Topic: Jack Dorsey wants to decentralize Bitcoin mining with new investment (Read 295 times)

Bitcoin in itself is decentralized, nothing is bad if the mining also becomes decentralized as well, but then, It is important to consider the miners as well, in the end, they are the ones who will be paying huge electricity bills, as well as other expenses that are involved in the process of bitcoin mining.
If decentralizing bitcoin mining is profitable for the miners, then I believe this project will be successful, but then, if it means that the miners wil be mining at a loss, I see no way this project is going to last after launch, but anyways, fingers crossed by the way.

I don't think it is totally a useless idea because it has both advantages and disadvantages. Before now mining pools could withhold the payment of miners for any reason because block reward and transaction fees are collected by mining pools and distributed to individual miners. But Jack Dorsey's mining pool, Ocean will make individual miners receive payments or block rewards directly from Bitcoin without any intermediary mining pool. That's not a bad idea. But Bitcoin is fine without this so-called decentralised Bitcoin mining, we don't even need this service because mining is already decentralised. However decentralising the payment system is not a bad idea, at least miners will receive block rewards faster and more conveniently.

Everyone now wants to associate with Bitcoin because of its recent performance and adoption. Even those who talk down of the Bitcoin project are gradually investing in the sector. This is a good representation of the saying that "success has many friends". Everybody is now talking about Bitcoin to gain popularity or increase traffic. Maybe Dorsey is looking for cheap publicity and he wants to use Bitcoin to gain attention.  

It will only be in a decentralized way, but all other things we be like it supposed to be (like the fee that should be paid to the mining pool will still be paid) but just that the mining reward and the transaction fee reward will not first be earned by the mining pool but be distributed to miners in a decentralized way. Although, how this would be done is what I do not know because the address mining reward is sent to has to be controlled by someone, like the mining pool which will have the private key.

I wish Jack remained the leading figure of Twitter, to be honest. I understand that he's now moving on to new things, but I think they'll be significantly less impactful. Raising millions sounds like a big deal, but is that truly enough for such an ambitious project?
To me, it looks more like a small thing that will provide an alternative for miners, but won't change the overall climate. The idea sounds cool, but I'm just not sure that the scale of the project, considering the budget, is anywhere enough to actually reshape Bitcoin mining.

0% fee for two months is meaningless

250PH out of 500,000ph is 0.05%   or in block terms. for every 2000blocks ocean may solve 1
2000 blocks is a fortnight.. so basically only 4 rewards are fee free

this seems as most important question
is it necessary, and what existing problem will this solve

competition in mining business is certainly a good thing, and decentralized providers should be encouraged to join, but they should find a way to offer better options for existing miners that are joining pools, rather than to seek support just because they have decentralized in name
having 0% commission for 2 months is a good start, but more is needed to have meaningful mining power routed in their direction

Is it necessary though? We need more profitable mining pools, not a new profit-sharing scheme. I don't see how this will solve any of the existing problems, for example, if F2Pool who has 30% hashrate starts censoring transactions [oh wait... they did], or if Marathon suddenly gets a good % and decides to restart their OFAC enforcement program.

They won't get a reward for 2 months . After that who knows .

https://ocean.xyz/about

Decentralized mining pools have existed for a long time. P2pool was an excellent project but in the end people want what is most profitable and not what is best for the network. So I’m not sure how well this project will do, or what similarities it shares with p2pool, but I wish it the best success and hope to learn more about it.

Not sure if it's making any sense to me! The mining pool always gets a percentage of the reward. Is the new mining pool not going to take it? I don't think so.

If the mining pool is not going to keep any percentage of the reward, that will be something new. But if that is not changing, I am not sure what Jack Dorsey is aiming to do with it.

The most fun part is that this pool open as a "weapon" against censorship and they are censoring ordinals etc

ok update

appears they dont want to payout dust to individual miners(onchain and immediately to avoid pool manager custodian centralisation of funds).. they instead now want to avoid the dust by taking the blockreward. locking it up and then using.. wait for it "lightning" .. i am laughing

so miners wont transparently see their rewards on the blockchain and instead the rewards are locked up in jackdorseys channel(s)

half a step forward 21m steps backwards

gotta love the catchy headline
https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/ocean-pool-launch-6-2m-seed-round/
but digging deeper into quotes

who wants to see a coinreward output that no longer says
(ADDRESSES NOT EXACT JUST RANDOM NAMESPACE FOR DEMO)
coinbasereward                   -> bc1qPoolmanager 6.25
                                              opreturn 0
                                              opreturn 0
                                              opreturn 0
and instead says
(ADDRESSES NOT EXACT JUST RANDOM NAMESPACE FOR DEMO)
coinbasereward                   -> bc1qPoolmanager 0.25
                                              opreturn 0
                                              opreturn 0
                                              opreturn 0
                                              bc1qworkerAAA 0.00146484
                                              bc1qworkerAAB 0.00146484
                                              bc1qworkerAAC 0.00146484
                                              bc1qworkerAAD 0.00146484
                                              bc1qworkerAAE 0.00146484
                                              bc1qworkerAAF 0.00146484
                                              bc1qworkerAA0 0.00146484
                                              bc1qworkerAA1 0.00146484
                                              bc1qworkerAA2 0.00146484
                                              bc1qworkerAA3 0.00146484
                                              bc1qworkerAA4 0.00146484
                                              bc1qworkerAA5 0.00146484
                                              bc1qworkerAA6 0.00146484
                                              bc1qworkerAA7 0.00146484
                                              bc1qworkerAA8 0.00146484
                                              bc1qworkerAA9 0.00146484
                                              bc1qworkerABA 0.00146484
                                              bc1qworkerABB 0.00146484
                                              bc1qworkerABC 0.00146484
                                              bc1qworkerABD 0.00146484
                                  [and so on for 4000 outputs]

Ocean mining pool is not a big pool, not belong to biggest mining pool. It was rebranded from Eligius mining pool that is an old pool but never belong to biggest ones.

It can be a good initiative to contribute something for Bitcoin decentralized mining industry but if it is only Ocean mining pool, it will be not enough. Because decentralization, with the term, means about what it is. A single mining pool can not provide decentralization for Bitcoin mining industry.

It can be a good trigger for more mining pools to do the same or to innovate something new and better than what Ocean mining pool is doing. If it becomes a bigger trend, it will help Bitcoin mining industry but now, I see it is not enough effort from Ocean.

its not a great idea..
both "ocean" and ckpool are still pools .. where one manager is the one deciding which transactions do or dont get into a block. its still one manager deciding if he wants to flag support for a protocol upgrade proposal.. the asics still dont have a say in it..
the protocol and block content decisions is still pool centralised and decided by the pool manager.. nothing has changed.. all that changes is how the workers are paid..

analogy
its still a factory producing the same product. all thats changed is users salary method. getting paid per 10 minutes instead of per month for ocean and the guy that made the billionth target product id for the year gets paid all salaries of all workers for being the lucky worker in the production line for CKpool

but in both cases the factory is still managed by the same factory owner who still has control of whats produced

Not only a good idea, it's a brilliant idea, at least for credibility of proof of work consensus mechanism. For a long time i've seen giant centralized pools as a biggest threat to bitcoin.
And centralization of them was undermining the whole idea of centralization, so i am glad that someone is rethinking how we should approach idea of pools.

Only potential problem i see in this is someone will find an exploit and steals one block of rewards. And that's something i can live with. Also as i am not an expert i don't know where the fud will come towards this but
i am prepared to read critique against this with a grain of salt.

Some comments are quite funny. Some people saying that he's doing it for his own profit just don't know what they are saying.

Stop being a hypocrite please, none of us would do anything if we are not seeing profit from it. So it's not bad for him to be looking for profit as well. As long as his invention is something that positively impact the Bitcoin community, then who cares if he's making a profit from it or not? The only thing that should matter to us is whether this decentralized mining will benefit us or not.

This will not achieve anything new. This is like trying to reinvent the wheel when it's not necessary. This will not fix any current issues with the incentives the miners are receiving and will just further complicate things. Also, pools are doing just fine with PPLNS, why introduce something that sounds good on paper but in practice it isn't? Thousands of miners helping solve a block for a pool getting direct dust payouts will, in the long term, make it excessively expensive to spend. This will be 'good' initially but watch as those payments pile up and it will create other problems for the miners.

there's nothing wrong if that's what he wants, but in times like this I don't think it's practical to tell you frankly. Having your own mining pool or mining rigs is only applicable to people capable of availing it.

If I can make a profit in crypto trading I will choose it instead of doing what Jack Dorsey says, I repeat there is nothing wrong with what he wants, but it is not really practical to apply at the moment, especially since we are coming to Bitcoin halving or bull run, I hope he thought of starting it during the bear season, not when we are in a bullish trend.

Useless. Bitcoin mining is decentralized as it is, I don't see any need for it to be "more decentralized" cause the current setup's already working so well for the miners. and I know the miners would agree with me on this one as well. I'm all for innovation and all that stuff but in this case there's nothing to be innovated, and it just feels like Jack's trying to reinvent the wheel when it's already turned for decades without any issues. The introduction of a new mining system into the mixture will just make stuff even more complicated not only for the miners, but for everyone, as the crypto industry's highly dependent on these people for their transactions to go through. So yeah, this is a common Jack Dorsey L for me.

it doesnt cost anything to be a pool manager. all the computational work is just a validation node plus a script that sends a head to asic workers.. its the asic workers that do the main churn and those asics belong to different people in different locations.. so the cost of being a mining pool manager is nothing..

however just starting a pool that does what other pools do is not impressive advert to make people want to use it. so they need to fluffy cloud utopian dream of getting rich incite greed to make asic miner owners to jump over to his pool.. again no big expense on advertising..

its just a fluff piece of advertising trying to get people to jump to his pool. thats it.
practically though users with an asic will end up with dust amounts they cant spend and due to having many utxo's they would have to join together but each having a byte cost that eats into the dust amounts of each utxo. thus when moving their rewards after receiving them in dorseys scheme. the workers are losing XX% of value

the reason asic owners use a pool as a custodian is to wait X blocksolves of earnings to accumulate, for min earnings total worthy of withdrawing

either dorsey knows this and doesnt care about the impact on his future customers.. or he doesnt know this aspect of bitcoin mining economics and doesnt deserve to be a mining pool owner.

im pretty sure dorsey just asked Luke_Jr for any SCHEME that makes a pool look different to sound like its doing something special in the hopes people move to it purely for being different, hoping they dont do the math of their earnings vs spending bytes

Stupid excuse to start a funding project. I'm sure someone else could build this without needing a penny.

The truth about Jack Dorsey is that he has come from the web2 world thinking that he will be web3 genius, but everything he has created resembles web2 in some way, and nothing innovative or special when you look at it from a web3 perspective. He clung on to Bitcoin as it was easiest to comprehend, but he is struggling to innovate. Now he has settled for this somewhat pointless objective to garner investments for something that a group of talented individuals here or elsewhere could probably build themselves if they put their minds to it.

This might serve well for large mining operations in the US or elsewhere, but it does not need investment to be created nor does it need to be a commercialized product. I doubt Dorsey will make it open source, but it very well should be - or even built into the protocol itself.

Honestly, I still don't understand how the distribution of rewards will work well and how investors will get rewards fairly, it still makes me confused. I will continue to follow Jack Dorsey's plans further.

I will definitely put my money into this project because I believe in Jack Dorsey's reputation, he really pays great attention to the development of Bitcoin and its backers.

This is going to be huge but I do not think that it is only Jack that's spear heading this. And it is too early to conclude on it. I think in my estimation that it is necessary and from what I have read, there are many potentials and upside to it. One of the reasons I like it is that it is disruptive. But is this going to in any ensure that we do not see high transaction fees again? In addition, what will happen to the already existing mining pool. Will it be abandoned by the miners? Further explanations would go a long way to help me understand better.

issues:
a. coinbase reward tx would have thousands of outputs for each of the asic 'workers' per pools block
b worker (recipients) will get small dust amount UTXO which to then later spend incurs fees that can take a huge cut per utxo

imagine it you are part of a pool. it is 40exa (10% network) meaning 14 blocks a day
this 40exa is 200,000 asics of 200Thash

of say a reward+fee of 6.5btc. that one asic gets 0.00003250 x14 times a day

if a tx fee rate was just 15sat/byte with a tx lean size of 226byte the fee is 3390
.. and that is your utxo fully spent as fee's

we all know fees are way above 15sat/byte right now and average tx is more then 226bytes..
so its not cost effective or byte efficient to payout to asic workers in every block

This is sensational reporting; using headlines to make a story more catchy to build traffic.

Ocean (the mining pool in question) is not doing anything to directly influence the Bitcoin mining process, what it's doing us at their business level to change how payments are distributed to the individual miners who join their pool. Decentralizing that process, if done correctly, will boost trust and attract miners to join their pool.

This is not necessary to me, we know Jack Dorsey, we know about his reputation and business, he's coming to claim that he's going to offer something he himself is not capable of, what is the decentralization that can comes in with anything that has to do with someone like Jack Dorsey, maybe we shouldn't be too far fetched in being decieved by those that always try to show they are helping whereas the profits is to their own pocket.

Let us make it not long.

It is about the mining pool to be called Ocean that Jack Dorsey has raised funding for to.

After a mining pool mine a block, the mining pool have the reward before paying miners that join their pool. But with Ocean, the sharing of reward is going to be decentralized in a way not the pool that will first have the coins, but the reward will be shared in a decentralized way.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/jack-dorsey-raise-decentralize

But is this necessary? I am thinking it is a good idea, but what about you people. Is it a good ideas?