Topic: Launched the First Bitcoin Wallet for KaiOS-powered Feature Phones! 🚀 (Read 177 times)

Just wanted to add a question.
Why not implement the Bitcoin Lightning Network?
If the focus is on speed and low cost then the Bitcoin Lightning Network is the most appropriate choice.

Reading briefly about the stored Wallet in KaiOS, currently only supports the Bitcoin and Polygon Networks and over time it will be added to other networks.
The addition of SegWit and Taproot addresses is also one of the things that are quite important, as asked by @ETFbitcoin

But what makes me ask about this Sorted Wallet is that it does not have a Seed Phrase / Recovery phrase and it can be said that this Sorted wallet is a type of Custodial wallet. We don't have full control over the assets we have.


Remember the old saying "Not Your Keys Not Your Coins". Even though the Wallet is well managed and the private keys are kept in a safe place till the user does not have full control.

Will not use optional wallets such as electrum or other non-custodial wallets?

KaiOS is indeed made for Smart Feature Phones at an affordable price, with some of the latest features like this and a price that may also be affordable, it is quite worth-it. But every user has their own decisions and needs.

Just to answer Point 3:

Segwit support for the Wallet is on our short-term roadmap. There are no concrete plans for Taproot as it technical complexity still being reviewed.
If it will be technically possible, we'd implement it with Segwit.

Thanks!

Thanks for the response, we appreciate it! While the Reddit posts may not have appeared engaging, we agree that it was challenging to generate engagement, even with a $50 reward.

However, aside from those who posted in the threads, other people did DM us. Additionally, those who participated introduced us to users in the target markets, and we received feedback from them as well. This involved speaking with them on the phone and walking them through the app. We also spoke with a number of KaiOS developers about their experience implementing features in different apps and how users respond to different levels of complexity. Finally, we spoke with a number of aid agencies, NGOs, and charities that operate in Africa and offer tech solutions, and we received their feedback.

In our opinion, we reached out sufficiently to those in our target groups and did as much as we could to come to a reasonable decision. We understand that it may not be to everyone's taste, but on balance, taking all the feedback and options into account, we felt it was the right way to go.

We really appreciate your engagement and it has certainly got us thinking about how we can improve in the future. Thanks again!

I can understand that you are aiming at a different user market in sub-Saharan Africa where people live very different lives from us in the West. Your explanation about them not having the means to purchase phones, laptops, and many other things is ok.

But I don't understand what those reddit links are supposed to show. They lead to threads where you look for someone to test your app and no one seemed interested to do it. You said that user feedback led you to create a custodial service because that's what your users want, but we don't see that from those threads. Another thing. How would you even discuss that and get feedback from the poorest of people living without electronic devices, internet, even electricity in the areas you are targeting? 

1. So the latest version of KaiOS is 3.0 but 3.0 is only available on KaiOs phones sold in North America, as far we understand it. The vast majority of KaiOS phones in existence run 2.5 - 2.5.4. Version 2.5 being the last major release. For context you can see this post about WhatsApp - https://www.reddit.com/r/KaiOS/comments/rt07eu/kaios_30_whatsapp_compatibility/ and https://www.kaiostech.com/help-center/whatsapp-on-kaios/. So we may develop the app for 3.0 depending on user demand but 99% of target users will be running 2.5.4. Hope that answers that question.

2. Yes, I spoke about this in a post above.

3. I think so but checking with tech team and will get back to you when I have confirmation.

Thanks!

Sorry I haven't figured out how to quote properly in the formatting so apologies.


So Sors Digital Assets is our Irish Company that is registered with the Central Bank of Ireland as you point out but the KaiOs app is released by Sors Technology Limited, a Hong Kong company that is not regulated so Wallet Co is not regulated or falls under any VASP legislation.

There will be no KYC on the wallet, it's simply not possible with the user base, we're dealing with people here who may not have any documents. In some sense that is the problem we are trying to solve, part of our roadmap is to be able to offer users a way to use their transaction records as a way to build a financial history and then in theory in the future be able to access micro loans etc and their history using the wallet will allow them to do this. Although we are some ways away from this.

So no KYC on the wallet functions, that means create/send/receive. In future we may add additional features internally or with partners, i.e the ability to turn phone credit into bitcoin as a means to on and off ramp or getting a debit card and those services may require KYC as dictated by local regulations but that will clearly be an opt-in for users.  

Thanks!

https://www.reddit.com/r/KaiOS/comments/we0e10/looking_for_5_people_who_can_help_us_test_a/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
https://www.reddit.com/r/KaiOS/comments/wixdw6/repost_hi_guys_reposting_this_again_here_we_are/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

Plus some other users who were outside of the Reddit reach out whom we got connected to also. The decision for non-custodial was based on a number of factor from that feedback and it ultimately boiled down would it encourage or inhibit users decision to use the app. An important thing to remember is the KaiOS devices are non-touchscreen, KaiOS is typically a person’s first phone and the goal is to boost digitalisation - it’s “selling cheaper and low-end but ultimately still functional and usable devices, to the poorest consumers in developing economies in sub-Saharan Africa.” - I’m quoting from this article here - https://techcrunch.com/2022/11/23/kaios-africa/

The demographics of the users are some of the poorest people in the world and the challenges that go along with living in that level of poverty, I’m talking about access to education, literacy, food and water. The question of security was also raised frequently in our feedback, the ability of people to physically protect their private key from others but also from the elements (heat, rain). Using a hardware wallet is just not an option for the user base, there is no laptop or device to do this. Nor is keeping a wallet backup file on the device or cloud storage. You have to bear in mind people are getting these phones for 10 USD or with carrier subsidies for free. The user base does not have any or little disposable income so that means no laptop, no cloud, no hardware wallet, no USB keys. We discussed paper wallets but simply for practical reasons outlined above, it’s not suitable.

You also have to consider the RAM on a lot of the KaiOs devices is quite low so once you exit out of an app, unless the progress is saved , the information is gone. it’s not like it can run multiple apps at once and you can switch between apps like you do on iPhone or Android. This is relevant is that if we gave someone the opportunity to record their private key there is no guarantee they would be able to access it effectively to take an offline copy. 

So based on our user feedback, testing, technical analysis, safety concerns, device accessibility it was decided, on balance, to offer a custodial solution at launch. The benefits of giving people access effectively outweighed other concerns. Not all of you will agree with that and I understand and accept that but for us as a small company trying to offer a solution to 100m MAU, who had no solution previously, we had to move forward in a way we felt best.

Part of our plans now is education campaign with the users on how to safely transact in crypto and trying to cover the basics. This will be done by emailing, texting them and having an education tab in our app.  Part of that education will cover public and private keys. In future versions of the app we will offer an option to export the private key.

https://www.cigniti.com and yes we will release the report from them.

Thank you

If both are custodial, and they are, there is no difference no matter what sweet words someone uses to explain their service.

Even if OP says yes, do you want to find yourself in a situation where you will have to find out? If we look back in history to the custodial services that got hacked or exit scanned, we can see it's very difficult to get your money back. It takes a long time and patience. Binance paid some of its users out of their own pockets because they have the money to spend. It made sense because the losses weren't something significant to a giant like Binance.

If users had the private keys, the service would be non-custodial. And that doesn't seem to be the case here.

Quote from the link you provided:


What is the difference between using this *wallet* and creating an account on a centralized platform? Or at least, will you guarantee customer funds if there is any hack or security bugs?
Can the user access the private key to recover his coins, or is the only way through email?

If the user creates an account via email ID or phone number, this service cannot be called creating a wallet.

Quoting some posts about your wallet:

https://sorted.finance/about-us

Then view the parent company's website:

https://sorsdigitalassets.com

Are you not bound by parent company law in practice? What guarantees that there is no KYC going forward?
We've had a number of bad experiences with wallets that are actually regulated.

So you asked your community of potential users whether they preferred a custodial wallet (where you hold their keys) or one where you are in control of their money (a non-custodial one), and they said we want you to do it?! Where and how did you communicate with those users to get such results, any links?

Provide more info please. Who audited your software? Did they release a public report?

Hi Dave,

- It is not open source
- Given user feedback and testing it is custodial
- Yes to security audits
- No KYC
- Not currently for phones outside of KaiOS

Thanks for the questions, we appreciate it

Well the standards ones for people who announce new wallets.

Open source?

Is it custodial or non custodial?

Any security audits done?

If it's custodial is there any KYC?

Requirements other then KaiOS? I know it's for lower end lower power phones but outside of that.

-Dave

Hey Bitcoin Talk Community,

We recently launched the first and only bitcoin wallet designed specifically for KaiOS-powered feature phones. We launched 2 weeks ago and have now over 2300 users and growing, majority from Pakistan and Nigeria. Just wanted to share it here.

https://www.kaiostech.com/store/apps/?bundle_id=finance.sorted.sortedwallet

Available in the KaiStore.

Happy to answer any questions here.

Thanks !

Stephen