappeared without a trace, yet the entire world is hunting for him. No mere mortals can do that.

Quote from: TPTB_need_war on February 11, 2016, 08:51:35 AM

Quote from: altcoinUK on February 11, 2016, 08:05:49 AM

Quote from: m4nki on February 11, 2016, 07:32:15 AM

Governments would be pro Bitcoin because everything is being recorded in the blockchain

Correct. That's why Bitcoin is a God given gift to the the government and tax man. That's why there are conspiracy theories - which I don't subscribe to - that Sathosi is an NSA creation.

Non-sequitor. (plz don't be offended)

If Bitcoin is a God given gift to the government, then it does not logically follow that Satoshi wouldn't be a DEEP STATE (global elite/NSA/CIA) operation.

Quote from: altcoinUK on February 11, 2016, 08:05:49 AM

On the other hand, I don't agree with conspiracy theories that government will make Bitcoin big just to have this centralized place for tax collection i.e. intentionally make Bitcoin very big as some theory advocates it. Government don't have to do that - they implement the electronic FIAT system anyway, in Europe very-very quickly so they don't need Bitcoin, the electronic FIAT system is their central store of information. That's why I said if for some miraculous reason BTC get bigger then the government will step in, but not before.

I years ago figured out why the global elite planted Bitcoin.

It undermines the nation-states, central banks, and existing banking systems. They could not accomplish that in a hidden way if they did it top-down as you claim.

(yet another reason that Zcash should take my advice and make sure they focus also on corporate applications of their technology)

The plan all along has been to discredit the existing nation-state system to move towards a world government system.

No, I basically think that Satoshi was one person. Until someone has showed me an absolutly evident proof, I won't change my mind.

50cent_rapper

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He is much wiser then Satoshi and his project Etherium is the bitcoin killer.

Sark

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Well, he is not better than Satoshi, but he is a crypto god - maybe in the lesser pantheon??

TPTB_need_war

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Quote from: Redrose on February 11, 2016, 02:03:05 PM

Since he's not better than Satoshi because this is simply impossible

Because Satoshi wasn't one person:

Quote from: TPTB_need_war on February 08, 2016, 01:26:58 AM

Quote from: smooth on February 07, 2016, 09:08:48 PM

Quote

Again I think this another evidence that Bitcoin was created by the DEEP STATE with evil intentions

Another? As far as I know such an argument is the only evidence.

One guy in his basement created Bitcoin. Roll Eyes

And used clever psychology to cause geeky Libertarian hard money folks to lose their reason and wet their pants by claiming Bitcoin is a better gold because it has 0% debasement (when in fact anyone with a functioning brain stem can see the debasement has been in the double-digits for the duration which Bitcoin can obscure its coming failure). I wrote these observations when I first joined this forum in March 2013.

Inserted edit: He disappeared without a trace, yet the entire world is hunting for him. No mere mortals can do that.

Quote from: TPTB_need_war on February 11, 2016, 08:51:35 AM

Quote from: altcoinUK on February 11, 2016, 08:05:49 AM

Quote from: m4nki on February 11, 2016, 07:32:15 AM

Governments would be pro Bitcoin because everything is being recorded in the blockchain

Correct. That's why Bitcoin is a God given gift to the the government and tax man. That's why there are conspiracy theories - which I don't subscribe to - that Sathosi is an NSA creation.

Non-sequitor. (plz don't be offended)

If Bitcoin is a God given gift to the government, then it does not logically follow that Satoshi wouldn't be a DEEP STATE (global elite/NSA/CIA) operation.

Quote from: altcoinUK on February 11, 2016, 08:05:49 AM

On the other hand, I don't agree with conspiracy theories that government will make Bitcoin big just to have this centralized place for tax collection i.e. intentionally make Bitcoin very big as some theory advocates it. Government don't have to do that - they implement the electronic FIAT system anyway, in Europe very-very quickly so they don't need Bitcoin, the electronic FIAT system is their central store of information. That's why I said if for some miraculous reason BTC get bigger then the government will step in, but not before.

I years ago figured out why the global elite planted Bitcoin.

It undermines the nation-states, central banks, and existing banking systems. They could not accomplish that in a hidden way if they did it top-down as you claim.

(yet another reason that Zcash should take my advice and make sure they focus also on corporate applications of their technology)

The plan all along has been to discredit the existing nation-state system to move towards a world government system.

Redrose

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Since he's not better than Satoshi because this is simply impossible, I voted for the Snake Oil. By the way, could someone explain me what does it mean Tongue

?

TPTB_need_war

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I voted. I am not sure if he is intentionally selling snake oil but alas intentions are probably irrelevant. In the videos I have watched of him, he appears to live in another world inside his head. He is smart and especially apparently quite smart in math.

crypto jerk

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On one side is the view that Vitalik is a crypto God possibly even better then Satoshi. Etherium with it's fancy new age terminology makes noobs wet their pants in anticipation of big wealth.

But on the other side,

There are those who have observed how Etherium concept won't actually work correctly. Plus critical details about the system (which should have been figured out already) are still being hashed around. Which is hardly forward thinking.

Does anyone remember Satoshi wearing one of those trendy hands free mics and putting on a show for investors? ( of course Satoshi isn't also responsible for spending daddys money, thus needing to save face)

Oh Vitalik, will you be remembered as a pump n dump king or just an awkwardly looking rich nerd?

Topic: Is Vitalik a snake oil salesman or Satoshi 2.0 (Read 1202 times)