Lightning network for signature campaign payment?

libert19

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Quote from: Darker45 on May 09, 2023, 08:38:11 PM

But with the Lightning network, it will probably be a problem to many signature participants who have to immediately move their payment somewhere else before converting it to fiat. The company or manager will save on fees, but the burden will be transferred to the participants. I guess that isn't fair.

I don't think that would be of trouble, there are plenty exchanges [1] supporting LN making it easy to go in/out.

[1] https://github.com/theDavidCoen/LightningExchanges — reference link, not updated recently tho.

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Quote from: stompix on May 08, 2023, 08:27:08 AM

Quote from: Synchronice on May 08, 2023, 07:44:59 AM

When your favorite T-shirt has strains but you have to go out immediately, what do you do? Either wear a new t-shirt (altcoin for bitcoin) for a while or wear that t-shirt and cover with jacket (Lighting Network for bitcoin).

Or you don't go out at all, and this would be the best analogy cause this is the advice everyone is giving out right now, including with the batching of payments from one week to two or even a full month. Grin

That's the worst choice to make.

Quote from: stompix on May 08, 2023, 08:27:08 AM

Quote from: Synchronice on May 08, 2023, 07:44:59 AM

Bitcoin is the store of value, we can look at litecoin like its supporter in terms of transactions.

Why would Bitcoin keep being a store of value when its litecoin doing the things described in Bitcoin's whitepaper?
Because the first paragraph was:

Quote

A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online
payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a
financial institution

and nothing of a store of value. Grin

So yeah, coming back to your previous question, and don't forget this is coming from a bitcoin maxi, right now Litecoin is doing better what BTC was supposed to be.

Things change over time, for me, bitcoin is a store of value too because it's the first cryptocurrency, it's the most supported one, the story behind it is very unique, we don't know who actually created it and I personally think that this currency wasn't created for monetary benefits but to frankly solve actual problems that exist in financial system.
But I think that bitcoin wasn't meant to handly massive amounts of transactions and the creator didn't think about the ways blockchain could be flood and that's normal, you can't consider everything. At the moment, you tell me that Litecoin does better what BTC was supposed to do, so, I don't understand, what's wrong if we use it for transaction? You know my reason, why I store value in Bitcoin and why I stick with it.

Just tell me, what's wrong if we use Litecoin for transactions for a while? Do you think Litecoin will attract people and people will abandon Bitcoin? Yeah, you support bitcoin but you need p2p transaction at the same time without spending half of your money in transactions, how should one behave in this situation?

Darker45

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I actually don't have a problem if the payment is sent to either a native SegWit address or a Lightning network address. But it's because my payment will probably stay there for many months or even years. I guess I could even accept altcoins like LTC if the manager prefers.

But with the Lightning network, it will probably be a problem to many signature participants who have to immediately move their payment somewhere else before converting it to fiat. The company or manager will save on fees, but the burden will be transferred to the participants. I guess that isn't fair.

examplens

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Quote from: KingsDen on May 09, 2023, 02:30:39 PM

This is a bitcoin problem and bitcoin is the king, solving bitcoin problem with altcoins is a total let down to the king.

The irony is that the whole problem was caused by some kind of altcoin, NFT exactly. It's still hard for me to accept that in addition to thousands of altcoins and tokens, there is still a need to bother the Bitcoin chain unnecessarily.

KingsDen

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This is a bitcoin problem and bitcoin is the king, solving bitcoin problem with altcoins is a total let down to the king.
If the trusted campaign managers can hold upto 2 weeks weekly pay of the participants in order to enable the mempool to decongest.
Exemption would be people in urgent need of the weekly payment.
Currently, the pool is not as congested as it was yesterday.

noorman0

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Quote from: Apocollapse on May 07, 2023, 11:19:43 PM

-snip-
2. For participant: if you have two options to choose, are you prefer to receive your payment in your native segwit address or lightning network address?

Native segwit.
I'm not familiar with LN though (maybe) I've suggested a method somewhere. The only suggestion I would totally agree with is if the manager keeps doing weekly calculations and it's not a problem for me if payments are to be made every few weeks. Just don't want that blockchain spammers to interrupt my weekly DCA.

Apocollapse

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Quote from: Trofo on May 08, 2023, 07:06:52 AM

2. Lighting is still quite complicated, I don't even know how it works with multisig wallets like we are using for our campaigns
3. Altcoins are just a new set of problems. You can't even have your campaign set up in service section then

Yeah I tend to agree lightning network looks quite complicated since we're already convenient to use on chain network and I don't expect all users will accept it with the sudden change.

Correct, if the campaign thread is moved to bounty section, it's really worst because there are a lot bot newbie accounts will spamming in your thread and it will reduce to find a good poster since most people only visit the service section.

Quote from: ABCbits on May 09, 2023, 04:52:46 AM

Don't forget campaign manager usually make payment to all participant in 1 transaction. An output address has size 31 vB in Bitcoin transaction, so with current low priority fees (175 sat/vB based on https://mempool.space/), it costs roughly $3 per participant.

Thanks for clarify, yeah it should be cheaper but I can't calculate it lol.

Quote from: NotATether on May 09, 2023, 02:54:43 AM

For desktop, there is really only Electrum and Zap, and although I haven't tried Zap yet, these days, even before the BRC20 spam, creating a channel using an Electrum trampoline is failing every. single. time.

Didn't know there's an issue for creating a channel, it seems migrating to lightning network isn't the most effective solution, anyway thanks for pointing it.

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Quote from: Apocollapse on May 07, 2023, 11:19:43 PM

However I haven't see any campaign is paying their participants through lightning network, using native segwit will make the fee is more cheaper, but it's not really the best choice.

The problem is that this proposal will not travel through the time where there was no congestion. To open a channel now still cost high but not as high as compared to the onchain transaction right now.

Again, the huddles to get every campaign participants to involve. A campaign manager sending to 60 campaign participants is not using 2-2 segwit. What will it look like in balancing and rebalancing?

The use of a stable coin is better than random altcoin. Maybe one decentralized stable coin.

ABCbits

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Quote from: Apocollapse on May 07, 2023, 11:19:43 PM

So I have two questions here:
1. For campaign manager: are you fine to spend more money due to high transaction fees right now?

Don't forget campaign manager usually make payment to all participant in 1 transaction. An output address has size 31 vB in Bitcoin transaction, so with current low priority fees (175 sat/vB based on https://mempool.space/), it costs roughly $3 per participant.

Quote from: Apocollapse on May 07, 2023, 11:19:43 PM

2. For participant: if you have two options to choose, are you prefer to receive your payment in your native segwit address or lightning network address?

Even if campaign manager decide to use LN, we still need to create 1 on-chain transaction to open new LN channel. For short term, it offer little benefit. And with recent problem with tippin.me, i would rather not using custodial LN wallet either.

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Quote from: Apocollapse on May 07, 2023, 11:19:43 PM

2. For participant: if you have two options to choose, are you prefer to receive your payment in your native segwit address or lightning network address?

An important topic for discussion indeed, given the high fee hikes of the past days this is a really important question.

Yesterday when I tried to transfer some bitcoins that I receive in my wallet from the campaign I was surprised that the high fee is about $30!!! I was really amazed!!! I reduced the fee to a minimum but it was about $8!!!
It doesn't make sense to pay $8 to transfer $100 from your wallet.

As for your question, as a participant in signature campaigns, I have no objection to receiving payments in the Bitcoin Lightning Network because the campaign manager currently pays very high fees.

NotATether

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Quote from: Trofo on May 08, 2023, 07:06:52 AM

2. Lighting is still quite complicated, I don't even know how it works with multisig wallets like we are using for our campaigns

That's not the only problem, there's also a shortage of Lightning desktop wallets (that is if you don't want to use a terminal as your wallet, and I mean clightning and LND), and most of us would not consent to getting paid on a mobile phone wallet.

For desktop, there is really only Electrum and Zap, and although I haven't tried Zap yet, these days, even before the BRC20 spam, creating a channel using an Electrum trampoline is failing every. single. time.

And yeah, there's too many options to jump through to try to make it work, and I'm a developer. Imagine how it must feel for a normal user. So that really says something about the UX and ease-of-use of creating Lightning Network *channels* (I think we can all agree that invoices are straightforward).

But like I said on the mailing list: We have to work on something as a resistance to future crunch periods.

mindrust

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Nearly impossible to convert them to regular bitcoins and the exchange I use don't accept LN. Sometimes I use my bitcoins to pay my bills and I need to convert them to my local currency. If I get my payments via LN then it will be very hard to do that. Campaign managers can easily solve this problem if they use some other currency other than BTC. LTC for example is as widely accepted as BTC and it is pretty fast for now. Instead of making things complicated, use something else till BTC gets its shit together.

libert19

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Oh you already created thread for this cause, I didn't know I created another one yesterday for same.

Quote from: Apocollapse on May 07, 2023, 11:19:43 PM

2. For participant: if you have two options to choose, are you prefer to receive your payment in your native segwit address or lightning network address?

I'd prefer lightning, as mentioned in above linked post, we can use fixedfloat to convert LN BTC to btc itself or other alts, if need arises.

_BlackStar

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Quote from: Little Mouse on May 08, 2023, 07:45:11 AM

This is certainly a concern for the campaign managers and the team itself. I don't think there's something participants can decide. It's all about whether as a participant you are going to accept the campaign rules or not. If you don't have problem with campaign rules (whatever rules the manager set), apply and if you don't like the rules, don't apply.

Each manager has a different character although most of them are not used to coordinating with their participants changing campaign rules midway through. You're right, managers have rights and participants have to decide for themselves whether to accept those rules or leave and join another campaign.

But what's the harm in finding a solution together instead kick your participants out when maybe the participants can suggest you a better solution?

Quote from: Trofo on May 08, 2023, 07:06:52 AM

So far only viable one is to just pay the tx or maybe do biweekly or monthly payments if all participants are fine with that.

This is a great solution because I think all participants will understand what the reason is. Getting paid weekly, biweekly or once a month is fine for me as long as it's a good solution to agree on, but of course there's a lot more solution to hear than this one.

stompix

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Quote from: Synchronice on May 08, 2023, 07:44:59 AM

When your favorite T-shirt has strains but you have to go out immediately, what do you do? Either wear a new t-shirt (altcoin for bitcoin) for a while or wear that t-shirt and cover with jacket (Lighting Network for bitcoin).

Or you don't go out at all, and this would be the best analogy cause this is the advice everyone is giving out right now, including with the batching of payments from one week to two or even a full month. Grin

Quote from: Synchronice on May 08, 2023, 07:44:59 AM

Bitcoin is the store of value, we can look at litecoin like its supporter in terms of transactions.

Why would Bitcoin keep being a store of value when its litecoin doing the things described in Bitcoin's whitepaper?
Because the first paragraph was:

Quote

A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online
payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a
financial institution

and nothing of a store of value. Grin

So yeah, coming back to your previous question, and don't forget this is coming from a bitcoin maxi, right now Litecoin is doing better what BTC was supposed to be.

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Quote from: Little Mouse on May 08, 2023, 07:45:11 AM

Anyway, I don't think the recent high fee is an issue for a signature campaign. Most of the projects spend thousand of dollars for the campaign and fee won't create an issue. Usually, team gives me a budget of $30 for the network fee and I add the rest in the upcoming weekly budget.

Not only on the management side is the problem. Even campaign participants like don’t want to spend my Bitcoin on my wallet since the fee consume a huge percentage of my money. I’m ok watching my Bitcoin value goes down since Bitcoin price is dipping rather than accept a realized loss of 15$ just to sent my Bitcoin on exchange to spend it.

Quote from: Trofo on May 08, 2023, 07:06:52 AM

So far only viable one is to just pay the tx or maybe do biweekly or monthly payments if all participants are fine with that. Hope to see some more solutions that I did not think about.

This is a good solution because we are already forced to hold due to the fees and I think the majority of users here is not using Bitcoin as main source of income or else they will suck up on a realized loss on fees.

Little Mouse

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This is certainly a concern for the campaign managers and the team itself. I don't think there's something participants can decide. It's all about whether as a participant you are going to accept the campaign rules or not. If you don't have problem with campaign rules (whatever rules the manager set), apply and if you don't like the rules, don't apply.
Anyway, I don't think the recent high fee is an issue for a signature campaign. Most of the projects spend thousand of dollars for the campaign and fee won't create an issue. Usually, team gives me a budget of $30 for the network fee and I add the rest in the upcoming weekly budget.

Synchronice

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Quote from: stompix on May 08, 2023, 07:09:31 AM

As for what is wrong with altcoins, if you end up using LTC because it has low fees, why use Bitcoin at all?
LTC is decentralized, it's minable via POW, it has a finite supply, and has lower fees, you see what slippery slope we're getting if every time there is an issue with BTC we look at altcoins?

When your favorite T-shirt has strains but you have to go out immediately, what do you do? Either wear a new t-shirt (altcoin for bitcoin) for a while or wear that t-shirt and cover with jacket (Lighting Network for bitcoin).
By the way, right now you tell me that Litecoin is better than bitcoin, don't you? Bitcoin is the store of value, we can look at litecoin like its supporter in terms of transactions. Here is the guy @coblee, let's ask him Cheesy

If we don't want to increase block size or implement lighting network or change something, then bitcoin won't really succeed. I sometimes think that people are very conservative here.

Quote from: Trofo on May 08, 2023, 07:06:52 AM

Multiple solutions but not a single good one.
1. It is not ok that campaign particpants pay fees from their pockets
2. Lighting is still quite complicated, I don't even know how it works with multisig wallets like we are using for our campaigns
3. Altcoins are just a new set of problems. You can't even have your campaign set up in service section then
4. Not your keys not your money, never gonna go there

So far only viable one is to just pay the tx or maybe do biweekly or monthly payments if all participants are fine with that. Hope to see some more solutions that I did not think about.

1. Why is not it okay? If I support bitcoin, I don't mind it. The cost of fee is not a problem for me, the problem is that some people abuse the system and I don't want to financially help them, that's all and that's why I prefer Lighting Network in this case.
2. So, if something is complicated, should it be ignored? What's wrong if we enlighten ourselves more? It's not that complicated.
3. Idk if that is a problem, you have been here longer than me, probably you are right, I'm not arguing.
4. It was a joke man and I think you could clearly read that I even said that it shouldn't happen.

stompix

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Quote from: Synchronice on May 08, 2023, 07:00:24 AM

Quote from: stompix on May 08, 2023, 06:54:51 AM

~

C'mon, the 4th one was definitely a joke. By the way, what's wrong with altcoins? I don't really get the cynicism towards altcoins, if I say in altcoins I prioritize monero, will it still be a joke for you? What's wrong with litecoin as a quick solution for limited amount of time? Doge is a joke coin and no one says it should be used in first place.

I know you were joking but the fact still stands, we've ended up discussing even as a joke solution that none would have ever mentioned a month ago, it just shows that the situation is indeed really not comfortable at all.
As for what is wrong with altcoins, if you end up using LTC because it has low fees, why use Bitcoin at all?
LTC is decentralized, it's minable via POW, it has a finite supply, and has lower fees, you see what slippery slope we're getting if every time there is an issue with BTC we look at altcoins?

Trofo

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Quote from: Synchronice on May 08, 2023, 06:20:40 AM

There are some solutions:
1. Campaign participants will pay a dollar or two out of pocket to receive transaction quickly. I assume high tx fees won't remain longer, so it's okay.
2. Use lighting network for a while or permanently but it's not that simple, in first order, they have to enlighten campaign participants about LN and it depends whether campaign managers trust LN or not.
3. Use altcoins for a limited time till fees go down.
4. This is the worst advice but if we all use the same exchange, we can all get rid of fees but I don't think that's ever gonna happen as it shouldn't.

Personally, I don't want to feed shady people, so my vote goes to Lighting Network.

Multiple solutions but not a single good one.
1. It is not ok that campaign particpants pay fees from their pockets
2. Lighting is still quite complicated, I don't even know how it works with multisig wallets like we are using for our campaigns
3. Altcoins are just a new set of problems. You can't even have your campaign set up in service section then
4. Not your keys not your money, never gonna go there

So far only viable one is to just pay the tx or maybe do biweekly or monthly payments if all participants are fine with that. Hope to see some more solutions that I did not think about.

Synchronice

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Quote from: stompix on May 08, 2023, 06:54:51 AM

Quote from: Synchronice on May 08, 2023, 06:20:40 AM

There are some solutions:
~
3. Use altcoins for a limited time till fees go down.
4. This is the worst advice but if we all use the same exchange, we can all get rid of fees but I don't think that's ever gonna happen as it shouldn't.

5. Use Paypal! Cool

I don't think there would be a greater insult to a bitcoiner on this forum than having to get paid in Dogecoin instead of Bitcoin and not because of some funding problems but because, wow, right now the Doge network is better at doing transactions.
Seriously how would we even dare to show our faces here or ever use the word shitcoin if we're forced to use such a thing?

As for the centralized solution, just wow, as I said, why not Paypal or let's just use bank wires?
Seriously I can't believe what we've ended up discussing here, this is just crazy!

C'mon, the 4th one was definitely a joke. By the way, what's wrong with altcoins? I don't really get the cynicism towards altcoins, if I say in altcoins I prioritize monero, will it still be a joke for you? What's wrong with litecoin as a quick solution for limited amount of time? Doge is a joke coin and no one says it should be used in first place.

stompix

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Quote from: Synchronice on May 08, 2023, 06:20:40 AM

There are some solutions:
~
3. Use altcoins for a limited time till fees go down.
4. This is the worst advice but if we all use the same exchange, we can all get rid of fees but I don't think that's ever gonna happen as it shouldn't.

5. Use Paypal! Cool

I don't think there would be a greater insult to a bitcoiner on this forum than having to get paid in Dogecoin instead of Bitcoin and not because of some funding problems but because, wow, right now the Doge network is better at doing transactions.
Seriously how would we even dare to show our faces here or ever use the word shitcoin if we're forced to use such a thing?

As for the centralized solution, just wow, as I said, why not Paypal or let's just use bank wires?
Seriously I can't believe what we've ended up discussing here, this is just crazy!

Poker Player

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I am indifferent, LN, some altcoin... I can adapt to anything, but I would like to bring here another option that has been pointed out in a campaign, although it may have its drawbacks:

Quote from: Trofo on May 07, 2023, 11:42:13 PM

Quote from: Coin_trader on May 07, 2023, 10:45:35 PM

Is it possible to have an option to not receive the payment for the week and just accumulate until the network fee is better? We can't still use the funds in this current state while the transaction fee on both our sides is high if we will gonna spend it now.

We will think about that, problem is at this point things could get worse before they get better. FOMO is always strong in crypto and it is difficult to predict when the transactions would get better. Still we can talk about biweekly payments or even monthly payments if that is something vast majority of participants wouldn't have a problem with.

@everyone let us know your opinion on the matter. You can also do it via PM in case you don't want it to be public.

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Quote from: Apocollapse on May 07, 2023, 11:19:43 PM

So I have two questions here:
1. For campaign manager: are you fine to spend more money due to high transaction fees right now?

Maybe it doesn't matter to the manager because they have the budget, but of course it will definitely set sat/vB for example below 50sat/vB and it will take a long time to receive confirmation.
But what is clear is the decision of the manager and the company team.

Quote from: Apocollapse on May 07, 2023, 11:19:43 PM

2. For participant: if you have two options to choose, are you prefer to receive your payment in your native segwit address or lightning network address?

Both don't matter if I want to pay or my own lightning network will definitely accept this payment option.

But the casino and mixing still don't accept bitcoin lightning network, so participants can't directly send their btc directly there if the lightning network is an option, of course, they have to go through an exchange first before they deposit back to the casino or mixer.

In my opinion, Segwit will still be the best because participants will be free to send BTC anywhere, while the lightning network is still limited, there are only a few exchanges that accept it, while for casinos there is no LN.

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There are some solutions:
1. Campaign participants will pay a dollar or two out of pocket to receive transaction quickly. I assume high tx fees won't remain longer, so it's okay.
2. Use lighting network for a while or permanently but it's not that simple, in first order, they have to enlighten campaign participants about LN and it depends whether campaign managers trust LN or not.
3. Use altcoins for a limited time till fees go down.
4. This is the worst advice but if we all use the same exchange, we can all get rid of fees but I don't think that's ever gonna happen as it shouldn't.

Personally, I don't want to feed shady people, so my vote goes to Lighting Network.

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Quote from: Wiwo on May 07, 2023, 11:41:24 PM

We are in a crazy time, but then this is not the first time we are experiencing this kind of situation with bitcoin network conggestion but on the long run, bitcoin fees is going return back to normal again.

The difference is it reaches new ATH that is much worse than before. Fee might go down but not too soon.

Quote from: Apocollapse on May 07, 2023, 11:19:43 PM

1. For campaign manager: are you fine to spend more money due to high transaction fees right now?

Coinomize just recently sent the campaign payment and it has 0.0055 BTC as fees which is more than $150, so i guess managers/owners can but not as always as this.

Quote from: Apocollapse on May 07, 2023, 11:19:43 PM

2. For participants: if you have two options to choo from are you prefer to receive your payment in your native Segwit address or lightning network address?

If there is an option, why not.
But the main problem is your tx fee when you send it later on to an exchange or wherever you want. Most recommended fee is $55 as of writing, might be better if exchanges supports lightning deposit too, well, there are already some like kraken and bitfinex but im not using them for KYC requirements reason and it's unfortunate.

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We are in a crazy time, but then this is not the first time we are experiencing this kind of situation with bitcoin network conggestion but on the long run, bitcoin fees is going return back to normal again.

Quote from: Apocollapse on May 07, 2023, 11:19:43 PM

So I have two questions here:
1. For campaign manager: are you fine to spend more money due to high transaction fees right now?

I don't think any campaign manager or company team making payments will be fine spending high fees just to make campaign payments, this will have a long term negative impact on the entire campaign budgets.

And just as some platforms are already closing down their bitcoin withdrawals, some campaigns may be forced to halt payments for weeks or even pausing the compagn if these issues continue.

Quote from: Apocollapse on May 07, 2023, 11:19:43 PM

2. For participants: if you have two options to choo from are you prefer to receive your payment in your native Segwit address or lightning network address?

I don't have any problem with that even though my campaign payment is done on the casino which doesn't require any fees tipping from the platforms, but then if I were in a direct address paid campaign, I won't mind receiving payment through lightening networks address since it will solve the current situation until everything goes back to normal.

Apocollapse

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To be honest I don't have any problem if I receive my signature campaign payment longer than before due to ordinals transaction spamming in bitcoin network, right now the fee for low priority is 345 sat/vB or worth of $13.66, the campaign manager obviously will pay higher than that because there are many participants/receipt addresses.

However I haven't see any campaign is paying their participants through lightning network, using native segwit will make the fee is more cheaper, but it's not really the best choice.

So I have two questions here:
1. For campaign manager: are you fine to spend more money due to high transaction fees right now?

2. For participant: if you have two options to choose, are you prefer to receive your payment in your native segwit address or lightning network address?

Topic: Lightning network for signature campaign payment? (Read 380 times)