Key-free physical Bitcoins! | Bitcointalksearch.org

J35st3r

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Quote from: Birdy on June 10, 2013, 06:12:19 AM

Acceptance aside, you would need the same enormous amount of security features to prevent copying the banknote as you have with fiat.

Actually that's pretty much the case with current physical bitcoins. The only thing stopping someone from cloning coins is the risk of discovery via dual-spending. If it starts happening big-time, then trust in physical bitcoin as a day-to-day currency will evaporate (not that its much used as that today, given the 1BTC minimum denominations).

PS Actually that might work as a scam. Sell physical bitcoins cloned from original ones, but one clone only per coin. Wait a few months then cash in all those private keys (less any that have been already used by the recipients). Profit.

Birdy

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Acceptance aside, you would need the same enormous amount of security features to prevent copying the banknote as you have with fiat.

drakahn

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Quote from: bitcats on June 10, 2013, 06:00:57 AM

Quote from: J35st3r on June 10, 2013, 05:46:23 AM

But for this to work you have to trust the issuer to repay the bill in fiat (or better in BTC to your own wallet).

No you dont need that kind of agreement with the issuer. You could make your own keyless bills, load them with the denominated value and pass them to friends (gifts), waiters (tips) etc. Your friends can keep them or pass them on. That way its keeps circulating - like gift coupons or like cash money.

In that regard I could photocopy a hamburger and feed the world...

With no way to do anything with the bitcoins, the paper is worth zero bitcoins.

bitcats

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Quote from: J35st3r on June 10, 2013, 05:46:23 AM

But for this to work you have to trust the issuer to repay the bill in fiat (or better in BTC to your own wallet).

No you dont need that kind of agreement with the issuer. You could make your own keyless bills, load them with the denominated value and pass them to friends (gifts), waiters (tips) etc. Your friends can keep them or pass them on. That way its keeps circulating - like gift coupons or like cash money.

J35st3r

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Quote from: bitcats on June 10, 2013, 05:42:28 AM

Thats how I see it:
Keyfree bitbills could be a great means of payment for the average Joe's and Jane's, and help Bitcoin to become mainstream. As their (bitcoin) value is forever locked, Joe and Jane never have to check any blockchain. They just pass the bill like cash.

But for this to work you have to trust the issuer to repay the bill in fiat (or better in BTC to your own wallet). GBP "I promise to pay the bearer on demand ...". So issuer has to hold the private keys in escrow. Probably could only work if backed by a established trusted institution. A bank? Pah!

PS. Actually this is no different from bearer bonds, just backed by bitcoin.

bitcats

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Thats how I see it:
Keyfree bitbills could be a great means of payment for the average Joe's and Jane's, and help Bitcoin to become mainstream. As their (bitcoin) value is forever locked, Joe and Jane never have to check any blockchain. They just pass the bill like cash (or preferably like coupons).

J35st3r

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Quote from: adamas on June 10, 2013, 05:30:06 AM

Quote from: J35st3r on June 10, 2013, 05:20:25 AM

And what if the issuer cheats and cashes in down the line, or goes bankrupt and the court demands private keys so as to pay creditors.

No court can demand any keys that dont exist.

OK, as I said, I couldn't read the OP in DK. So the issuer is destroying the private keys? Do we trust that to be true? And anyway, thats just like photocopying a $100 bill, burning the original and selling the photocopy. Nuts.

drakahn

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Quote from: adamas on June 10, 2013, 05:30:06 AM

Quote from: J35st3r on June 10, 2013, 05:20:25 AM

And what if the issuer cheats and cashes in down the line, or goes bankrupt and the court demands private keys so as to pay creditors.

No court can demand any keys that dont exist.

Quote

What would the fed (or eurobank) have to say about it? Fed has prosecuted private coin issuers in the past.

I think these bills are to be regarded like coupons, not like banknotes.

You could only regard them as a coupon if there is a way to get the bitcoins, otherwise they are a scam, just a worthless piece of paper with someone elses bitcoin address on it

adamas

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VIS ET LIBERTAS

Quote from: J35st3r on June 10, 2013, 05:20:25 AM

And what if the issuer cheats and cashes in down the line, or goes bankrupt and the court demands private keys so as to pay creditors.

No court can demand any keys that dont exist.

Quote

What would the fed (or eurobank) have to say about it? Fed has prosecuted private coin issuers in the past.

I think these bills are to be regarded like coupons, not like banknotes.

drakahn

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Quote from: adamas on June 10, 2013, 05:21:07 AM

Quote from: drakahn on June 10, 2013, 05:15:37 AM

Quote from: cosmicblue on June 10, 2013, 05:09:35 AM

Quote

So is it impossible to retrieve Bitcoins from the bill?

As I understand it, their nominal value is fixed (unchangable) - just like cash money. That way they cannot be devaluated.

If you do not have the private key they are not your bitcoins. no matter what sort of paper you have

Thats just a point of view: If you receive a 100$ Bill without any key, is it yours or is it not?

A $100 bill is the key to fiat cash, A piece of paper that says "1 bitcoin" with no way to control 1 bitcoin, is worth 0 bitcoins.

adamas

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Quote from: drakahn on June 10, 2013, 05:15:37 AM

Quote from: cosmicblue on June 10, 2013, 05:09:35 AM

As I understand it, their nominal value is fixed (unchangable) - just like cash money. That way they cannot be devaluated.

If you do not have the private key they are not your bitcoins. no matter what sort of paper you have

Thats just a point of view: If you receive a 100$ Bill without any key, is it yours or is it not?

J35st3r

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Hmm, I can't read DK, but I suppose it could work. Issuer loads coin to private key, prints address on bill, so you can check if the coin is still there.

BUT ... Its a horrible trust issue though. Does the issuer destroy the private key (in which case the bill is just fiat), or hold it in safe keeping for redemption? And what if the issuer cheats and cashes in down the line, or goes bankrupt and the court demands private keys so as to pay creditors.

What would the fed (or eurobank) have to say about it? Fed has prosecuted private coin issuers in the past.

drakahn

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Quote from: cosmicblue on June 10, 2013, 05:09:35 AM

Quote

So is it impossible to retrieve Bitcoins from the bill?

As I understand it, their nominal value is fixed (unchangable) - just like cash money. That way they cannot be devaluated.

If you do not have the private key they are not your bitcoins. no matter what sort of paper you have

cosmicblue

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Quote

So is it impossible to retrieve Bitcoins from the bill?

As I understand it, their nominal value is fixed (unchangable) - just like cash money. That way they cannot be devaluated.

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Quote from: b!z on June 10, 2013, 05:00:37 AM

So is it impossible to retrieve Bitcoins from the bill?

Yeah, LOL.

drakahn

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Can't find anything on bitbills about key free bitbills...

b!z

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So is it impossible to retrieve Bitcoins from the bill?

cosmicblue

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Seen today on Ebid: http://dk.ebid.net/for-sale/1-awesome-brand-new-bitnote-bitbill-107764070.htm
I like this concept of keyfree coins and bills - its an easy way to pass bitcoins in daily life.
Physical coins/bills with a priv key can be unfunded by anybody knowing the key, what makes them worthless - and the "wallet-keys-blockchain" system is much too complicated for the average Joe.
Keyfree bills could be circulated just like cash money - e.g. for tips or gifts - as their nominal value is fixed forever.

Topic: Key-free physical Bitcoins! (Read 824 times)