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Topic: It's Game Over for Civilization, thanks for playing. (Read 276 times)

member
Activity: 448
Merit: 60
imagine me
There is only about 235 watts per square meter hitting our planet, if you go vertical you shadow large ground areas.

There's no free lunch!
There are plants that thrive on partially shaded areas of the ground. Vertical solar farming can be a good method for farmers who wanted to both have plants and electricity.

And oh, I do get free lunch from nature, literally.
legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 1468
...

Growth is what will eventually kill us.

No of course it won't. Excess population in ANY SPECIES is self correcting.

Sure chief.  Can ANY SPECIES read the scripture?

Tell it to Hasidic Jews, Muslims or Hindus.  They don't care what is happening around them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_population_growth

Positive feedback in action until the last drop of potable water.
member
Activity: 266
Merit: 42
The rising tide lifts all boats
Grain crops fail because too much grain is eaten by animals (50+ billion population) that are slaughtered.
Too much is grown, too much water and fertilizer, soil degradation. Producing fertilizer requires a lot of natural gas -> depletion and cavities in the Earth. Growing chow and breeding cattle also consumes energy.
If only we stop subsidies to the meat and milk industry, stop their lobbying, stop their medical bullshit about how eating meat is safe and necessary and "natural" to the species, we will get rid of grain shortages (provided our headcount doesn't grow accordingly)...
legendary
Activity: 2926
Merit: 1386
...

Growth is what will eventually kill us.

No of course it won't. Excess population in ANY SPECIES is self correcting.
legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 1468
I've been following the arctic death spiral and climate change for years. I've read countless material and my interpretation of it is that civilization will collapse during my lifetime.

I give us 12-50 years at the most.

My reasoning, summarized is as follows.

The temperature of the planet is increasing due to CO2 and Methane increases as well as a significant change in albedo (reflectance).

Civilization broadly defined is the ability to grow grain at scale, store it and distribute it according to social status.

Grain crops will fail due to a change in weather patterns, soil depletion and droughts. The consequences of this cannot be understated, civilization will end. Without enough food, there is no reason for anyone to keep their jobs, and not a lot of people will work if their money is worthless.

In fact we're living though the 6th mass extinction, the climate has changed very rapidly and a lot of species are simply running out of habitat. The era we're at right now is the anthropocene. (anthropos meaning human as in "man")

Without enough food and the proper climate, future generations will inherit a planet that is no longer inherently human habitat. Most complex organisms will become extinct. Most humans (if not all) will die of starvation.

I've thought of possible scenarios of how this might go.

The most likely is that the last human starves in a bunker in 2100 or so. In another, the human population is decimated time after time but technology and human ingenuity saves a small number of us, our future is one living in a planet with no wildlife, the only wild organisms surviving being algae microbes and some extremophiles here and there.

We might survive a couple population doubling times, after that, it is not clear how we'll survive on this planet.

Currently, the population will double every ~64 years. The growth rate in 2018 was 1.09%, it is going down which is good.
We need to have the population growth rate close to 0% to get a handle on the environmental impacts.  To achieve that we as humans would have to go through a major shift in behavior, I am not sure this is possible as most people can barely wipe their asses never mind thinking about saving the planet.  Raising awareness might help a little, but in the end, it will not work because humans on average are just too stupid to understand their predicament.

Growth is what will eventually kill us.
legendary
Activity: 2926
Merit: 1386
...
But I would love to see solar farming adopting the vertical farming method. Cheesy
...


There is only about 235 watts per square meter hitting our planet, if you go vertical you shadow large ground areas.

There's no free lunch!
jr. member
Activity: 76
Merit: 1
I agree with everything you said. If we don't start acting now, chances are we won't live past 50 years into the future. What can we do about it? One, try to reverse the damage by addressing environmental issues and coming up with a solution about. Two, if we can't reverse climate change anymore, then we should at least try to find a way we can protect ourselves from it. Finally, if all else fails, maybe it's time we pack our bags and migrate to the digital world and start a new life there. Virtual reality can make this possible.
jr. member
Activity: 105
Merit: 4
This is why we need extremely creative solutions to not only save humanity if we want to stay alive, but find a way to create a decent quality of life and make existence worthwhile.

As crazy as it sounds, I think the only viable solution is to essentially digitize civilization.
legendary
Activity: 2926
Merit: 1386
I've been following the arctic death spiral and climate change for years. I've read countless material and my interpretation of it is that civilization will collapse during my lifetime.

I give us 12-50 years at the most.

My reasoning, summarized is as follows.

The temperature of the planet is increasing due to CO2 and Methane increases as well as a significant change in albedo (reflectance).

Civilization broadly defined is the ability to grow grain at scale, store it and distribute it according to social status.

Grain crops will fail due to a change in weather patterns, soil depletion and droughts. The consequences of this cannot be understated, civilization will end. .....

I bolded your opinion which is not supported by the cited facts (or others). All conclusions which follow are wrong.

You're wrong plain and simple. Even according to the conservative scientific organizations that are in charge of communicating what's happening and therefore cannot simply state the full reality of the situation we're seeing a decline in food productivity due to climate change.

Crops fail when the climate in the areas in which they grow changes.

Do you want to be buried in sources and data? I don't have the time right now (getting ready for a 22+ hour drive) but I will come back and bury you.
.....

Lol...no you will not. We've argued before and although you have made some points, you have never buried me.

Please note that a list of cites is not an argument. You have made no argument on this matter to this point.

It's likely that what you need to do is go back, look at the paragraph where I bolded the conclusion that DOES NOT FOLLOW, and then make a proper scientific assertion that you can then attempt to support or not.

I think you are just looking at all that data and getting depressed about it, frankly; and yes it can have that effect.
hero member
Activity: 1492
Merit: 763
Life is a taxable event
I've been following the arctic death spiral and climate change for years. I've read countless material and my interpretation of it is that civilization will collapse during my lifetime.

I give us 12-50 years at the most.

My reasoning, summarized is as follows.

The temperature of the planet is increasing due to CO2 and Methane increases as well as a significant change in albedo (reflectance).

Civilization broadly defined is the ability to grow grain at scale, store it and distribute it according to social status.

Grain crops will fail due to a change in weather patterns, soil depletion and droughts. The consequences of this cannot be understated, civilization will end. .....

I bolded your opinion which is not supported by the cited facts (or others). All conclusions which follow are wrong.

You're wrong plain and simple. Even according to the conservative scientific organizations that are in charge of communicating what's happening and therefore cannot simply state the full reality of the situation we're seeing a decline in food productivity due to climate change.

Crops fail when the climate in the areas in which they grow changes.

Do you want to be buried in sources and data? I don't have the time right now (getting ready for a 22+ hour drive) but I will come back and bury you.



Gornall J, Betts R, Burke E, et al. Implications of climate change for
agricultural productivity in the early twenty-first century. Philos Trans R Soc
Lond B Biol Sci. 2010;365(1554):2973–2989.


 Lobell DB, Gourdji SM. The influence of climate change on global crop
productivity. Plant Physiol. 2012;160(4):1686–1697.


 Ziska LH, Blumenthal DM, Runion GB, Hunt ER, Diaz-Soltero H. Invasive
species and climate change: An agronomic perspective. Clim Change.
2011;105:13–42.


Long SP, Ainsworth EA, Leakey AD, Morgan PB. Global food insecurity.
treatment of major food crops with elevated carbon dioxide or ozone
under large-scale fully open-air conditions suggests recent models may
have overestimated future yields. Philos Trans R Soc Lond B Biol Sci.
2005;360(1463):2011–2020.


United States Department of Agriculture (USDA). Climate change and
agriculture in the United States: Effects and adaptation. 2013;USDA
Technical Bulletin 1935:1–186.


 Handmer J, Honda Y, Kundzewicz ZW, et al. Changes in impacts of climate
extremes: Human systems and ecosystems. In: Managing the risks of
extreme events and disasters to advance climate change adaptation. A
special report of working groups I and II of the intergovernmental panel on
climate change (IPCC). 2012:
231–290.


 Teixeira EI, Fischer G, van Velthuizen H, Walter C, Ewert F. Global hotspots
of heat stress on agricultural crops due to climate change. Agric For
Meteorol. 2013;170(15):206–215.


 Li YP, Ye W, Wang M, Yan XD. Climate change and drought: A risk
assessment of crop yield impacts. Clim Res. 2009;39:31–46.


 United Nations. Cyclone Sidr United Nations rapid initial assessment report.
2007. http://ochaonline.un.org/News/NaturalDisasters/Bangladesh/
tabid/2707/Default.aspx


 Zemp M, et.al. Global glacier changes: Facts and figures. UNEP world
glacier monitoring service. 2008.


 Kehrwald NM, Thompson LG, Yao TD, et al. Mass loss on Himalayan glacier
endangers water resources. Geophys Res Lett. 2008;35(L22503).
16. Gregory PJ, Johnson SN, Newton AC, Ingram JS. Integrating pests and
pathogens into the climate change/food security debate. J Exp Bot. 2009;
60:2827–2838.

 Hatfield J, Takle G, Grotjahn R, et al. Chapter 6: Agriculture.
In Draft of National climate assessment development. 2013;11 Jan:227–
261. http://ncadac.globalchange.gov/download/NCAJan11-2013-
publicreviewdraft-chap6-agriculture.pdf

 Brown L. World on the edge: How to prevent environmental and economic
collapse. First ed. New York, NY: W.W. Norton & Company, Inc.;
2011:240.


 Food and Agricultural Organization (FAO), Office of the Director,
Agricultural Development Economics Division Economic and Social
Development Department. High level expert forum—How to feed the world
2050. 2009.
member
Activity: 348
Merit: 22
Capitalism is to blame.  This is why we are suffering from pollution and climate change.  CEOs want short term profits and they don't give a fuck about the environment.


GAME OVER
member
Activity: 448
Merit: 60
imagine me
CO2 is no longer a huge problem, IMO. You can plant trees or anything that absorbs CO2, if you don't have the area to plant it, just use CO2 absorbing paint.

Although the youtube video posted by KonstantinosM is somehow disturbing, the possibility of it happening is when every land area of our planet is already populated. And mind you OP, the human's physical heat also contributes to the increase of temperature.

And oh, if you're afraid of people using too much vehicles; there's a country wherein bicycle is much more popular than a car.

Energy security ensures food security.

Energy security ensures water security.

As long as we have energy, we have food, water, and heat.
There are some places around the globe that doesn't rely on energy when it comes to food and water security. There's an ancient method of preserving foods, although it completely changes the taste of food, I can be sure that it's more nutritious than the refrigerated one. Our ancestors also didn't rely on farming machinery, but they've been capable of planting and transporting foods without it.

My father's hometown is a place where you can get spring fresh water, and their farmers never had a problem on water shortage for hundreds or even thousands of years. There is no electricity, no pumps needed to distribute the water around their area and the best part of it, it's free. But the only problem is when you lose connection, you'll be needing to hike the mountain for half of the day.

Vertical farming is the solution to soil degradation.
It's an innovative technology for farming, especially on small areas. But vertical farming is not a complete solution against soil degradation, IMO.

But I would love to see solar farming adopting the vertical farming method. Cheesy

The way they choose solar panels over food, it's kinda annoying.

legendary
Activity: 2926
Merit: 1386
I've been following the arctic death spiral and climate change for years. I've read countless material and my interpretation of it is that civilization will collapse during my lifetime.

I give us 12-50 years at the most.

My reasoning, summarized is as follows.

The temperature of the planet is increasing due to CO2 and Methane increases as well as a significant change in albedo (reflectance).

Civilization broadly defined is the ability to grow grain at scale, store it and distribute it according to social status.

Grain crops will fail due to a change in weather patterns, soil depletion and droughts. The consequences of this cannot be understated, civilization will end. .....

I bolded your opinion which is not supported by the cited facts (or others). All conclusions which follow are wrong.
legendary
Activity: 2926
Merit: 1386
This is a very in-depth subject matter, it never even occurred to me how much oil would go into a solar panel Smiley

Isn't Thorium reactors something which needs to be explored as a better, cleaner and safer energy alternative? I personally don't want the contracts going to china to build them though. but due to the bad press with nuclear reactors I think thorium reactors has taken a back seat...



Thorium based reactors are generation 4 reactors (see molten salt). Currently, the United States uses generation 2 reactors. China's the only nation in the world with generation 3 reactors deployed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_reactor#Advanced_reactors

Putting Rick Perry in charge of the Dept. of Energy was a start. But I wouldn't expect to see actual new nuclear power plants until Trump MAGA 2.
full member
Activity: 574
Merit: 152
This is a very in-depth subject matter, it never even occurred to me how much oil would go into a solar panel Smiley

Isn't Thorium reactors something which needs to be explored as a better, cleaner and safer energy alternative? I personally don't want the contracts going to china to build them though. but due to the bad press with nuclear reactors I think thorium reactors has taken a back seat...



Thorium based reactors are generation 4 reactors (see molten salt). Currently, the United States uses generation 2 reactors. China's the only nation in the world with generation 3 reactors deployed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_reactor#Advanced_reactors
jr. member
Activity: 126
Merit: 3

Seriously though, the population is too high that I think it will be easy if it is even possible to reverse the effects of climate change. Perhaps digital immortality researches could speed up their studies on how we can live virtually than physically. This can drastically minimize our consumption and not totally ruin the planet but continue living, even forever.
copper member
Activity: 224
Merit: 14
This is a very in-depth subject matter, it never even occurred to me how much oil would go into a solar panel Smiley

Isn't Thorium reactors something which needs to be explored as a better, cleaner and safer energy alternative? I personally don't want the contracts going to china to build them though. but due to the bad press with nuclear reactors I think thorium reactors has taken a back seat...

full member
Activity: 574
Merit: 152
TL;DR:

An infinite supply of energy and the capability to turn it into the resources you need at the time is magical thinking. It's nice to believe that we can produce a fusion reactor or enough alternatives to run our civilization from here to a Star Trek age of over-abundance.
But that's just magical thinking at this point in time. Please don't underestimate the convenience of oil energy and all that we take for granted right now.

I don't. I'm saying ensure energy infrastructure. While oil is a convenient portable energy source, our primary backbone is coal here in America. Oil's a frevious resource going forth. It causes more problems than it solves.
Coal's only use is to make iron into steel. Oh, also refined into nanotubes or diamonds. Not for burning.

You know what we really don't need? Those glowly rocks that everyone's afraid of. There's safe meltdown reactors like thorium, which if we had better materials would be viable. Enough power to grow the 25 billion people's food for centuries (estimated? we should run the math together).

However, I don't like burning my stockpiles, I'd rather be building it. So, let me continue on.

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Energy is not free. None of the alternatives (to oil) is a viable replacement for the foreseeable future.
It takes a whole lot of oil to create a solar panel. You could not run civilization on solar panels and wind turbines and Geothermal just yet.

Actually, there was a recent study that said for the United States, science found that it's feasible to provide renewable power entirely reliability using predicted models of environment. However, assuming it's worse than the current models (which were based on 2060), it might be a toss up, depending on the infrastructure. However, I don't think we should be worrying about a single nation's energy security, but look at a global scale.

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World energy  security is way more important.
 Human civilization already uses about half of the products of photosynthesis on a global scale.
Plants are pretty good solar cells, but they don't thrive in areas without water, such as deserts. Thermal or photovoltaic energy harvesting can benefit though.

Quote
If you have the patience this short documentary goes though all potential energy sources and why they are not the solution to our problem, It's from 2012, but it still very much applies today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOMWzjrRiBg

Can you tldr? I avoid youtube. I know it probably summarizes your points, but I think it'd probably make artificially limits the scope.

Quote
Civilization requires a lot more than energy, so a few solar cell farms or wind turbines won't cut it.
To turn energy into food we need a lot of infrastructure. Growing the same food in a few decades will be a lot more difficult than it is today.

Actually, not that much energy. The infrastructure to carry the energy places is expensive.

Here's a quote from the internet somewhere, I think:
Quote
Now, if we cover an area of the Earth 335 kilometers by 335 kilometers with solar panels, even with moderate efficiencies achievable easily today, it will provide more than 17,4 TW power. This area is 43,000 square miles. The Great Saharan Desert in Africa is 3.6 million square miles and is prime for solar power (more than twelve hours per day). That means 1.2% of the Sahara desert is sufficient to cover all of the energy needs of the world in solar energy.

That's a fuckton of power at 10% of the desert. Resource heavy, but luckily... solar cells are made of silicon, which... you know, refined sand...anyway, that's getting a bit off topic.

I did a quick skim and think you mention resource limitations later.

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You say vertical farming, I say that takes a lot of resources as well. We don't have a lack of solar energy or even a lack of carbon dioxide in the air, slightly increased plant growth rates using hydro or Aeroponics in high tech farms can be part of the solution indeed may become a necessity but they still need a lot of resources, none the less of which is insulating materials and the ability to run construction equipment (very energy intensive).
Vertical farming has less water waste. It has better yields. It does take more energy and more resources for initial capital until you start valuing dirt as a resource.

Vertical farming doesn't worry much about pests or disease. It's better monitored than a standard field. Yields are higher too. But it's an early technology that's not perfected. We don't have special seeds that grow under that specific climate condition, they're all geared for traditional mass farming. We haven't really started down that path. But there's hope (MIT Grow Computer). Maybe the future generation will solve the food security through technology.

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Having a source of electricity is useless without a source of water. A source of energy doesn't automatically ensure a viable water supply.
Intense rainfall where the ground loses the capacity to store the water is also useless.

I'm assuming we're on earth, and earth's like 70% water or so. If that changes, welp, might as well hope we have a mar's colony cause an asteroid just knocked the moon into earth...

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Topsoil that takes centuries to accumulate can be used in years. Acquifers that take thousands of years to fill up can be used in decades.
Topsoil is a resource, but not really needed for food production, just the minerals of the plants. Again, I assumed earth...

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I would argue that if all you have is energy you can't necessarily provide everything else.


Example: 100 Gigawatt solar farm in the desert trying to support a settlement of 500 people.

100 gigawatt operating capacity for only 500 people? Neat. Let's assume that it's 100 gigawatt operating capacity balanced out, so it's like really a >100 gigawatt farm, but it puts out only 100 gigawatt a day, or 2400 gigawatt-hour (2.4 terrawatt-hour).

Current market rates are $25 / mwh for industry/bulk energy here in America. Assuming we connected that power to something other than... itself, a grid of sorts, we could easily sell the extra energy, or utilize it for other purposes.

But building infrastructure and stuff. Let's assume have 20% losses in energy along our shitty tin cable to the ocean. We convert salt water using some of that power, and the rest of the power converts it to hydrogen. We either pipe or tank back the hydrogen to use for the heating supply, and portable energy supply for those 500 individuals. The water biproduct after local energy usage could easily be captured and utilized as a local service rather than trying to pump fresh water back.

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Energy is abundant.  You start by pumping water and using it to grow food. The aquifer dries up.
Man, if you give me an example, let me actually answer instead of trying to assume my answers Sad
Energy isn't abundant, need more energy. Need more to convert that dirty water into clean water and hydrogen.

Quote
Let's say that you can desalinate water from the sea. Now you're spending mass amounts of energy to get water transported (without infrastructure) and desalinated (also without infrastructure).
But... my hydrogen infrastructure acts as a rudimentary water delivery network. Along with water conservation techniques, I think my colony could be sustainable. Sad

Rough math says 1 kg of hydrogen = ~16 liters of fresh water. Let's assume this isn't American waste, but we consume only 100 litters per person per day. In reality, that's only burning 6.25 kg of hydrogen per person, per day, which is enough to drive a car about 300 miles. If I remember right, 1 kg of hydrogen takes about 125 kwh of energy to produce. Of course that requires clean water, as far as I know. At the ocean, let's assume it takes 200 kwh (and ~16 liters of sea water) to make 1 kg of hydrogen). So, with our 1,920,000,000 kwh / day, we could make 9,600,000 liters per day. That's enough water for 38,400 average Americans... wtf.

Obviously, if I were doing this, I'd probably convert only absolute requirements required to run infrastructure, and sell the rest off on the grid network. Anything else that couldn't be sold would also be converted (assuming people don't need additional energy during non-peak loads).

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A lot of the materials we use today use oil (plastic bottles, plastic tarps, asphalt roads) if that infrastructure craps out, all those will start breaking down.

With enough energy, these are recyclable resources. We can refine the plastics back into oils. Reform plastics from oils. Capturing them with filtering is another question. Doing it without harming the ecosystem is even the more difficult problem.

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To use transportation with your electricity you generally need batteries (if you're going to be efficient) but to get batteries you need a lot of minerals that you may not have access to (or the ability to create them). You ran out of batteries, you can't grow food without a stable water supply, your crops fail, you starve....Game Over
Fuck batteries. Fuck their energy density. Fuck their resource uses. No way...but wait, where are we in the example? Cause that's not what I'm about. To be fair if we're in the desert, I'm assuming North Africa.

Could always just offer the democratic republican of congo stability while we rape their lands of natural resources. Rich in battery intensive materials. However, I don't think I could fix all their problems with my tiny bit of solar farm, so no way I'm getting those resources without a much larger solar installation, or some more citizens with technologies.

But I don't use batteries, so I don't starve, therefore I win?

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Let's say that you try to make ethanol to run conventional engines. Congratulations, you can't get anywhere close to where oil got us and due to climate change your crop fails, you get no ethanol and you invested a lot of time and human capital.... Game over.
Nope, electric vehicles still. Ethanol -> sugar is bad and a wasteful process, might as well catch that solar directly.

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Let's say that the aquifer is big enough that you can pump water as long as you have electricity. Let's even say that your solar panels don't break down (or that you can somehow replace them).

Solar panels are warrantied for 25 years to be at least 80% efficient. Technically, with solar thermal, I just gotta shine that mirror once in a while. What are my 500 colonist doing? I figured maintaining the farm. There's probably going to be transformers, inverters, all that jazz for the distillation plant.

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The plastics of your greenhouses start breaking down, without a source of oil and the petrochemical industry you can't replace them. The harsh desert reclaims your food production area.... You starve. Game over.

Recycled ocean plastics would work if I were building out of plastics instead of steel and glass. I'm pretty sure I'm still in the game.

---

The only 'game over' would be cascading failures or foreign invasion.
hero member
Activity: 1492
Merit: 763
Life is a taxable event
Energy security ensures food security.

Energy security ensures water security.

As long as we have energy, we have food, water, and heat.

Vertical farming is the solution to soil degradation.


TL;DR:

An infinite supply of energy and the capability to turn it into the resources you need at the time is magical thinking. It's nice to believe that we can produce a fusion reactor or enough alternatives to run our civilization from here to a Star Trek age of over-abundance.
But that's just magical thinking at this point in time. Please don't underestimate the convenience of oil energy and all that we take for granted right now.



Energy is not free. None of the alternatives (to oil) is a viable replacement for the foreseeable future.
It takes a whole lot of oil to create a solar panel. You could not run civilization on solar panels and wind turbines and Geothermal just yet.

 Human civilization already uses about half of the products of photosynthesis on a global scale.


If you have the patience this short documentary goes though all potential energy sources and why they are not the solution to our problem, It's from 2012, but it still very much applies today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOMWzjrRiBg



Civilization requires a lot more than energy, so a few solar cell farms or wind turbines won't cut it.
To turn energy into food we need a lot of infrastructure. Growing the same food in a few decades will be a lot more difficult than it is today.

You say vertical farming, I say that takes a lot of resources as well. We don't have a lack of solar energy or even a lack of carbon dioxide in the air, slightly increased plant growth rates using hydro or Aeroponics in high tech farms can be part of the solution indeed may become a necessity but they still need a lot of resources, none the less of which is insulating materials and the ability to run construction equipment (very energy intensive).
 
Having a source of electricity is useless without a source of water. A source of energy doesn't automatically ensure a viable water supply.
Intense rainfall where the ground loses the capacity to store the water is also useless.

Topsoil that takes centuries to accumulate can be used in years. Acquifers that take thousands of years to fill up can be used in decades.

I would argue that if all you have is energy you can't necessarily provide everything else.


Example: 100 Gigawatt solar farm in the desert trying to support a settlement of 500 people.

Energy is abundant.  You start by pumping water and using it to grow food. The aquifer dries up.

How do you get water?

You could try and get it from the air using your excess energy, but that would be more than 1000 times less efficient than osmosis. Let's say that you can desalinate water from the sea. Now you're spending mass amounts of energy to get water transported (without infrastructure) and desalinated (also without infrastructure).

A lot of the materials we use today use oil (plastic bottles, plastic tarps, asphalt roads) if that infrastructure craps out, all those will start breaking down.

To use transportation with your electricity you generally need batteries (if you're going to be efficient) but to get batteries you need a lot of minerals that you may not have access to (or the ability to create them). You ran out of batteries, you can't grow food without a stable water supply, your crops fail, you starve....Game Over

Let's say that you try to make ethanol to run conventional engines. Congratulations, you can't get anywhere close to where oil got us and due to climate change your crop fails, you get no ethanol and you invested a lot of time and human capital.... Game over.



Let's say that the aquifer is big enough that you can pump water as long as you have electricity. Let's even say that your solar panels don't break down (or that you can somehow replace them).

The plastics of your greenhouses start breaking down, without a source of oil and the petrochemical industry you can't replace them. The harsh desert reclaims your food production area.... You starve. Game over.
full member
Activity: 574
Merit: 152
Energy security ensures food security.

Energy security ensures water security.

As long as we have energy, we have food, water, and heat.

Vertical farming is the solution to soil degradation.
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