Lightning Network subforum proposal.

pooya87

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Quote from: n0nce on August 30, 2021, 06:54:37 PM

And if it won't be made, where to put LN topics? Bitcoin Development? General Bitcoin?

Until we get a dedicated board it depends on what the topic is about.
- If it is about technical aspects of Lightning Network then Development & Technical Discussion board should be used.
- If it is general information about LN such as LN stats, adoption by some company, any general news, etc. then Bitcoin Discussion board is suitable.
- If it is a problem with an LN client such as problems with installation, connecting to network, opening/closing channels, etc. then Bitcoin Technical Support or if it is a specific client like Electrum that has a dedicated board they should be used.
- If it is some sort of guide on LN such as how it works, how to use, what client to use, etc. then Beginners & Help board is the appropriate place.
- If it is a new project that either you made or know is being worked on such as a new LN client available on github and it doesn't already have a topic then Project Development is the board to use.
- Last but not least to complain about lack of LN board use Meta

n0nce

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Chiming in to vote for a dedicated LN sub as well! There are so many different topics to talk about and one or a bunch of general LN threads aren't enough / not enough separation of topics imho.

And if it won't be made, where to put LN topics? Bitcoin Development? General Bitcoin? It's technically a wholly different project, built on top of Bitcoin, but since we have Altcoin sections we also should have a Lightning section.
Just my 2 sats

ndalliard

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on July 24, 2021, 02:35:06 AM

Pmalek gathered them into one thread and fortunately, that probably made them realize the high volume regarding it.

image

thanks for bringing this up, i am not on discord and just had the word from rath. although it looks like achow101 is against it

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Quote from: ndalliard on July 24, 2021, 02:21:57 AM

Rath told me, that someone else told him, that a subforum (second layer) is on its way - so lets see if it will happen soon...

Indeed, I saw it on Discord. Cyrus seems to agree on the subforum addition. The mods have acknowledged that LN topics are more than they seem and they deserve to be gathered into a lightning board. I'm happy to read that, but who will moderate it? It'll probably be under Dev & Tech, so I guess gmaxwell and achow101.

Pmalek gathered them into one thread and fortunately, that probably made them realize the high volume regarding it.

ndalliard

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Quote from: OgNasty on July 23, 2021, 07:37:19 PM

My question is, if there is no place here to discuss development on the Lightning Network, where is the place to discuss it?

Rath told me, that someone else told him, that a subforum (second layer) is on its way - so lets see if it will happen soon...

OgNasty

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Quote from: ndalliard on July 08, 2021, 12:24:10 PM

what would be the next step to get a subforum for the lightning network?

Convince theymos to add a Lightning Network subforum. There's really nothing else to it. I am a bit surprised this hasn't already happened considering all of the drama that went around censoring the blocksize debate. If this is the scaling solution that our Bitcoin leaders have laid out for us (not a good one btw), you'd think there would be a place to learn about it. Maybe some sticky threads about how to setup a node or what software/hardware options are available. Even if I was interested in developing on the Lightning Network, there is very little help available here.

My question is, if there is no place here to discuss development on the Lightning Network, where is the place to discuss it?

ndalliard

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i agree with most what has been said here, what would be a concrete next step to get a subforum - or is this not even in our power?

i am a little bit biased, i fell down the bitcoin rabbit hole some years ago and my lightning journey started some days ago. that means i am mostly here for the lightning network (or the topics around it). there is good effort with the faq and the table with all posts in one place. but i feel spererate questions or discussion are lost in big thread nobody is reading. i am a minimalist by heart and would prefer a lot of small discussions taking place than one big book i have to read

the argument that only big topics get a subforum is definitely wrong (see for example some wallets) and also wrong is the presumption that not a lot of people use lightning (see mentioned staticits from 1ml.com - which already change - up)

i will close with what i've started: what would be the next step to get a subforum for the lightning network?

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Quote from: FIFA worldcup on June 26, 2021, 10:42:45 PM

People can see the updates on Lighting Network without having a separate board. What's the use of Development & Technical Discussion if we need to develop a sub board for any major update on bitcoin.

I disagree,
1. While LN mainly developed to solve Bitcoin scalability, it can be used by other cryptocurrency (such as LTC and DOGE).
2. Unlike other changes (such as SegWit), miner/node don't need to upgrade their software because LN isn't part of Bitcoin, but only only utilize Bitcoin.
3. Possible topic regarding LN is far bigger compared with other change. There are far more thread about LN compared with P2SH or Taproot.

Quote from: FIFA worldcup on June 26, 2021, 10:42:45 PM

This would also mean that we should have a separate sub board in altcoin for Eth 2.0 update Huh

Irrelevant, this is Bitcoin forum. ETH 2.0 update still belong to altcoin board.

FIFA worldcup

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Quote from: Cryptojurnalist on June 26, 2021, 07:45:28 PM

Quote from: The Cryptovator on June 16, 2021, 12:42:46 PM

Since a board exists for a few wallets, so I think Lightning Networks deserve aboard. Most forum users unaware about Lightning networks and how it works. So it would be easier to learn for them from a single board. If a thread creates for Lightning Networks, then it's going down after a few days. Lightning Networks is the most potential for Bitcoin adaption. So the idea isn't bad those are suggesting a board of Lightning Networks.

I never knew the important or mean of LN not after I came across this topic. Since LN play an ambiguous role to bitcoin adaptation, it will be a good idea to have a separate board for it. This way every member of the forum will see any latest update about the Lighting Network.

People can see the updates on Lighting Network without having a separate board. What's the use of Development & Technical Discussion if we need to develop a sub board for any major update on bitcoin. This would also mean that we should have a separate sub board in altcoin for Eth 2.0 update Huh

Cryptojurnalist

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Quote from: The Cryptovator on June 16, 2021, 12:42:46 PM

Since a board exists for a few wallets, so I think Lightning Networks deserve aboard. Most forum users unaware about Lightning networks and how it works. So it would be easier to learn for them from a single board. If a thread creates for Lightning Networks, then it's going down after a few days. Lightning Networks is the most potential for Bitcoin adaption. So the idea isn't bad those are suggesting a board of Lightning Networks.

I never knew the important or mean of LN not after I came across this topic. Since LN play an ambiguous role to bitcoin adaptation, it will be a good idea to have a separate board for it. This way every member of the forum will see any latest update about the Lighting Network.

Pmalek

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Quote from: kxwhalexk on June 25, 2021, 09:48:14 PM

In the Development & Technical Discussion, a legendary member:Pmalek https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/table-all-lightning-network-threads-in-one-place-5345664 created a summary about the Lightning Network, which is still being updated.

I was just about to write something about my thread as well. I have been working on it occasionally throughout Thursday and Friday trying to gather all important threads where the main topic of discussion is the Lightning Network. I didn't have a clue there were that many. I thought it would be something I could finish within a few hours. Wrong!

I have been arranging them by date and I have gotten to 2019. All the main discussion threads from 2021-2019 are there. I still have to order the threads in 2019 by date and take a look at 2018 as well. I don't think it's necessary to check before 2018.

Once the thread is finished, I think the admins can get a good look at the share amount of content there actually is about the LN. And, I haven't even added all of it. Threads with no or just a few replies weren't included.

kxwhalexk

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In the Development & Technical Discussion, a legendary member:Pmalek https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/table-all-lightning-network-threads-in-one-place-5345664 created a summary about the Lightning Network, which is still being updated.

I took a brief look, and this year, there are nearly 50 topics about the Lightning Network.

My suggestion is to set the Lightning Network as a sub-section of Development & Technical Discussion.

thx Pmalek again.

d5000

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I would love a Lightning subforum, even if there currently aren't too many topics about it, mainly for two reasons:

1) It is a different and uncommon way to use Bitcoin. It requires often dedicated software solutions like Eclair and the way to transact is completely different, so in a dedicated forum specific problems could be addressed in depth, without fear that the threads will be buried fastly.

2) It is currently the main solution to make Bitcoin ready to use for smaller payments and enable mass adoption. It can be viewed as a strategic technology in the Bitcoin space and an important piece for the puzzle of Bitcoin's success.

Forums have the advantage to Twitter-style social networks that categorizing discussions by topic is straightforward, and discussions about topics then are easy to find (yes, social networks have hashtags, but the ordering by hashtags tends to be much more chaotic). I think for the reasons I mentioned above, Lightning is important enough as a topic for a subforum, and so Bitcointalk should use that feature of good ol' webforums to bundle LN discussions.

A dedicated subforum for Lightning would communicate: Bitcointalk is ready for Bitcoin's future!

pooya87

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Quote from: FFrankie on June 22, 2021, 05:18:07 PM

There's not a lot of topics about it because nobody uses it because you have to look everywhere for information about it.

That's a very bold claim! Here are some LN stats for you taken from https://1ml.com/statistics
Number of LN nodes: 21,833
Number of Channels: 51,277
Network Capacity: 1,601.35 BTC = $54,385,766.81
Average Node Capacity: 0.131 BTC = $4,450.27
Average Channel Capacity: 0.031 BTC = $1,059.26

I wouldn't call this "nobody".

Quote

What if Elon musk tweets about the lighting network, we would have a ton of people googling it and getting directed towards their own space to discuss it

People who follow people like Musk are not interested in technology, they are interested in making money. I doubt if that many would bother looking into LN unless they think there is money to be made!

FFrankie

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There's not a lot of topics about it because nobody uses it because you have to look everywhere for information about it.

What if Elon musk tweets about the lighting network, we would have a ton of people googling it and getting directed towards their own space to discuss it

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Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on June 19, 2021, 10:23:28 PM

Even if your LN megathread were to be split up into multiple topics, I don't think there would be sufficient demand to warrant a LN sub. 800 posts in about two years works out to a little more than one post per day.

Some boards receive far fewer. In the ivory tower board for example, the last post there was on the 2nd of June, almost 20 days ago, but it's still an existing board.
While it is important to have enough traffic to support a new sub board, other criteria like the importance of that topic to Bitcoin should factor in.

Quote from: notblox1 on June 21, 2021, 04:32:17 PM

and maybe some other subforums that are not so active anymore should be removed.

How can this be done without losing dozens of pages of useful content? Should such boards be archived or locked from all users?

notblox1

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I think bitcointalk forum should be updated with some new subforums and Lightning Network can be one of them, I think that LN usage will grow in future.
There are already a lot of useful guides that can be moved there, and maybe some other subforums that are not so active anymore should be removed.
We can have a vote and see what people think.

OgNasty

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Perhaps instead of trying to justify it’s creation with what already exists on the forum, a ‘build it and they will come’ attitude of faith is a more accurate approach. There’s an embarrassingly small amount of information available about the Lightning network on these forums for what is supposed to be the Bitcoin scaling solution. At the very least a thread with some organization of Lightning threads might be useful for those who want to support Lightning and it’s discussions.

PrimeNumber7

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Quote from: Rath_ on June 17, 2021, 04:47:03 PM

Quote from: hugeblack on June 17, 2021, 01:56:37 PM

If you want to have a subforum here, contribute to the increase in the number of topics and discussions that talk about the Lightning Network. Over time, the topics will increase and a dedicated section will be created.

I have been already doing it for 3 years! Take a look at the FAQ thread (there is also a non-self-moderated version). Both have 49 pages in total which could make up quite a lot of separate threads.

Even if your LN megathread were to be split up into multiple topics, I don't think there would be sufficient demand to warrant a LN sub. 800 posts in about two years works out to a little more than one post per day. IMO some of the posts in your megathread could be split out into their own topic. If it gets to the point that your megathread is getting multiple pages worth of posts per day on some kind of a consistent and continuous basis, then it would probably be appropriate for a LN sub.

malevolent

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Quote from: JohnBitCo on June 16, 2021, 08:26:31 PM

When was the last time theymos introduced a new sub board in the forum ? I think its very unlikely to get a sub board for "Lightning Network".
Although i think it will be more convenient if we have a sub board for this so those who need only LN information don't need to browse through rest of the information.

Local sections tend to get new boards/child-boards every once in a while (e.g. German, Croatian, sometimes Russian), if there's sufficient demand, it's possible that LN could get its dedicated place, although I don't know whether 39 LN-related topics in a six-month-long period is enough to warrant creating a new child-board (you can always PM an admin).

Pmalek

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Quote from: LoyceV on June 16, 2021, 10:42:44 AM

I think this applies:

Quote from: mprep on March 29, 2019, 07:11:17 PM

Unless a subset of possible board topics is dominating the front page (+50% of topics on the front page belong to said subset), it's highly unlikely that it'll have a sub-section created for it.

In this particular case, there is a problem with that. Most of the LN discussions are centralized in just a few threads that are starting to look like spam mega-threads although they aren't. We can't know how many users would create new discussions in a brand-new LN sub because most users post in the handful of LN threads already available. The users who take part in the Development & Technical Discussions aren't really the type who will create threads in the wrong places. And newbies don't go there that often unless they are asking for help. I think those are also reasons why we don't see new threads about LN issues being created all over the place.

Quote from: ?? on ??

It is worthwhile to grasp one truth for a long time. On this version of the forum, no updates or new sections have been added for a long time. And they won't.

Actually, the Croatian local forum was re-organized last year. We only had a ANN and Marketplace sub before. But proposals were made and the admins were contacted to make changes. We voted and made our forum better. We now have a main bitcoin section, an off-topic sub, a marketplace, and an altcoins board with its child board ANN announcements.

Rath_

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Quote from: hugeblack on June 17, 2021, 01:56:37 PM

AFAIK, creating boards about demand and not technology or the extent of its use outside the forum.

What about the Mycelium board then?

Quote from: hugeblack on June 17, 2021, 01:56:37 PM

If you want to have a subforum here, contribute to the increase in the number of topics and discussions that talk about the Lightning Network. Over time, the topics will increase and a dedicated section will be created.

I have been already doing it for 3 years! Take a look at the FAQ thread (there is also a non-self-moderated version). Both have 49 pages in total which could make up quite a lot of separate threads.

Quote from: hugeblack on June 17, 2021, 01:56:37 PM

If a person does not know how to use the forum, then allocating a subforum will not make a difference to him, as he will either use the search feature or Google, or he will ask his question and the mods will move it to the appropriate section.
if he knows how to use the forum, adding a new section only means more spams.

Still, those topics could be moved to the Lightning section where they could be answered by more people. Right now, I am using ninjastic.space to keep track of new threads and I sometimes miss some of them. I am afraid that some users might get too frustrated if they don't get an answer, and they might give up on the LN.

hugeblack

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AFAIK, creating boards about demand and not technology or the extent of its use outside the forum.
If you want to have a subforum here, contribute to the increase in the number of topics and discussions that talk about the Lightning Network. Over time, the topics will increase and a dedicated section will be created.
Frankly, I do not see any benefit in it. If a person does not know how to use the forum, then allocating a subforum will not make a difference to him, as he will either use the search feature or Google, or he will ask his question and the mods will move it to the appropriate section.
if he knows how to use the forum, adding a new section only means more spams.

Little Mouse

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on June 17, 2021, 07:12:20 AM

Look, I get that you want your local board, but you should acknowledge that the existence of a subforum requires at least one moderator. In order for theymos to create a board for Bengali, it means that someone who is familiar or lives in that country must be in charge of its moderation.

Sorry for hijacking your thread. This will be my last post regarding this as I don't want to bring off-topic here anymore.
Local boards without moderators-
India
Japanese
Croatia
Korea
Hebrew
And some more.
Still this board have enough activity. It also works without moderator.
I can't deny the fact that board for LN is important. But before that, having local boards are more important.

Once again sorry for hijacking your thread. It’s getting off-topic.

BlackHatCoiner

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Quote from: Little Mouse on June 17, 2021, 07:04:55 AM

Theymos isn’t even considering adding a local board for Bengali.

Look, I get that you want your local board, but you should acknowledge that the existence of a subforum requires at least one moderator. In order for theymos to create a board for Bengali, it means that someone who is familiar or lives in that country must be in charge of its moderation.

But, adding a lightning network subforum doesn't require that; moderators of the development board or @Rath_ who has clarified lots of things for LN could moderate it properly.

Little Mouse

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You are talking about worldwide adoption. That's fine. I would like to see LN sub board as it would be more easy to catch up the discussion.
But before that, for worldwide adoption, it’s important to have local board for all the nation. In our local single thread, it’s not even possible to discuss things perfectly because it’s too hard to be on topic in a single thread. Theymos isn’t even considering adding a local board for Bengali.
I have seen people time to time post in the thread but due to lack of having perfect discussion, they lost interest posting there.

This also is another worldwide adoption. If you don’t have resources in local language, you can't make people understand why bitcoin is better monetary system, better store of value.

Well, this is bitcoin talk forum, doesn’t mean that admin have to allow every local user to discuss things in their local language.

JohnBitCo

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Quote from: LoyceV on June 16, 2021, 10:42:44 AM

I think this applies:

Quote from: mprep on March 29, 2019, 07:11:17 PM

Unless a subset of possible board topics is dominating the front page (+50% of topics on the front page belong to said subset), it's highly unlikely that it'll have a sub-section created for it.

When was the last time theymos introduced a new sub board in the forum ? I think its very unlikely to get a sub board for "Lightning Network".
Although i think it will be more convenient if we have a sub board for this so those who need only LN information don't need to browse through rest of the information.

nutildah

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IMHO creating this sub board would be a smart move.

Also IMHO I don't think Bitcoin will ever really "take off" from here (granted its already had an amazing journey) without a healthy shift of tx load onto 2nd layer networks.

Several well-funded coins have already converted their mission into acting as sidechains for Ethereum, and so far its worked well for them.

If Bitcoin wants to keep scaling solutions in-house then a lot more emphasis needs to be placed on LN, which is why fostering additional focus on it isn't such a bad idea.

The Cryptovator

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Since a board exists for a few wallets, so I think Lightning Networks deserve aboard. Most forum users unaware about Lightning networks and how it works. So it would be easier to learn for them from a single board. If a thread creates for Lightning Networks, then it's going down after a few days. Lightning Networks is the most potential for Bitcoin adaption. So the idea isn't bad those are suggesting a board of Lightning Networks.

Philipma1957cellphone

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I used to.be resistant to ln network. BUT over time and seeing the scaling issue with more cost. I tend to think we should push LN network a lot.

FOR EXAMPLE if the San Salvador experiment needs and uses LN successfully BTC will be benefit bigly.

So having a clear way to organize LN posts and threads is important.

For instance a new miner-node the apollo is being sold.

It is yet to convert to LN node it would be good to have it running the LN node.

Having a section for a thread about that would help.

Rath_

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As I have already said, I believe that a separate section would help us organise information in a much better way. Right now, you are more likely to get a helpful answer for an LN related question in the FAQ thread rather than anywhere else. I have missed some questions because they were scattered across various boards. It would be much easier to watch a single board.

Two months ago, I posted a list of all Lightning related threads from 2020 and 2021. Here is the updated version.

2021
Bitcoin Discussion: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
Development & Technical Discussion: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Wallet Software: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
Electrum: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12
Bitcoin Technical Support: 1, 2, 3
Economy: 1
Beginners & Help: 1, 2
Meta: 1

This list includes topics which mentioned the LN only in the first post. I might have missed some of them. In the two months' time, the FAQ thread increased in size by 5 pages.

LoyceV

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I think this applies:

Quote from: mprep on March 29, 2019, 07:11:17 PM

Unless a subset of possible board topics is dominating the front page (+50% of topics on the front page belong to said subset), it's highly unlikely that it'll have a sub-section created for it.

Upgrade00

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It has been asked before on a number of occasions, and members have given their opinion on it.
Some previous proposals;
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.51363546
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.53333101
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.53744952

My take;
• It's a major trend in Bitcoin and deserves more attention from the forum, so a sub board would b a good idea,
• The current number of threads may not be enough to qualify for a new sub board, although I'm not sure quite how many they are. To create a better proposal, you could collate the most recent topics on it from the different boards, to make it easier for the admins to make a decision and show that people are interested in discussing it.

BlackHatCoiner

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I don't know if it's being asked previously, but due to the recent and abrupt usage of the lightning network, I propose to have a different subforum exclusively for it and not just 2-3 general threads that introduce it. It's being seen more seriously now, it ain't just under some early development, a country has adopted it and to be honest, it seems that this is the only way for Bitcoin to survive as a currency and achieve its worldwide adoption.

It could fit perfectly under the “Wallet software” in the “Development & Technical Discussion”.

Topic: Lightning Network subforum proposal. (Read 797 times)