Topic: Looks like they are not getting Bitcoin (Read 5563 times)

LOL you are expecting that from a country that has THIS :

Yaa, people should form bitcoin party in the same way as the pirate party of Europe.Have some legislations in favour of bitcoin or even including bitcoin as an alternate national currency.

people believe in all sort of things. As prediction tool our intuition combined with assumptions historically proved be a faulty. In our modern age there is much better methods for prediction, Mostly based on System Dynamics. that can be of great value to make financial model with use of programs like Stella and see how introduction of bitcoins will influence dynamics of world financial systems. If we have such model we can scientifically prove that prohibition of bitcoins is a bad thing . We can run that model and see how different political decisions related to bitcoins can influence the future, let say in 15 -20 years. In world terms it is not much time, even in country terms it is not much time.  

One thing is quite obvious bitcoins is powerful financial tool, which will first destroy present system and then used to rebuild and establish new financial system for the whole world. Once bitcoins become dominant everybody will rush to join. In bitcoins I do not means exactly "bitcoins". Some new and more advanced cryptos will be created in near future, little doubts about that.

I have this vague ability to state things that happen somewhere in the future. :p
Maybe coincidence... or is it?

sounds too pink in clouds, back to the ground Mr Benson

Indian government always follow Western friends.

At the end, if a government regulated/ approved Bitcoin exchange comes into play, it may override all other Bitcoin exchanges and become a larger entry point.

Maybe that is where the government can also see its profits coming in while allowing a free market for Bitcoin. Through taxing/ earning a margin on trades.

Any thoughts on that?

do we have a state? state is gone, remained only states

The  ideal  state  is no  control .

@subvolatil What does cryptoanarchy aims to achieve with respect to centralized control of govt. ?

Ok let me clear this thing up. for  a Tax is to  be levied on any item, it  need to be  represented in the national currency of the country levying tax. On products,  tax  is  levied when  import or  export of  products  are done  through countries  or  states. VAT , Sales tax, excise duty. etc.

A tax cannot be  levied on a  currency of a different country, for example if you bring in USD into the country it is not  taxed but the minute the USD hits the RBI system as a conversion to INR the tax on it  is levied.  or the RBI converts it into INR for TAX purpose.

So tax is levied on the  conversion of the  currency. where currency is involved. if  bitcoins are  treated  as  currency then  on the  conversion of  bitcoins to INR the tax  will be  levied.

But if  bitcoin is treated as a commodity the tax can be  levied without  the  conversion of  bitcoins and the tax is placed on the  total  value of  bitcoins.
so as there is a  grey line  over  the definition  by the  government on bitcoins as to treat it as a commodity or a  currency.

If bitcoin was mined in India and it can be proved, it means its domestic.

Even if govt. wants to act tough, after significant increase in volume,how will govt. dismantle sites and exchanges on tor and i2p like atlantis and silk road ?

what difference it make, if it domestic or not, how can you prove with bitcoins that it was in fact domestic transaction. If Indian government still ignoring this biz, just because it has no any significant volume. if volume increase they will act 100%.

Here I have mentioned domestic transaction.

authorities did not see it as commodity, based on examples from UK and USA. If you transmitted money from one place to another by means of bitcoins it is money transmission service, not a commodity. On both ends of transaction is a flat currency bitcoins is just a means to transmit flat currency from one place to another.

Bitcoin is a digital commodity.Selling or buying a commodity on peer to peer level is legal,as long as the seller is paying tax for it (if he includes that amount in his income).Registry of a transaction is only needed when the commodity is regulated by govt., like arms,vehicles,immovable property,stocks,bonds etc.

If I want to sell a LED TV to my friend.It will be totally legal,if I pay tax, for the money I got.If my friend smuggles LED TV to other country, he would be held responsible for smuggling not me.

Assumption: Commodity is created in India and trading is done within India.So, no question of money laundering and illegality.

So,If someone proves that certain amount of bitcoin was mined in India, and trade it on above conditions, within India, for rupees,it would be perfectly legal,until the govt. makes it mandatory to register domestic bitcoin transactions.

There was also a note somewhere saying that they were planning on amending this by-law.

it depend on country and government, in some countries hawala operators legalized, they can easily obtain permission and run their shop. But dont expect it happens here.

Saw this by-law today
http://indiankanoon.org/doc/1621737/

that is all good and valid points. nobody can stop bitcoins what they can do is to outlaw it, criminalize. that what governments do alway with something beyond of their control. It cannot be unregulated for long, they will put it under penal code and it become regulated that way, case closed.

1. The internet has become a cornerstone of National Security and defense, this cannot be taken down easily.
But  it can  be  firewalled  like  china. even though the  chinese  dont  stop  technology  progress  by placing  heavy regulations , it does  prevent  free press and  human rights.

2. If anyone makes a move against Bitcoin, especially a country, expect a fight.
Yup ! there  will be  a big backlash on this, but  no  country  can  stop the  use of  bitcoin  because  of  it  decentralized  model. the regulation and any form of ban on bitcoin  will only serve  to create  a  criminal  blackmarket. which  history has  shown  it  to be  highly dangerous.

3. We are not in the same timelines as the 90's. Things have changed. Social media has made governments respect their citizens a wee bit more.
dont know if that has  filtered  into  India  yet. remember the two girls  they  arrested  just because  they  said  some thing  so harmless. ther is  still  miles  to  go  for the  government to catch up to  modern  technology.

4. What will the Anons do if a government decides to go against the 'open currency of their internet'?
Well i  certainly think that  anon  presence is not that much  within  india, but  i do know that all  anons  will be against this  and  the LULZ will  certainly be epic.

5. How will the intellectual public/ born anarchists react when they learn more about bitcoin?
I'll tell you  when that happens. black block  all the way .  heheheh *evil smile*

6. There are steps that CIS will undertake to ensure that this does not happen.
Like  what?

these are some points that have been racking my brains..
Try to reflect on these and you will notice that banks and governments are not that 'Powerful' any more!

LOOK, you got money by cash deposit in bank, from person you dont know, you sent btc to someone you dont know, somewhere you dont have idea about. It is illegal remittance by all means of the law. bitcoins is unregulated territory they can turn it in any way they want. Imagine amount of shit Indian cop covering up. And here is such opportunity they not gonna miss it, I'm telling ya. If you have a friend lawyer ask if my interpretation correct or not. Bitcoins will mature in India, but it is hard to say how many years it will take, depend on the judge. I heard that female judges give more then males, but we dont have female judges in India, do we?

Indian Teleportation Device

https://i.imgur.com/WHfzr9n.jpg

No one will go to jail for dealing with BTC. Maybe some fines or cautions, but that is it.

If someone uses BTC for unlawful purposes, then there may be problems.

How do you identify the user of BTC? I pity the traders who need to make that judgement.

I appreciate the cautiousness being taken with Bitcoin, but my gut instinct tells me that this time it is going to be different.

Let me throw some points as to why:

1. The internet has become a cornerstone of National Security and defense, this cannot be taken down easily.
2. If anyone makes a move against Bitcoin, especially a country, expect a fight.
3. We are not in the same timelines as the 90's. Things have changed. Social media has made governments respect their citizens a wee bit more.
4. What will the Anons do if a government decides to go against the 'open currency of their internet'?
5. How will the intellectual public/ born anarchists react when they learn more about bitcoin?
6. There are steps that CIS will undertake to ensure that this does not happen.
7. Recent History:

The drug war did not eradicate drugs, instead they spread like wildfire because people started learning more about them. People started questioning their governments and regulators and when no answer was attained, the war had to be called off.

The war on t3rr0r was even worse. If we notice, now most of those people labelled as 't3rrorists' are now freedom fighters. In fact it was such a huge failure, that most people on the planet can be classified into atleast 3-5 buckets of t3rr0r characteristics. Hence it failed and has been called to halt.

Hypothetically, if governments did not learn from the 2 case studies mentioned above; we are in for a long period of time where Bitcoin will remain hunted, but will eventually win under the weight of the oppressors.

Alternatively, the governments could give up on banks (which may never happen) and decide that handling financial problems is not within their scope of rule.

This is my vision of things to come.

Absolutely no failure can be granted until there is an attempt. Imagine what needs to be done for a victory.

lol.

Expecting almost whole Indian Bitcoin community having party there with me

On a serious note, I do share your concerns on this topic but I believe as long as you have proper records of your transactions, and you pay tax, you will get chance to explain yourself. If they want to close down business, I will simply close it without any argument as long as they have proper legal tender and authority to ask me that.

Bitcoin needs still at least 3 years in India to get mature.

Hahahhaha, so true.

or coinlab suite happens because of that in first place. it really not so important what happens first. they found weak point and pressing on it. Bitcoins draining their sick finance system which is already dead 3 times at least.

No, they went after mtgoxs dwolla account because of the case coinlab filed against them, the US govt can only stop what's on their justriction, hence the reason they seized their dwolla account. This had nothing to do with bitcoin, all this happened because of the lawsuit which was filed by coinlab

it is matter of keeping face. why they went after Mtgox Dwolla account? Money leaving the system, a lot of money 600k btc transactions per day on mtgox, Government need money work for economy, so they can milk taxes later, they dont want money to disappear in cyberspace.

Luckily bitcoins as a network from scratch designed to be resilient against attacks, so they went after money. It surprised me to see how network module in Bitcoin-Qt discover another nodes. If nothing works it goes to IRC channels. Old hacker's method used to control botnets. These guys know their staff. So, going after bitcoins as network would be real hard and costly.

What they can do is to cut bitcoins from banks.  And it is what they doing in UK and USA. India will follow no doubts.

Note that they have done far worse during the drug war despite which there are more drugs on the planet than ever before.

I would assume that this would be the same outcome on a Bitcoin ban.

Anything decentralized like P2P or Growing plants cannot really be controlled within reasonable cost and effort despite maximum punishment.

Few people may take a fall on the way to getting the system to work. But it will not be a mass effect.

Not  giving a  reason to the government is the best  solution. Paying  and filing  proper returns. increase using  bitcoins for  purchases of  goods and services within the country. and adding  more  people  into this would help in convincing the government  the benefits  of the masses using bitcoins.

and yeah what Pinwheel said is true, they'll hit the people where it hurts the most, their bank accounts, freezing bank accounts would be the best course of action for them I guess

EDIT : I think we should not give the govt. more ideas now by discussing more ways they can control bitcoin lol

You  raised a good  issue  here, pinwheel. the  government going ahead and baning  bitcoins, is the most the government  can  do, but  before that, they will do every  thing to stop the conversion of bitcoin to INR and vise-versa.

The initial concentration will be through the money laundering act. to hit out on  individual and businesses. Which was the reason i posted in  the main section about paying taxis properly. [Benson you should  pin that so that every one reads it and  does start paying taxis on INR part of the bitcoin transactions].

When that wont  work  they will go  after the banks that are  working   with bitcoin based  companies.  mainly freezing  accounts.

then they will go out  for the ultimate kicker. world  governments  coming  together  and getting  global agreement on curtailing the use of  bitcoins.  or regulating it. The global regulation is the one  i'm scared of,  it bassically would let you  use  bitcoins but the  rules may require people to  register your  addresses before use. making  unregistered addresses illegal. But that is some thing  which  wont  happen for the next 10- 20 years.

yeah, I know they cannot control it, its peer2peer like torrents, like I said in my previous reply,


Hence the reason I feel they'll do what they usually do, find 1 person and make a example out of that person :/

Remittance one area where they can demonize Bitcoin.

But they can't do much if it is sold as a commodity or a product. Every regulation tells us this.

Hawala is not entirely illegal BTW. https://secure.interpol.int/Public/FinancialCrime/MoneyLaundering/hawala/default.asp

The remittance laws dictate how Hawala can be used.

try to understand, they cannot control bitcoins, so they will prohibit it, declare it illegal, it is very simple. It is what they do always. Any remittance out of courtly is strictly regulated, they will not let this to continue. for example if you want to buy house abroad you can remit 200K usd, not more then that, and it is after subtitling all required documents. Do you think they wil tolerate remittance system which will allow to anyone to remit millions of dollars out of the country  without them knowing it. No way!!!

there is no way to regulate bitcoins or control it for them, prohibition is easy. Accounts frozen money seized perfect and correct, government cracked down illicit remittance system.

they will use any pretend, and act, like war on_ter_ror and prohibit it. they will put put it in same basket with hawala.

No, what I mean is they'll catch one person, make him spill a few beans about a few more people he has traded with or knows has bitcoins, soon one by one the list will grow.

or they will catch 1 person and make a good example which will make others fear the same

U saying they may go after every single person with a satoshi?

That is impossible, it would be like trying to regulate marijuana.. and we know how well those regulations work.

Hmm, this had to happen sooner or later, huge amounts flowing from everyones (bitcoin) wallets everyday, government has to find a way to stop/regulate it, which will be difficult to block it on the network level, people can use VPN, TOR etc, so they'll start a crack down, one by one, each person caught will reveal more, expose more people involved, few addresses and mobile numbers will reveal a lot :/

 

Maybe not FUD, but very very early reports.

I read it some time ago and it looks like FUD. If you check the link, no Chinese nodes have been affected.
http://blockchain.info/ip-log

May be a US company doing this.

But it will be interesting to watch any new developments.

I cannot see the same happening.

In the event that there is a new introduction into a financial space which does not look legit, the RBI/ Court will first issue a cease and desist warning. If the business does not comply with the warning, that is when trouble starts.
This has not happened as yet, although certain banks have been getting curious.

Also, There has been no Ponzi, no complaints or no damage done to any individual through actions till date, hence, I cannot see this as a large problem.

What we need to be ready for, is a disclosure of Bitcoin income for taxes. But that is only for sellers/ buyers who use a centralized service.

There is absolutely no documentation on what can be done if physical goods/ digital goods are sold for Bitcoin. That is the eventual place where it needs to be at. Where people trade on a daily basis rather than speculate.

look what is happening in China

China Telecom to block all Bitcoin related traffic to China?
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.2246351

first person to go to jail will be buysellbitcoins, next they will  get frozen all bank accounts of people who has done transactions with him.

Indian business model based on prohibition. Once it will come to their attention, I have little doubts what will be the next. 

I do not think it will be any different from what ECB and finCEN have done.

Regulations, KYC, AML at the most.

Popularization of bitcoins in India will result in prohibition of bitcoins and criminalization of the whole area. From government point of view it is illegal alternative remittance system.

When it happens, we all know whom to blame for that. 

Whats the worst case scenario here??
Edit. No income tax for me yet 

But that was a regular one. The main thing that caught my attention was where they have mentioned

Could be a reference to a a big scam in West Bengal , I don't remember exactly , but it was some kind of Ponzi scheme

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/Chidambaram-for-plugging-regulatory-gaps-in-financial-sector/articleshow/20203564.cms

Sounds like Bitcoin to me as per the quote below. But with limited or no understanding of the technology involved.