As we see with MtGox, the current unregulated market system is not working.
Ah Ah Ah ... good joke.Same with a bank crash, to view what it happend ... ?
Topic: Market regulation without government involement (Read 978 times)
As we see with MtGox, the current unregulated market system is not working.
Ah Ah Ah ... good joke.Same with a bank crash, to view what it happend ... ?
Unregulated markets are the norm, and regulated markets are the exception.
I like old cars, and I own several. Their prices are totally unregulated, but the market commands that some cars which you could have bought for less than $5,000 ten years ago, now cost more than $10,000. I also collect old stones. Some people view my collection as totally worthless, but some other say it's priceless. This is how thing at my personal level, but the real big markets are no more regulated.
The price of oil is probably the thing which affects the most people, and its market is totally unregulated. Anyone here to guess what will be the price of gas next year? Next month? Nobody knows and that's fine. You just need to learn how to be comfortable in a world where's nothing safe. Note that the climate too, is unregulated.
I like old cars, and I own several. Their prices are totally unregulated, but the market commands that some cars which you could have bought for less than $5,000 ten years ago, now cost more than $10,000. I also collect old stones. Some people view my collection as totally worthless, but some other say it's priceless. This is how thing at my personal level, but the real big markets are no more regulated.
The price of oil is probably the thing which affects the most people, and its market is totally unregulated. Anyone here to guess what will be the price of gas next year? Next month? Nobody knows and that's fine. You just need to learn how to be comfortable in a world where's nothing safe. Note that the climate too, is unregulated.
Here's what government regulation of money gets you.
"If you stop sitting on your ass and act, then there can be regulations without government involvement"
"But, but... government regulations are bad.."
...
This is it, now I've lost all hope. Keep on chanting choo-choo and dream about buying lambos.
Hello bitcoin enthusiasts,
So, don't just sit on your ass, saying that the free market will fix everything! You are the "free market", or at least you are a part of it. If you don't act, then don't be surprised if the free market isn't acting either.
So, don't just sit on your ass, saying that the free market will fix everything! You are the "free market", or at least you are a part of it. If you don't act, then don't be surprised if the free market isn't acting either.
Something is being done. LocalBitcoins, BitStamp, Coinbase, Kraken, CAVirTex, BTC China, BTC-e, OTC, BitQuick, BitSimple, Bitcon ATMs, Bitcoin Nordic, ZipZap, MEXBT, etc. I am the "Free market" by sitting on my ass trading bitcoins on these sites. One Mt Gox dies, 10 alternatives feed on its carcass and grow into safer, faster, cheaper exchanges.
Here's what government regulation of money gets you.
LIBOR manipulation: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/just-beginning-bank-rate-manipulation-liabilities-may-top-176bn
Currency manipulation: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-07/scandal-bank-england-encouraged-currency-manipulation-private-banks
I'm working on solutions to these problems. smart accounting and self-regulation is the solution. its an approach where users enforce rules upon institutions, not by government authority but through market principles. you have the same kind of problem in the Alt-Coin market (a skewed balance between stock/coin issuers and buyers).
fiat exchanges are important, but not crucial. the influx of a more general public is not that important either. if the price of bitcoin would drop to 1$ by tomorrow, that would not change one bit in terms of the longterm impact. the network is extremely robust. even if the internet gets shut down, you start with a meshnet and localbitcoin. even if bitcoin itself fails, you just start a new chain. its completely unstoppable.
better solutions will emerge. in the long term the problem is also that exchanges are under control of the government. they are the end-nodes, and so if governments would want to shut down exchanges they can attack those end-nodes. but as fiat money and bank accounts are under their control, there is not a good solution for dealing with fiat. a smart thing to do would be to lever off-share locations, like US corporations do. you find some island or city state and get friendly with the big banks and central bank. you hook up to the SWIFT system. US/SWIFT would then try to shutdown this channel, as they do with countries they don't like.
and besides MtGox has done no innovation whatsoever. the only they had going for them was they were the first exchange. but the infrastructure they have is not worth a penny (obviously). they are a foot note of bitcoin history. perhaps they are insolvent, but the longterm effect will be zero. even if they are solvent, their share will go zero.
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The little coin that could've been something, but sadly didn't live up to it's potential...
fiat exchanges are important, but not crucial. the influx of a more general public is not that important either. if the price of bitcoin would drop to 1$ by tomorrow, that would not change one bit in terms of the longterm impact. the network is extremely robust. even if the internet gets shut down, you start with a meshnet and localbitcoin. even if bitcoin itself fails, you just start a new chain. its completely unstoppable.
better solutions will emerge. in the long term the problem is also that exchanges are under control of the government. they are the end-nodes, and so if governments would want to shut down exchanges they can attack those end-nodes. but as fiat money and bank accounts are under their control, there is not a good solution for dealing with fiat. a smart thing to do would be to lever off-share locations, like US corporations do. you find some island or city state and get friendly with the big banks and central bank. you hook up to the SWIFT system. US/SWIFT would then try to shutdown this channel, as they do with countries they don't like.
and besides MtGox has done no innovation whatsoever. the only they had going for them was they were the first exchange. but the infrastructure they have is not worth a penny (obviously). they are a foot note of bitcoin history. perhaps they are insolvent, but the longterm effect will be zero. even if they are solvent, their share will go zero.
It's the fair price for lack of regulation, as it creates the maximum possible levels of innovation but also allow the maximum possible levels of risk.
What kind of innovation is brought forward by a market system, where con artists can create new exchanges, steal their customers money and do it without any form of obstacles? Where is the innovation in the market system where the customer doesn't have any security in knowing if a certain exchange is a scam or not?Failures are annoying or painful but like in nature, they are required to assert the survival of the fittest.
Yes, and failure to act will be the end of the bitcoin world. Bitcoin users won't be fit enough to survive, since their idea in fixing problems is just to sit on their ass and wait for problems to fix themselves.The only troubling detail (IMHO) is that players in these unregulated markets apparently often don't see these risks and somehow believe they were entitled to or assume some form of protection - which doesn't exist.
Lack of survival instinct I'd call it, some others may just be unlucky (wrong time wrong place).
That's life. Unregulated, cruel, in some cases deadly.
Lack of survival instinct I'd call it, some others may just be unlucky (wrong time wrong place).
That's life. Unregulated, cruel, in some cases deadly.
Not lack of survival instincts but lack of information. The majority of society are not experienced in obtaining information through channels like this forum. Without experience, it's very hard to distinguish disinformation from information.
The majority of society will get their information on most known and simple information channels like bitcoin.org, that to this date, recommend MtGox as the nr. 1 exchange that should be used.
Elitist snobs of the bitcoin community like to say "If they can't extract information here, then they are stupid and to hell with them". But they are forgetting that this is the same as saying "to hell with bitcoin", because that majority of society would be the future of bitcoin, if bitcoin can survive. Without these people, there is no future for bitcoin and all the elitist snobs have to play their bitcoin game in singleplayer mode.
Noteworthy that the BTC world - by design - lacks any form of police or any form of group that could punish criminals/scammers etc. that exploit the system/harm other users.
Outside of verbal support in forums etc. it's everyone for themselves. Lonely individuals in a very hostile world.
IMHO this lession should be a bold, red, flashing Point 1 of every BitCoin education/information material presented to new members of the community.
Arguably not exactly good advertising material - but the tough, cruel truth.
Outside of verbal support in forums etc. it's everyone for themselves. Lonely individuals in a very hostile world.
IMHO this lession should be a bold, red, flashing Point 1 of every BitCoin education/information material presented to new members of the community.
Arguably not exactly good advertising material - but the tough, cruel truth.
There should be a central review system of different exchanges. An organization that does quarterly audits and check-ups on all the exchanges and then will post the results how cooperative and transparent were a particular exchange.
This all could be organized if there would be will to do so..
I myself am losing faith in the bitcoin community more and more every day. It seems like the get-rich-quick mentality is irreversibly dominant and the majority aren't willing to do any work for bigger gains. Most create illusions that all the problems will solve themselves and they can get rich just by buying low and selling high, while not spending a minute on something that would actually develop the bigger picture.
It was natural that bitcoin was the financial wild west when it's biggest utility was illegal activity in the tor network. Now when bitcoin wants to reach the threshold in being a serious financial tool, there also has to be some responsibility and order. Considering the current status, it's very unlikely that bitcoin will exceeds this threshold and it will probably be an temporary phenomenon. The little coin that could've been something, but sadly didn't live up to it's potential...
Unregulated markets will automatically encounter failures (of whatever kinds) and if they survive *, they evolve and grow stonger from it...
It's the fair price for lack of regulation, as it creates the maximum possible levels of innovation but also allow the maximum possible levels of risk.
Failures are annoying or painful but like in nature, they are required to assert the survival of the fittest.
The only troubling detail (IMHO) is that players in these unregulated markets apparently often don't see these risks and somehow believe they were entitled to or assume some form of protection - which doesn't exist.
Lack of survival instinct I'd call it, some others may just be unlucky (wrong time wrong place).
That's life. Unregulated, cruel, in some cases deadly.
Noteworthy that the BTC world - by design - lacks any form of police or any form of group that could punish criminals/scammers etc. that exploit the system/harm other users.
Outside of verbal support in forums etc. it's everyone for themselves. Lonely individuals in a very hostile world.
IMHO this lession should be a bold, red, flashing Point 1 of every BitCoin education/information material presented to new members of the community.
Arguably not exactly good advertising material - but the tough, cruel truth.
* Nature (defined as free, unregulated evolution in this case for ease of purpose) really doesn't care much if "survive" means only minor damage taken and needed adjustments adopted quickly - or a near-complete apocalypse that takes down >99% of a population which takes generations to recover.
I won't ponder these points too much in a BitCoin forum but people should consider these risks. Very unlikely to this date, but the potentially desasterous effects may require appropriate risk weighting even if deemed improbable during desired investment horizon.
I generally don't see BitCoin itself as risk-prone. As usual it's the humans in and around the system that tend to f*ck things up.
That's something humans really excel in. Especially when it comes to finances and money to be "aquired" by any means, lots of bad guys are quickly the be found nearby.
It's the fair price for lack of regulation, as it creates the maximum possible levels of innovation but also allow the maximum possible levels of risk.
Failures are annoying or painful but like in nature, they are required to assert the survival of the fittest.
The only troubling detail (IMHO) is that players in these unregulated markets apparently often don't see these risks and somehow believe they were entitled to or assume some form of protection - which doesn't exist.
Lack of survival instinct I'd call it, some others may just be unlucky (wrong time wrong place).
That's life. Unregulated, cruel, in some cases deadly.
Noteworthy that the BTC world - by design - lacks any form of police or any form of group that could punish criminals/scammers etc. that exploit the system/harm other users.
Outside of verbal support in forums etc. it's everyone for themselves. Lonely individuals in a very hostile world.
IMHO this lession should be a bold, red, flashing Point 1 of every BitCoin education/information material presented to new members of the community.
Arguably not exactly good advertising material - but the tough, cruel truth.
* Nature (defined as free, unregulated evolution in this case for ease of purpose) really doesn't care much if "survive" means only minor damage taken and needed adjustments adopted quickly - or a near-complete apocalypse that takes down >99% of a population which takes generations to recover.
I won't ponder these points too much in a BitCoin forum but people should consider these risks. Very unlikely to this date, but the potentially desasterous effects may require appropriate risk weighting even if deemed improbable during desired investment horizon.
I generally don't see BitCoin itself as risk-prone. As usual it's the humans in and around the system that tend to f*ck things up.
That's something humans really excel in. Especially when it comes to finances and money to be "aquired" by any means, lots of bad guys are quickly the be found nearby.
I was under the impression that Gox was attempting to comply with government regulations for ages now. Isn't that the reason for all the KYC/AML procedures they've implemented?
As I said, I don't think that government regulations are the answer. The market can fix this problem itself, but the market (meaning: the people involved) must act. Don't be just waiting for the government to swoop in and fix all your problems.
As we see with MtGox, the current unregulated market system is not working.
Sorry I must have misinterpreted that statement.
Many people are acting. They are fleeing Gox never to return.
Regulations have to come from inside the market system, or from the entire bitcoin society. Government will only take over if there is an empty vacuum in this organizational part. Why let it?
I don't think that fleeing MtGox with tail between your legs, to quietly lick your wounds, isn't very noble if you care about the integrity of bitcoin value. Just stand up and do something, because there is always something that can be done.
I was under the impression that Gox was attempting to comply with government regulations for ages now. Isn't that the reason for all the KYC/AML procedures they've implemented?
As I said, I don't think that government regulations are the answer. The market can fix this problem itself, but the market (meaning: the people involved) must act. Don't be just waiting for the government to swoop in and fix all your problems.
As we see with MtGox, the current unregulated market system is not working.
Sorry I must have misinterpreted that statement.
Many people are acting. They are fleeing Gox never to return.
I was under the impression that Gox was attempting to comply with government regulations for ages now. Isn't that the reason for all the KYC/AML procedures they've implemented?
As I said, I don't think that government regulations are the answer. The market can fix this problem itself, but the market (meaning: the people involved) must act. Don't be just waiting for the government to swoop in and fix all your problems.
I was under the impression that Gox was attempting to comply with government regulations for ages now. Isn't that the reason for all the KYC/AML procedures they've implemented?
It's a shame MtGox is the only exchange, and that people are forced to do business with it....
Not forced, but most are just uninformed.
Remember that places like this forum are very complex information channels to most people.
Most people, who are the new adopters and who should be the lifeblood of bitcoin, use the information they see on places like bitcoin.org that still recommends MtGox.
In the future, there has to be a well known review place that gives quarterly grading and reviews to the integrity of different exchanges. Then all the new adopters will be just as informed about the dangers of dealing with untrustworthy exchanges. This is the only way that I can see to deal with corruption, while keeping government regulation out of the bitcoin market system.
Hello bitcoin enthusiasts,
As we see with MtGox, the current unregulated market system is not working. One of the major exchanges has given a strong blow to the trust of the market system. Their constantly increasing problems with dollar or bitcoin withdrawals are raising real concern about their solvency or technical competence. People don't know if the problems lie in solvency, or in technical incompetence, that could result at lost private keys or getting hacked with bitcoins stolen. MtGox public relations part is also almost non-existent. They won't discuss about what is the nature of the problem, how they find to fix the problem or when will they do it. It feels like they have skipped country and left the automatic e-mail answerers on.
So, you see, the situation is quite serious with MtGox, that still is a big part of the bitcoin market. If it would come out, that MtGox has lost it's customers money or just stolen it, then the entire market integrity will take a big hit. People will start to wonder if their deposited fiat or bitcoins are ever safe in an bitcoin exchange. People will start to dis-trust every exchange, even those who have worked with integrity. To the larger masses, bitcoin will be the media event where a lot of people lost their money while investing into bitcoin. Larger masses won't distinguish MtGox with bitcoin after this.
So, I'll make a proposal.
The richest people who have earned their money with bitcoin and plan on doing so in the future, should come together and form a group. The group will investigate the situation with MtGox fully and see if there is an financial solution to these troubles. In other words, buy MtGox...
The group can ask an audit over MtGox entire company history and see what is the cause of their problems. If the problem is technical incompetence or careless financial decisions, both can be fixed with new investments and proper leadership.
I am writing this because it seems that the rate of new withdrawal problems is increasing. That shifts the probability from technical issues to solvency issues. If this problem will be dealt with quickly enough, then maybe it isn't over the point of no return. Sinking of MtGox isn't just another capitalistic road bump in the bitcoin history. It will hit hard, and it could be fatal. Just imagine those sad fathers and elderly people giving interviews how they lost their money investing in bitcoin. And yes, media will talk about people losing while investing in bitcoin, not investing in MtGox. It isn't a conspiracy that media will concentrate on bitcoin, because bitcoin just has been the hot subject, and talking about the fall of bitcoin, not MtGox, will bring the better ratings.
So, don't just sit on your ass, saying that the free market will fix everything! You are the "free market", or at least you are a part of it. If you don't act, then don't be surprised if the free market isn't acting either.
As we see with MtGox, the current unregulated market system is not working. One of the major exchanges has given a strong blow to the trust of the market system. Their constantly increasing problems with dollar or bitcoin withdrawals are raising real concern about their solvency or technical competence. People don't know if the problems lie in solvency, or in technical incompetence, that could result at lost private keys or getting hacked with bitcoins stolen. MtGox public relations part is also almost non-existent. They won't discuss about what is the nature of the problem, how they find to fix the problem or when will they do it. It feels like they have skipped country and left the automatic e-mail answerers on.
So, you see, the situation is quite serious with MtGox, that still is a big part of the bitcoin market. If it would come out, that MtGox has lost it's customers money or just stolen it, then the entire market integrity will take a big hit. People will start to wonder if their deposited fiat or bitcoins are ever safe in an bitcoin exchange. People will start to dis-trust every exchange, even those who have worked with integrity. To the larger masses, bitcoin will be the media event where a lot of people lost their money while investing into bitcoin. Larger masses won't distinguish MtGox with bitcoin after this.
So, I'll make a proposal.
The richest people who have earned their money with bitcoin and plan on doing so in the future, should come together and form a group. The group will investigate the situation with MtGox fully and see if there is an financial solution to these troubles. In other words, buy MtGox...
The group can ask an audit over MtGox entire company history and see what is the cause of their problems. If the problem is technical incompetence or careless financial decisions, both can be fixed with new investments and proper leadership.
I am writing this because it seems that the rate of new withdrawal problems is increasing. That shifts the probability from technical issues to solvency issues. If this problem will be dealt with quickly enough, then maybe it isn't over the point of no return. Sinking of MtGox isn't just another capitalistic road bump in the bitcoin history. It will hit hard, and it could be fatal. Just imagine those sad fathers and elderly people giving interviews how they lost their money investing in bitcoin. And yes, media will talk about people losing while investing in bitcoin, not investing in MtGox. It isn't a conspiracy that media will concentrate on bitcoin, because bitcoin just has been the hot subject, and talking about the fall of bitcoin, not MtGox, will bring the better ratings.
So, don't just sit on your ass, saying that the free market will fix everything! You are the "free market", or at least you are a part of it. If you don't act, then don't be surprised if the free market isn't acting either.
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