Topic: Ledger Stax (Ledger's latest hardware wallet) (Read 972 times)

As I'm for years not interested in Ledger hardware because it's closed-source, I likely didn't keep the source of the interesting article of this vulnerability researcher who in my opinion did quite a good job to reverse engineer parts of Ledger Nano's firmware. It was a good read as far as I remember it, out of curiosity and because I'm generally interested in security stuff.

I found it particularly interesting, and so different to other hardware wallets, that for a Nano the MCU seems to do more the housekeeping, display, buttons, interface, signaling to the secure element and way less of the crypto stuff. If I don't mix it up, the Ledger coin/token apps are code running in the secure element where Ledger uses in parts special firmware extensively offloading coin stuff in their secure element.

I'd happily provide a source but couldn't find the bookmark for it so far, sorry. It's a pretty old source but I don't expect Ledger to have changed a lot of their internal design logic. Why Ledger does it the way they do it, I've no clear idea and I don't care about their security talk bullshit

Anyway, you're correct, because the firmware is a black box, it's all speculation what could be or not. And I don't believe the Ledger Paris freaks a single word anymore. I don't need Ledger crap and I won't recommend to use it for obvious reasons. If Ledger still fan boys don't understand this, that's on them, probably lost cases, sad if they're going to learn by pain when Ledger srews it up again.


No offense taken, but I disagree in parts. I hope I didn't regurgitate Ledger's marketing bullshit. I rather believe more what this researcher published about Nano's internals and what somewhat stuck in my memory than what Ledger fantasizes in words, videos and marketing propaganda.

We're on the same page. I'd add based on constand complains of users: Ledger Live is painfully crappy software for crypto masochists.

A Ledger rant a day, keeps the doctor away... 

That means everything else you said is irrelevant.  No offense, but everything else you said relies on believing Ledger regarding how their hardware wallets work, which they've already lied about many times.


Exactly.

How do we know the current firmware can't do this already?  We don't.  That's why I stopped using Ledger hardware last year and moved my Bitcoin to a seed that never touched Ledger hardware.

To anyone who says Ledger hardware wallets can't already extract your seed without you pressing a button to confirm it, I say: Prove it.  Even Ledger admits they can't prove their firmware doesn't have any backdoors (they can't prove it without making the code open source).

That's like somebody saying "Your name isn't on this list!"  OK, show me the list.  "I, uh, can't do that."

Don't trust your Bitcoin to closed source code, especially not after the authors of that code lied about their code.  Why does this even need to be said?


The device uses closed source firmware with key extraction capability.

The device cannot be trusted because:
The firmware cannot be trusted.
And the company cannot be trusted.

I forgot where I've seen and read it, I remember vaguely an old vulnerability analysis for Ledger Nano S, I believe, by some researcher who did some extensive reverse engineering, but Ledger's buttons are controlled by the MCU and its firmware, ie. entirely by software. The MCU communicates button presses by software to the secure element which runs the more important firmware and apps of Ledger crap.

As far as I understand it, you can't emulate button presses by anything coming from outside (we have to believe the Ledger morons here, because black-box firmware) but I don't see any obstacle to push a firmware update for those devices which signals "extract seed and phone home" without user's consent and button presses.

The buttons are software controlled, not more, not less.

I thought more about it and the only answer to this that I could think of is that, as far as I know, Ledger says the Software of their Products will be incapable of doing anything unless the physical buttons are touched.  This is why they kept advertising their Product as extremely safe against any virtual attempt of hacking or theft.  But I have not seen any proof of this being a fact.  The last instruction for activating the Ledger Recover Subscription is,

Source (https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/9568313619997-How-to-activate-your-Ledger-Recover-subscription?docs=true)

So I presume this is how we are thought to be ensured it will not trigger on its own?

Exactly. Even though the service is optional, its very existence implies it can be triggered by an event.  So if they can initiate it with our consent, then why couldnt it be triggered without it?  As you mentioned, there is no physical barrier like a hardware switch, so everything relies on the software. And software, as we know, can be modified with each update.

Beware of anyone who tells you it's optional.  Ask them to prove it.  They can't, which means you can't trust it.


I'd say yes.  The keys in a Ledger wallet can be accessed remotely thanks to their key extraction firmware.  Ledger fanboys will say that's possible with any hardware wallet, not just Ledger, but that's not true.  Only Ledger wrote code to add key extraction capability and built it into their firmware.  Ledger firmware can't be trusted.

No firmware with key extraction capability can be trusted.


In theory, three companies have the shards.  But again, as I always say...  Prove it.

Oh, and by the way, Ledger holds the master key for ALL USERS:


And let's not forget Ledger was hacked when an EX-employee got phished:


Why did an ex-employee still have access to the codebase?  Ledger won't say.

Ledger can't be trusted.

Only trust fully open source code, because open source code can be verified.

Thank you for correcting me.

-----

I did not verify their code if there is any that is public and verifiable.  But every time I hear about virtual switches or 'optional' stuff I become very skeptical about it.  Virtual switches are a risk.  This is why there are phones being created with physical switches for WiFi or Cameras.  And even these are being questioned for their reliability.

Is the Ledger Recover option truly optional or can it be triggered?  In the imaginary scenario of me being a target of the United States or European Governments and Ledger or Coincover secretly working with them to take me down, can this become a problem for me and the Security of my Coins?  Because many things are in my opinion very contradictory or lack sense on their 'What is Ledger Recover?' article (https://www.ledger.com/academy/what-is-ledger-recover).  For example,

This makes no sense.  If Coincover only has a fragment of my Seed Phrase, then I am pretty sure they can not recover my full Seed Phrase in the event I lose it.  So while fragments alone are useless, do they not hold ALL fragments necessary to recover my Wallet?  Who other than Coincover stores the rest of the fragments?  Air?

They begin the article explaining how Ledger Recover makes Self Custody more convenient and less frightening,
Then they say Ledger Recover is not for those who do not trust Third Parties,

I would quote more of their article but you get the idea.  Ledger is not to be trusted.

Who guarantees however that my connection to Ledger Live does not automatically send information through Coincover?  Who guarantees there is no way my Ledger device can be tricked into sending fragments to a bad actor?  There is no physical switch between sending or not sending my information to Coincover.  It would be different if Ledger Recover was only included in a different Firmware.  As in, you can choose between having it or not having it hard coded into your device.  But it always being there feels risky to me.  If years ago I would of said Ledger can be easily plugged in a computer heavily infected by Malware, I do not think so any more.

Hello Customers, we just hard coded a bomb into your Ledger device.  It is only optional though!  It can only be triggered if and when you want it to explode because we truly care for your Safety!

Only those who have the relevant  secret can extract data from SE. HW manufacturer  do has it.

 The point here is the same as in the case of having the lock on the door to your house. Manufacturer of that lock also has the pertaining  secret  however you prefer to have the lock on the door rather than to keep the latter open for everyone outside.

Sure we are dealing with very sensitive stuff, namely crypto, which is attractive to virtually everyone in the world, thus the threat potentially coming  from given  manufacturer is not supposed to be ignored. Thus to be on the safe side use multisig (with cosigners from different manufacturers) to keep your stash safely.

Prove it.

Ledger Recover may be optional, but the code required for your seed to be extracted from your hardware wallet is not optional.  It's baked into the firmware, just waiting to be hacked or worse.  We've already seen one Ledger ex-employee get fished and give hackers access to their codebase, which is only made worse by the fact that we've seen Ledger terminate lots of employees.

Again, the feature is optional, but the code is not.  And the code is on your hardware wallet whether you want it or not.

So, I ask:  What's the point of having a secure element chip if the keys can be extracted out of the device over the internet?

EDIT: I'm not saying any of this to be rude.  Since Ledger's firmware isn't open, we can't prove what the code can or can't do.  We have to take Ledger's word, which became impossible to do once Ledger started lying about so many things.

It's written Anybody not Any body.  
Microchips that are used for hardware wallets have different capacity limitations, sometimes this is done for better security.
I wouldn't say ledger is a scam for doing this, but they could announce this limitation before official release.

With ledger it's all about advertisement and they had to pay big money to apple designer Tony Fadell I think  

You can't increase memory of hardware wallets.

They have such a stupid concept with apps that needs to be installed.
I wrote recently how they had app for Liquid Network that only worked for nono S (nother stupid thing), but than they removed the app and you can't even uninstall it from their stupid software Ledger Suite or directly from ledger device.

That is only optional feature (for now).

Correct. And I think should they need more memory for their purpose they could utilize two or three SE  even from different manufactures. Probably the current memory size fits Ledger Stax  tasks it engaged with.

I’m more concerned not with the size of the memory in Ledger's products , but with its quality, like the relevant data retention, memory wear etc..

I don't understand the point of having a secure element chip if the keys can be extracted out of the device over the internet.

It appears that batch 2/3 are on track for another shipment delay ^{[unfortunately]}: Anyone received their June BATCH 2 Stax order?

I'm pretty sure most developers can release more efficient apps, but I strongly feel this is part of their strategy to sell more of these devices ^{[it worked for the previous models]}!

It's due to the limited flash memory space on the secure elements of their devices ^[source].

It seems that Ledger conducted a kind of crowdfunding with Stax: first they raised money, and only then produced a device for sale.

I understand that pre-orders happen a month before release, but to wait a whole year seems like a mockery (not the latest from this company) of customers.

Did Ledger at least try to clearly explain what this is connected with (such a small memory volume)? Is there a global shortage of larger memory chips?

This means that you will have to pay extra to increase the memory of the hardware wallet. It's business, baby.

Any body knows why in the World do Ledger devices have such a small storage space?  Floppy Disks introduced 40 YEARS AGO had MORE space than 'the most luxurious device' of Ledger.  Almost 300 Dollars for this feels like a Scam if you ask me.

I hope nobody here made a big mistake with ordering this new crap coming from ledger faketory.
First ledger forced their customers to wait more than a year for shipping to start for all preorders, but now real fun begins.
Memory space for new ledger stax device is only 1.06 MB
That can be even bigger problem in future as ledger is always increasing size of their apps.

Let me just remind everyone that ledger nono S plus has 1.28 MB and ledger nono X has 1.76 MB memory.
That means that ledger stax has smallest memory space from all devices except old ledger S with only 138 KB capacity.
I also have my doubs about durability of this new devices, especially screen part, but is another topic.



Stay away from all ledger products.

They don't but somehow, they've managed to master the art of convincing their customer of the need to purchase more than a single device of the same kind ^{[refer to some of the comments in their subreddit]}.
^{- They seem to enjoy taking advantage of their ignorant users (SMH)!}

• Quote
  We planned to ship Ledger Stax earlier this year, but it has taken our display provider months more than they originally expected to ensure every screen matches our quality standards.
  Wait, what?! I didn't know they had any
  
  
• Quote
  Often when v1.0 products come to market, they're really v0.9. This delay with the screen has allowed us to deliver a product in Ledger Stax that is truly beyond v1.0 at launch.
  IIRC, there was also a delay with Nano S Plus, but there were still a lot of issues at its launch!

I don't like BIP85 personally, because it overloads the "coin" part of the deviation number. Coin is supposed to be used (per BIP44) to identify the coin network. As someone who's making a wallet library, this means that I won't be able to use BIP85 and multi-coins at the same time.

Why didn't they just use "account", which is also hardened? Is that not it's intended purpose?

If the given wallet is BIP85 compliant then there is no need to write down  all bunch of the child mnemonics. All of them are derived from a single master SEED  which  makes mnemonic management to be very easy matter. For instance in the case of HW backup one has to write down solely the master mnemonic and be safe forever. BTW, Passport 2  has such functionality as generate multiple  child SEEDs  from master mnemonic while Ledger Stax has not.

There's the beauty of it! You don't need to write down any mnemonics! For the low price of only $10 per month per mnemonic, Ledger will store them all for you! Such secure! Many value! Wow!

There is an argument to be made to have a second hardware device which you can use for the emergency recovery of your funds should your primary device be lost, stolen, or damaged, so you don't need to risk importing your seed phrase in to a hot wallet. But if you can always just buy a new device should this happen and you are willing to wait a few days. And if you do need an emergency back up device on hand, then you can pick up something cheap like a SeedSigner and not splash out $300 for this NFT picture frame.

Remember this is a Tony Fadell design, so it has a lot of features that resemble Apple but do not make much sense for cryptocurrency at large. Minimalist interfaces do not really work in this industry.

However:


If you mean multiple wallets in the same HW, I fail to see how that's going to be useful since not only will it have the same effect of generating more addresses inside a single wallet, but there will also be more mnemonics to write down.

I don't understand why anyone would need this device, at all:


Have Ledger forgotten that passphrases exist? Or derivation paths? Or even just resetting the device and entering a different seed phrase? Why would anyone need multiple devices?

And the latest gimmick is a protective case? I thought the whole point of this stupid wallet was to stack them together and show a picture on the front and text up the side? Now they are telling you to slap these cheap cases on them to stop them stacking together and to hide the picture and text?

Instead of releasing a practical thing with a regular screen without curves and also install a removable battery, they want to release this "misunderstanding". So they will not see profits, but rather will receive losses due to small sales and the need to spend their resources on supporting Ledger Stax on an equal footing with other models.

Maybe they are also affected by ledger recover release news that resulted in decline in popularity and lower sales.
Stax maybe looks nice but I would never waste my money on this device, from inside they don't have anything special or new compared with their older models.
I don't know anyone who owns Stax wallet, and I never tested it so I can't say more about it.

You mean other than making more profit for ledger?  

Update on Stax from Ledger, looks like they are delayed due to the curved e-ink display. There is no new delivery date specified.

https://app.news.ledger.com/e/es?s=1909208&e=658949&elqTrackId=efd74c1a1b7a40299e524d6e5aa03bea&elq=dac020f6a554448cb87c74246b90cb5a&elqaid=674&elqat=1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1hyxbZibaY

I had predicted this is what was causing issues. https://twitter.com/zachherbert/status/1682015265326874630

Ironically the curved e-ink is only there to show a wallet label on the side so you can "stack" multiple devices together. I don't understand why anyone would need more than one device?

Decrypt just released first in-depth review of new Ledger Stax hardware wallet that is showing most we saw so far, but I am not sure if this is paid or sponsored review.
Funny enough they didn't like ledger's E-ink display ^{(I like it btw)} because it can't be fully used to display NFT's in full color, and with right they say that some users don't like wireless protocol for communicating with other devices.
I expected to see more from this review, maybe comparison with older ledger wallets or showing other improvements or weak points, but whatever.
https://decrypt.co/122367/ledger-stax-hands-on-review-hardware-wallet-ipod-design-flourishes

Nobody is doing that, and ledger just pay their marketing team to invent bunch of fantasy features that sound cool but in reality they don't have any usability.
My joke suggestion is that shitconers can use separate Stax wallets for each of their shitcoin and nft junk they own.
And if people want to waste money on this thing, go ahead and stack them together with magic magnets 

Most of the ledger devs are clowns like their co-owner aka reddit mod btchip, and I am patiently waiting to hear first complains about battery and other hidden issues this device have.

God damn I hate like 99% of YouTube. 2:20 in to the video before he actually said anything useful.

But he does (eventually) touch on what I've said already in this thread - the stack feature makes absolutely no sense. Including it as a second thought would be strange enough, but naming the device after it as a flagship feature is just completely bizarre. 99% of user will not own more than one device, especially not at $280. For the tiny minority of users who do own more than one device, encouraging them to stack them together and therefore store them in the exact same place is the opposite of security. Why would you want all your wallets in the same location, all subject to the same risk of loss or theft?

The fact that apparently an entire team of people at Ledger thought this was a good idea really makes me question what other stuff goes on behind the scenes there that we are unaware of.

Adam Venture also mentioned something that I thought about the first time I read about the features of the Ledger Stax. I am talking about the screen that can always stay on to display your NFT collection and the likes. Who keeps their hardware wallets out in the open to enjoy their NFTs? Is this HW supposed to be by your side when you are working so you can occasionally glance at your NFTs and be happy about having them? When you go out for dinner, are you going to put it on the table next to your plate to enjoy your digital monkey and banana collections? I also don't see a future where people go out clubbing with their Stax's in one hand and a drink in the other. Maybe Ledger thinks that will happen.

I don't think this magnets are strong enough to damage anything, except maybe the brains of people who blindly trust this ledger propaganda.
Oh it must be great device that was designer by iOS designer and he added that special secure click sound feature
Another stupid suggestion is that Stax is somehow family friendly device, so you would use this magnets to connect all family wallet, that one of the more stupid things I heard in a while.

It's not the sound of security. It's the sound of bullshit and a marketing campaign. Not that I am interested in the device, but I will check out the video review just to see what he thinks of it.

It has to be a really strong magnet for it to cause any damage to the electronics inside the device. That's surely not the case here. I have a shaker that I sometimes take to the gym. It's equipped with two magnets so you can stick it to metal objects like the machines you train on. The other side of the shaker has a magnet that can hold your phone if you want. I have used it a few times and there were no problems at all.

And speaking of magnets, I was wondering if they could damage some of the internal components in the long run ^{[I'm getting mixed results/answers from Google/Youtube and AFAIK, they (Ledger) haven't mentioned what kind of magnets are being used or how strong they are]}?

There is one nice review video released for Ledger Stax and I think it will clear things up for many people who are thinking of buying on of this devices.
I won't say any spoilers but I have to give credits to Adam Venture for spotting something I missed, how misleading ledger website can be sometimes.
Ledger Stax is using magnets, that can be used for connecting multiple devices, but they are saying that this somehow magically creates the sound of security, while it has no connection with security whatsoever.
Customers can get the wrong impression that Stax is somehow safer than other hardware wallets, when in reality it has the same tech like older models.


https://shop.ledger.com/products/ledger-stax
Review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUmNHHBHEP8

I have the S version and I'm good with its design as its handy. We've got the same thoughts and likes about an HW that's too big, I don't like that as well.

They're designing and probably still on the phase of monitoring if the sales will surge with the new design, yeah for sure there will be buyers and even those that have got the older versions are likely to purchase it because it's "new".

Even ignoring all the negative things that happened in the past, I don't see the point of such a device at such a price. I have their S and X models and personally I prefer that the HW is smaller and doesn't look like something like a smartphone or tablet. Maybe some people will be interested in such a concept because it will be easier for them to handle such a device - but older Ledger models have the possibility to be connected to smartphones anyway for those who want such an experience.

It's because some companies prioritizes what's close to them and such releases are being done there first before the customers that are offshore. That's what I'm thinking of but if on this case and they're not like that then that's good. All of the releases from any place on Earth that orders this stax is by April.

That's okay, you really don't have to buy it if you don't like the stuff and the company.

What does the type of browser have to do with the date when the new devices will start shipping? Everyone is shown the same date, because it would be really idiotic to prioritize some regions of the world over others. In addition, considering the price and the fact that this is a completely new device that can have various vulnerabilities, I do not believe that there will be much interest in its purchase.

Even if it costs $100, I personally wouldn't buy it because I don't trust that company after they showed how they handle their clients' data and how they tried to marginalize the whole thing.

I've visited Ledger's website and thought that it was just going to be a not so expensive new release. But yeah, that's a lot for pricing with a tag of $279 for this new release almost doubled with its older versions, it says free shipping.

But wise buyers will wait for those reviews from the early buyers and will ask what they think about it. Does the ledger's website says different shipping timeline? What's the earliest month it says it will be delivered based on your browsers? Mine says shipping will be around by April this year using a TOR browser.

Yep, I agree.  For me there's no need for something really fancy when it comes to hardware wallets, and both the Nano S and X are easy to use and are small.  I don't know about anyone else, but bigger is not better with HW wallets IMO.

I'd never pay $279 for a HW wallet.  Jesus, I think I've owned cars that cost less than that.

Ledger released this new wallet called Stax and I have to say it does look cool physically, but what I was researching is inside components.
Most of the components and secure elements are the same that are used in ledger nano S plus, but they also included battery in Stax and that is the thing that makes me think this device will have similar problems like model nano X.

For people who don't know there is still a lot of problems with quality and control of batteries put in nano X, and I still see a lot of complains on their reddit page.
There are other problems people report with screen for model S, or bricking device when updating new firmware, but that is different story.

Here is one guy saying recently that 3 of his 6 ledger devices are defective!
https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/103w9fb/3_of_my_6_ledger_devices_are_defective/

Different guy saying [Nano X] Not working when on battery. Ledger support not answering:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/103g7ez/nano_x_not_working_when_on_battery_ledger_support/

Few days ago, Ledger Nano X : Error Battery Cannot charge:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/zvrmsx/ledger_nano_x_error_battery_cannot_charge/

Stax is using rechargeable lithium-ion 200 mah battery, and model X is using lithium-ion 100mAh battery, so I think it's just difference in number of cells.
We still don't know if they are using same partners from China for batteries in model Stax, but if they are, I would stay far away this new ledger device.

Maybe you can buy an average smartphone for about $300, but that phone is far from those premium devices that cost at least twice as much, but also justify the investment because they are reliable, comfortable to work with, due to powerful processors and at least 6 GB of working memory. For example, I invested more than $600 in a smartphone 3 years ago and it still works perfectly today as it did on the first day - and one of my friends who bought these a little cheaper has already changed 2 devices.

What I want to say is that I find it a little funny that people compare a hardware wallet with the price of something that has nothing to do with each other - I can also say that for that price you can buy an electric romobile that you can use to go to work and to the store every day and thus save a lot of money on fuel that you would spend if you used a car.

It follows the methodology of what the market wants. In the end, Ledger is a company that focuses on profits. Enhancing privacy is a problem for customers, whenever it is profitable, they will focus on it.

When people come to cryptocurrency community, they remember the banking systems, where you open an account and get a card that you can spend from, this device is an application of AIO, you will get everything in one device.

Is it worth this price?

It's almost the price of an average phone, with no extra features, and they haven't even tried to attract privacy-conscious individuals with a small privacy-related version.

That's probably because Ledger is the only hardware wallet vendor that operates out of France. ANSSI is the French National Cybersecurity Agency. Other countries may or may not have their own laws, requirements, and standards that companies in those jurisdictions need to adhere to. When an ANSSI certified laboratory checks a product, they issue it a security visa. It's like a stamp or guarantee that is supposed to give customers and all other parties confidence that a national authority has inspected and verified the product.   

You can find more information about it here:
https://www.ssi.gouv.fr/en/actualite/the-anssi-security-visa-by-the-french-national-cybersecurity-agency/

It is a third-party who certificates

Ledger is the only hardware wallet ho has this certification  (I don't know how much good is it  anyway)

Unfortunately people are very impressionable by marketing and media, and critical thinking skills are becoming extinct.  Being skeptical is no longer taught in schools and those who follow the lemming mob off the cliff are commended and revered as "good citizens."



Lol, good catch.  I missed that when looking it over.  *Check out our awesome new hardware wallet, but it's not really a hardware wallet just yet!  

When are they going to know if it passes certification, who's certifying it, and who certifies the certifiers?

That's normal for E Ink displays, and you can see that on some Kindles as well.

You guessed correctly: the effect is known as "ghosting". The way it's explained, is that E Ink displays are made up of black and white particles. Every time the screen changes, those particles get rearranged to create the next elements on screen. Unfortunately, it also happens that the previous elements don't change completely, so it looks like you can still see what was there before.

https://blog.the-ebook-reader.com/2019/10/28/seeing-faint-background-text-on-ebook-readers-is-normal/

It is impressive how can people are really pre ordering this just because it is beautiful, and it is not even certified that it is safe yet. Omg, a hw should be safe first, then beautiful.

They don't even know if it is safe yet!


It is a very beautiful model, but it is more expensive than a smartphone. I see no reason to buy one.

It's an overkill ^{[e.g. wireless charging, curved/wrap-around screen and etc...]}!

As much as I hate to say it, that's actually the case with some of their users and I'm not referring to those who have multiple Nano S devices ^{[as someone who visits their subreddit from time to time, I tend to see more than a few users that actually own multiple Nano X devices (here's one)]}.

Is it normal for such display types to have a ghosting effect when it goes to another page or "this" is another one of Ledger's masterpieces?

Somehow I cannot lose the feeling that this will become Ledger Blue 2.0. Just hope that I'll be proven wrong, as it does look amazing.

If it's one thing I have learned in all my years (decades) interacting not only with crypto but technology in general is never to underestimate the potential of people to waste money on useless and unnecessary gadgets. This is just one of them. They certainly have the marketing budget to shill this one to the sky, and I am sure that's what they are going to do. I don't doubt we will also see a few celebrities advertising this thing as something you just have to own and those techniques will be enough. Don't forget that people are still camping outside of shops when a new model of their favorite item is ready to be officially unveiled. 

Maybe, but at the same time a lot of people who hold their coins on exchanges are very casual/small users, and they leave their coins on exchanges because they don't want to pay the $5 withdrawal fee that exchanges charge. These people certainly aren't going to buy a $280 hardware wallet when you can get a more secure one without all the stupid gimmicks for $50.

This is marketing speak. Their definition of "on" in this sense will be that it will still display your NFT or your name or whatever other risky information you decide to display on the cover, but it won't actually be powered up for months at a time I'm certain. E-ink displays only use a tiny amount of power. As soon as you start doing resource intensive tasks with it like signing transactions then the battery life will reduce accordingly.

I would understand if it was a prototype and an experiment.

We had phones before with E-Ink displays on the back that shows weather, notifications, E-mails and so on at all times.  These had an utility, although nobody asked for it and nobody seems to want it anyway.

But to be honest, the only utility I see with Ledger's new product is someone wasting $2,799 on 10 of these Stax and using them to display some kind of meme made out of character map or an NFT split into 10 different long pieces.

Ledger is becoming the new Apple with these prices.  How will a discount look?  Get the Family Pack containing four Stax at only $1,150 $1,099, because it is definitely worth the deal?

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

When it comes to the battery power, they claim it can stay on for weeks and months after one full charge. If that's true, it's quite impressive because I have never heard any other hardware wallet manufacturer to have such a feature.

Maybe you can upload a picture of yourself and write down your address below it. Completely unnecessary. 

That's just marketing nonsense. However, you can't compare the security offered by a hardware wallet with that of a hot phone wallet. But there is nothing wrong with their other devices that would require me to purchase this $300 credit-card looking thingy as my travel companion. If I wanted a Ledger for travels, I would go for an additional cheaper one, not the most expensive and delicate HW.

At a time when most people still complain that hardware wallets are too expensive devices, Ledger decided to make one just like that - so all those who think that they should allocate several hundred $ for HW will have another reason to continue living in their illusions. I can say that this device reminds me of their abandoned Ledger Blue model, with of course some modifications - but I certainly wouldn't buy it because of the magnet and the fact that it can display NTFs.

Somehow, it doesn't seem to me that this device will be too popular, if for no other reason than for the price, which at least 90% of users are certainly not ready to pay.

This is such a weird product. They claimed it was designed to travel wherever the user goes, but why would they bring an HW wallet when traveling in the first place? Or is there a new trend where people get a cold wallet when they take a trip? Bringing a hot wallet like a phone is probably the better choice, no need to carry two devices just to manage your crypto. I can see understand if it is like an NFC card or something similar like that. Since it is cheap and doesn't attract unwarranted attention, unlike this one.

Looking at how they promote this wallet, looks like their target is new retail investors who usually hold crypto on exchanges. Maybe one or two of their research department staff look at Reddit and see that this thing can sell since those people like fancy stuff, it is clearly not for me (and probably not for the majority of the user in this forum either). The price is also insane in my region, I can buy 3-4 Nano S for one of these, which is a better deal.

I think that Stax is another beautiful toy from Ledger. Admittedly, this company knows how to lure buyers with an attractive and bright cover / wrapper.

You can't ignore the price. ~$280 is a bit pricey, but I'm sure there are geeks willing to buy this and brag about it every step of the way.

Also, I admit, the device looks nice, but this should not be the main function of the device. It is more important that the HW is reliable and safe for storing crypto, and not for flaunting the device at parties. It seems that the ledger focuses on the second, forgetting what exactly the hardware wallets is for.

Just for the looks.  They are clearly looking to just make their products more eye catching, nothing more to it.  Because clearly as Bitcoiners E-Ink displays and magnetic cases is what we were always waiting for.  Not Open Source components and software, not providing Bitcoin the very basic functions such as Message Signing, Replace By Fee and the likes in Ledger Live instead of supporting all sorts of Shit coins.

Who the heck would pay almost $300 for that?  There was an expensive device Ledger made before, it was Blue and whoever bought it is now crying as Ledger abandoned it.  What exactly guarantees me this $300 device will not end up the same way?

In the picture OP posted there is almost $1,150 worth of 'Stax'.  Why would I pay this much just to have a few blocks of External Solid State Drive looking hardware stacked on top of each other with magnets.  For at most a few hundred I can get myself a much better storage option for my Bitcoin and even buy a decent amount of Bitcoin with the change too.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

New closed source junk coming from ledger, that is way overpriced, and it's clearly oriented towards shitcoins and NFT circus show.
Paying €279 presale price for this device is a waste of money, but one thing I like is they are using E Ink touchscreen, something I suggested before that hardware wallets should use.
Bluetooth and Wireless is no go for me, and I don't see any real improvements and innovation compared to all other hardware wallets.
To be fair, I will have to wait for this device to be released before saying more, but for this price I would get Passport, Keystone, or several BitBox and Trezor wallets.

Tor is not paying them anything, shitcoins are

My thoughts exactly. And not just harmless gimmicks, but gimmicks which actively compromise your security. Why on Earth would I want my hardware wallet to have my name displayed on it? So if I lose it an attacker knows who to $5 wrench attack to get the PIN? And why would I want it to display NFTs? So I can whip it out in public to show everyone my super expensive and rare NFT and make myself a target for attacks? And I really don't understand the stacking function. They want you to buy a separate device for each wallet? At $280? Lol. Or maybe you and your family members are meant to stack all your devices together in the same place to make it super easy for an attacker to steal them all at once?

Absolute nonsense. They should be focusing on things like Tor support and bitcoin only firmware, but I guess those things don't make money. So instead we get stupid gimmicks.

I’ve gone through a bunch of videos that are now cropping up here and there, until I eventually came across a segment of a video that displays how the new model works (at least a basic glimpse of a TX):
https://youtu.be/XlE0BlXaQ0g?t=605

Other Videos I’ve gone through so far:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct0x31vhORY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlE0BlXaQ0g (encloses the above extract)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Srwsw1VMai4

Personally, and this is just a first impression, I’m not that impressed. My mind is going over scenarios where I’d crack or break the screen, besides having to be wary of battery running down or eventually depleting it, storing it in a larger hiding place, making sure I don’t drop it, and so forth. The flashier it gets, the more delicate it becomes, and I’m happier off with a sturdier solution in any case.

The price is steep, and it doesn’t seem to take away the need to interface with Ledger Device or such either on a laptop or on a mobile phone. The name, if derived from the fact that you can stack them together (through embedded magnets), seems unbefitting, as that is not a feature to enhance by far.

All in all, I do like techy toys, but without further hands-on contact, that is what it seems to me at this stage.

It's evident that they are targeting the younger generations of crypto holders with this fancy-looking device with a big touchscreen that can stay always on for as long as the battery lasts. I don't see anything there that would attract me to it. It's interesting that there is no mention of the internal storage capacity and how many apps can be installed at the same time.

The positive thing is all-around support for both Windows, macOS, Android, and iOS. I agree that stacking the credit card-like devices seems stupid, especially considering their price. The battery seems phenomenal if the technical specifications are true. It can be charged wirelessly and can stay on stand-by for weeks and months depending on how often it gets used.   

They are stingy with the recovery sheets. Apparently, only one is provided in the box. I wonder if it's that difficult/expensive to include at least 2 if 3 is mission impossible? 

Anyone interested in preordering should read the bottom of https://shop.ledger.com/products/ledger-stax.
Ledger still needs to get their new HW wallet certified. If the required certification isn't obtained, I guess the production won't go ahead or it will be delayed. Those who preordered will in that case receive refunds. 

Rather gimmicky, if you ask me.  I don't get the benefits of the magnetic stacking feature, or the wrap-around screen.

It seems like it's full of marketing gimmicks meant to attract those who are unfamiliar with hardware wallets in the first place.  Do they really expect people to buy multiples of these, when you can use the same hardware wallet with multiple accounts?

I may not be their intended demographic, I don't need my hardware wallet to store shitcoins or NFTs.  But if it's easy to use, and given Ledger's marketing budget I wouldn't be surprised to see many of these get sold.

For me the old Nano S is still good enough and I agree that Ledger is again pursuing new directions - of course, they are supposed to bring more income - instead of fixing their actual (and old/known) problems that would keep their existing customers happy.

Should I add that it costs the same as a decent 2022 Android phone? I mean, come on...

Free shipping to my country, but the hardware wallet is expensive with just little to no additional functional features in relation to bitcoin transaction and storage. The secure element is still close source, just normal connections like bluetooth and USB.

Or maybe I am wrong. With a big screen, is it now airgapped in a way I can just only use QR code to make transactions?

When I was looking for wallet that support opt-in RBF, I was disappointed that Ledger Live was not among, I hope Ledger Live will support full RBF.

I wish they hired capable devs (or at least assigned enough manpower) to finally sort out their Ledger Live application, instead focusing on the hardware wallet exterior. But I guess this brings more money and that's what matters in the end.

Ledger is partnering with Tony Fadell (the creator of the iPod) to build a new hardware wallet 'Ledger Stax'.


Your thoughts?

The wallet is going to be available by Q1 2023 but you can pre-order it now: https://shop.ledger.com/products/ledger-stax