Topic: Legal Actions against Nefario (Read 5232 times)

I find fear to be a good factor at times. Like in poker, a good bluff may lead people to give you what you want.

Which is something that happens in teh investing world regularly.  It happened to a union controlled pension fund I belong to twice.  The problem is that con artists at this level are very good, and fund managers are terriblely inexperienced.  My union pension fund never got a dime back, and never will.  This has almost nothing to do with the questionable legal nature of the exchange, but you guys got f*cked and the best outcome that you can expect is to learn from this experience and not gamble with funds that you cannot afford to lose with amature fund managers beyond your ability to punish for wrongdoing.

Remember that Nefario himself was the one who approached the "law". In reality he should have run it the same as silk road and not try to be a fucking glory hound.

Casinos that pay tax are honest and the ones that don't are dishonest. Right?

If we think casinos are honest, why didn't we just go to Vegas and gamble instead of investing in Nef's speculation. I guess we thought it was honest and feasible at 1.5% a week. 

The difference here is we thought we're the "House" where at Vegas we're not.

I'm not judging anyone here If I were to get in to bit-coins when you guys got in I probably would have tried it as well. Its just that I would have figured that it was a gamble. Just like a casino that don't pay tax.

 

I am, but I see that as a second rate choice in terms of chances, efficiency, and speed of a resolution -especially in BTC matters.

Moreover, as you see there is always some genius who assumes that recurring to the violent arm of the law is something that you get from the state "for free" (!). Sorry, but nobody ever asked me if I liked to live under a monopoly of violence by someone else, so if that system gives me something, it does not pay even a fraction of my freedom, and anyway I already paid 1000 times for whatever I get from it by direct and indirect taxes.  

what do you mean? Are you not anymore in favor of legal charges?

Well, I did. Its pretty simple: The price of the stocks would continually go down and you would be paid small amount each day/week. In the end you made 1.5% interest a week but did only get back a small part of your investment. No good business, but also no big rip off because summed up you might get something like 90 to 100% of your investment.
 But thats not even the question here. Its not those businesses giving out stocks that went down. I would totally understand if the  stocks price is going down 99% and I did only loose there. Its my problem believing the hype and get burned by a bubble.
But what happened here is that the issuers actually do want to pay out. They just dont have any data of the former stocks owners because Nefario fucked up! He has full responsibility for that.


Well, unlike you, I have no ideologic hope for the Bitcoin. I dont see it as a counterpart to inflated governemtent money. For me its just a new technology filling a gap. It might get under though because, as seen live, unregulated money attracts many bad people. Funny that you then even say the problem is the greed of the victims and not the stealing and ripping off in the first place. Letting ideology beside its simple: In any unregulated group, people do bad stuff. Thats why there always was and will be some kind of law.

Gambling not beeing honest money is really just your opinion, but if mining is ok, what about the mining funds like gigamining that were listet on GLBSE? All the assets gone under thanks to Nefario. You think its not honest to put together money for mining?

@bixcoin


"We had some sort of euphoric phase where the majority of investors assumed that 1.5% weekly returns are doable in long term - an unquestionable indication that we were in a bubble that was going to burst. Nefario closing down GLBSE only shorten what was inevitable (after Pirate collapsing and taking half of the economy with him)"

Thats a quote from galambo

I find it interesting everyone who took part in this never questioned where the magic bit coins where coming from.

Every time I part took in anything shady I would get burnt.


Besides we all participate in this IDEA of honest money called Bitcoin because government is ripping us off with inflation and then as soon as we are all off their leash we participate in these money making schemes.

Yet we always convince ourselves that its justified at the time, however if we get burned we find it always unexpected.Now to be fair I don't have skin in the game but I have been there many times. I also would not like to be compared to Jesus however he also never did like the money changers either.

Mining and selling your coins is honest money.Paying your taxes is also honest. Gambling is not honest money imo

No. I personally am strongly in favor of sorting out matters privately.
So in my perspective we should try to find an effective way for that.

As I said before: I only file my tax report for this year next year. Also I did not have any winnings at all concerning bitcoins, so I dont even have to spell it out.

Second: According to your logic, nobody who has ever hidden some income from his tax report should be allowed to file any complaint against any crime. Weird world you're living in. Sounds like Jesus' the "throw the first stone" philosophy, but this just doesnt work in the real world!
In legal philosophy, one of the main reasons to punish someone who has done wriong is to avoid this happening too often. I can't see how this shouldnt be applied to bitcoin. Also has nothing to do with the innocence of whom is throwing the first stone.

Actually a conclusion of your statement would be, since we all use underground currency, and did underground things, we should use underground law enforcement if somebody steals ur coins. Thats how it works in brazilian favelas. Though it seems to work quite well (hardly anyone stealing there) that was not the way I wanted to go. Feel free to do so if you wish.

Probably the most lucid post here.

1) You all want to stick it to the tax man and then run to the law when you all get fucked? Seriously wtf is going on here?

To make this anymore simple allow me to add my 2 cents.

2)Anyone have a receipt that you have payed tax that grants you an audience in a court of law?

3)The same law you all decided to circumvent?

4)The same law you all cry to now?



Please

I don't see how GLBSE has any different legal consequences as other virtual currency denominated exchanges like on Second Life, which has an economy much larger than the bitcoin economy.

Having said that, if I played Second Life and my Linden Dollars or other virtual goods I purchased using Linden Dollars was stolen due to the negligence of some operator, I would complain at any level.  Most people did not have a large cost to play on GLBSE so their only opportunity would be class action suits with others.  Since these do not exist in the United Kingdom and virtually impossible anyway for those not in the same country, a better strategy would be to file complaints with government entities such as the  Bureau of Consumer Protection.

I believe it is best to allow those government entities take over the collection procedure.  I know I will be filing complaints on GLBSE partners that reside in my country.

Sorry. I wasn't expecting you to take it personally.

Initially I was thinking this was a cheap lesson, but now I think 250 BTC may be a significant amount of money to you.

Clicking through your posts I see you live in Brazil. Not that it should matter, because for many people in the US this is a significant amount of money. In the US there are more opportunities and so we have less reasons to complain. I'm tired of reading this entitled whining from people who can likely replace their money.

I'm sorry for your loss and hope James does return this money.

However, with a market where transactions are irreversible more care must be taken with who we deal with. On the whole, this community needs to do a lot more blaming the victim until this sentiment sticks.

Sure, that's what I expected from you. Blame the victim for stupidity. Nothing more to say.

This is not exactly true. Maybe half of the assets issued and traded at GLBSE have been mining bonds (/me operating one of them), with the collected coins from IPO being used to crowd-fund mining equipment. Or funding ASIC developments (like ASICMINER). True that the other half of Bitcoin economy was build around Pirate directly (via PPT) or indirectly (investment funds, insurances, etc.), but I'd refuse to accept that those constructs have been set up and operated to fraud investors intentionally.

We had some sort of euphoric phase where the majority of investors assumed that 1.5% weekly returns are doable in long term - an unquestionable indication that we were in a bubble that was going to burst. Nefario closing down GLBSE only shorten what was inevitable (after Pirate collapsing and taking half of the economy with him), but his chosen way to put this to an end effectively harmed the honest people and favoured those with dishonest intentions. Look into the securities section and check who is establishing direct dealings with their investors to pay back their obligations... All others got a great opportunity to wash their hands of responsibility claiming they can't do much without their investor's data


I personally lost more to Pirate than I did with GLBSE, but the later incident shook my confidence in the Bitcoin scene way more: while I was just stupid and greedy enough to give my hard earned coins to Pirate (i.e. it was my responsibility and I kind of deserved what I got), loosing coins with the GLBSE fiasco just left one impression: whom can I trust if not Nefario (who has been one of a handful community members many of us blindly trusted)?


What a pity.

crowdfunding what? Why would you have money in GLBSE? Every single one of its assets was some sort of ponzi scheme or fraud.

You probably deserve to lose your 250 BTC because you're dumb for even having it on the GLBSE in the first place.

I'm taking nefario's side only out of recognition that he was attempting to tackle a technical problem. His misfortune was his incompetence. He didn't realize it was completely illegal and couldn't execute GLBSE properly. He didn't keep good enough records to unwind the service when it came time.

I really cant see why you are taking his side here. He is it who fucked up! Actually I had a balance of 250BC in my account and its gone. Nothing to do with any asset issuers.
Also the asset issuers did not much wrong. Maybe in legal terms, but it actually could be seen as just a way of crowdfunding. Thing is they can't do anything, guess why? Because Nefario fucked up! Thats right! He didnt even contact them yet. And he's the only one who had the data of asset owners.

You're trying to move the focus of this to issuers?
Sure many of them are scammers too, but if a GLBSE user loses btc that way it's his responsibility for not having done enough due diligence/ being greedy and stupid (pirate fund investors).

First off, let's handle things with the person who started all the troubles for most of the users, that's Nefario and his stab-in-the-back GLBSE closure.
Then, if/when users have been returned BTC and proof of the assets held, other procedures can take place agains select issuers.
I can assure the asset issuers of the assets I held will own up to dividends at least, once proof is made available.

From what I understand he passed these funds through to fraudulent asset issuers. He was just a middleman. It's a bad idea, but he didn't really profit that much himself.

I hope we can identify and pursue the asset issuers to recover the investors' money.

If he doesn't pay back a dime nefario won't get anything out of this. Perhaps a couple thousand bitcoins, but thats less than a years salary for a normal person.

Ideally you would pursue the asset issuer. If they can't be located I guess we can assume it is nefario.

You must be kidding? Misappropriation of funds is a crime and should be punished by law. Nothing to do with GLBSE beeing illegal. He just ran away with our funds. Thats how I see it.

I am not saying he's dealing with this well, in fact I have said he has dealt with all of this pretty poorly.
I am not his messenger, I am not going to sit and defend James, but you asked for contact details, so I just added that I could give you the info

I think this is counter productive, and that trying to sue James will only lead to more delays and maybe no return of assets at all, which is why I am trying to mediate to reach a better solution.
//DeaDTerra

Sorry, but you're being ridiculous.

Communication? He has not communicated shit to users or asset holders, except the ones in his scammy inner circle.
And we have to swallow all the shit that is posted here as "official" based on private phonecalls and other unverifiable sources.

Threats? Well, first he stabbed everyone in the back, closing and withholding all your without btc/assets without even a warning - that is worse than any threat.
And at any rate, he's resorting to threats and blackmail too, now the website says he'll only resume processing account closures when all the btc he sprayed around comes flying back.

So, no thanks, keep your details for yourself, there are enough around already.
And if James wants to talk, he's been notified by email.

That's all folks, let the games begin.


BTW personally I don't think this is the way to get my assets back.
But there is no other way, so fuck it, let's get James into some hot action at least, he brought it on himself.

You do as you which, but I believe you will get nothing from taking legal action against Nefario and I think it can be solved with communication better then with threats.
//DeaDTerra

I think nefario's life since leaving Sun Systems is a worse punishment than any government can place on him.

Nefario sacrificed a lot in his personal life to make GLBSE.

It's sad because no matter how good he made it the fundamental thing GLBSE was doing was illegal.

I'm glad he decided to step back and reevaluate what he was doing.

I hope his very public involvement in bitcoin has not made him unemployable.

talk is cheap.
Time to walk the walk.

If anyone is serious about taking legal action and would like to get a hold of Nefario please pm me with details and if I am convinced then I will give you his phone number for easy access and maybe you can solve it that way instead of having to take legal action...
//DeaDTerra

I support the action and sent James an email letting him know about this, in case he wants to do something right for once and explain what, how and when he's going to finally clear this mess. Not hoping for any twists in the plot though. Not even that he reads the email.

Thanks for those. I will defenitely send a fraud alert on monday. Please til then anyone who supports this, send me a PM, anyone who has good reasons for me not donig this, please send it here publicly. Also I would like all informatin on James that you have so far, like Full Name, Adress, Date of birth, telefone and so on.

I take the risk to go down together since I still dont think I have done something wrong. I will go for "Fraud to do with a financial investment, e.g. purchasing stocks or shares, a mortgage or an investment scheme" -> "The victim invested in something not covered above"
 

At this point I vote for going down together.

Maybe it is possible to get it done for free.
This is US-based, don't think they'll go for UK stuff? Maybe.
http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx

The best would be to get hold of a UK-based agency.
[edit: here is the link for the UK agency:]
http://www.actionfraud.police.uk/

And well... we might all do down together, but at least no one will be laughing, right James?

Or I might just spend some more, just to see this guy behind bars!

Well, at least you got him the scammer tag. That should make him really angry, right?

Sad.

Thanks. Can you please tell me how I can get in contact with James? I had 250+ BC in my account and he doesnt even think he should write me or respond my email. Instead he is doing very silly things with all our money.

See what I am saying. This guy seems to be the greatest douchebag on earth. He is sitting on our BC + Assets and does everything wrong that could be done wrong. From the start.

He just double paid the first round of paybacks accidentally check your account maybe you already have 2x what you were owed lol

Well then take legal action against Nefario. Get a lawyer, have him send a letter to Nefario and I bet you'll get your coins back.

The tax thing is my problem. Til now I only lost money, if important at all, I would have to pay less tax. Also I will only have to declare this years tax next year. Also I am not aware that I will have to declare Bitcoins as long as I didnt turn them back into money.

I was not aware, that he is paying out big amounts as stated above. This of course changes the situation. But I really can't see why this is taking so long. Also I did not get one single email. To get my information I have to look at this forum and trust people who say that got paid. I don't know any of you personally, so what is this worth?
The way this is taken care of is so rouge, it can't only pe unprofessionalism. What does it cost to send an email to every client, updating status? Or at least confirm email adress. I can not even be sure if I didnt put in a typo on my request. Some people report they got emails but no BC, others got BC but no email. Other like me didnt get anything. This is simply not the contract I agreed to with GLBSE, thus legal action might be required.
I also think I did not do any illegal activity. Comparing this to buying drugs makes no sense. Possession of drugs is illegal. I bet you can't even spell out what exactly illegal it could be that I did. What I did was sending value to somebody who promised he gives it back anytime I want. Easy like that. We are talking about the BC lying in my account here. The guy just took them and doesnt give them back, nor does he respond to me or show any effort he would. End of story.

So you provided to them all the information they needed to ensure that you complied with tax obligations?  Asked them for regular statements to ensure that you can accurately report your income for tax purposes?  Have included your GLBSE "investments" on any financial statements requiring you to disclose your income and/or assets?

You can certainly claim that you didn't know GLBSE was an illegal securities exchange.  Mounting an argument that you weren't using it for any illegal purpose might be considerably harder, though because you're absolutely expected to be aware of your own taxation liabilities and to keep adequate records to verify your income and investments.  "I didn't know" doesn't fly when it comes to taxation offences.

And yes, it's ridiculous to even be talking about legal action against somebody who is actively paying.

If you just bought into some securities you can claim ignorance but not if you operated a security there. The court will ask you what reasonable due diligence you took to ensure the exchange was legal, which is probably none. This is like trying to sue a drug dealer who sold you fake drugs and then telling the court a story you assumed it was legal.

Isn't he returning coins if you hand over all your proof of identity? Though this screams entrapment

Ignorance of a law does not make you immune from it.

My part in it? I was not aware at all that this was an illegal securities exchange. So now the defrauded person makes part of the fraud because he "supported" it? You can argue that I was stupid by trusting GLBSE, but not that I made part of any fraud system.

Lol trying to sue an illegal securities exchange and actually admitting your part in it to the feds. GLBSE should have been .onion since day 1 with an anonymous yet somewhat trusted operator who had a decent OTC rating but no transactions that could be tied to an identity.

 

Payment claims with TaxID:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1270908

You might also want to read the GLBSE shareholder meeting regarding the closure:

I received over 700 Bitcoins back from GLBSE
I have also heard several other people confirm transactions over 100 BTC, I recommend calling James and talking with him before any legal action is taken.
//DeaDTerra
[/quote]

Thanks for the info. When did you receive those?
[/quote]
2012-10-16 13:48
//DeaDTerra

agree

[/quote]
I received over 700 Bitcoins back from GLBSE
I have also heard several other people confirm transactions over 100 BTC, I recommend calling James and talking with him before any legal action is taken.
//DeaDTerra
[/quote]

Thanks for the info. When did you receive those?

I received over 700 Bitcoins back from GLBSE
I have also heard several other people confirm transactions over 100 BTC, I recommend calling James and talking with him before any legal action is taken.
//DeaDTerra

I am in Brazil. Wouldn't help too much.

I would spend 14 BTC to send Nefario in jail. That is 10% of my GLBSE assets and most of what I still got.
But we need to find someone worth of our trust to manage the money and UK based to find and work with a lawyer.

bixcoin

Where are you located?  It will probably be easier to pursue an officer in your own jurisdiction.

Ok,
I waited another week and didnt receive any Bitcoins. Also I read of nobody who had any amount of 100BC or more to have received his funds. I read about a lot of people with 0.6BC or so that got their funds back. For me this looks like they are buying time.
Even if you have to go through 800 accounts manually, it should be easily done in a week, so I still think this is a major fraud going on.
I put in 50BC to get legal help and process Nefario. But we need more than this. Please, other victims, join, lets get together at least 200BC to start and do something. I can't believe everybody let just happen this.
Those who say it wouldn't be worth it, can you explain why?
All the account assets are there in Nefarios hands! There is even people getting overpaid (1BC instead of 0.6BC), that means there is no caution at all about what happens to our funds. Also it seems Nefario is using our funds to pay his lawyer to safe his ass. Let's stop him now and get our money back!
They had enough time to pay us back. Let's take action!

No significant assets? At least all Bitcoins that where just lying around at the date of closure. I guess thats more than 5000BC.
Why do you think there is less?

Thats exactly what Im saying here. I just want to gather with other victims.

And just as pointless to spend money on legal fees to sue people who don't have significant assets.

Why don't you take action !
Get a lawyer, go to the police, hire a private investigator...

 

I have followed the latest scams in this community and actually always found it ridiculous how people are being ripped off and do nothing but discuss about a scammer tag.

This time I myself lost some coins and also access to some assets. As for now, GLBSE didnt contact me, promised on their site to reveal whats going on and didnt, promised to pay out and didnt. Nobody has any clear information and I call this a major fraud. My bitcoins are gone, the company I left them with is unreachable. That's reason enough to file a legal case.

I would like to gather with other victims of this scam, put some money together, pay a lawyer and see that we get the most out of it.
Also I would like to gather personal data of people responsible, like nefario and other. So any information about their full name, adress, complices, please public in this thread if you agree with me.

It's been a week now, several promises broken, and such an unprofessional politic of information makes it more and more unlikely that anybody gets anything back by waiting.
Also Nefario made money with his business. It's not like he did us a favor and it went wrong and we should be pacient. He had a business running, it went wrong and he gave us a "f..k u all, I better safe my ass".
Wake up people, you have been ripped of! Take action!