Mining is Gambling? | Bitcointalksearch.org

Argwai96

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Quote from: dsly on December 25, 2014, 03:04:29 PM

Quote from: Argwai96 on December 25, 2014, 02:53:58 PM

Quote from: michaeladair on December 21, 2014, 01:22:15 AM

Mining is not gambling, but SOLO MINING is gambling.
Especially if you're mining btc.

This is not true. If you have a big enough farm then solo mining is likely going to have a higher EV then pool mining because you will not have to deal with the risk of block withholding attacks on the pool nor with the risk of the pool scamming and not paying the miners

But 99% of the solo miners don't have a big enough mining farm. So its less likely to profit.

Do you have any stats on this or are you just making up that percentage? Miners have an incentive to do what is in their own best interest because they have ongoing expenses (electricity) and if they are not receiving a large enough of a payout they will not be able to pay their bills.

bigadam0101

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I thought that we are talking here about "gambling" metaphorically.. Roll Eyes

notlist3d

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Quote from: dsly on December 25, 2014, 03:04:29 PM

Quote from: Argwai96 on December 25, 2014, 02:53:58 PM

Quote from: michaeladair on December 21, 2014, 01:22:15 AM

Mining is not gambling, but SOLO MINING is gambling.
Especially if you're mining btc.

This is not true. If you have a big enough farm then solo mining is likely going to have a higher EV then pool mining because you will not have to deal with the risk of block withholding attacks on the pool nor with the risk of the pool scamming and not paying the miners

But 99% of the solo miners don't have a big enough mining farm. So its less likely to profit.

I don't look at it as gambling as much as a risky investment. Solo mine I wont touch because it's hard for most to justify.

BTC or any crypto currency is not a "AAA Bond" investment. If you are using it for retirement .... look at safer bets. If extra cash you don't mind more risk, then look at things including BTC.

dsly

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Quote from: Argwai96 on December 25, 2014, 02:53:58 PM

Quote from: michaeladair on December 21, 2014, 01:22:15 AM

Mining is not gambling, but SOLO MINING is gambling.
Especially if you're mining btc.

This is not true. If you have a big enough farm then solo mining is likely going to have a higher EV then pool mining because you will not have to deal with the risk of block withholding attacks on the pool nor with the risk of the pool scamming and not paying the miners

But 99% of the solo miners don't have a big enough mining farm. So its less likely to profit.

Argwai96

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Quote from: michaeladair on December 21, 2014, 01:22:15 AM

Mining is not gambling, but SOLO MINING is gambling.
Especially if you're mining btc.

This is not true. If you have a big enough farm then solo mining is likely going to have a higher EV then pool mining because you will not have to deal with the risk of block withholding attacks on the pool nor with the risk of the pool scamming and not paying the miners

picolo

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Quote from: michaeladair on December 21, 2014, 01:22:15 AM

Mining is not gambling, but SOLO MINING is gambling.
Especially if you're mining btc.

Mining is betting. Solo mining is gambling with a small edge (the pool fee you are not paying)

michaeladair

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I'm a Web Developer: HTML, CSS, PHP, JS.

Mining is not gambling, but SOLO MINING is gambling.
Especially if you're mining btc.

Seketsuna

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Quote from: hobala on December 21, 2014, 12:48:32 AM

mining is not have risk,lost your money like gambling

mining does have risk. Google translate failed you though Undecided

hobala

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mining is not have risk,lost your money like gambling

picolo

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Quote from: Bananana on December 19, 2014, 09:24:46 AM

To me, mining is same as buying bitcoin. They are both risky but is consider investment. Gambling is going to primedice and you know the result immediately (Win or lose!!).

When you gamble you are likely to lose but if you mine smartly you are likely to win.

Bananana

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To me, mining is same as buying bitcoin. They are both risky but is consider investment. Gambling is going to primedice and you know the result immediately (Win or lose!!).

picolo

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Quote from: caga on December 19, 2014, 12:33:55 AM

Quote from: bigadam0101 on December 18, 2014, 12:45:29 PM

Quote from: picolo on December 05, 2014, 06:06:58 PM

Quote from: huffdaddy5 on December 05, 2014, 04:06:05 PM

Is putting money in the stock market gambling or an investment? I would ask the same question about mining. Hell mining gold and drilling oil is starting to get harder due to falling prices of gold and oil... There is always some inherit form of risk in anything you invest in.

If you are not skilled, putting money in the stock market can be gambling but if you apply the correct reasoning you are likely to win.

It is impossible to predict price now. So we can say that for the most part it is a gamble ..

Maybe by next year, it wouldnt be a gamble once the halving happens.

If you buy at 0.0011 and you make 0.00085/week with a stable of decreasing difficulty you are likely to ROI.

caga

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Quote from: bigadam0101 on December 18, 2014, 12:45:29 PM

Quote from: picolo on December 05, 2014, 06:06:58 PM

Quote from: huffdaddy5 on December 05, 2014, 04:06:05 PM

Is putting money in the stock market gambling or an investment? I would ask the same question about mining. Hell mining gold and drilling oil is starting to get harder due to falling prices of gold and oil... There is always some inherit form of risk in anything you invest in.

If you are not skilled, putting money in the stock market can be gambling but if you apply the correct reasoning you are likely to win.

It is impossible to predict price now. So we can say that for the most part it is a gamble ..

Maybe by next year, it wouldnt be a gamble once the halving happens.

picolo

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Quote from: nwfella on December 07, 2014, 12:08:42 AM

When people ask me whether or not bitcoin mining is a gamble I usually tell them to think of it as more of a donation. Unless you really know what you are doing, have access to free or nearly free elctricity, and access to a data-center the size of a city block your basically donating money to hardware manufacturers to produce hardware that is pretty much guaranteed to be outdated in 6-9 months (tops). Sure, you'll earn a fraction of what you put into the hardware back in generated satoshi's, but the likelihood of your even recouping your initial investment is slim to none without some mighty creative day trading going on throughout the entire process.

If you buy GHS at 0.001/GHS (I am selling some as low) you can make 0.0038/month at current difficulty and the next difficulty is likely to be lower at this point... You could theoretically ROI in 2 and a half month and maybe really ROI in 3 or 3 and a half month

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9876230

bigadam0101

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Quote from: picolo on December 05, 2014, 06:06:58 PM

Quote from: huffdaddy5 on December 05, 2014, 04:06:05 PM

Is putting money in the stock market gambling or an investment? I would ask the same question about mining. Hell mining gold and drilling oil is starting to get harder due to falling prices of gold and oil... There is always some inherit form of risk in anything you invest in.

If you are not skilled, putting money in the stock market can be gambling but if you apply the correct reasoning you are likely to win.

It is impossible to predict price now. So we can say that for the most part it is a gamble ..

nwfella

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Well hello there!

When people ask me whether or not bitcoin mining is a gamble I usually tell them to think of it as more of a donation. Unless you really know what you are doing, have access to free or nearly free elctricity, and access to a data-center the size of a city block your basically donating money to hardware manufacturers to produce hardware that is pretty much guaranteed to be outdated in 6-9 months (tops). Sure, you'll earn a fraction of what you put into the hardware back in generated satoshi's, but the likelihood of your even recouping your initial investment is slim to none without some mighty creative day trading going on throughout the entire process.

bityfreaky

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In my opinion it is up to your style

picolo

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Quote from: huffdaddy5 on December 05, 2014, 04:06:05 PM

Is putting money in the stock market gambling or an investment? I would ask the same question about mining. Hell mining gold and drilling oil is starting to get harder due to falling prices of gold and oil... There is always some inherit form of risk in anything you invest in.

If you are not skilled, putting money in the stock market can be gambling but if you apply the correct reasoning you are likely to win.

huffdaddy5

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Is putting money in the stock market gambling or an investment? I would ask the same question about mining. Hell mining gold and drilling oil is starting to get harder due to falling prices of gold and oil... There is always some inherit form of risk in anything you invest in.

sumantso

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Quote from: FattyMcButterpants on December 04, 2014, 10:02:07 PM

Quote from: sumantso on December 02, 2014, 09:33:23 AM

Quote from: Argwai96 on November 24, 2014, 02:26:18 AM

Quote from: sumantso on November 23, 2014, 09:14:44 AM

In gambling you can win or lose, though on the average there will be a small loss due to house edge. In mining you can only lose, so its worse than gambling.

This is not true. If the difficulty increases at a slow enough pace then you can potentially earn more then the cost of the miner (or cost of mining contract for cloud mining) plus the cost of electricity. Although generally speaking, the cost of most miners is so high that the difficulty will need to increase at an unrealistically low pace

Even if the price doesn't increase, the difficulty will increase as newer miners are made. Their is only ones making a profit in all these are the mining companies.

Well the difficulty recently decreased (by a very small amount) the last difficulty adjustment, and could potentially decrease this adjustment as well. With a very low increase adjustment (or negative increase adjustment) environment miners could earn more money. Anyone buying a miner is essentially betting that the difficulty is not going to rise at a very fast pace

You have to keep in mind that newer chips are round the corner. The game of trying to get one up will always keep happening. The difficulty dipped recently but thats a blip and I fully expect it to continue rising.

lili song

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Trading almost same as gambling I think
because
We can't predict it,
Trading & gambling will make profit and also make a loss

But if we know about trading market situation , we can still make a profit.
Meanwhile, gambling is being control by house edge. Experienced gambler also can loss

byronbb

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Quote from: picolo on December 02, 2014, 06:36:24 PM

Quote from: byronbb on December 02, 2014, 06:21:53 PM

Mining is risk taking with a possible outcome of profit or loss. Gambling always ends in a loss over the long term.

If you mine buying up 0.6-2$/GHS with high maintenance fees you will lose in the long term with no chance of winning in BTC even in the short term.

But that is stupid. That's like saying burning a $100 bill isn't profitable.

ezeminer

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Lie down. Have a cookie

Having less difficulty prolongs the profits for you.

But as the gambling idea goes it is pool mining vs solo mining.
Pool mining- with a large enough pool there is a good enough chance to have constant ROI
Solo mining- Solo luck of the draw vs the rest of the network.

FattyMcButterpants

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Quote from: sumantso on December 02, 2014, 09:33:23 AM

Quote from: Argwai96 on November 24, 2014, 02:26:18 AM

Quote from: sumantso on November 23, 2014, 09:14:44 AM

In gambling you can win or lose, though on the average there will be a small loss due to house edge. In mining you can only lose, so its worse than gambling.

This is not true. If the difficulty increases at a slow enough pace then you can potentially earn more then the cost of the miner (or cost of mining contract for cloud mining) plus the cost of electricity. Although generally speaking, the cost of most miners is so high that the difficulty will need to increase at an unrealistically low pace

Even if the price doesn't increase, the difficulty will increase as newer miners are made. Their is only ones making a profit in all these are the mining companies.

Well the difficulty recently decreased (by a very small amount) the last difficulty adjustment, and could potentially decrease this adjustment as well. With a very low increase adjustment (or negative increase adjustment) environment miners could earn more money. Anyone buying a miner is essentially betting that the difficulty is not going to rise at a very fast pace

picolo

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Quote from: byronbb on December 02, 2014, 06:21:53 PM

Mining is risk taking with a possible outcome of profit or loss. Gambling always ends in a loss over the long term.

If you mine buying up 0.6-2$/GHS with high maintenance fees you will lose in the long term with no chance of winning in BTC even in the short term.

byronbb

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HODL OR DIE

Mining is risk taking with a possible outcome of profit or loss. Gambling always ends in a loss over the long term.

picolo

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Quote from: sumantso on December 02, 2014, 09:33:23 AM

Quote from: Argwai96 on November 24, 2014, 02:26:18 AM

Quote from: sumantso on November 23, 2014, 09:14:44 AM

In gambling you can win or lose, though on the average there will be a small loss due to house edge. In mining you can only lose, so its worse than gambling.

This is not true. If the difficulty increases at a slow enough pace then you can potentially earn more then the cost of the miner (or cost of mining contract for cloud mining) plus the cost of electricity. Although generally speaking, the cost of most miners is so high that the difficulty will need to increase at an unrealistically low pace

Even if the price doesn't increase, the difficulty will increase as newer miners are made. Their is only ones making a profit in all these are the mining companies.

If you buy some cloud mining services or cheap hardware, you have free or very cheap electricity and the difficulty doesn't increase too much, you will theoretically ROI in BTC.

sumantso

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Quote from: Argwai96 on November 24, 2014, 02:26:18 AM

Quote from: sumantso on November 23, 2014, 09:14:44 AM

In gambling you can win or lose, though on the average there will be a small loss due to house edge. In mining you can only lose, so its worse than gambling.

This is not true. If the difficulty increases at a slow enough pace then you can potentially earn more then the cost of the miner (or cost of mining contract for cloud mining) plus the cost of electricity. Although generally speaking, the cost of most miners is so high that the difficulty will need to increase at an unrealistically low pace

Even if the price doesn't increase, the difficulty will increase as newer miners are made. Their is only ones making a profit in all these are the mining companies.

picolo

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Quote from: Puppet on November 24, 2014, 03:35:33 AM

Quote from: Argwai96 on November 24, 2014, 02:26:18 AM

This is not true. If the difficulty increases at a slow enough pace then you can potentially earn more then the cost of the miner (or cost of mining contract for cloud mining) plus the cost of electricity.

If/when there is that potential, then why would it not be exploited by other miners, or more likely, the asic vendors themselves? And as they exploit it with their cheaper hardware and usually, cheaper bulk electricity rates, in smoke goes your potential profit.

The comparison with gambling wasnt bad at all, some gamblers will win, but the average gambler will make a small loss due to the house edge. Just like the average miner will lose, just substantially more and it all goes to the asic vendors.

It's a bit like a gambling game where some can have a positive edge

Puppet

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Quote from: Argwai96 on November 24, 2014, 02:26:18 AM

This is not true. If the difficulty increases at a slow enough pace then you can potentially earn more then the cost of the miner (or cost of mining contract for cloud mining) plus the cost of electricity.

If/when there is that potential, then why would it not be exploited by other miners, or more likely, the asic vendors themselves? And as they exploit it with their cheaper hardware and usually, cheaper bulk electricity rates, in smoke goes your potential profit.

The comparison with gambling wasnt bad at all, some gamblers will win, but the average gambler will make a small loss due to the house edge. Just like the average miner will lose, just substantially more and it all goes to the asic vendors.

Argwai96

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Quote from: sumantso on November 23, 2014, 09:14:44 AM

In gambling you can win or lose, though on the average there will be a small loss due to house edge. In mining you can only lose, so its worse than gambling.

This is not true. If the difficulty increases at a slow enough pace then you can potentially earn more then the cost of the miner (or cost of mining contract for cloud mining) plus the cost of electricity. Although generally speaking, the cost of most miners is so high that the difficulty will need to increase at an unrealistically low pace

Sempruls

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Mining is long term gambling Cheesy

notlist3d

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I think it depends on what your doing. Some will invest with little to no ROI math. Or invest in cloud companies that are unproven. Truly a throw of the dice.

Others put more time in it. It is more of a investment. Yes a risky investment, it's no bond or safe yield. It would be considered a risky investment. But if you have cheap electricity you might just make a gain and have a good time if you enjoy mining. You have to enjoy it if you don't you should buy direct.

picolo

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Quote from: gingpark on November 23, 2014, 07:53:23 PM

Quote from: allcoinminer on November 19, 2014, 03:07:46 AM

Do you think mining with a hardware or cloud mining contracts is like gambling at this point in time?

I think it is a pretty big gamble for cloud mining just because of how throughout the year there has been bitcoin companies losing bitcoin through hacks.

Plus if they go out of business you would lose whatever contract you purchased.

I see this as a much larger risk since you are trusting a third party to follow through with the contracts.

Also there is the risk of them just not paying you at all cause you just never know?

On the other side for hardware I think this one is pretty much playing with words and does fit into yes and no.

I think at this point if you are trying to go in it now to get rich in a short period, this would be a gamble.

Then there is also just helping the bitcoin community on your own especially if you get free electricity.

If electricity start getting to high can always sell the miners for something instead of leaving it off like I did during the summer.

You can make money cloud mining with low maintenance fees, cheap GHS and a company that does business the right way

Snipe85

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Infleum

I think all stock market investments are close to gambling, same as all crypto investments even the praised by all "hodling". The difference is in the risk. Cloud mining is more risky than mining and mining is more risky than holding coins, which is more risky than holding fiat Wink

gingpark

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-All Investment Has its Risks and Rewards-

Quote from: allcoinminer on November 19, 2014, 03:07:46 AM

Do you think mining with a hardware or cloud mining contracts is like gambling at this point in time?

I think it is a pretty big gamble for cloud mining just because of how throughout the year there has been bitcoin companies losing bitcoin through hacks.

Plus if they go out of business you would lose whatever contract you purchased.

I see this as a much larger risk since you are trusting a third party to follow through with the contracts.

Also there is the risk of them just not paying you at all cause you just never know?

On the other side for hardware I think this one is pretty much playing with words and does fit into yes and no.

I think at this point if you are trying to go in it now to get rich in a short period, this would be a gamble.

Then there is also just helping the bitcoin community on your own especially if you get free electricity.

If electricity start getting to high can always sell the miners for something instead of leaving it off like I did during the summer.

WaffleMaster

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It's like gambling only with the 100% probability you will lose. So you might want to take your money to a texas holdem table Wink

picolo

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Quote from: eoakland on November 23, 2014, 06:24:45 AM

No, mining is not gambling. you know going into it what you will earn daily with a fair certainty. a better question would be, do most mining profits end up getting gambled ? A LOT Grin

If you invest 100 and you get back 80 you lost money.

Mining is betting.

sumantso

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In gambling you can win or lose, though on the average there will be a small loss due to house edge. In mining you can only lose, so its worse than gambling.

eoakland

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No, mining is not gambling. you know going into it what you will earn daily with a fair certainty. a better question would be, do most mining profits end up getting gambled ? A LOT Grin

caga

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It might be compared to gambling, nowdays specially when price is so low. But before, it has always been profitable, if you have electricity available at a cheap cost.

picolo

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Quote from: allcoinminer on November 19, 2014, 03:07:46 AM

Do you think mining with a hardware or cloud mining contracts is like gambling at this point in time?

It's like betting on sports; you are not sure you will profit. You do a calculation (or you don't) and you go with it.

bigadam0101

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Can you do me a favour.. please change your signature.. please please.. Grin

SpanishSoldier

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Quote from: philipma1957 on November 20, 2014, 05:21:04 PM

BTC mining at favorable odds is investing.
BTC mining at unfavorable odds is gambling.

Most people use definitions as they want. Some say putting up any money of any kind is a gamble even when odds are in their favor.

WoW... golden words. I love the way u put it

Odds can be calculated in mining and none can cheat u here in terms of odds like a gambling site.

botija

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Quote from: allcoinminer on November 19, 2014, 03:07:46 AM

Do you think mining with a hardware or cloud mining contracts is like gambling at this point in time?

Yes, you're taking a gamble, because you don't know what the price of Bitcoin will be in the future.

Seketsuna

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Quote from: bajlox on November 20, 2014, 08:20:01 AM

This is not gamble it luck.
Who is lucky will have more who is not wont.

Simple

google translate has failed you my friend.

Simple

philipma1957

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'The right to privacy matters'

BTC mining at favorable odds is investing.
BTC mining at unfavorable odds is gambling.

Most people use definitions as they want. Some say putting up any money of any kind is a gamble even when odds are in their favor.

Veridis

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Not really.
These Cloud miners are just a risk. Is crossing a road without looking both ways necessarily gambling?

bajlox

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This is not gamble it luck.
Who is lucky will have more who is not wont.

Simple

azguard

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Quote from: conteaza on November 19, 2014, 01:35:50 PM

Quote from: Puppet on November 19, 2014, 12:18:33 PM

Quote from: PolarPoint on November 19, 2014, 12:17:12 PM

IMO mining is gambling. Mining is gambling on the difficulty hikes. If difficulty do not continue to rise exponentially, miners win.

If miners "win", ie, profit, then difficulty will continue to rise exponentially until they no longer win.

If they reach 2x and more profit after the difficulty will rise this is a big "win"

But you have to reach it.
When you look at thinks from perspective it sometimes a big gamble.

conteaza

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Quote from: Puppet on November 19, 2014, 12:18:33 PM

Quote from: PolarPoint on November 19, 2014, 12:17:12 PM

IMO mining is gambling. Mining is gambling on the difficulty hikes. If difficulty do not continue to rise exponentially, miners win.

If miners "win", ie, profit, then difficulty will continue to rise exponentially until they no longer win.

If they reach 2x and more profit after the difficulty will rise this is a big "win"

Puppet

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Quote from: PolarPoint on November 19, 2014, 12:17:12 PM

IMO mining is gambling. Mining is gambling on the difficulty hikes. If difficulty do not continue to rise exponentially, miners win.

If miners "win", ie, profit, then difficulty will continue to rise exponentially until they no longer win.

PolarPoint

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IMO mining is gambling. Mining is gambling on the difficulty hikes. If difficulty do not continue to rise exponentially, miners win.

Puppet

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Quote from: kuverty on November 19, 2014, 12:09:34 PM

mining is very predictable. no deep strategies are needed either.

Really? Then please predict me the next difficulty change and the difficulty in 6 months.

kuverty

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Quote from: BitcoinExchangeIndia.com on November 19, 2014, 07:01:00 AM

Quote from: allcoinminer on November 19, 2014, 03:07:46 AM

Do you think mining with a hardware or cloud mining contracts is like gambling at this point in time?

According to Bitcoin protocol, luck is the inherent factor of Bitcoin mining, say it is hardware mining or cloud mining, because, given the same hash power, you never know who is going to find the correct hash before the other.

This. I don't say "mining bitcoin", I say "lottoing". It's only by chance that one finds a block. Mining in a pool makes it more steady, but it is gambling nevertheless. No problem though, it's possible to make money gambling and mining is very predictable. no deep strategies are needed either.

BitcoinExchangeIndia.com

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Quote from: allcoinminer on November 19, 2014, 03:07:46 AM

Do you think mining with a hardware or cloud mining contracts is like gambling at this point in time?

According to Bitcoin protocol, luck is the inherent factor of Bitcoin mining, say it is hardware mining or cloud mining, because, given the same hash power, you never know who is going to find the correct hash before the other.

Watoshi-Dimobuto

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Yes!

Quote from: Puppet on November 19, 2014, 04:13:11 AM

You'd have to define the term "gambling" to me first. Wikipedia defines it as:

"Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. Gambling thus requires three elements be present: consideration, chance and prize"

By that definition, Id have to say it is indeed gambling. Your investment constitutes consideration, future difficulty is uncertain and for most people the intent is to profit. At the same time, I have trouble seeing how any form of investment wouldnt constitute a gamble using the same definition.

Yes, it is gambling.

Puppet

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You'd have to define the term "gambling" to me first. Wikipedia defines it as:

"Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. Gambling thus requires three elements be present: consideration, chance and prize"

By that definition, Id have to say it is indeed gambling. Your investment constitutes consideration, future difficulty is uncertain and for most people the intent is to profit. At the same time, I have trouble seeing how any form of investment wouldnt constitute a gamble using the same definition.

Josepht

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I'd change the poll if I was you. I can choose 3 out of the 3 options. So I am able to vote for yes and no at the same time Huh

caga

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Quote from: allcoinminer on November 19, 2014, 03:07:46 AM

Do you think mining with a hardware or cloud mining contracts is like gambling at this point in time?

You can't call it gambling, as its clearly not it. However, some people think that there is a risk while investing in cloudmining contracts , however, if you take decisions in a wrong way, then it might just be.

allcoinminer

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Do you think mining with a hardware or cloud mining contracts is like gambling at this point in time?

Topic: Mining is Gambling? (Read 5116 times)