maximum amount of bitcoin that theoretically could be transferred

Itoo

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Quote from: alani123 on April 29, 2016, 08:16:29 PM

Quote from: schnuber on April 29, 2016, 07:48:22 PM

So is it kind of anticipated that one day we will shift the decimal point?

Not really. 1 bitcoin is 1 bitcoin, there have been attempts to make a certain denomination the main one but all failed or didn't receive enough adoption. Knowing that, do you really think that people would agree with such a major change as moving the decimal point when they don't even agree with the adoption of a certain name for a denomination? Worst case scenario is that a standard unit could be introduced but there's no guarantee it'll start being used by most users.

Denominations are what they are. You can denominate in whatever makes sense to you. The 'main' denomination will 'change' when adoption is wide enough (or the value high enough) that speaking or transacting in certain denominations makes sense. Right now, it doesn't make sense to transfer a billion satoshis or whatever when you can speak in smaller terms, of larger denominations.

Moloch

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Wasn't the number was chosen based upon computer maxint limitations?

The thing is... all values in a tx are in satoshi... so sending 1 BTC, is in the tx as 100000000 satoshi

If you send 21mil bitcoin, you would need to handle the integer in satoshi value:
2,100,000,000,000,000 (51 bits)

So you have the limitation of maxint, based on your programming language

Also... if you are going to change it to 12 decimal places... you have to re-code everything... the smallest unit is no longer 1 satoshi, but 1/10000 satoshi... that screws up everything... not just bitcoin core, but every business/website/wallet that creates or decodes raw transactions... its going to think its worth 10,000 times the value it really is

Cryddit

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Quote from: TierNolan on May 06, 2016, 11:04:28 AM

Quote from: Cryddit on May 02, 2016, 03:12:26 PM

So, people who use 'float' types to keep track of bitcoin amounts can do so without making roundoff errors in addition and subtraction.

Obviously, using floating point numbers for cash is a terrible idea. Having said that, doing it that way would at least reduce the damage caused. Do you know if that was intentional when picking the total money supply?

Yes, it was.

There are some languages (cough Javascript cough) where floats are the only kind of numbers available. Hal and Satoshi discussed how divisible a Bitcoin ought to be, figured there would be people who wanted to script stuff in browsers using Javascript and that was one of the limits.

Like you, Hal said that would be a terrible idea. He still acknolwedged that there would be people who wanted to do it.

It was decided "enough" because even if the entire M1 Money supply were replaced with Bitcoin, eight points of divisibility made the smallest unit (they weren't called Satoshis yet) still less than one $US penny.

dothebeats

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Quote from: bob123 on May 06, 2016, 04:45:37 AM

Quote from: alani123 on April 29, 2016, 08:16:29 PM

Quote from: schnuber on April 29, 2016, 07:48:22 PM

So is it kind of anticipated that one day we will shift the decimal point?

Not really. 1 bitcoin is 1 bitcoin, there have been attempts to make a certain denomination the main one but all failed or didn't receive enough adoption. Knowing that, do you really think that people would agree with such a major change as moving the decimal point when they don't even agree with the adoption of a certain name for a denomination? Worst case scenario is that a standard unit could be introduced but there's no guarantee it'll start being used by most users.

We still will shift the decimal point someday when price has risen extremely.
If 1 satoshi is gonna be worth 1 $ someday... there will be smaller units of bitcoins than satoshis.. e.g. 0.1 satoshi.

That kind of division would further confuse new users. If necessary, the system would adapt to the changes that occurred. What I'm worried about is not the further division of bitcoin into smaller units, but the devs who work into it not coming into an agreement regarding the matter.

TierNolan

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Quote from: Cryddit on May 02, 2016, 03:12:26 PM

So, people who use 'float' types to keep track of bitcoin amounts can do so without making roundoff errors in addition and subtraction.

Obviously, using floating point numbers for cash is a terrible idea. Having said that, doing it that way would at least reduce the damage caused. Do you know if that was intentional when picking the total money supply?

bob123

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Quote from: alani123 on April 29, 2016, 08:16:29 PM

Quote from: schnuber on April 29, 2016, 07:48:22 PM

So is it kind of anticipated that one day we will shift the decimal point?

Not really. 1 bitcoin is 1 bitcoin, there have been attempts to make a certain denomination the main one but all failed or didn't receive enough adoption. Knowing that, do you really think that people would agree with such a major change as moving the decimal point when they don't even agree with the adoption of a certain name for a denomination? Worst case scenario is that a standard unit could be introduced but there's no guarantee it'll start being used by most users.

We still will shift the decimal point someday when price has risen extremely.
If 1 satoshi is gonna be worth 1 $ someday... there will be smaller units of bitcoins than satoshis.. e.g. 0.1 satoshi.

Cryddit

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Those extra bits are not wasted.

By not requiring them, bitcoin's significant figures fit into the significand of IEEE 754 floating point numbers.

So, people who use 'float' types to keep track of bitcoin amounts can do so without making roundoff errors in addition and subtraction.

If you were to start using more significant bits (divide up into units smaller than satoshis) you'd get all kinds of stuff like java and javascript implementations that make invalid transactions because of roundoff errors.

danda

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Quote from: schnuber on April 29, 2016, 07:40:31 PM

Hello

In a tx output you specify how many satoshis you assign to it. This is a 8 byte value so the maximum amount of satoshis you could transfer theoretically would be 2^8*8 = 1.84e19 = 1.84e11 Bitcoins.
However, this wastes 4 !! digits as in practical terms the maximum amount of bitcoins can never exceed 2.1e7 bitcoins.
So actually it would make more sense if one satoshi was 1e-12 bitcoins instead of only 1e-8.

What do you think about it?

regards

I think that if designing an altcoin, that could be a good way to go.

However, I highly doubt bitcoin will ever change.

I base this on:

* changing it is a consensus level change requiring near unanimous agreement.
* people will never agree. Just look at the U.S. penny and nickel which cost more to produce than their face value. But we still have them.
* a lot of software has already been written that expects 8 decimals.
* look how much success big blockers have had.

Controversial changes to bitcoin are nearly impossible BY DESIGN.

alani123

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Quote from: schnuber on April 29, 2016, 07:48:22 PM

So is it kind of anticipated that one day we will shift the decimal point?

Not really. 1 bitcoin is 1 bitcoin, there have been attempts to make a certain denomination the main one but all failed or didn't receive enough adoption. Knowing that, do you really think that people would agree with such a major change as moving the decimal point when they don't even agree with the adoption of a certain name for a denomination? Worst case scenario is that a standard unit could be introduced but there's no guarantee it'll start being used by most users.

achow101

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Quote from: schnuber on April 29, 2016, 08:01:48 PM

Why do they cause problems, may you elaborate on that, please

That level of divisibility makes user usability problems. It allows for dust outputs and low fees.

A dust output is an output with a value less than 2730 satoshis. This can be a problem when sending transactions, especially with poorly written software which do not take into account dust outputs.

With low fees, satoshis allow for very small fees which can be problematic with getting transactions confirmed quickly.

schnuber

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Why do they cause problems, may you elaborate on that, please

achow101

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Quote from: schnuber on April 29, 2016, 07:48:22 PM

So is it kind of anticipated that one day we will shift the decimal point?

Perhaps, it all depends on the value of Bitcoin. The value of Bitcoin would have to go up significantly. Even today we don't need satoshis. They are simply too small and actually cause problems.

schnuber

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So is it kind of anticipated that one day we will shift the decimal point?

achow101

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Just writing some code

Quote from: schnuber on April 29, 2016, 07:40:31 PM

Hello

In a tx output you specify how many satoshis you assign to it. This is a 8 byte value so the maximum amount of satoshis you could transfer theoretically would be 2^8*8 = 1.84e19 = 1.84e11 Bitcoins.
However, this wastes 4 !! digits as in practical terms the maximum amount of bitcoins can never exceed 2.1e7 bitcoins.
So actually it would make more sense if one satoshi was 1e-12 bitcoins instead of only 1e-8.

What do you think about it?

regards

We don't need that level of division yet.

schnuber

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Merit: 18

Hello

In a tx output you specify how many satoshis you assign to it. This is a 8 byte value so the maximum amount of satoshis you could transfer theoretically would be 2^8*8 = 1.84e19 = 1.84e11 Bitcoins.
However, this wastes 4 !! digits as in practical terms the maximum amount of bitcoins can never exceed 2.1e7 bitcoins.
So actually it would make more sense if one satoshi was 1e-12 bitcoins instead of only 1e-8.

What do you think about it?

regards

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