Miners Are the Bears | Bitcointalksearch.org

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Quote from: DaveF on September 28, 2021, 09:12:24 AM

Miners are running a business. They are going to have to sell their BTC to pay bills that is just the way it is.
What they do with the rest depends on the business model.
If their model is to expand then they sell more BTC to get more miners & larger facilities.
If their model is diversification, then they sell more BTC to buy other coins.
If their model is to hold and grow then they sit on the coins.

Yes, Bitcoin miners should regularly sell their new BTC coins for fiat money in order to pay for electricity consumed and cover all other costs. Depending on the situation in the cryptocurrency market, most of the mining pools make a decent profit, so administrators can temporarily hold some of the mined coins. This would be a smart decision on their part because the Bitcoin price is likely to significantly rise over the next 3 years.

I guess the OP calls miners bears because he thinks they always dump all their BTC coins with no remainder on cryptocurrency exchanges. Of course not. Some miners act as long-term investors.

so98nn

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I believe that miners do not dump or sell off the money all at once. Most of the miners keep selling as they keep mining after calculating the profitability that is based on the expenses they made. I know this for sure because I am also mining on micro level. Whenever I am getting my coins I will usually check the price, will see whether it covers my expenses and still left out with my profits or not then will mostly sell on weekly to monthly basis. Usually selling means I would just convert the coins in USDT for stable rates and then whatever happens to market won't impact it anyways. So this is also one point, many miners won't convert to fiat immediately but to the USDT mostly.

But I am very sure that miners are not bears here. There is living proof too. Also we can also say that it's exchangers who are selling off and they are the bears! Many possibilities are there but we couldn't say for sure whose the bear.

Ziskinberg

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I don't blame miners for this and certainly don't see any manipulations happen that influence the trend but it was the market did this.

Will the miner made some benefits from this due to the surge of market transaction but not because of the bearish alone. It is a part of market changes, we're often experiencing this since before and I don't think how the miners took this responsibility as they are not the ones controlling the market. It is not them, it is a market feature and we need to understand this rather than blaming others.

Ararbermas

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Their work is different compared to investors wherein the only one who have big contribution in the market, so how comes miners can make the market bearish? Seems impossible because they are working for hasrates not the demand and supply of the market. Yes they're are useful but probably it's not how what you think mate in my personal opinion. Indeed ever since before i never heard such issue from miners, wherein only big investors can always influence the market..

Mr.sprin

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I think miners are not bears they spend capital to buy mining machines just like investors they spend capital to buy coins here are the same as looking for profit but in a different way.

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Miners do buy at low price and sell their mined btc and the one they bought at high price. The bearish may come with other reason but I do think that what I mentioned earlier are what the miners are doing.

pooya87

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If you think a little about what you say you will realize how silly that sounds like.
A bear is someone who believes that the price of what they have is going to go lower. Think about this a little, why would someone who thinks bitcoin price is going lower continue to mine bitcoin? That is their revenue and profit that is going to decrease. In other words if a miner thought price is going to go down they would stop mining instead of continue mining and sell at a loss!

Miners aren't bulls or bears mostly because majority of them aren't traders. If they sell they do it to cover their costs not because they think price is going to continue dropping (ie being a bear).

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Read what you write before clicking “Submit”; that's why it allows you to preview your message. The following sentence doesn't make a lot of sense.

Quote from: Cryptoababe on September 28, 2021, 04:52:57 AM

Also, with lesser miners, transaction hash rate will be low so sell off from them will always bring a positive result to the bitcoin network.

Assuming you mean “less” instead of “lesser” and “difficulty” instead of “transaction hash rate”, you still don't make much sense. Why would their sell-off benefit the Bitcoin network? If the difficulty drops, so does the security.

Miners are definitely not bears. It's in favor of them if the price rises, because they mine the same amount of BTC, but with an increased valuation. They're nothing, but bulls.

Leviathan.007

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lol don't blame the miners whenever you see a bearish price movement in the market the miners are usually sellers more than buyers in the market, but even if they see any coin they mine still this can not be a reason for a dump in the market. Just like anyone else and any other holder and investor, miners will try to sell the bitcoins as expensive he can so he usually tried to hold more than buy, this interest can make miners holders, they mostly have the interest to hold bitcoin so they can take advantage from the bullish price movement in long term.

marilynmanson21

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you can't say miners are bears, because miners are just one way of getting bitcoins and that too is done en masse and the fees for this global system are shared across thousands of computers, and they recoup their costs with newly mined Bitcoins. Long story short, this is a democratization of financial infrastructure.
so it's impossible if miners are said to be bears because they get bitcoins after the rest of the costs spent on mining

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Miners are not bears they research about coin and make and use their own strategies to earn profit. Traders buy ir sell coin on their own risk.

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Whalessell the news. When there are good news out there you can expect the price to dip as they accumulate the BTC sold by the retail investors and miners adds the bear trend of it as they have to pay bills.

The miners have to sell but I think more is going to sell for a higher price than the retailers. It's the crackdown that forced them to sell low, you can blame it all for the regulations and baning of miners.

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I might not call the miners the bears, especially if they are selling so that they could continue to operate efficiently. They need to sell. They cannot just shoulder all the operational costs out of their own pockets because they don't want to sell to avoid hurting the market.

It is not an issue of whether they believe in Bitcoin's price increase or not or whether they are bears or bulls. The point is that they have to sell because they need to pay the electricity, maintenance, and other regular expenses; or they need to do some upgrades. But they are aware of the market situation. They definitely do proper timing.

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Quote from: Cryptoababe on September 28, 2021, 04:52:57 AM

When BTC price drops due to sell off, People panic and say a lot of bad things. But what i think is miners need money probably to improve thier mining facilities. I never expect bitcoin miners to buy btc. All they should do is sell and probably upgrade mining facilities.
Also, with lesser miners, transaction hash rate will be low so sell off from them will always bring a positive result to the bitcoin network.

So, if miners sell, its mostly favorable because it gives people more opportunity to buy at discount prices, also gives miners more fund to upgrade thier mining facilities and helps the bitcoin network function more better.
So, Miners are the bears and they are Good for the Bitcoin Network.

I think the whales effect is have more impact than just a miner that want to sell their "ores" to buy new mining stuff because they won't do it together with other miners but whales is different. They have a group whales with millions dollars worth of cryptocurrency and when they decided to mass selling, the market will red. That's the power of the whales. And also supported with FUD with big media, people who panic or will follow their wave and having many losses.

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Quote from: Cryptoababe on September 28, 2021, 04:52:57 AM

So, Miners are the bears and they are Good for the Bitcoin Network.

Probably you mean miners are responsible for bearish markets when they sell their mined btcs, dumping the prices of crypto currencies in general. However, I don't think they are the main responsible for such events. I believe the real bears are the whales (people who hold large amounts of bitcoins, wealthy investors) who are constantly playing with market's prices for speculative reasons.
Anyway, miners are indeed good for blockchain network, you are right, as without them we wouldn't have our transactions completed. And it would be even better if there were more miners around, so the transactions costs would be cheaper for network's users.

yazher

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i don't agree if you say miners are bears, because miners do all that just want to make profit, they want to adopt longer, and hold bitcoin in the long term, no one is mining in vain, everyone needs profit including the miner alone..

Miners have their own strategy to make a profit in this industry and they also hold some significant roles in the price of the crypto market. it's just wrong to attribute to them the role of being bears because they seem not the kind of people who wanted to price to drop by just merely holding their bitcoins. Most likely they are being accused of something they are not because of their strategies to maintain the balance of how they can get profit on every time they mined bitcoins.

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Quote from: LFC_Bitcoin on September 28, 2021, 06:43:44 AM

Either way there is too much selling or manipulated, price suppression & not enough buying at the moment. I feel that $41,9xx is cheap right now. Hopefully the market agrees with me & the price goes up soon.

Yeah, instead of looking at the bad side on what is happening right now, regardless if the miners are supposedly dumping to keep their business running, still a best opportunity to buy at the current price.

We're not yet in the bear season, so I'm expecting that we will go back again at least to $43k-$48k which is the prior range before this dump to $41k.

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Quote from: Cryptoababe on September 28, 2021, 04:52:57 AM

So, if miners sell, its mostly favorable because it gives people more opportunity to buy at discount prices, also gives miners more fund to upgrade thier mining facilities and helps the bitcoin network function more better.

It's favorable for miners, not the whole market. All the hodlers have their wealth reduced, even if just temporarily. One dump can also trigger a bigger dump, for example if there's a lot of leveraged positions, or if speculators decide to trade based on momentum. And also such large dumps contribute to volatility, which hurts Bitcoin use as a currency. Would have been better if miners were selling their coins continuously.

Quote from: Cryptoababe on September 28, 2021, 04:52:57 AM

So, Miners are the bears and they are Good for the Bitcoin Network.

When Bitcoin drops everyone here starts talking about FUD and manipulation, maybe those things are also good for Bitcoin?

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Quote from: LFC_Bitcoin on September 28, 2021, 06:43:44 AM

Either way there is too much selling or manipulated, price suppression & not enough buying at the moment. I feel that $41,9xx is cheap right now. Hopefully the market agrees with me & the price goes up soon.

I read somewhere on the Internet that the biggest companies of crypto trading/managing in USA were moving funds from US to Canada because of more favorable laws for crypto there.US here is missing a lot of money and the money is flowing in another country.What I think is if they are smart the SEC https://www.sec.gov/ should move fast to bring the flow of money back in US,if they do so by mid of October where they have a meeting about this then we could see Bitcoin price already in 100.000 dollars in October.The only problem is that the Chairman of SEC has said we are going to act very prudently and very cautiously about this so he is not pro to such move,he needs to change his mind for the better of his country,the US.

Imran232

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Yeah, I also think bitcoin miners are another price-dumper. In that case, we can't blame them too, because if we had bitcoin and we saw that the bitcoin price was pumping and I could generate a profit at whatever price I sold, and there was a chance it would be dumped again, I would buy it again. Every time the market starts to pump, the miners sell their coins. Because they didn't buy the coin, they don't have to worry about the price factor. In that case, they think about selling it at a high price, then they could buy it at a low price again. So it's a market strategy that we all follow. So I don't think they should be blamed for this. They also had huge investments and daily electricity costs too.

OcTradism

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Quote from: Cryptoababe on September 28, 2021, 04:52:57 AM

So, if miners sell, its mostly favorable because it gives people more opportunity to buy at discount prices, also gives miners more fund to upgrade thier mining facilities and helps the bitcoin network function more better.
So, Miners are the bears and they are Good for the Bitcoin Network.

You can not generalize all miners like this.

Miners are like investors, they can be whale miners or retail miners. Retail miners will be panic and do panic sell and have pressure of electricity bill every month.

Whale miners don't have such panic or electricity bill pressure. They have solid vision and plan. They hold their Bitcoin from mining rewards and wait for tops to sell.

If I am not wrong, miners are holding their Bitcoin according to on-chain analysis from glassnode.

Miners can be bear when most of them capitulate in bear market or in crash like in May this year. Capitulation is signal of good growth later.

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Quote from: Cryptoababe on September 28, 2021, 04:52:57 AM

When BTC price drops due to sell off, People panic and say a lot of bad things. But what i think is miners need money probably to improve thier mining facilities. I never expect bitcoin miners to buy btc. All they should do is sell and probably upgrade mining facilities.
Also, with lesser miners, transaction hash rate will be low so sell off from them will always bring a positive result to the bitcoin network.

So, if miners sell, its mostly favorable because it gives people more opportunity to buy at discount prices, also gives miners more fund to upgrade thier mining facilities and helps the bitcoin network function more better.
So, Miners are the bears and they are Good for the Bitcoin Network.

Miners would only want bitcoin to be more bullish and it is less likely that they would sell and dump the market.
They know once a dump occurs more people do panic selling which creates a bigger dip.
This makes their holdings decrease in value. The reason why they are mining at first place is to make profits.
So I don't think they would create a dump by selling but instead take profits out at lesser intervals and reinvest in mining to make more bitcoins.

DaveF

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Miners are running a business. They are going to have to sell their BTC to pay bills that is just the way it is.
What they do with the rest depends on the business model.
If their model is to expand then they sell more BTC to get more miners & larger facilities.
If their model is diversification, then they sell more BTC to buy other coins.
If their model is to hold and grow then they sit on the coins.

As for the price flotations, there are probably a ton of people buying on the dips and selling on the highs and just repeating the cycle again and again.
Get in @ $41500 Sell @ $44500 and repeat. It keeps the price depressed, but traders don't care about the price they care about the percentage swings of the price.

-Dave

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Quote from: Cryptoababe on September 28, 2021, 04:52:57 AM

When BTC price drops due to sell off, People panic and say a lot of bad things. But what i think is miners need money probably to improve thier mining facilities. I never expect bitcoin miners to buy btc. All they should do is sell and probably upgrade mining facilities.
Also, with lesser miners, transaction hash rate will be low so sell off from them will always bring a positive result to the bitcoin network.

So, if miners sell, its mostly favorable because it gives people more opportunity to buy at discount prices, also gives miners more fund to upgrade thier mining facilities and helps the bitcoin network function more better.
So, Miners are the bears and they are Good for the Bitcoin Network.

Let's assume you own a factory and you produce a great product with a lot if demand in the market. Would you like to sell off your product at lesser value than the market price? Wouldn't you use the demand as a use case to increase your price so that you can inveat in better automation to further reduce your production cost thus increasing your profit margin?

You got it all wrong. Miners are not the ones behind the pumo and dump game. Also you are referring to the discounted price which may not be a reality unless you have fee million worth of trade volume.

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Either way there is too much selling or manipulated, price suppression & not enough buying at the moment. I feel that $41,9xx is cheap right now. Hopefully the market agrees with me & the price goes up soon.

btc_angela

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Lol, how can you say that miners is bears when they have a business model to follow and make profits as well. So just like any other business, if they need to cash out and dump of their stash to pay their operations then nothing is wrong with that. But saying that they are bears and implying that they are the cause of the massive dump or at least a dip right now is not right.

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Quote from: oktana on September 28, 2021, 05:19:50 AM

No no. I didn't mean it in that way. I was not referring to the OP. I was only dropping my thoughts. When I said FUD, I meant what has been happening lately.

And why did you felt the need to mention this?
Earthquakes, volcano eruptions, floods, and forest fires have been happening lately but I don't see any reason to mention them.
Now "chewing" you but I'm getting really tired to see FUD, FUD, FUD in every damn discussion.

Quote from: Cryptoababe on September 28, 2021, 05:22:17 AM

I thought miners favours hash rate because of the previous china bitcoin mining ban which leads to reduction in bitcoin hash rate back then.

Sorry but there is a language barrier here, I don't understand why you mean by "miners favours".I've got the impression from your first post that you've equaled less hash rate with less overall miners income but as I said, I'm not sure anymore since it's clear I'm not really getting what you aim at.

Quote from: Cryptoababe on September 28, 2021, 05:22:17 AM

ive looked at bitcoin mining as an important role to the bitcoin network. Is it not?

Yes, it is, and more than important it has a critical role, if there is no mining the whole system stops dead in its tracks.

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A "bear" is mostly someone or an entity that's "bearish" on Bitcoin, pretty much anyone who thinks Bitcoin is useless or something and will crash down. So why are miners considered bears if it's the fact that they actually think bitcoin mining is a good long-term business? They invested in hardware in the first place.

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Quote from: stompix on September 28, 2021, 05:14:19 AM

That's not how the hash rate works, there is no transaction hashrate, and there is nothing completely positive or negative in this.
Mining is a business simple as that, miners get paid and miners have expenses, without them investing in gear there is less security in the network, and the reward and the fees were set with this aspect in mind from the start. Just how anyone invests directly in bitcoin and decides to sell at a profit or keep it, so do miners, they can keep a part of the coins and sell all of them, you can't lump all of them in one category.

I thought miners favours hash rate because of the previous china bitcoin mining ban which leads to reduction in bitcoin hash rate back then.. Since then, ive looked at bitcoin mining as an important role to the bitcoin network. Is it not?

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Quote from: stompix on September 28, 2021, 05:14:19 AM

Quote from: oktana on September 28, 2021, 04:59:06 AM

I think the issue is FUD.

I think the issue is that lately nobody even bothers to read something before labeling it as FUD. What FUD is in this?

No no. I didn't mean it in that way. I was not referring to the OP. I was only dropping my thoughts. When I said FUD, I meant what has been happening lately. If you read my reply well, you'd clearly see that. And please don't chew me

.

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Quote from: Cryptoababe on September 28, 2021, 04:52:57 AM

Also, with lesser miners, transaction hash rate will be low so sell off from them will always bring a positive result to the bitcoin network.

That's not how the hash rate works, there is no transaction hashrate, and there is nothing completely positive or negative in this.
Mining is a business simple as that, miners get paid and miners have expenses, without them investing in gear there is less security in the network, and the reward and the fees were set with this aspect in mind from the start. Just how anyone invests directly in bitcoin and decides to sell at a profit or keep it, so do miners, they can keep a part of the coins and sell all of them, you can't lump all of them in one category.

Going by that logic mining gear manufacturers are also dumping as they mostly receive payments in crypto and they have to pay suppliers and workers in fiat.

Quote from: oktana on September 28, 2021, 04:59:06 AM

I think the issue is FUD.

I think the issue is that lately nobody even bothers to read something before labeling it as FUD. What FUD is in this?

oktana

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IMO, Miners aren't really the ones behind the dump. Even when we hit the latest all time high, there were still miners. Right?
I think the issue is FUD. Any little news against Bitcoin just creates FUD and a lot of people just fall for it unnecessarily. Like what happened a few days ago with China. Truth is, they'll always be FUD than any miner selling their bitcoins. Besides, volatility is the nature of Bitcoin and the bear run counts.

Cryptoababe

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When BTC price drops due to sell off, People panic and say a lot of bad things. But what i think is miners need money probably to improve thier mining facilities. I never expect bitcoin miners to buy btc. All they should do is sell and probably upgrade mining facilities.
Also, with lesser miners, transaction hash rate will be low so sell off from them will always bring a positive result to the bitcoin network.

So, if miners sell, its mostly favorable because it gives people more opportunity to buy at discount prices, also gives miners more fund to upgrade thier mining facilities and helps the bitcoin network function more better.
So, Miners are the bears and they are Good for the Bitcoin Network.

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