Topic: Just going to vent to you about how we the people(miners) are getting ripped (Read 4496 times)

When there's blood in the streets, buy.

When everyone else is buying, sell.

People have a hard time separating mining profit/loss and currency speculation profit/loss. If you are mining for profit, do not spend more (in bitcoin) on a miner then you predict it will generate in its life time. Of course you would also need to factor in time value of money, operating costs, ect.

Great post
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1mgh0s/well_despite_all_the_talk_of_never_seeing_a_roi_i/cc91870

[–]historian1111 66 points 14 hours ago
People need to STOP using fiat exchange rates to calculate mining profitability. Doesn't matter if you use USD/EUR/YEN/POUNDS.
Think about what you're actually doing when you buy a mining device. You are buying a machine that does one thing and one thing ONLY, it makes bitcoins. Infact, for all intents and purposes, it only makes a finite amount of bitcoins.
If you are smart, you can calculate how many bitcoins your miner is likely to ever make. If you buy a miner for 100BTC, and it only mines 90BTC, then you have lost 10BTC.
Now heres the trick that manufacturers do to rip off idiots. They have calculated that the miner will only make 90BTC, so instead of plugging it in and running it for a year or so, they try to sell you the miner for 100BTC! Not only do they get 10BTC more, but they get their return right away. (The time value of money is also valuable)
So instead of selling the miner to you at 100BTC, they just say '$10,000' (assuming the exchange rate was $100/btc). This tricks most people into trying to worry about what the future exchange rate is. But its actually irrelevant!
Why? Because with your $10,000 you could buy 100BTC right now on an exchange, instead of buying a miner that will only return 90BTC to you. So, you're effectively paying $10,000/90 = $111 per BTC instead of $100 per BTC. You just got ripped off.
When you buy a miner that does not ROI in BTC terms, you are basically paying a higher exchange rate then you can get today on MTGOX.
Another way to look at is, is imagine that I tell you to send me 100BTC or $10,000, and in return i'll give you 90BTC back. Only an idiot would say "don't worry, even though i got 90BTC back, i'll make up for it when the exchange rate goes up! " You're still missing out on 10BTC that you would have if you just bought on MTGOX!

+1

Do you really believe network difficulty will drop soon? Come on, seriously? We have tons of asics to be soon delivered from KNC and other companies. Tons of ghash/s paid overpriced. I say difficulty will grow even faster than now.

I have some amount of bitcoins, I always look for a good investment but currently in BTC asic mining world there are absolutely NONE ! I'm not some enthusiast to care about network security, I simply want to earn some money when I invest.

Every offer that I analyse is a huge gamble, every offer gives loss in my calculation or barely small profit (with high risk). Even the Bitfury miners with devices delivered according to promises are not sure to get their money back, not mentioning shit like BFL where you recieve unit after a year and you can say goodbye to your roi - unless you find a sucker who will pay double for your order. BFL even doesn't accept refunds lol, take an example from Yifu. He did not deliver on time, he gives full refund. He is a scumbag as well because he sold our chips to Asia resellers like alibaba.com. That was the reason of adelay and turning his chips into not profitable. I was one of his customers, lucky for me I had "red light" moment when I decided to auction my chips and made some profit.

Recently I bought some GPUs to mine altcoins, your advice is good on that. My analysis showed that this is the only shot for now to go on with mining cryptocurrency.

My bitcoins are burning my pocket but I won't give them for overpriced products to greedy asic manufacturers.

Of course I never count on BTC value rise with my calculations because this is retarded. If you want to speculate with BTC value just buy BTC, not a miner. You will earn a lot more if your speculations were right.

I really should ignore Yip-Yip... that way I could laugh every time I see "Yip-yip this user has been ignored'  Kinda like I ignore the little dogs that go yip-yip all the time.

We know what game you are upto areshole .....how are your personal mining operations going

Going to  release any more product today or going to keep the diff low

FTC I can hear the train coming down the track...!!!

One of the more cogent posts I've seen here in months...

http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/


Historical Difficulty Increase
30 Day   122 %
60 Day   331 %
90 Day   600 %

Batch 1 Avalon miners didn't earn that much
http://cointext.com/bitcoin-mining-profitability-an-example/

+1

Speak for yourself. I (the people) was capable of working out that pre-ordering an ASiC with a non-certain delivery date and unknown future difficulty  is an unnecessary risk. I buy coins instead, it's enough of a risk and I'll win big if BTC succeeds. No need to mine, the easy magic money making machine doesn't exist.

Surprised? If they can't even get their math right when trying to lie (or sound smart) they obviously got taken for a ride on the Bitcoin ASIC death hole.

SATOSHI FOREST!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for the shout out.

Jason King
Sean's Outpost
Keeper of the Forest

Indeed, the only time an Avalon could have made 100-200 BTC a day was back in June 2011 or earlier.

Can you elaborate on retail era?

It may not be perfect, but the growth since January has been remarkably steady on an exponential rate: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed.png.  This won't keep up forever, but it will help using that as a guideline to see if it's worth it.  Nobody can predict where difficulty will go, but there is a lot more mining hardware going to come online in the next year.

The funny thing is if the calculator is even close to correct on its estimates then in most cases you can see spending the money now to buy the Bitcoins and holding them is - at the very least - the same as spending the money to buy the hardware to mine.  That is, you will get the same number of coins as you would have mined.  And there is no electricity cost.  And no risking shipping/production delays.

It's up to the individual, of course - but hopefully anyone entering the mining fray will have a good understanding of what they are getting into and not expecting that its just "free money".

As others have pointed out, this is nonsense.

At January first 2013— long before any avalon miners existed regardless of what Chinese conspiracy theories you have— difficulty was 2979636.

At 60GH/s this would have resulted in 10.13 BTC/day, an order of magnitude higher than you claim. By the time any were reported in anyone's hands anywhere the difficulty was 2968775 ... very slightly _lower_, which is again evidence that no one was turning on some big mystery asic farms at the time.

This bit of complete nonsense degrades what is otherwise an OK post, you ought to fix it.

No one saw the network effect from the European Debt crisis and Cypress.  Not even Avalon...if you ask me...it should always be the standard that any bitcoin mining hardware companies should also be willing to accept bitcoin as a form of payment - Avalon saw this no differently.  If BTC had followed a more linear steady growth trend, it would probably have stayed at a lower rate for longer periods of time and there would be less demand for hardware.  I, like a great majority of other users here, got into bitcoin AFTER learning that the price of it could potentially Skyrocket in value,  not before.  


Why is it that every time I keep seeing people complain about not being able to perpetually make heaps and heaps of money simply for processing power - dude its Jurassic Park/Concrete Jungle status.  "Life Finds A Way"  which is why mining kept being pushed off to technology that could increase efficiency to stay above diminishing returns.  


Guys....MINE ALT COINS....seriously....MINE ALT COINS  when diff is too high for you to sit with.  Obviously there is a bit of a gamble here that depends on your belief as to whether or not the price will go up.  If you think it goes up a whole bunch then you should consider holding onto your mined coins a bit longer.


To me, it seems as though the only ones who actually feel the urge to complain, those who are quick to curse this gift of "free money essentially" seem to desire selling btc immediately for local fiat...this was always meant to be an activity that marginally rewards you for protecting the network.  The block reward halving is a way to wean out the reward structure for early adopters.  The thing is that alt-coins can and are sold on exchanges for BTC and can be mined at a much higher rate.  

Do not trick yourself into thinking that a sustainable career path could be made by mining btc and playing the hardware arms race upgrade game.  Hold your mined coins and only sell a small portion at any given time so that you don't lose from any other potential price climbs....conversely, if you really want your investment to pan out better (talking about if you dropped Grands upon grands on ASICS HW or GPU for scryptcoin), then start TELLING YOUR LOCAL MERCHANTS TO ACCEPT CRYPTO!  Keep a few bitcents on a mobile wallet, show them the mobile wallet and explain that is money in your pocket that could be in theirs if they are willing to accept BTC in addition to Cash and Cards.  

SATOSHI FOREST FTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


FWIW I'll leave you with this bit on mining.genesisblock calculator = their calculation doesn't do network retarget adjustment - it does Exponential Curve Rates for Difficulty.  As we all know, asics HW MFG doesnt double month after month, sales do not double month after month, and if more people follow my advice with mining alts- that is hashpower that gradually transitions onto alt-chains as well.  Put it this way, do you buy 1 miner the first month, 2 miners the 2nd, 4 the 3rd month, 8 the 4th month, 16 the 5th month, 32 by six months in???  Can you really see 1 person even being able to manage that level of miners?  I don't...its not realistic.  Well the genesis block calculator seems to think that is absolutely realistic.  Yes its my opinion....no one really knows what to expect within the coming months.

Thank you.

Thanks for this thread.  As miner myself (and BFL customer), its been incredibly frustrating to watch the difficulty skyrocket while listening to excuses from BFL.  At the end of the day, it is money out of my pocket directly.  I may be lucky and earn back what I paid (actually converted cash to BTC to make the purchase) so as long as I recoup the dollar amount I am happy.  At this point I am quitting the mining race, but will continue to mine with the hardware now that I have it.

The real unfortunate thing is the people jumping into the fray now, with the whole "next generation" of ASICs coming up.  The likely proliferation of >500GH  miners within the year will mean that the difficulty will be so high that I will bet anyone receiving ANY hardware past December of this year simply won't recoup their investment (unless they paid cash or cash equivalent and the price increases significantly).

The early gold rush certainly is over.  And your analogy is spot on.   I would expect the hardware prices would have to drop significantly if people actually did the calculation for ROI, but sadly most miners-to-be simply won't.

BTW, the mining calculator at TGB should give a pretty good idea of whether you can expect a ROI or not:
http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/


Cheers

Im not talking about the price. I'm talking about the overall value of btc. For example silkroad sellers love love love to sell their product when the btc value is low because they get more btc and they know the value will eventually go back up. In my opinion avalon waited for the btc price to go down then released the preorders. People had no choice to wait until the value of btc went up to purchase the miners bc their was only a limited amount of preorders allowed. But thats jut my little conspiracy theory lol

I don't agree but you can think what you want!

ps: batch 1-2 was priced in $, $1500. Only batch 3 was priced at 75BTC

well, its a win-win for them.

they sell miners to secure the network for a lot of coins. their value can only go up.

Definitely. They didn't know for sure but that was definitely a thought. Thats why they only accepted bitcoins. I'm talking about for batch 2 and three though. If you go back and look, they always opened preorders for miners when the btc value was low.

So you think Avalon knew in advance that the price would sky-rocket after they sold batch#1-2?

if you read the title, right after I said we the people I put "miners" in para. It just adds emphasis on how bad most of us were ripped. We the miners funded your operation then turn right back around and ripped us..

And another thing about avalon.. avalon always sold their batches when the bitcoin value was cheap so they could get more coins. I observed that happen with batch 2 and three. Smart business decision but wrong to rip us like that. But hey thats all apart of the entrepreneur business I guess

The title we the people is that because this whole post was referring to bitcion miners. I did not say bitcon as a whole. The whole post is about mining. We the people are the miners that paid for them to develop asic technology then ripped us. Never was I referring to we the people as the whole bitcoin industry

Yes, the huge profit that could be made during the ASIC transition shrinked super fast.

People on this forum have been saying since it was created that mining will always trend towards low profits, any times people are making high profits on mining will be short-lived.

I think the title of this thread is misleading. "we the people" and "miners" are not the same thing. Many bitcoiners do not mine at all.

I've made more money reselling my pre-orders and miners than mining (or holding) but it was very risky. Most newcomer don't have a high enough edge to take those risk.

Just because they admitted to doing it doesn't mean that what Avalon did with mining with batch 2 was right.

Myself and a lot of other batch 2 customers whose orders were shipped late will never make back ROI and will likely lose at couple of grand on their batch 2 purchase.

Avalon stole money out of my pocket, it's as simple as that.

Still way better than what BFL has done though.

I paid $1300 (about 125 BTC at the time) for a 60 GH/s miner last October that still hasn't arrived yet...

I've known this for a while but no one listens. Most people played the fools funding BFL's ASIC research and mining operation with YOUR equipment.

I mine solely for fun nowadays. It's nice not having to pay the electricity bill

People seem to think that bitcoins has an egalitarian mission.
It doesn't.
The only thing that it has that could be considered egalitarian, is taking power away from the federal reserve and allowing people to replace fiat with sound money, if they choose.
That's it.

haha yeah I didn't see that edit. But thanks mate. This is just all built up and its time for people to realize. Bitcoin has a very bright future but the greed that comes with btc will have to die down. Its practically killing the coin. People mine mine mine, dump dump dump... doesn't help the value of btc.

It was impossible to mine 100-200BTC per day with 71GH/s in January when Avalon started shipping. For the rest of your post you may have missed my edit on my first post.


Some people win millions playing the lotteries but it doesn't means it's easy money. The reality is quite the opposite actually.

Not really into arguing but I promise you they did. US customers might not have seen it but the people that lived in china did.  Bottom line is newbs shouldn't seek btc just to attempt to get rich. If you dont have an enormous amount of btc from mining in the early age or usd to just blow, its not a smart market to try.

I wish I started mining years earlier ha. I just created this forum because I'm tired of everyone thinking this is a way to get rich. Btc was once a nerdy little hobby but now its like who can mine the most btc to take over and make big bucks. Hey there is nothing wrong with that, thats what an entrepreneur does but the greed that is taking place now is crazy and I hate it.

Before even considering mining btc today first invest and think of another way to add on to it. Such as btc atms, debit cards, more businesses, just a service offered to the btc world. Do that and you will probably make more than you have ever made

No more than 7-8BTC per day in January with 71GH/s Avalon unit and then it went down exponentially since February. The first customer to receive their miner was Jeff Garzik and The Bitcoin Foundation.

when the mainstream of people received batch one miners (the people in china) they were too making well over 100 btc. If you can recall the us customers didn't get their miners until after the chinese holiday bullshit. I watch the forums of owners in china. And saw the chilling images of the miners they had already received

Not true. Early batch#1 will get maybe 400-500BTC max in their lifetime most of the others orders including batch#2 way less than that.

However, I congratulate you for understanding that bitcoin mining is not for everyone and not an easy and safe way to make money.

Well said

in short

the gold rush era has passed

now is the industrial era (manufactureres offering products for currency)

and then is the retail era....

so lets all stop advertising the mining aspect of bitcoin. and re-do the video's concentrating on businesses that can manufacture goods and supply the world the goods without the red tape of multi-currencies licences/taxes for dealing with those countries FIAT.

imigine it.
the brits doing business in america without ever having to set up an american bank or receiving an american dollar.
the yanks doing business in europe without ever having to set up a european bank or receiving an euro.
and so on and so on

Bitcoin is like the California Gold Rush. For those of you that have no idea what that is then here is a brief summary. Gold was found in California, everyone rushes to California, the people that got to it early make tons, the people that developed the tools for mining make tons, and if you're late.... good luck.

Bitcoin mining companies are ripping us. First example is butterfly labs. They had no asic technology whatsoever until WE THE PEOPLE wasted our btc on their preorders. Then they mine with our hardware and just give us this i'm sorry, were working as fast as possible.

Avalon openly admitted to using batch two miners for mining to get more btc to expand their corporation. I give it to them though. I applaud them for dropping their first miner at 1300 dollars. Those people that were lucky enough to get them got over 80-100 btc a day. But now they are back to ripping us. They did preorders for chips. I myself talked to high in asic companies and they say and asic chip is worth 2 cents once made. It cost so much to get the asic chips developed no made. Avalon took thousands upon thousands of dollars from preorders to fund their new chip making then now since the chips are created and they have a unlimited supply to boost their mining farm they can offer refunds of make you continue to wait. WE THE PEOPLE ARE GETTING RIPPED

I know I can vent and vent all I want but that still wont change a thing. I just want people to realize that bitcoin mining isnt for everyone. If you are late to the game, invest in the coin itself not a miner. Hell you never know if that miner will come or not. (BITFURY IS AMAZING. HANDS DOWN. RELEASED PREORERS LESS THAN 5 MONTHS AGO AND ALREADY IS SHIPPING THEIR 400GH/S UNITS. THANK YOU FOR BEING LOYAL TO YOUR CUSTOMERS). But back to what I was saying... Going back to my analogy from earlier. The people that mined btc and made over 60> btc a day and have already broke even can afford to risk 50-100 btc on all these different companies. Thats just play money. The people creating the miners can stay in the game bc they are creating miners. But the people that haven't mined shouldn't attempt to mine if they are looking for profit. If you're like me and just like securing the network and has a fascination with the whole bitcoin concept then great, mine on. But newbs need to know that btc isn't some get rich thing now. the coin is a very very very liquid investment but miners arent.

Dont waste your money helping to fund companies that dont give a rats ass about you. Invest invest invest in the coin if you're trying to make money. Miners are not the way to go. Tired of this.