Topic: koincik, vycl87 alt accounts - self vouching/merit/trust/bounty abuse (Read 1269 times)

This is very similar to the things that happen with the "pool manager" thing in the case of mhanbostanci. With actions like using a ledger to manage addresses for different people, you are handicapping those people instead of teaching them to actually use bitcoin. It is trivial for anyone to use a wallet of their own if they have an android phone and they are capable of posting on the forum. To avoid the kind of situation that has presented itself here, we must educate ourselves and community about bitcoin and not just spread information about the Alt-coins for the next pump and dump.

I have nothing against the Alts per se but this has been the case with lot of locals in the beginning. Even the merited posts are often about the next Alt-coin with multiple people hoping for a pump. Unfortunately, this only leads to the newbies losing money while the traders, exchanges and telegram pump groups benefit. They must learn to identify scams from non-scams. The best thing would be for the community to grow and put its trust on Bitcoin first. Play with Alts if you like but do not make bounty hunting and Alts your endgame. All of these problems will disappear. Everyone would love to see Turkish local be another bastion of bitcoin, not a battleground of people hurt by scammy alts.

Let me see if I got this right.

You asked vycl87 to buy you FRM tokens at Bitmax and then he gave you his private key and then you sent btc to his Bitmax's address?

Yeah, makes sense.

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I've just found topic where someone accused account koincik for merit abuse. Lol, 4 merit for post #623 and 2 merits for post #2746.

I explained in Turkish what LoyceV is trying to say.

See this example:
If Lauda sends you a payment, their address is on the left and your address is on the right. This doesn't mean addresses left and right belong to the same wallet.
If Lauda's address and your address are both on the left, it gets interesting

There is one thing I do not understand: we all have btc addresses in their profile. For example, if Lauda sends me 10 satoshi ... does that mean I am a alt-account of Lauda?
Another example: I bought a laptop from someone, sent btc. Is it forbidden?
If every transfer will be suspicious, how will Bitcoin be the currency?

EDIT: I didn't understand much but it's nice if the transactions are distinguished!
Thanks LoyceV and Lanychromose

As promised, I went trough the evidence today. I tend to believe that the OP found the connection between the addresses which of course is enough to see the connection, also confirmed.
I also read the explanation of the accused ones which wasn't presented until now.
People always deserves an explanation you have to see the both sides of the medal.
Note that when dealing with such cases I don't take in consideration the nationality nor race of the accused ones. Lately there was a lot of drama involving some of the users from the Turkish community engaging circles of trust and merit abuse and after my quick look at the accursed trust page i though that it's again a part of the same circle.
Anyway,all the collected facts leaded to me ~ both users.

Yes, it is unusual for many of you and I can understand this. There have been people who have sent bounty tokens to each other many times before. In particular, as vycl87 said, the vast majority of these were members of the bountyhive. Extremely unreliable exchanges wanted membership to be able to cash out some tokens we won at that time. Some of them were also requesting KYC. For this, we have had such transactions between us before and many times.

As for the Bitcoin issue, I did this process. A membership to Bitmax was required to purchase FRM tokens and I did not have it. I asked him to buy FRM tokens because he used Bitmax on vycl87. And he said that he would buy the same in himself and made a transaction. I have made these transactions by transferring them over my Ledger. And yes, since vycl87 will not use that wallet again, I was able to do this. As a result, FRM has made 2x since then and we both made money from that transaction.

As for the support issue, I support every Turkish member who applies for merit source. Because, as we can see here, I think there are people who try to keep us in any situation by taking a racist approach. And we have a lot of Turkish friends who have both ideas on this subject. There are many members who prove this with their insults here, as you all know ...

Now that we've given them a bunch of excuses to use I'm sure we'll find out there was a very solid reason to import the private keys or whatever. The fact that the user chose to completely ignore this (the more solid) part of the evidence is quite telling.

There is no chance to prove anything conclusively here but there is enough evidence and enough bullshit in this thread to make certain possibilities far more likely than others. If we're looking for absolute proof then we need to beg theymos for KYC and DNA tests.

Nobody in their right mind would do it like that, Occam's razor: Therefore, they are alts.

This is an interesting question that I don't think we've ever tried to tackle here. My answer would be "no, it doesn't." All it concludes is that one private key was manually imported and it could still belong to the same person as the HD wallet. How often do people actually share their private keys with one another, anyway?

I think it is a context-dependent problem.

Let's say the only piece of evidence linking the two accounts was a single transaction from 2 addresses belonging to different members of the forum, and an xpub key reveals only one of two sending addresses involved in a transaction. I think the transaction itself still renders it likely that the 2 addresses belong to the same person, though a bit less conclusive as there are no other connections between the two accounts.

In this scenario, with the addition of the Ethereum blockchain evidence, I'd say the chances of the two accounts belonging to the same person go up dramatically, making it very likely that they are the same person.

If anybody is wondering, yes there is an xpub checker and it does work.

This discussion has given multiple pointers to @vycl87 to explain what happened. He can simply explain how that transaction happened where funds from both addresses belonging to two different persons have been transferred to a common address. If vycl87 had explained the technical details behind it, that alone would make him technically worthy enough to be a merit source. The most likely scenario is that they generated two addresses from the same HD wallet. @vycl87 gave it to @koincik to use. (paying off a loan or whatever).

Though in that case, there is no reliable wa for them to prove that they are different people. There have been such cases in the past when people just post same addresses and find nothing wrong in it when they do it. Is there any bounty rule in the Altcoin sections that every user should use their own wallet and not share addresses? Catching alt-accounts is going to get harder still because these people are just gonna learn from these mistakes. They probably feel that it is only fair if they can operate multiple accounts without getting caught. Like Polar91 said in his parting message. This truly feels like a problem with no solution. Vinny Lingham was going to do something about this identity thing with Civic, yet like so much else, it is just another WIP.

So if either one of those users can present an xpub that leads to only one of the 2 addresses, does that justify reasonable doubt from being the same person, and make it likely one of the private keys was manually imported?

Note:

I don't know with 100% certainty. I only know the wallet is most likely a HD wallet as that is what

1) readily allows for the type of transaction in question to take place
2) is used by the most common wallet providers where one retains control of their private key (Electrum, Mycelium, Coinomi, blockchain.com, Exodus, etc).

Even if entrusted with somebody's key, you would not import it into your own wallet and intentionally merge it with your coins while you are safe-keeping it. It would just be a made up lie.

That is correct.

I've been entrusted with private keys on multiple occasions. I can also imagine someone uses someone else's addy to join a certain campaign, for instance because he owes him money, or because he's not interested in weird "tokens".
It's all possible, just not very likely.


I think you've missed my point: how do you know the wallet is HD?
Related:
I know about xpub (but never memorized the exact details): as far as I know, it's not possible to know addresses are derived from the same xpub unless you know xpub, right?

The chance that they gave each other the private key at the same time is near zero. The chance that one gave the private key to the other to create this transaction is near zero as it makes zero sense to do so (each could have made their own sending the same amount to the same address).
The chance that they managed to construct this transaction without sharing private keys, i.e. constructing partially signed transactions and exchanging them and making them work is zero. They do not have 1/10th of the brainpower nor knowledge to do this.

Not necessarily, but this is not coinjoin. A coinjoin is not a m to 1 transaction, it is a m to n transaction.

Wasabi coinjoin is always bech32 and always the same amounts as outputs and many more participants. This definitely has nothing to do with Wasabi.

No. Pseudorandom at best. Read about derivation paths in HD wallets in detail. You can use the xpub to deterministically derive the children. HD stands for hierarchical deterministic for a reason.

I read up on how Wallet Explorer works (it's a lot simpler than I thought) and I have to retract my use of the word "indeed" -- its just by far the most probable outcome.

If it were a CoinJoin-type transaction the amounts wouldn't be going straight to the same Binance address. Additionally, many CoinJoin transactions (I think they are Wasabi wallet transactions) get captured as being part of this wallet.

In the very off chance that its not the same HD wallet, I just don't understand why "different users" would entrust each other with their private keys unless they were very close, or more likely, the same person.

If the two users were cheating the same bounty or sig campaign then I would say its clear cut abuse, but in this instance they were enrolled in 2 different campaigns.

Just recapping the Ethereum address exchanges:

- both addresses sent Pindex (PDI) tokens to the same LAToken address
- both addresses sent Blockmason (BLINK) tokens to the same Binance address
- one address sent bitzon (BTZ) to the other

If any other account was doing this, they would be marked as a bounty cheater.

Additionally, the whole merit exchange thing is not great, and including each other in trust lists is quite bad.

I'm not going to take any action on these accounts but I definitely don't think they should be a merit source.

Question: how do you know the bold part?
My assumption was the addresses were random. As an example: say you have a wallet filled with small inputs (0.00027 BTC, 0.0003 BTC, and more like this address). Fees are high, and your wallet doesn't allow you to set a low fee. You give the private key for the address to a friend (don't do that!), and he consolidates your small inputs together with his own.

Another scenario would be when someone gets their hands on a compromised private key, although it's more likely to instantly sweep those.

It's all not very likely to happen though, but can be added to this list:

CoinJoin (not in this case obviously but in general).

Yes, you're welcome, shitpuppets of all kinds - I just gave you a new word to use in addition to mother/father/sibling/cousin/nephew/uncle/cat/dog/goat/investment management/telegram group.

They would either have to:

- be in very close proximity to one another, or
- share login credentials for a HD wallet service like blockchain.com.

Either way, it doesn't make sense that someone wouldn't just create their own wallet.


Just out of a desire to be more educated on the subject, I'd like to understand how that could happen... In this case the 2 addresses are indeed part of the same HD wallet -- it seems highly likely they are both owned by the same person.

I have to ask...

How two random individuals use the same wallet for signature payment?

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@YOSHIE I didn't check all details, but there is possibility that someone used this user's telegram (and telegrams from other users) to abuse various airdrops, it happens all the time with newbie accounts in altcoin section, if you search for more accounts you might connect half forum, just saying...

That transaction between vycl87 and koincik would be fun to explore for the resident scam-hunters who just joined this thread. Here's some novice interpretation from me. In this single transaction: 55ef0fcbfb5f9c513a58b22639b3157c13b7a6254cf23a1b9830ee94149c8320, both koincik and vycl transferred all their deposits from the Bitvest and 777 campaign to a common address 19BX2tyEkUgcCL1mU8KtipgV6rbwSzb4C2

This is an interesting address as it also received vycl87's transfers from his signature earnings in this transaction.


From what we have heard in the past, I am waiting for the information that how this address with some 5+ BTC transferred is a "Cooperative trust" that all professors, students and cousins are using to avoid fees. Because you see, they are all so very poor that they cannot have their own wallets. They need to lend addresses from their professor uncle to "work hard" on the forum. /s


So much for all these "trustworthy and helpful" members giving each other positive feedbacks without references. I really do want to hear the story involving telegram groups, common addresses, bountyhive etc etc all using the same address to avoid fees. If they tell the truth, it may still be believable. Yet, I am pretty sure they will start crying about "You don't want us to earn". There is enough evidence of some hanky-panky here. Lets for once, hear the truth like Polar91 did.

Big thanks to @YOSHIE and @Coolcryptovator. @marlboroza has been alone on his Mission to Istanbul for sometime. Glad to have you guys.  With the pros in town, i rest assured that you will find the connections sooner or later. Watch out for deletion of posts and decrease in post count from amongst the Turkish clique as well as all the multiple newbie accounts they have been used and abandoned over years by these "trustworthy circle" of "helpful people".

EDIT: I didn't see the post from LoyceV earlier. So could this mean that vycl87 is just the receiver of all these transactions?? Still, the connection between koincik and vycl87 is hard to miss. The one linking earnings from 777 and BitVest campaigns. Waiting for vycl87 to explain the real story.

That's quite convincing.

I do believe many "bounty users" operate this way, but I also believe many "professional bounty hunters" use many accounts. The math is quite simple: more accounts means more money.

That being said, I can think of some scenarios in which coins from different users end up in the same transaction. I've considered starting a "dust claiming service" at some point (but instead made this). I've also helped a few people exchange some altcoins in the past, which means they ended up on my deposit addy on an exchange. And if you look deep enough into Forkcoins, you might find "a connection" that shouldn't be there too.
Those scenarios are quite unlikely though, but we can't exclude it for the full 100%.

Ok, no problem....!
Question, how telegram is used by others, in the past by @manuyoul, while @manuyoul has been blocked, and that telegram is still being used by you today.

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Previously I had to have permission from @marlboroza, because this is own moderation thread.

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@koincik & @ vycl87, has another connected Alt account and is also a full member ranking.
There are about 7 other accounts owned by them.

I have a very valid proof between @koincik & @ vycl87 connected, they are indeed Alt, no doubt.


[ archive ]

Pay close attention, the telegram used by @vycl87, is also used by an account named @manuyoul.

Accounts Connected:

1. manuyoul (Archived)

Proof:


[ archive ]

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Now also pay close attention to the ETH address and telegram used by @manuyoul.


[ archive ]

Accounts Connected:

2. flntyey
3. brainnnnn
4. exet22050
5. evan75
6. nata9314
7. julia220

Proof:


[ archive ]


[ archive ]


[ archive ]


[ archive ]


[ archive ]


[ archive ]

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Miscellaneous:

So there is no doubt between @koincik & @ vycl87, the owner is one person who manages it.

Note the address used by them @koincik & @vycl87 to send Btz coins in 2019, transactions.


[ archive ]


[ archive ]

TX: https://ethplorer.io/tx/0xaa59e55eb6060c52dc9c6dc41959b91ed3f97f13578e0228f3fe08d4c32549ae

Proof of @koincik & @ vycl87 conducting transactions.
Very clearly they have an Alt relationship.

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vycl987
Note: if you want, I can post dozens of your Alt accounts that have been blocked and active here.

The new members are scared to come forward because of the very jingoistic tone used about "Turk vs Non-Turk" in any argument.
See how they ostracized @mindrust when he called out untrustworthy behavior there. I went to the local section to have a conversation but the same clique joined in there chorus about "Global Gang". I think a lot of confusion also arose due to Vispilio selectively deleting my replies to some members like @Bthd i was talking to. I just got tired of explaining myself. Maybe I'll try again by opening an unmoderated topic there. The language barrier is also an issue.

The stakes involved are pretty huge and the old members don't want to let go off the way they are running things there. I think there needs to be an introspection amongst the Turkish members themselves. Deep down they know that they have colluded negatively and there is enough evidence from the past. Over time, some members may evolve who can stand for ideals and fairness of opportunity to everyone. Right now, it seems like they are just trying to gain as much control as possible over merit-farming and Trust circles.
They need introspection and a fair set of ideals to follow within the community. The Indonesian and Fillipino locals are great examples. While not perfect, they evolved there own mechanism and common understanding to not support spamming or account farming just for the money. It is simply unfair when a group colludes to take away opportunities from so many others. Cheaters like Polar91 ended up being despised. Theymos has said once that he is happy that the forum allows people to earn. Yet, it is against this basic spirit when "oversmart" individuals or groups steal opportunities from others. Only the Turks themselves can make things right. People like us can only do so much in expressing our disbelief, anger and trying to communicate using Google translate.

Well, I can't see any brief explanation about this post which was convinced me to agree with connected account I wasn't convinced by main post. Why both of you guys had been using same wallet if really you are not handling both accounts?

You made a transaction at 2020-01-17 13:34 from both address with single transaction hash 55ef0fcbfb5f9c513a58b22639b3157c13b7a6254cf23a1b9830ee94149c8320. Doesn't it means both account and address controlled by you?

A valid explanation expected from you.

It's true I sent him ethereum to pick up the frm.We then cancelled the operation and sent the ethereums back to me.

Be chill guys I am here now and let me explain.

I knew that I would be under such an attack when I applied. But sorry this time you couldn't catch any fish.

@koincik and I have been meeting since the bountyhive platform. At that time, we worked together on the bounty there. And we had mutual transactions in this way in order not to perform KYC transactions of some exchanges. You can find dozens of linked accounts on Bountyhive that operate like this.

here is the Telegram channel that provides our connection;
There are 400 people on the channel right now. And you can often find connections between these people's wallets.

[Img]https://i.imgur.com/6e6kdf0.jpg[/ img]

I also work as a Turkish community manager on behalf of the Ferrum Network project. Not only @koincik, but many of our Turkish friends also sent me BTC, ETH to buy FRM tokens for them.

There are a number of things to understand. From the merit distributions to wallet movements, many things have been examined in the title opened about me. Fortunately, it was made so that I had the opportunity to explain that the things done in the past were not wrong. So that he won't come across again later. Since I have used 2 different ETH addresses for years, I am sure that you can find other suspicious things as a result of your research. But the purpose of doing it this way is to be transparent as much as possible. There is no sub-account or merit abusing as mentioned above. As it should be, I sent merit the topics and comments that I think it deserves, and I will continue the same after that.

I appreciate your research, but as someone who is the father of the new twin boy, I do not have time to manage more than one account.
Best regards...

It's all right. This is not the first sockpuppeting sleazeball to apply for a merit source position, and some of them got it so the chances are good.

Nothing to see here, koincik just found out his 25th cousin, twice removed vycl87 is using the forum so he took away his account temporarily and turned him into his student. Or was it the reverse?

Yep, and this is not surprising behavior coming from that little clique.  As I've expressed before, I'm all for local board merit sources, but it seems like the Turkish section has placed massive importance on having at least one representative who's a merit source, to the point where it appears suspicious to me as to why.  I'm definitely not saying the Turkish section shouldn't have a merit source, but I do question whether it should be from any of the current pool of applicants (and I'm only familiar with two so far, wolwoo and vycl87).  I get the strong feeling that there would be a ton of abuse.

Edit:
No doubt there are, but there's a very loud clique (of which you are a part) which hopefully doesn't represent the majority of the Turkish section. 

Which telegram bounty does this:

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I don't know what to think about that board, I noticed some good members there and some bad as well and it seems to me that bad members are making lots of noise while good members choose not to interfere for unknown reason  

I did not fully understand the incident marlboroza
@vycl87 led bounty on the telegram. These transfers maybe related to it. He was sent 50 cartesi tokens recently me...it's 1.5 usd  
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Edit: I don't know, I just guessed. He's not online right now, I'm sure it has an answer. Be patient please

Better proof of connection:

(http://archive.is/s81VC#selection-5745.9-5745.43)

(http://archive.is/velW0#selection-7169.9-7169.43)

Address are part of wallet https://www.walletexplorer.com/wallet/05bb128ac18df25f/addresses which contains only 2 addresses:

Accounts connected: koincik, vycl87

Account koincik used this address 0x81e1decD05FA7020a4206cbc02F6e37792c7e948

Account vycl87 used this addy's 0xf7276ba841ef4fb44a8047216243fd507c329927

This seems to be LAtoken's deposit address https://etherscan.io/address/0x54d8b96f5084ff3344b3a12f238b59e1d3089f83#tokentxns, it has 2 transactions within 15 minutes from addresses mentioned above:



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This seems to be Binance's deposit address https://etherscan.io/address/0x4aece605a3599459167c2e762ed0f8239d1c384e#tokentxns, it has few transactions from addys mentioned above:



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One token transaction here https://etherscan.io/tokentxns?a=0x81e1decD05FA7020a4206cbc02F6e37792c7e948&ps=100&p=1



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Some similarities in early days:





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Merit transactions between accounts (source: https://bpip.org/profile.aspx?id=1213661):



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vycl87's trust network (source http://loyce.club/trust/2020-05-30_Sat_12.05h/1213661.html):




koincik's trust network (source http://loyce.club/trust/2020-05-30_Sat_12.05h/1327134.html):



(other marked accounts are mentioned here, here, well, here but I didn't post my findings.)

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vycl87's trust page https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=1213661:



There is 6 positive feedback sent by this account, it is strange not to see "trading" feedback between accounts mentioned in topic, as there are several transactions between them.

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In vycl87's merit source application topic account koincik posted this:


"One of the most active and knowledgeable users" seems forget that they made some "trades" with OP.