Topic: Loaded Coins Do You Care Where The Funding Comes From (Read 949 times)

Nothing 

Because in the end all of our dollar/paper bills/notes (satoshis) end up with cocaine on them or have least been in possession of drug dealer or other criminal......
Imagine how much less fiat there would be floating around if we just burned all the dirty bills.... loolz  (None is the right answer )

Ha. SO TRUE.  

    Sure, no one wants to be raided because of the thing you got that was stolen.. but IMHO, I'm more concerned that the lawnmower I got at the PAWN shop might have been yours than I am that 'one of only 21 Mil' of something came to me because altswap.com had shit security. The currency may be 'trustless' but the vendor isn't. You sell me something that brings the heat on me, expect that I'll turn over the receipt.
Aside from that daddy needs a zero-point mower!  

I'm sure never having lost anything to an exchange that's gone
under has shaped my opinion to some degree.. but:

'Don't keep your money on an exchange' is a cardinal rule after all.

That's what i thought! lol thanks MJ your a cool ass dude man and a great member of this forum glad your here man!

Why not ?
Yes, the tainted satoshi will have a new owner, but besides former and new owner, who knows about this tainted sat ?
The attacker, yes, but he doesn't have an idea who has the coin or where it is physically.

What the new physical bitcoin owner buys is a private key with funds associated to this private key's public address on the BTC blockchain.
So yes. They will have the loading + a tainted satoshi .. That nothing or no-one ever forces them to spend.

(And thinking about it, it would be a net loss to spend a 1sat input giving all the fees associated to multiple transaction inputs)

Don't just sweep coins.

Saying you got access to the keys it will work that way but It wont work with loaded coins, once sold the tained satoshi will have a new owner.

I don't think so.
My opinion on that matter is that, if what you explain in your example was to happen, then it would be either :

- A transaction using two inputs, a 10k BTC "clean" input, and a 1 satoshi "tainted input" and that will be publicly visible.
- Possible to use Coin Control to spend only the 10k BTC input that was received to the address, and leaving the tainted 1 satoshi sleep forever on that address.

If you did not overload a physical coin, then you should spend only the input that was produced by manufacturer.

Bitcoin Core and Electrum allow for Coin Control features.

And ... in the end ... Tim Draper doesn't complain that much about the fact, a huge stash of his coins is "Silk road" tainted.
Does an auction by the US States cleanses the bitcoin from all evil ? Pretty rad.

I personally don't think that tainted BTC will NOT be an issue in the future.
Due to the nature of blockchain tech; "coins" consist of input and output, if 1 BTC consist of 0.9999 BTC clean BTC and 0.0001 BTC tainted, then will your 1 BTC never be clean.
You cannot just separate the tainted part part and send it to trash, the output will be one 1 BTC no matter what and that output is going to a new input(s) and will always be traced back to the tainted 0.0001 BTC.

In other words, lets say some large exchange or whale is holding 10k BTC on a single addy, just send 1 satoshi of tainted BTC to this addy and the whole stack is worthless.
Or even worse, send 1 tainted satoshi to all public known collectible coin addresses... many manufactures has published the addies, so this is possible to do.

If it should ever happen that tainted BTC will be an real legal issue, then better get nice stack of XMR beforehand.

That is pretty cool though actually mined directly to the coins address i guess you cant top that though!

I never really thought about that but it kind of confuses me its not like the satoshis them self have serial numbers i get you can follow the maybe back to when they were origianlly mined but what exactly is the difference of a satoshi that has been tossed around for years vs sats freshly mined...sorry im such a noob guys 

People seem to really like what BTCC were doing. Though I agree it's cool I wouldn't care myself and wouldn't place a premium on a coin funded that way. What would be interesting would be virgin funding from a numerically significant block. Other than that I'm not arsed. 

They used an unusual set of outputs for the coinbase transaction of some of the blocks mined by BTCC mint.  
As long as the total reward is the right one that is intended to be, regarding the bitcoin rules, it doesn't matter to how many addresses you send a piece of that reward.

That is indeed very cool ! Truely a virgin coin.
For example : https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/transaction/ea675dd4642a6bf1917c040198ce551647ae0638b5c66b3a3b849c2f8e70b668

There is going to be less and less of that as the block reward halvings kick in..

Some one had to "touch" the coins unless the coins contained the full mined block!  REAL virgin coins plz.

If you are concerned, then I'll take them off of your hands at a discounted rate. Problem solved?

Much agree.

To be fair when you purchase a physical coin you are paying more than the cost of the loaded BTC and cost of the coin. Would it be nice to have a physical coin that was minted from virgin coins, where the BTC was loaded either from the block generation address to the coin with only one hop back? Would it be even cooler to have it loaded directly from the coins genesis?

I'd say yes to both of the above.

It's not IMO the hacked coins -> you -> someone else -> exchange -> someone else -> me that really concerns me.

It's the hacked coins -> loaded coin that I buy
or
Hacked coins -> mixer with known bad actors -> loaded coin that I buy

That concerns me.

There are tons of coins that have bad history that have been passed from person to person with no problems.
Same way there are tons of money out there with serial #s that the governments know go back to shady people.

But as I said in the 1st post. The BTC on your physical coin tends to stay there. Even now, there are addresses that have coins that are being watched.
If they move out then those addresses are going to be monitored. If they go from hacker to me to you to someone else to someone else again. The last person has some form of deniability.

But one TX from the "evil" address, if it's a place that has KYC and reules and regulations, you are going to have to explain that you bought this coin from someone on a forum way back when and now that BTC is at $100k and you want to cash out your .1 that it was not you who stole it and had been sitting on it for years.

Go get some $100 bills that are known to be directly traced back to a drug ring and put them in your bank account. Let me know how that works out for you.

Quoting myself from a few posts back:

I don't think anyone saying anything on this thread is really going to change anybody's view / opinion. But I DO think that it's good to put it out there.

-Dave

If you looked hard enough I'm sure you could trace Silk Road coins to most Casascius coins, and of course every other BTC out in the wild. It's like all of us breathing in the same atoms as Leonardo Da Vinci.

The only time I'd have cause to worry about the source of BTC is if it's direct from a theft or hack and that would hopefully be picked up by me or other buyers before it bit me on the botty. I run my Chipmixer earnings through Kraken one step from a Chipmixer vanity address. They've never said a thing.

If anyone other than the paranoid, too rich or fools starts to pay over the odds for virgin coins the party is on its way to being over. It simply cannot work like that.

  Or how about a MTGox BTC coin? Historical no?

Doesn't it at least somewhat come down to what the coin creators and buyers reasonably know about the BTC when acquiring them? If they are just buying coins off of an exchange, they should have no reason to believe that their coins have any sort of issue with them. If someone took stolen coins and sold them on the exchange, and the exchange sold them to you, its not much different than going to a convenience store and getting money used for drug trafficking at some point as change. If the coin creators found a shady partner that'll give them a deal on ill-gotten coins then its a concern, but as far as I and I'd assume most others care, only one or two chains of custody matter.

As a side note, I feel like owning Silk Road coins would be pretty neat. I wouldn't be surprised if they had a premium on them, like how a dollar bill stolen by Bonnie and Clyde is probably worth more than $1.

This.

I wouldn't care at all the source of the BTC. If we start this kind of thinking we go in compliance with all governments that are creating tainted-coin-lists and effectively hurting the BTC ecosystem.
Actually I would like to see more people start using wallets such as Wasabi wallet that have an integrated mixer to constantly shuffle their lower amounts of BTC and thus increasing its fungibility.
The more "white" BTC gets mixed, the less relevant any hacked / stolen / illegit / politically-sanctioned-donation coins etc. will make a difference.

+1

I don't see the reason for people to truly want 'virgin coins' I don't think it makes a difference in the least if your coins were just mined, or if they have been through hacks, fraud, etc. If you weren't the one that facilitated the fraud or did anything to obtain the coins illegally, then I don't think those coins should be looked at in a different light.

This sort of discussion is like caring about where your fiat paper money comes from. Yes, your money could have been used in a drug deal, but you weren't involved in that in the slightest.

Making BTCC chips and coins unique.

That's a good point yogg, funds traceable to silk road sales would fall in this category but they werent tainted enough to recirculate   There is no easy way to pinpoint who would be a "good guy" with tainted btc and who is really a "bad guy" with tainted money just like with good ol fiat.  That being said I wish another company would come out and sell fresh coins like btcc did. 

To me, bitcoin is fungible. 1BTC = 1BTC.
The ones that were seized from Silk Road are tainted, however they also were auctioned by the US govt, so what about that taint ?
It went away and there is not a single satoshi from that pot that is considered "deviant" today.

It's the same as banknotes, really, except cash is not traceable. There is no way to avoid this as the quantity of BTC is finite and they are doomed to go in circles.

I am planning to release loaded Coldkeys in the very near future.
We will be funding them with some of the BTC that was received by our company as payments.

This is unavoidable, coins or not and nothing is going to happen to you. As long as services falsely see coins as tainted vs. not that is. Technologically, all Bitcoin is equal and that's how I see them. I accept any and all.

That is a fix to not use it but you cant get ride of it when it is a loaded coin.

Just buy loaded xmr shit and then you won’t have to worry about it.

But in all seriousness, it’s a good point and proves a crucial flaw in coin traceability that allows btc not to be fungible with other btc coins.

There are tons of tainted coins, and will be tons more. You can't help it.
This is more about knowing that they might be tainted and determining a value or a harm to value.
It's nice to think that coins fresh from P2Pool are the same as coins from slush are the same as coins that came from who know where.
But in the end they might not be. Do you really want the coins from the cryptopia hack? How about the ones from the  Binance hack?

5 years from now after they have been traded 100s or 1000s of times it matters less.
But if you just stole 1000BTC think how easy it would be to come up with a nice set of coins and start loading them with the stolen BTC after running it though a mixer 1st.
By the time most people figured it out you are long gone perhaps with a larger profit if you made some money selling your coins.

I guess I just don't trust a lot of people krogothmanhattans scam / breach thread does not help.


Coin control as I said before.

-Dave

Was thinking about btc-e and the amount of coins they have tainted already.

What if you get dusted by unknown entries ?

It's a shame that p2pool never really caught on like I hoped it would.  That was such an easy way for anyone to get virgin coins and was never utilized for an innovative physical product.

Up until 18.0 the core wallet had coin control, Electrum has coin control as do others.

I don't really think we need virgin coins for ones that are loaded by us. It would be nice but that becomes more and more difficult.
Does it demand a premium, perhaps, that is up to the buyer.

But for coin makers that do funding, yes I think we as a community need to be aware that people do bad things.

Or, as the great Dr. Cox has said. People are Bastard Coated Bastards with Bastard Filling

https://youtu.be/FTbgvYPVdXE?t=31

So, yeah, if maker "A" funds with coins that can be traced straight back to antpool or wherever. But maker "B" just has a pool of BTC that they are funding coins from then perhaps maker "A" deserves more for their coin. I'm not talking $1000s more but yes, you put in some work to get cleaner coins, then yes you get a bit more for your effort.

I don't think anyone saying anything on this thread is really going to change anybody's view / opinion. But I DO think that it's good to put it out there.
Goes back to the thread that Krogothmanhattan started that is now pinned about breached / scammed coin makers. Knowledge is power, giving people insights can't hurt.

Always be aware that we are talking REAL money and you have to be responsible and educate yourself as best you can.

-Dave

BTC like cash is fungible by design.  If I have 1 BTC in my wallet from the MTGOX hack and 12.5 BTC in my wallet from a recent block I mined then send you 1 BTC, which BTC did you get?

I mean it would be a major premium to find proven virgin coins to which I would personally probably not be willing to pay.

Yes & no.
If I decide to make a coin and fund it I can take "my BTC" that I have received from various people and places and use that to fund them.
OR
I can buy from Gemini / Coinbase / etc. and use those to load the coins.

So if something is wrong, you as the person who bought the coin and then is having issues casing it out can have some backup. KYC sucks, places that take a large cut to go fiat <-> BTC suck. If I am buying a coin loaded with 1BTC I would kind of like to be able to, in case of emergency cash it in, without grief.

Taking another step.  Many pools have their hotwallet addresses known. Going from one of them -> my address -> coin is also somewhat safe.

1CK6KHY6MHgYvmRQ4PAafKYDrg1ejbH1cE... is slush
18cBEMRxXHqzWWCxZNtU91F5sbUNKhL5PX is viabtc

If you can trace back a line to them with only 1 or 2 hops it's not a bad thing either.
F2Pool doing a payout:
https://btc.com/fcf583717e88f64cd083c4d73ddfcec5958278a1a99c2507993c824da8a05a0f
If I see funding from there I know it's good.

-Dave

As similar to Fiat money which changes hands quite often and we becoming the owner finally, the same does happen with btc too. But to the contrary, btc are primarily being used for illegal payment activities in dark net and as such they are being liquidated or probably mixed to become more anonymous. Old coin makers such as Casascius might have better history of coins since btc wasn't really famous back then, but with the hike in prices in late 2017 we shouldn't be really expecting a clean non-scammy coin or where they came from. Buying BTCC coins is the only alternative if you are really concerned about the history of coins/where they came from.

Yes fresh coins are nice.  But how many times do you receive a payment from someone in bitcoin, do you know the entire history of that coins passing?  I would be more concerned with taking payment from someone with tainted coins than having those coins sit on a funded collectable which I would probably sell before peeling if liquidating.  It's a good point though

    Great point Dave...i do care..would not want tainted btc in my wallet or loaded coins.

    Virgin and or Mint like BTCC. Would be the cleanest.

Fresh coins are the best. Such a shame BTCC stopped making physicals .

Pulling a bit from what I said here:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.50736781


And Here:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.50705669


Now that this happened:
https://bestmixer.io/

Do we need to have a discussion about how people are funding coins? Or ask for at least a history of funds?
I don't know how we would do it on a P2P level, but from the larger coin makers is it worth an ask or an attempt to setup a process?

Case in point, if I was using bestmixer and used funds I mixed with them to fund a coin that I just sold to you, do you REALLY want it?
Yes, it's nice to say "whatever dude, BTC is BTC" but we know that is not true.
Something happens and you have to liquidate to fiat for some reason.
Do you really want to worry about some place be it Coinbase / Gemini / Kracken or similar asking you why you are cashing out BTC that came from a mixer that was seized by the government?

I know I don't need that in my life.

-Dave