Legality or Illegality of using other peoples computer to mine coins

ranlo

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Quote from: Bitcoininspace on June 22, 2015, 05:15:33 AM

Ofcourse it's illegal if the other party doesn't know about it. But then again what they won't know won't matter to them. So as long as you keep it a secret and don't rape their cpu too hard (so they won't be able to use the pc properly) then sure go ahead if you can do it in secret.

I wouldn't say "illegal." Unethical? Sure. But you could easily just add a ToS (which nobody seems to read) that notifies them, and then even if it DID go to court, I doubt anything would happen.

That said, @OP: even if you had millions of computers mining for 12 hours a day, you'd make almost nothing. You would literally earn MORE off working for $6 an hour than you would off spending the same amount of time trying to write the code to do the mining.

azguard

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Quote from: Amph on June 30, 2015, 01:22:54 AM

Quote from: medhat on June 28, 2015, 07:24:57 AM

There is no problem in mining through regular computers, but the problem is that this may hurt the very potential of the device where (graphics card and processor)
You must warn

he will only use a samll portion of the power of their computer/graphic, it will no use 100 or soemthing, or they computer will slow down too much

using 10% of many computer will cover the mining already

True. I have in my office 8 PCs and we are limited to single port mining (must say that i only found doge and dash pols that support this particular port). All machines work but with no effort so much ass ass think it will be mainly cuz internet is limited. Never the less this may be useful if everything is ok you dont have to pay electricity and you dont you your machines. Off course this can be only done if all people in office cooperate like in mine case.

Amph

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Quote from: medhat on June 28, 2015, 07:24:57 AM

There is no problem in mining through regular computers, but the problem is that this may hurt the very potential of the device where (graphics card and processor)
You must warn

he will only use a samll portion of the power of their computer/graphic, it will no use 100 or somethig, or they computer will slow down too much

using 10% of many computer will cover the mining already

GuessWho?

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Quote from: peligro on June 23, 2015, 08:41:41 AM

You arent the first with that idea. But i would not suggest following it.

First thing is that its not worth hit anymore. Even when you let a big amount of browser work for you, its too few return.

Second thing is that there were already people sued for that. Since of course your users will find it strange why their browser is lagging so hard.

I suggest better not try this out. Risk and reward are simply in no good relation.

I agree. It's just not worth it.

I thought of the same idea but found that it's not worth the lag your site will put on the visitors computer...You want them to come back. Wink

medhat

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There is no problem in mining through regular computers, but the problem is that this may hurt the very potential of the device where (graphics card and processor)
You must warn

RealBitcoin

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Yea but if their pc gets devastaded and their cpu burned, then you are liable for those material losses.

So you might earn 2-3$ daily from it, but you will get the bills of Alice and Bob sending you 600€ bills to buy them a new PC.

Not worth it.

Bitdonator

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Its so simple:

if people know that you use their PC to mine coins, its legal....

if people DONT know that u mine coins with their PC, its illegal

ObscureBean

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If you want to stay legal and ethical you'd need to let the visitors know exactly what you're doing and how much of their system resources you gonna be tapping into. Mining can be strenuous on hardware, especially on old pcs. Last year, Google took down an android app that was secretly mining coins for it's owner Cheesy

shorena

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Quote from: pooya87 on June 26, 2015, 02:20:38 AM

@shorena
it is in Ten Commandments Cheesy

1) Thou shalt not interfere with the works and files of other people.
2) Thou shalt not sneak around in other people's computer files.
3) Thou shalt not use a computer to steal and do negative things.
4) Thou shalt not use a computer to bear false witness.
5) Thou shalt not copy or use proprietary software for which you have not paid.
6) Thou shalt not use other people's computer resources with no authorization or proper compensation.
7) Thou shalt not appropriate other people's intellectual output.
Cool

Thou shalt think about the social consequences of the program you are writing or the system you are designing.
9) Thou shalt always use a computer in ways that ensure consideration and respect and safety for your fellow humans.

But they get compensation, whether or not thats proper depends on each individual user.

Quote from: pooya87 on June 26, 2015, 02:20:38 AM

but in seriously i am not a law student so i can not tell you where exactly in the law says that but i say this because of incidents like this:
"Gaming Company Fined $1 Million For Secretly Using Players' Computers To Mine Bitcoin"
this was a 2013 event. google it and you might find the law that covers it.

This is to odolvlobo as well.

I am no law student either, but the CS case is completely different. They forced participants of a tournament to install software in order to detect possible cheaters. The software in question did not openly state that it was also mining bitcoins and the software in question did mine bitcoins while it was not "used", as in while they did not play CS, but ~~watched porn~~ browsed imgur to relax for the next game. Thats a big difference. The way I understand OP they are stating that the CPU (possibly GPU) is used to mine certain coins, be that in the small print or a big red warning does not matter IMHO. If you accept terms without reading them, well prepare to get paypaled. Additionally OP is not injecting any software that runs in the background into the users machine, but once the browser tab is closed and the user stops playing the mining algorithm stops running.

pooya87

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@shorena
it is in Ten Commandments Cheesy

1) Thou shalt not interfere with the works and files of other people.
2) Thou shalt not sneak around in other people's computer files.
3) Thou shalt not use a computer to steal and do negative things.
4) Thou shalt not use a computer to bear false witness.
5) Thou shalt not copy or use proprietary software for which you have not paid.
6) Thou shalt not use other people's computer resources with no authorization or proper compensation.
7) Thou shalt not appropriate other people's intellectual output.
Cool

Thou shalt think about the social consequences of the program you are writing or the system you are designing.
9) Thou shalt always use a computer in ways that ensure consideration and respect and safety for your fellow humans.

but in seriously i am not a law student so i can not tell you where exactly in the law says that but i say this because of incidents like this:
"Gaming Company Fined $1 Million For Secretly Using Players' Computers To Mine Bitcoin"
this was a 2013 event. google it and you might find the law that covers it.

odolvlobo

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Quote from: shorena on June 26, 2015, 01:12:10 AM

Please state the law you think this covers. Just because you think it should be prohibited by law to use someone elses computing power without their explicit consent does not mean it is prohibited by any law. In fact I think its impossible as the disclaimer and the display of the terms of service is already using your computer power to display itself. And it could have the same risk of overheating your machine as other scripts or programms that run on your computer without your explicit consent.

I don't know if pooya87 is right about what makes it legal or not, but I think these are the laws you are looking for:

Quote from: http://nj.gov/oag/newsreleases13/E-Sports_Complaint_Consent-Judgment.pdf

In April 2073, Defendants E-Sports Entertainment, LLC ("ESEA" or the
'oCompany"), Eric Thunberg ("Thunberg") and Sean Hunczak ("Hunczak") (collectively
"Defendants") created and developed malicious software code that infected the computers of
thousands of ESEA customers ("end-users"). Using ESEA's videogame anti-cheat software
program ("ESEA Software"), from April 12, 2013 through April 30, 2013, at least Defendant
Hunczak, downloaded the malicious software code onto end-users' computers to create an
unauthorized computer network for the purpose of mining for bitcoins ("ESEA Botnet").
...
Defendants' conduct constitutes deceptive and unconscionable commercial
practices pursuant to the New Jersey Consumer Fraud Act, N.J.S.A. 56:8-1 et seq. ("CFA") and
unauthorized access pursuant to the New Jersey Computer Related Offenses Act, N.J.S.A.
2A:384-1 et seq. ("CROA").

shorena

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Quote from: pooya87 on June 26, 2015, 12:30:59 AM

Quote from: ajareselde on June 24, 2015, 11:25:47 AM

Quote from: 98problems on June 24, 2015, 07:39:42 AM

how can it be legal doing that? it would use up their hardware, its the same like it would be legal to use others money, you would use it up and thats it

I'ts legal for the reason because op is making it clear that they are participating in this mining by warning the beforehand.
It's not like he is trying to force them into silent mining, but rather it would give them reward in form of game currency to allow them to actually play the game he is offering.

cheers

it is not legal unless he asks them to accept some kind of terms and services and in those terms mentions clearly what he is doing (using their cpu power to mine an altcoin and earn money this way) and also clearly warns them about the risks (overheating, and any kind of damage that might cause their hardware) and gets their agreement on the matter before attempting it.

Please state the law you think this covers. Just because you think it should be prohibited by law to use someone elses computing power without their explicit consent does not mean it is prohibited by any law. In fact I think its impossible as the disclaimer and the display of the terms of service is already using your computer power to display itself. And it could have the same risk of overheating your machine as other scripts or programms that run on your computer without your explicit consent.

pooya87

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Quote from: ajareselde on June 24, 2015, 11:25:47 AM

Quote from: 98problems on June 24, 2015, 07:39:42 AM

how can it be legal doing that? it would use up their hardware, its the same like it would be legal to use others money, you would use it up and thats it

I'ts legal for the reason because op is making it clear that they are participating in this mining by warning the beforehand.
It's not like he is trying to force them into silent mining, but rather it would give them reward in form of game currency to allow them to actually play the game he is offering.

cheers

it is not legal unless he asks them to accept some kind of terms and services and in those terms mentions clearly what he is doing (using their cpu power to mine an altcoin and earn money this way) and also clearly warns them about the risks (overheating, and any kind of damage that might cause their hardware) and gets their agreement on the matter before attempting it.

ajareselde

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Quote from: 98problems on June 24, 2015, 07:39:42 AM

how can it be legal doing that? it would use up their hardware, its the same like it would be legal to use others money, you would use it up and thats it

I'ts legal for the reason because op is making it clear that they are participating in this mining by warning the beforehand.
It's not like he is trying to force them into silent mining, but rather it would give them reward in form of game currency to allow them to actually play the game he is offering.

cheers

98problems

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how can it be legal doing that? it would use up their hardware, its the same like it would be legal to use others money, you would use it up and thats it

ajareselde

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Satoshi is rolling in his grave. #bitcoin

Quote from: Codesmith on June 24, 2015, 02:15:13 AM

The question is not if they will agree , its if even they agree , is there any possibility of getting sued , they might charge me with something like damaging their computer or so I am not sure.

In theory, they could sue you for even unrelated damage to their hardware due to oveheating,etc. The way around this is by having a very good and detailed disclaimer poping up
once they visit the site.
Regarding profits, i'm away from CPU mining coins for a long time, so i wouldn't know the profitability, but imho, it probably wouldn't be worth it.

cheers

shorena

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Quote from: ranochigo on June 24, 2015, 02:51:12 AM

Quote from: Codesmith on June 24, 2015, 02:15:13 AM

The question is not if they will agree , its if even they agree , is there any possibility of getting sued , they might charge me with something like damaging their computer or so I am not sure.

Possibly not, just add this in the terms and conditions. [Mining is resource intensive, I will not be responsible for any damage done to your computer. In no event shall we be held liable for any damage to your computer.] If they agree, they can't sue you since they know that you are doing cryptomining and it is resource intensive.

Well, if parts of the terms and conditions are violating laws they are nil. I would still go the route and make a very obvious warning like:

WARNING! Using this website / game / whatever is using extensive resources of your computer. It is your responsibility to make sure your machine is sufficiently cooled while using this website / game / whatever. We take no responsibility yadda yadda yadda. We decided to go this route instead of the usual advertising model to make sure we... yadda yadda yadda

Honestly its probably not even needed. I have read many EULA and terms for different video games and there never was a warning that the game might put the system under heavy load. Its implicit. Why should it be different for browser games? Hell, on some systems imgur causes heavy load, I dont see them issuing a warning either.

The Counter Strike issue is a completely different issue because that was indeed software that used your machine while it should not have been running. This is completely different. If you want to be extra careful you can offer an opt-out version that is running heavy advertising.

ranochigo

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Quote from: Codesmith on June 24, 2015, 02:15:13 AM

The question is not if they will agree , its if even they agree , is there any possibility of getting sued , they might charge me with something like damaging their computer or so I am not sure.

Possibly not, just add this in the terms and conditions. [Mining is resource intensive, I will not be responsible for any damage done to your computer. In no event shall we be held liable for any damage to your computer.] If they agree, they can't sue you since they know that you are doing cryptomining and it is resource intensive.

Codesmith

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The question is not if they will agree , its if even they agree , is there any possibility of getting sued , they might charge me with something like damaging their computer or so I am not sure.

Amph

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Quote from: Codesmith on June 24, 2015, 02:03:37 AM

I wish noone after 2013 learn what a bitcoin is.

There are toooooo many idiots who log in here and pour shit out of their fingertips.

I spesifically mentioned that both me and the visitor will agree on such an agreement and yet there are still too many idiots talking about if I do it in secret I will get in trouble , one retard even mentioned about a gaming company who secretly mined through other peoples computers...

My question was if we are both willing and the visitor clicks on an agreement , is that binding? Can I say he clicked on it and be done with it? Or can he sue me EVEN after clicking 'agree the terms and conditions' ?

then why you're talking about legality? if there is their consensus, it is obvious that this whole thing is legal there isn't much to discuss about

Codesmith

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I wish noone after 2013 learn what a bitcoin is.

There are toooooo many idiots who log in here and pour shit out of their fingertips.

I spesifically mentioned that both me and the visitor will agree on such an agreement and yet there are still too many idiots talking about if I do it in secret I will get in trouble , one retard even mentioned about a gaming company who secretly mined through other peoples computers...

My question was if we are both willing and the visitor clicks on an agreement , is that binding? Can I say he clicked on it and be done with it? Or can he sue me EVEN after clicking 'agree the terms and conditions' ?

Xialla

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/dev/null

not sure, if simply illegal is correct term, but it is at least non-ethical and and totally unprofitable. you are risking loss of your visitors and somebody, who will find out what are you doing and start doing nasty things with your site (bombing ads, ddos, reporting to authorities or attempt to hack)

is better find other ways how to earn btc than this one:)

jonnybravo0311

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Mine at Jonny's Pool

You're telling your users up front, "I'm going to utilize your computer's resources while you're here. In exchange for this, I'm providing you compensation in the form of in-game currency." If they agree to the terms, they've willingly entered into it and are basically renting you their CPU/GPU for the time they're on your site.

I don't see anything wrong with the approach. Think of things like SETI and BOINC. You donate your CPU/GPU to help find ET or a cure for cancer. With your idea, people are being compensated for your usage of their resources.

ikydesu

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Quote from: Rude Boy on June 22, 2015, 05:43:12 AM

Dear OP, i think you'd seen this blog/site visitor to miner feature in minergate right?

-snip-
~Rude Boy

I thinking same as you Grin

because i ever use this method to my friend computer, but i just do that once Grin

It's illegal, because you take away their rights, include: bandwidth, CPU/GPU usage, their coins.

It's remember me to eobot mining software which can do hidden mining auto(but eobot is scam possibly), i ever use the method too LOL.

~iki

peligro

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You arent the first with that idea. But i would not suggest following it.

First thing is that its not worth hit anymore. Even when you let a big amount of browser work for you, its too few return.

Second thing is that there were already people sued for that. Since of course your users will find it strange why their browser is lagging so hard.

I suggest better not try this out. Risk and reward are simply in no good relation.

bitbaby

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If you do it secretly without informing the visitors of the site that you're using their CPU power to mine then it would be illegal but if you explain everything right from the start, when they enter the site, than it's up to the user to decide whether they want to go in or not and then it won't be considered illegal. I don't think you'll be able to get any profit, most users will get a huge lag in their computer if the CPU is hitting 100% and they would get out sooner than you think.

I think there were sites like this earlier, don't remember their names and I knew something was fishy because as soon as I start using them my cpu meter would show full usage. I blocked those sites from that moment on.

pooya87

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it is illegal and your visitors are going to find this out eventually and that is the time when you are going to get into so much trouble. because you were abusing your visitors trust and using their computer without their knowledge and agreement.

techgeek

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this reminds me of some kid doing this with school computers mining doge coin.

I heard it way back when I forget, but the kid had it where it mined it after hours. Basically pure profit.

odolvlobo

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This might answer your questions:

GAMING COMPANY FINED $1M FOR TURNING CUSTOMERS INTO SECRET BITCOIN ARMY

azguard

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Quote from: Bitcoininspace on June 22, 2015, 05:15:33 AM

Ofcourse it's illegal if the other party doesn't know about it. But then again what they won't know won't matter to them. So as long as you keep it a secret and don't rape their cpu too hard (so they won't be able to use the pc properly) then sure go ahead if you can do it in secret.

This is good in some companies while they off work you can mine till next morning and again on weekend you can mine whole day long. Further more you wont pay electricity bill Grin

ranochigo

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Quote from: Codesmith on June 22, 2015, 05:14:09 AM

I would like to ask the legality of this ;

If I own a website and through that website , I use every visitors computer while they are visiting (not after not before , no virus just WHILE they are visiting) to mine certain CPU coins (well it would be great if I can find a multipool to mine the most profitable CPU coin) would it be illegal in anyway?

This will not be against their will of course , think of a game , the more you stay on that page and let me mine coins with your computer , the higher game currency you will get to play the game. That way when you are away , you open that page and let me mine and when you comeback you can play the game and be better then when you were last playing. Kinda like fremium offer with many mobile game apps.

edit : also do you think this would make any coin at all? depending on how many users of course but for example how much do you think 50 people at a time would make everyday?

Letting them know about how much of the resources will be used and asking them to agree to the agreement could minimize any implications. If I'm not wrong, you have to design the entire thing yourself. I don't know of any premade webpage CPU miners for all the algorithms available. It can surely make some money but don't expect it to be very high. Altcoins are highly volatile and the hashrate depends on how good you optimize the scripts.

Hexcoin

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So you are thinking to create a landofbitcoin like site? I think it is not illegal as long as your users know what you are doing with them in exchange of some bitcoins

Borisz

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If the users would know for sure that their computer is being used for something unrelated to the site (prior to actually being used), then -although not a lawyer- I wouldn't think it would be illegal. This would only work if the user clicked a button like "I agree that Bob can use my computer's resources for an unrelated task while I'm visiting his site" and then the mining or whatever started and not with a hidden message in the FAQ section.

Although, I don't really see why any user would allow you to use their system resources. It is like trying to create a botnet of willing users. If you do it in exchange for a game currency, well...no clue. Why don't ask them to pay you a bit of money via an SMS or similar?

shorena

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No I dont escrow anymore.

I dont think you would be violating any laws, but I would suggest that you are open about it. The simplest solution would be a small disclaimer the user has to agree to first.

Anirban Sarkar

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No, you just return few of your profit to them. They could earn more money by themselves.

Amph

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this reminded me of that case of counterstrike, were the developers were using their computer for mining bitcoin, when there were big tournaments and tons of players playing

then they returned everything, when one user discovered the whole thing

i think you can make it legal, if you declare it and you keep only a small % on the total profit

Herbert2020

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it is definitely against the law to use your visitors computing power without their knowledge. you have to at least tell your website's visitor in a warning that you are doing that. like the one that pops up on some websites to let you know they are using cookies.

Codesmith

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But the trick is , which none of you accept , I am asking , it is mutually agreed upon. They give me the right to mine from their computer , I give them game currency . win-win.

Rude Boy

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Dear OP, i think you'd seen this blog/site visitor to miner feature in minergate right?

And from my thought, its illegal to covert your blog/site visitor into a miner of yours. Because, you didn't even asked them to use their browser as a miner.

~Rude Boy

Codesmith

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I have NO idea which coin is still profitable , thats why I wished for a multipool for CPU coins Cheesy

Also , they will know , it will be for the game currency , its mutually agreed upon. They will click something like 'agree terms and contidions' type of thingy.

Bitcoininspace

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Ofcourse it's illegal if the other party doesn't know about it. But then again what they won't know won't matter to them. So as long as you keep it a secret and don't rape their cpu too hard (so they won't be able to use the pc properly) then sure go ahead if you can do it in secret.

Codesmith

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I would like to ask the legality of this ;

If I own a website and through that website , I use every visitors computer while they are visiting (not after not before , no virus just WHILE they are visiting) to mine certain CPU coins (well it would be great if I can find a multipool to mine the most profitable CPU coin) would it be illegal in anyway?

This will not be against their will of course , think of a game , the more you stay on that page and let me mine coins with your computer , the higher game currency you will get to play the game. That way when you are away , you open that page and let me mine and when you comeback you can play the game and be better then when you were last playing. Kinda like fremium offer with many mobile game apps.

edit : also do you think this would make any coin at all? depending on how many users of course but for example how much do you think 50 people at a time would make everyday?

Topic: Legality or Illegality of using other peoples computer to mine coins (Read 3138 times)