Leave the trust system as is but remove trust scores

redsn0w

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#Free market

Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 20, 2015, 01:20:52 PM

Quote from: redsn0w on May 20, 2015, 01:07:50 PM

Sorry I want to say : it will 'centralize' more the trust system not decentralize

... if only the high rank members can leave a trust that it will be a sort of centralization (are you thinking the contrary?).

Imho it would be decentralization.

Just compare with the current status: a couple of hand-picked high rank users are in the default trust list and they are "the police". That's centralized.
If the change will happen, less ranks will add feedback indeed, but the feedback will count more than the current "untrusted" feedback. Much more people's feedback will count and the only condition is that you are "old enough" in this forum. Which imho is closer to decentralization.

Decentralized trust system (it could never exist) everyone can leave a trust and each trust is worth in the same way. allow less users to left trust is closer to a sort of centralization Wink

not the contrary. However the Blazr request is very good in my honest opinion, please remove the scores and much important the 'warning'....

ibminer

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Any chance a weight-based voting system would work for feedback?
Maybe leave trust list the way it is but allow other lower accounts to submit feedback and have other community members vote up/down to give the feedback "weight"... a certain weight needs to be achieved to make it into the "score" ?

Still leaves a higher list of users that can influence a score more dramatically (those in the default trust list) but offers the ability for others to make their vote count and gives everyone a "hand" in the feedback system?

Just thinking off the top of my head, this might be an asinine idea. Roll Eyes

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: redsn0w on May 20, 2015, 01:07:50 PM

Sorry I want to say : it will 'centralize' more the trust system not decentralize

... if only the high rank members can leave a trust that it will be a sort of centralization (are you thinking the contrary?).

Imho it would be decentralization.

Just compare with the current status: a couple of hand-picked high rank users are in the default trust list and they are "the police". That's centralized.
If the change will happen, less ranks will add feedback indeed, but the feedback will count more than the current "untrusted" feedback. Much more people's feedback will count and the only condition is that you are "old enough" in this forum. Which imho is closer to decentralization.

ibminer

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 20, 2015, 01:04:20 PM

Quote from: redsn0w on May 20, 2015, 12:52:10 PM

Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 20, 2015, 12:49:08 PM

Maybe, just maybe only Higher ranked ones (Member+? Sr+?) should give trust feedback at all, to avoid too many accounts made or bought to "take down" somebody's trust.

That will be discriminatory against the honest newbie users (person) bt maybe it will be a good idea, but it will decentralize more the trust system ... it is not a bad idea (at the end).

I agree it is discriminatory. However, a lot of voices ask for newbie jail and such.
Also, we all know how many lower rank users are created only for spam or scam.

And.. there are plenty of high rank users that can help out the honest newbie in such cases. There default trust members that actually do that currently.

It may not be the best way, but as you said it nicely: it will decentralize the trust system.

Its not decentralization that you want, its centralization with a group you are more comfortable with. I'm not comfortable with all high-ranked members being the default trust list. I can't say I'm 100% comfortable with the current trust list either, but I'm picking my poison. There are too many alts, high-ranked ones also, and it would probably create a nightmare for mods to manage trust abuse, which I think would run rampant in this environment.

redsn0w

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#Free market

Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 20, 2015, 01:04:20 PM

Quote from: redsn0w on May 20, 2015, 12:52:10 PM

Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 20, 2015, 12:49:08 PM

Maybe, just maybe only Higher ranked ones (Member+? Sr+?) should give trust feedback at all, to avoid too many accounts made or bought to "take down" somebody's trust.

That will be discriminatory against the honest newbie users (person) bt maybe it will be a good idea, but it will decentralize more the trust system ... it is not a bad idea (at the end).

I agree it is discriminatory. However, a lot of voices ask for newbie jail and such.
Also, we all know how many lower rank users are created only for spam or scam.

And.. there are plenty of high rank users that can help out the honest newbie in such cases. There default trust members that actually do that currently.

It may not be the best way, but as you said it nicely: it will decentralize the trust system.

Sorry I want to say : it will 'centralize' more the trust system not decentralize

... if only the high rank members can leave a trust that it will be a sort of centralization (are you thinking the contrary?).

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: redsn0w on May 20, 2015, 12:52:10 PM

Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 20, 2015, 12:49:08 PM

Maybe, just maybe only Higher ranked ones (Member+? Sr+?) should give trust feedback at all, to avoid too many accounts made or bought to "take down" somebody's trust.

That will be discriminatory against the honest newbie users (person) bt maybe it will be a good idea, but it will decentralize more the trust system ... it is not a bad idea (at the end).

I agree it is discriminatory. However, a lot of voices ask for newbie jail and such.
Also, we all know how many lower rank users are created only for spam or scam.

And.. there are plenty of high rank users that can help out the honest newbie in such cases. There default trust members that actually do that currently.

It may not be the best way, but as you said it nicely: it will decentralize the trust system.

redsn0w

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#Free market

Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 20, 2015, 12:49:08 PM

Quote from: Blazr on May 19, 2015, 12:26:17 PM

Just a random thought. Leave the trust system as it is, but remove the trust scores shown on the profile etc. To evaluate someones trustworthiness, users should open their trust page, review the feedback and evaluate the users trustworthiness for themselves.

So no more red warnings. What do you guys think? good idea/bad idea? will it stop "abuse" of the trust system? will people take the time to manually review trust before trading?

Actually it's a VERY GOOD idea.
People will learn to look and check all the feedback and decide which deserves to be taken into account and which not.

Maybe, just maybe only Higher ranked ones (Member+? Sr+?) should give trust feedback at all, to avoid too many accounts made or bought to "take down" somebody's trust.

That will be discriminatory against the honest newbie users (person) bt maybe it will be a good idea, but it will decentralize more the trust system ... it is not a bad idea (at the end).

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: Blazr on May 19, 2015, 12:26:17 PM

Just a random thought. Leave the trust system as it is, but remove the trust scores shown on the profile etc. To evaluate someones trustworthiness, users should open their trust page, review the feedback and evaluate the users trustworthiness for themselves.

So no more red warnings. What do you guys think? good idea/bad idea? will it stop "abuse" of the trust system? will people take the time to manually review trust before trading?

Actually it's a VERY GOOD idea.
People will learn to look and check all the feedback and decide which deserves to be taken into account and which not.

Maybe, just maybe only Higher ranked ones (Member+? Sr+?) should give trust feedback at all, to avoid too many accounts made or bought to "take down" somebody's trust.

Mikestang

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Quote from: Muhammed Zakir on May 20, 2015, 12:56:41 AM

Quote from: TheButterZone on May 20, 2015, 12:50:34 AM

"trust with extreme caution!"

Remove "extreme "?

Remove "trust" and "with" and "caution", too.

The warning text is totally unnecessary. Everyone should be trusted with caution, that is the default human behaviour. Even some people's own family will try to rip them off. Provide a trust/feedback "score" and I'll determine what to do with it, I don't need the text.

ibminer

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Quote from: SaltySpitoon on May 19, 2015, 01:19:23 PM

Quote from: Blazr on May 19, 2015, 12:26:17 PM

Just a random thought. Leave the trust system as it is, but remove the trust scores shown on the profile etc. To evaluate someones trustworthiness, users should open their trust page, review the feedback and evaluate the users trustworthiness for themselves.

So no more red warnings. What do you guys think? good idea/bad idea? will it stop "abuse" of the trust system? will people take the time to manually review trust before trading?

I proposed that a long while ago. I agree, people rely way too heavily on the green or red numbers, when they should really be reading feedback on a case by case basis.

What is the issue with showing scores?

Reducing the amount of visibility a person with negative feedback has is not a good idea.

If someone is too lazy to look at the trust page currently, what makes you think they will do it if the scores go away?
It is more likely they will just walk into scams more often, which I think will hurt Bitcoin & this forum.

I might be for a disclaimer under the red letters saying something like "verify all trust scores on a case-by-case basis" - and linking it to the users trust page.

In the end, we all have better things to worry about... Grin

Muhammed Zakir

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Quote from: TheButterZone on May 20, 2015, 12:50:34 AM

"trust with extreme caution!"

Remove "extreme "?

TheButterZone

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"trust with extreme caution!"

redsn0w

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#Free market

Basically I agree with @tspacepilot , tha phrase "trade with extreme caution" should be changed to another one.,.. Because we have seen that a lot of people have received a negative trust also if the didn't trade (so what is the purpose of trust system If someone receive a negative trust and there is not a trade involved?).

PS: it is better to change it in a generic warning phrase.

TheButterZone

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Quote from: dogie on May 19, 2015, 07:33:17 PM

[Discussion] On what basis are trust ratings less trustworthy/useful as they age? A lot of them could be from the days of $3, $30, $100 bitcoin so in today's money would be significantly multiplied. Or is that a bad thing....

Not a bad thing. For those of us who won't sell lower than the ATH, the BTC we're holding is always worth the most it has ever been.

Don't expire feedback. Once the trusted/untrusted feedback distinction is dropped, chronological sort by newest first (and hell, throw in seclog entries every time the password was changed, to hint at possible account sales since seclog only shows the last 30 days). Sybil attack patterns as well as single-username scumbag outlier ratings will become apparent, especially as they lack evidence, next to unique positives with proper reference links.

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Quote from: botany on May 19, 2015, 06:26:38 PM

Quote from: Vod on May 19, 2015, 06:21:30 PM

After thinking about it, not so sure this is a good idea. Think about all the people who left Bitcointalk in disgust after $username scammed them. They would never come back so their feedback would eventually become irrelevant and TF would eventually be able to scam again. Undecided

Would differentiating between positive and negative feedback solve this? Positive feedback gets expired/removed if the feedback giver doesn't login for a year. Negative feedback stays unless the feedback giver manually removes it.

[Discussion] On what basis are trust ratings less trustworthy/useful as they age? A lot of them could be from the days of $3, $30, $100 bitcoin so in today's money would be significantly multiplied. Or is that a bad thing....

Bicknellski

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Quote from: Mikestang on May 19, 2015, 06:32:45 PM

I'm in favor of a system as simple as what eBay has set up. Positive/negative, with feedback history readily visible. Easy to use, easy to understand, and not quite so arcane as this forum's "default trust" system. Which, I've never really understood, because I don't ever trust anything "by default". Trust is earned one user at a time.

Or in the case of Adam Allcock's ebay account tens of shill accounts but that sort of confidence trick already happens here with sock puppets in threads and for trust feedback which is unmoderated.

Mikestang

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I'm in favor of a system as simple as what eBay has set up. Positive/negative, with feedback history readily visible. Easy to use, easy to understand, and not quite so arcane as this forum's "default trust" system. Which, I've never really understood, because I don't ever trust anything "by default". Trust is earned one user at a time.

botany

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Quote from: Vod on May 19, 2015, 06:21:30 PM

After thinking about it, not so sure this is a good idea. Think about all the people who left Bitcointalk in disgust after $username scammed them. They would never come back so their feedback would eventually become irrelevant and TF would eventually be able to scam again. Undecided

Would differentiating between positive and negative feedback solve this? Positive feedback gets expired/removed if the feedback giver doesn't login for a year. Negative feedback stays unless the feedback giver manually removes it.

Vod

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Quote from: tidus1097 on May 19, 2015, 06:17:58 PM

Quote from: Vod on May 19, 2015, 06:10:39 PM

Quote from: TheButterZone on May 19, 2015, 06:04:19 PM

Why #2? Because positives can be left by A) scammer alts B) account-abandoners who won't modify their trust when an undeniable scammer is found C) ____. Negatives can also be left by A) account-abandoners B) scammer alts C) those in the wrong D) _____.

Remove trust left by any account that hasn't logged in for xx months?

Does the "xx" resemble double digit months? So anything higher than 10+ months would be acceptable? I would be ok with this. Maybe 1 year without logging in and their trust scores reset or something to that effect. This puts me in mind of Haploid https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/haploid23-18062 unfortunately. I can't seem to get that out of my head today for some reason even though I didn't know him and if its even true. But back on topic. They should be a way if someone was unable to log in for a year to recover their trust to if the incident presented itself.

After thinking about it, not so sure this is a good idea. Think about all the people who left Bitcointalk in disgust after $username scammed them. They would never come back so their feedback would eventually become irrelevant and TF would eventually be able to scam again. Undecided

tidus1097

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Quote from: Vod on May 19, 2015, 06:10:39 PM

Quote from: TheButterZone on May 19, 2015, 06:04:19 PM

Why #2? Because positives can be left by A) scammer alts B) account-abandoners who won't modify their trust when an undeniable scammer is found C) ____. Negatives can also be left by A) account-abandoners B) scammer alts C) those in the wrong D) _____.

Remove trust left by any account that hasn't logged in for xx months?

Does the "xx" resemble double digit months? So anything higher than 10+ months would be acceptable? I would be ok with this. Maybe 1 year without logging in and their trust scores reset or something to that effect. This puts me in mind of Haploid https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/haploid23-18062 unfortunately. I can't seem to get that out of my head today for some reason even though I didn't know him and if its even true. But back on topic. They should be a way if someone was unable to log in for a year to recover their trust to if the incident presented itself.

Vod

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Quote from: TheButterZone on May 19, 2015, 06:04:19 PM

Why #2? Because positives can be left by A) scammer alts B) account-abandoners who won't modify their trust when an undeniable scammer is found C) ____. Negatives can also be left by A) account-abandoners B) scammer alts C) those in the wrong D) _____.

Remove trust left by any account that hasn't logged in for xx months?

TheButterZone

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1) Remove the numbers in the poster_info cell, they're too vague, and only tied to trust networks
2) Put a red highlight on the trust link for EVERY SINGLE USER who has received any positive or negative trust rating, rather than 100% neutrals or not a single rating at all.
3) Like Salty, I would also be for seeing what would happen if default trust was removed.

Why #2? Because positives can be left by A) scammer alts B) account-abandoners who won't modify their trust when an undeniable scammer is found C) ____. Negatives can also be left by A) account-abandoners B) scammer alts C) those in the wrong D) _____.

Joca97

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this is a bad idea,lots of people will abuse the sistem on first sight
and more scams will come to the forum,so trust of members would be really low!

Vod

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Wish I could comment on this, but I'll be accused of being biased. Undecided

dogie

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Quote from: tspacepilot on May 19, 2015, 05:02:32 PM

Quote from: SaltySpitoon on May 19, 2015, 01:19:23 PM

I would be all for this as well, if you could figure out a way to prevent trust spam by people with hundreds of alts. Absolutely no weight would make the trust system as useful as forum polls. I'd actually be for seeing what would happen if default trust was removed, and people were forced to create their own trust lists right now. The system has been around long enough that people should know how to make it work best, but I feel that not much would change, people would still rely on a trust system built by a couple of well known members.

About the bolded, me too! A softer alternative might be to keep the default trust list around, but make it an opt-in. So, a new user has a blank trust list, but when you got to your trust settings you see some info about how to add "DefaultTrust" if you want a starter list and don't want to make your own.

[Cut down the quote for space]. Isn't that sort of the same thing though? If people wanted to use trust, 95% of them would simply check the box to use DefaultTrust rather than make their own list. Then all you've done is split the forum into 20% users using DefaultTrust, 75% of users using nothing and 5% using custom lists. Which again defeats the purpose of the trust system which is to protect those more vulnerable 75%.

tspacepilot

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Quote from: SaltySpitoon on May 19, 2015, 01:19:23 PM

Quote from: Blazr on May 19, 2015, 12:26:17 PM

Just a random thought. Leave the trust system as it is, but remove the trust scores shown on the profile etc. To evaluate someones trustworthiness, users should open their trust page, review the feedback and evaluate the users trustworthiness for themselves.

So no more red warnings. What do you guys think? good idea/bad idea? will it stop "abuse" of the trust system? will people take the time to manually review trust before trading?

I proposed that a long while ago. I agree, people rely way too heavily on the green or red numbers, when they should really be reading feedback on a case by case basis.

Quote from: Bicknellski on May 19, 2015, 12:38:01 PM

Remove all levels of trust or default trust.

Everyone same level.

Free for all let the market determine the value of red marks not just a few people hand picked.

I would be all for this as well, if you could figure out a way to prevent trust spam by people with hundreds of alts. Absolutely no weight would make the trust system as useful as forum polls. I'd actually be for seeing what would happen if default trust was removed, and people were forced to create their own trust lists right now. The system has been around long enough that people should know how to make it work best, but I feel that not much would change, people would still rely on a trust system built by a couple of well known members.

About the bolded, me too! A softer alternative might be to keep the default trust list around, but make it an opt-in. So, a new user has a blank trust list, but when you got to your trust settings you see some info about how to add "DefaultTrust" if you want a starter list and don't want to make your own.

@OP, a similar idea, which I proposed in another thread, was to not remove the "scores" or the warning, but to change the text to something more descriptive. Right now, it's the inflammatory "Warning...Extreme Caution". But what if it said "This person has received negative feedback from someone in your trust list. If the latter was implemented, people who don't know how the system works might react "huh, my trust list?" and then figure out that they have a trust list that they can edit and investigate. As things stand, "Warning..." it looks like a message from God or something, not like something that has to do with your own settings.

RocketSingh

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Quote from: Blazr on May 19, 2015, 12:26:17 PM

Just a random thought. Leave the trust system as it is, but remove the trust scores shown on the profile etc. To evaluate someones trustworthiness, users should open their trust page, review the feedback and evaluate the users trustworthiness for themselves.

So no more red warnings. What do you guys think? good idea/bad idea? will it stop "abuse" of the trust system? will people take the time to manually review trust before trading?

+1

Quote from: Bicknellski on May 19, 2015, 12:38:01 PM

Remove all levels of trust or default trust.

Everyone same level.

Free for all let the market determine the value of red marks not just a few people hand picked.

+1

Both are good idea. There will be abuse, but there are ways to handle that...

i. Restrict trust feedback power to a minimum certain level... say Member/Full Member.

ii. Have proper warning in each and every forum, like now given with newbie messages.

These wont stop some account farmers, but you can not save a chicken either. Centralized trust, like DefaultTrust are bringing in centralized abuse, which is a bigger threat than some newbie screaming scam after trying convert 0.01 BTC to 1 BTC overnight.

Muhammed Zakir

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+1. I support this.

Quote from: Bicknellski on May 19, 2015, 01:38:03 PM

No doubt it will be abused. It is being "abused" now as well.

If it is supposed to be unmoderated why have a default level?

Probably to avoid spam. If everyone have same power, shills/scammers will win against legit users.

Bicknellski

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No doubt it will be abused. It is being "abused" now as well.

If it is supposed to be unmoderated why have a default level?

SaltySpitoon

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Quote from: Blazr on May 19, 2015, 12:26:17 PM

Just a random thought. Leave the trust system as it is, but remove the trust scores shown on the profile etc. To evaluate someones trustworthiness, users should open their trust page, review the feedback and evaluate the users trustworthiness for themselves.

So no more red warnings. What do you guys think? good idea/bad idea? will it stop "abuse" of the trust system? will people take the time to manually review trust before trading?

I proposed that a long while ago. I agree, people rely way too heavily on the green or red numbers, when they should really be reading feedback on a case by case basis.

Quote from: Bicknellski on May 19, 2015, 12:38:01 PM

Remove all levels of trust or default trust.

Everyone same level.

Free for all let the market determine the value of red marks not just a few people hand picked.

I would be all for this as well, if you could figure out a way to prevent trust spam by people with hundreds of alts. Absolutely no weight would make the trust system as useful as forum polls. I'd actually be for seeing what would happen if default trust was removed, and people were forced to create their own trust lists right now. The system has been around long enough that people should know how to make it work best, but I feel that not much would change, people would still rely on a trust system built by a couple of well known members.

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Quote from: dogie on May 19, 2015, 12:39:26 PM

Quote from: Blazr on May 19, 2015, 12:26:17 PM

So no more red warnings. What do you guys think? good idea/bad idea?

Warnings are to prevent something bad happening, so hiding then isn't conducive to that.

Quote from: Blazr on May 19, 2015, 12:26:17 PM

will people take the time to manually review trust before trading?

Those that need protecting the most won't, which is the problem.

Exactly. Most people wont check. Look how many people got scammed by newbs over in the auction sub with the ad slots. The trust system works well as a warning system 99% of the time, but of course there are always issues and abuses but they should be dealt with when they arise. Scams would definitely go up if we got rid of the red warning.

Bicknellski

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Here is a thought.

Avoid VAT scams and Escrows that hide their identities. And make double sure they are not on the Default Trust list ever again.

Quickseller

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There are a number of people who have very high trust scores because of one or two trades several years ago. I have always wondered just how safe it would be to trade with them verses someone who has a lower (but still positive) trust score with a lot of positive ratings, including several recently. If I had to guess, I would say the later person would be a safer person to trust your money with.

redsn0w

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#Free market

Quote from: Blazr on May 19, 2015, 12:26:17 PM

Just a random thought. Leave the trust system as it is, but remove the trust scores shown on the profile etc. To evaluate someones trustworthiness, users should open their trust page, review the feedback and evaluate the users trustworthiness for themselves.

So no more red warnings. What do you guys think? good idea/bad idea? will it stop "abuse" of the trust system? will people take the time to manually review trust before trading?

Good idea, but a score would be exist always (as part of trust system). I do not think your idea will be added or realized (because also without trust scores the users will not go checkout the trust profile).

dogie

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Quote from: Blazr on May 19, 2015, 12:26:17 PM

So no more red warnings. What do you guys think? good idea/bad idea?

Warnings are to prevent something bad happening, so hiding them isn't conducive to that.

Quote from: Blazr on May 19, 2015, 12:26:17 PM

will people take the time to manually review trust before trading?

Those that need protecting the most won't, which is the problem.

Quote from: Bicknellski on May 19, 2015, 12:38:01 PM

Free for all let the ~~market~~ people with the most accounts determine the value of red marks not just a few people hand picked.

Fixed.

Bicknellski

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Remove all levels of trust or default trust.

Everyone same level.

Free for all let the market determine the value of red marks not just a few people hand picked.

Blazr

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Just a random thought. Leave the trust system as it is, but remove the trust scores shown on the profile etc. To evaluate someones trustworthiness, users should open their trust page, review the feedback and evaluate the users trustworthiness for themselves.

So no more red warnings. What do you guys think? good idea/bad idea? will it stop "abuse" of the trust system? will people take the time to manually review trust before trading?

Topic: Leave the trust system as is but remove trust scores (Read 1429 times)