Topic: Lets prove to the world that money is an addiction on non-scarce things (Read 1557 times)

I think that your conception about the addiction from money on non-scarce things may be right but only for the few which have it in abundance and think only to find ways or create new ones how to spend it. But it is not addiction for someone which count every cent to arrive the end of the month. the second one use its money every day for the everyday bread which is a non-scarce thing. But I cannot call him addicted and I cannot call its behavior addiction. Without its everyday bread he and his family probably will be dead.

Then, I cannot accept for meaning about the importance of the owner if ideas and the value given to the idea depending from the being patented or not. First, patent or not patent its idea, the owner and creator of ideas is the most rare and precious kind of human being. There it will be no any kind of development or normal and civilized life without this "race" of people. They must be protected and honored in every possible form. Never and never this kind of beings will be in excess. More are, more must be and more rare are. They are the beginning of something new not imagined by no one before. They are the begging of a new life, new qualitative life.

You may think that Satoshi Nakamoto (to name one example near of both of us) is a scarce thing because have not patented its idea. And for sure you think that Bill Gates is not a scarce thing because has patented its ideas. For me are the same because everyone has given to the world great inventions. But what would tell you if the first of those, which have not taken any patent for its idea, act or acted as the second one? In this case its invention will be not more scarce? So the value of bitcoin as scarce or not scarce thing depends from the fact that if this invention is patented or not? You can understand yourself that is not so. Bitcoin have the same value with or without patent. So the owner of ideas (with or without patents) are never something "already enough". Are always few, very, very few. The most scarce thing in this world. Always it will be so.

One problem is embedded in the uncertainties of life: no one really knows how much saving is really needed for retirement, even if you knew exactly what you wanted to buy in retirement, and how much they would always cost.  So people chase money for security.

Money in the economy provides many benefits, including making division of labor possible, giving individuals the flexibility to make all kinds of personal tradeoffs, etc.

The real problem is that modern money isn't really market-based but centrally planned.  This central planning is advertised to stabilize the economy but is really designed to benefit the elites who receive "free" wealth and power by issuing money and related assets, and using state power to prop up their values artificially.  When the over-valued assets eventually crash, economic pain goes to everyone, and central planning is further justified as the only way to stimulate the economy and save everyone's jobs.

For this system to sustain itself, the elites must somehow make money valuable, for most people (or they would derive little power from issuing money and debt.)  This is a major side effect of the system and seems to be what you're mostly talking about.  The fundamental mechanism for "achieving" this was already noted by Thomas Jefferson, who said that, with a central bank in place, the elites would be able to exploit the public through both inflation *and* deflation.

I don't know whether I should call that as "greed" but sometimes the primary motivator is not because we earn to fulfill our needs but because our mind has become so obsessed in it that we forget the ultimate objective as to why and how. I never take bitcoin as an investment. If it does become big, yeah, then so what? I'm not going to exchange it back to fiat because it will mean losing what I believe in the first place.

It's true that large quantities of dollars are for the most part represented digitally, but they don't have to be. They can be converted to physical form. Bitcoin can't. In terms of benefit-detriment, this is one area where Bitcoin is less versatile than fiat.

There is one negative mark against crypto for "sovereign".
I don't really think "physical" is a necessary attribute.
If you have a million dollars, most probably all you have is an entry against your bitcoin and not physical bills. 

Good point. That's actually a major weakness. On a related note, there's a shared delusion by bitcoin enthusiasts, especially on this board, that if fiat collapses, bitcoin is going to suddenly be worth thousands of dollars. This is ridiculous to believe because if fiat collapses, it means the world economy is falling apart and there is likely mass civil unrest. No possible way bitcoin can thrive in an environment like that. If the USD goes to zero, bitcoin goes right along with it because bitcoin will have even less utility than it does now in a time of mass civil unrest and economic collapse. The only thing that gives bitcoin any value is economic stability, that people feel secure enough to speculate on it.

"Tradable on mount Everest for a hot chocolate": this is ultimately true.
Let's not forget BTC is bound to the Internet and the availability of it.
No Internet, no BTC.

Let's not forget it.

There is just one problem with that chart. It is clearly built to make bitcoin look good. The points that are on there are mainly traits of bitcoin that are projected on the other two.

I don't see "physical" on there for instance or "tradable on mount everest for a hot chocolate" for instance.

It only summarizes postives for bitcoin, not the negatives, which imo should also be done.

As a follow-up on just how unreasonable a billion dollar bitcoin price is, M2 - which is the broadest measure of money in the US economy - is 12.138 trillion dollars. There are currently 14.7 million bitcoins. If each one was worth a billion dollars, that would be 14,700 trillion dollars, or 1200 times the amount of money currently in circulation. Simply put, there aren't enough USD in the world to even make a billion dollar bitcoin price possible.

This is a great chart, I'll be saving this for future reference. But the idea that bitcoin should be at a billion dollars is the type of statement that proves how untethered to reality the bitcoin community is. Just because bitcoin may be an improvement over fiat does not give it such a ridiculous value.

For the predictable source, I am quite worried for future after see this article
http://www.vox.com/2015/8/18/9168977/bitcoin-constitutional-crisis
Changing the limit is easy — if everyone agrees
They have intention to change the limit of supply of bitcoin?!
The development of bitcoin with just such a short time of history, they already have this intention?

Those features are true about cryptos in general. So maybe it will be some alt (not Bitcoin) that will be worth a billion dollars as you propose. 

money is a medium of exchange to meet the needs of
human life, but now it becomes the purpose of life

Giant ass solar flare can completely fry every single electronic and everything that uses electricity. Although not having bitcoin would be the least of our worries if that happened.

Also, the Bitcoin aren't gone, maybe you can't access them for a while, but they're still there when you get your power back. Unlike dollars which might have been destroyed in a fire.

great post my friend

'they' are trying this whole, its the blockchain, not bitcoin thats important, right now
wanting to build their own blockchains
good luck with that lol

The electricity would need to go out WORLDWIDE. So what if it goes off in Haiti? the network keeps working. If you have your stuff on a bank and it gets flooded, you couldn't use that stuff as well. With Bitcoin you can save your stuff online, have several backups etc, it's better.

One correction, bitcoin is not very durable. If we lose electricity we lose all ability to transact with bitcoin - so in a society crisis situation, bitcoin becomes useless. Think about Haiti after the earthquake a few years back, no electricity for a long time. If everyone was using bitcoin their funds would be frozen until electricity was restored.

And the only think keeping 1 Bitcoin = 1 Billion dollars is that not enough people want to use it - there isn't enough supply.

I think everyone knows why money motivates them. It's because money is the medium our society has agreed to use to exchange for goods and services. If I need my car fixed I can give someone money exchange for that service. If I need clothes I can give someone money for those goods. If someone needs my services/skills they can hire me in exchange for money.

Money is easier to use then a barter system because I don't have to need whatever you have to give (as I would in a barter system), money becomes a standard format of currency that can be accepted by everyone at any time.

The manipulation of the money supply and debt to finance things that Governments or people can't afford is bad and we've all been a victim to it. The best thing we can do is limit the debt we use in our personal lives and then preach that Governments do the same.

What do you mean by using bitcoin as a way to motivate each other?
Isn't that exactly why we use money in the first place?

Bitcoin is objectively the best form of money



the problem is we lack the insane monstrious infraestructure of the state, and that's violence monopoly and basically mass acceptance. Those two things are the only things that aren't allowing making 1 Bitcoin = 1 Billion dollars, where it should be if people used the objectively, best, most updated version of money we've ever seen.

Money is often used to motivate others to do things but they dont know why, and in exchange they can motivate others the same way and those others dont know why, and so on. This created a problem in people motiving eachother to do bad things, so governments stepped in and regulated that ability to motivate eachother. I thank them for the original attempt to prevent those bad things people cause eachother to do, but today governments have fallen victim to the same influence of money they originally started regulating others to prevent, the difference being only governments are allowed to be corrupt and use money for bad things.

Please do not regulate while under the influence of money.

Money is a great tool to organize scarce resources. Its such a great tool for that, people started using it for things theres already enough of, like owning ideas (patents), food (like seedless watermelon DNA), and the right to trade freely in new kinds of competing money. It went too far when peoples motivation, their own goals, were squashed by money commonly known by the phrase "get back to work". People try to make others value money more than its actual value, in part because that gives them more value of the money they hold, and the more dangerous part is because money has a mind of its own, our minds, and it has commanded us (through laws, for example) to help it reproduce. Its alive. And I dont want any out of control life form motivating me to do things which I dont know why I should want to do.

I see work as any vauable thing you do. If the product of that work is not scarce, then I provide more value to the world by not connecting it with money. We should want more people to do this when they have enough of other things. They usually dont have enough of other things because the ways central currencies are used are to contain peoples motivation, not to be a tool where people can motivate eachother, but to contain the motivating of eachother inside where that currency is normally used like only between certain countries and only if you think certain ways, that you allow that currency to motivate you more than other currencies, because if you offer other currencies in trade to a local store they usually make you wait a few days while it transfers between countries or various systems. They are in an incompatibility war, and we are the casualties. Lets prove to the world that money is an addiction on non-scarce things.

So I decided to give bitcoin another try, this time not primarily as an investment which I think will soon gain value to trade for other currencies, but instead as a better way to motivate eachother, especially inside tor where that is I believe the place it is normally used.