Topic: Money over IP a threat to bitcoin (Read 9055 times)

These are the reason why I believe bitcoin will succeed.

All of this video:
http://www.ted.com/talks/simon_sinek_how_great_leaders_inspire_action.html

This article:
http://news.rpi.edu/luwakkey/2902

Second half of this video (entire thing is worth watching):
http://www.ted.com/talks/seth_godin_on_sliced_bread.html

Payment processors don't have the above. Bitcoin enticed a variety of people with its pseudo-anonymity, volatile market, and decentralization. Those users came to understand the brilliance of bitcoin which led them to become proponents of bitcoin. That's what happened to me anyway.

None of those payment processors have a user base like bitcoin does. They don't even get half the publicity bitcoin does.

When you say "failure of fiat" you mean what exactly?  Every single fiat in the history of mankind has failed either outright or by massive inflation.  100% failure rate.  There's plenty of issues for bitcoin but depending on failure of fiat isn't one of them.

it will never happen because then venmo loses the float, they have nothing to gain and everything to lose....especially since at this point in time the success of their business is contingent on the banks goodwill

They don't move the money, its just a float that credits your venmo account, to actually receive the funds in your bank account/use the funds for payment outside the venmo network would still require the standard 1-5 business days. There propostition is that it will hit a network effect and you will never need to go in and out of the venmo network i.e. venmo replaces the utility of bitcoin, or a venmo dollar is a different dollar in terms of liquidity as we currently see on mt gox

PS how the fuck did you get to speak at wharton ?

I am trying to do something like that with Bridgewalker (https://www.bridgewalkerapp.com/ - "a euro-denominated wallet for the Bitcoin economy"). It currently doesn't have a focus on "social features", but it would be possible to add that. Hit me up if you have any feedback!

Way lower fees for most transactions.

What is the advantage of Dwolla over Paypal, then?  (The disadvantage of Dwolla, of course, is that 96% of the world can't use it - but just curious as to what the advantage is for those of you who can.)

Simply because this is a POSSIBLE solution (not saying it will happen) is essentially why this is no threat to Bitcoin.

+1

+1

Venmo isn't money over IP - it's Paypal with a mobile/social interface. Bitcoin is money over IP because it's a protocol for transferring value between users on the internet, and it's a platform for higher-level services.

Venmo isn't a distributed protocol or platform, it's a centralized single entity that removes some of the friction in transferring USD within US borders. It's still subject to all the problems of Paypal - that of arbitrary account suspensions, seizures, and blocking of payments.

You can't use Venmo to transmit money internationally, store value without fear of seizure, hedge against inflation, purchase goods/services with relative privacy, activate an online business instantly, engage freely in voluntary transactions with anyone on the planet, accept payments without risk of chargebacks, and so on.

Bitcoin and Venmo offer different value propositions. Venmo is more of a threat to Paypal than it is to Bitcoin.

A service that provides the ability to easily transfer a medium of exchange with no value has no value.

For all those who are criticizing others as "fiat currency fear mongers" I suggest you read history. Go read the the recent IMF report that explains how to steal 10% of people's wealth. Go ask a Cypriot how easy it is to access what's left of their money.

Gold as a store of value. Sure, but it has counterparty risk unless you have it on hand. Also, many claim that the amount of physical gold is dwarfed by the paper claims on the metal thereby preventing true price discovery. It's much easier, safer, and transparent to store bitcoins either in your own wallet or for a small fee with a trusted third party where the actual bitcoin's existence can be audited with a quick look at the blockchain.
There will never be an "Audit the Bitcoin" movement.

Venmo can kiss my bitcoin ass. 

BTC is a store of value and trade first and, an everyday currency next. Most ALTs are better at currency as they confirm in seconds

Just got back from speaking at a conference at Wharton- some kid showed me this app, it's really sick. I have no idea how they move the money so quickly tho.

It doeasnt depend on the failure of fiat, so much as the fear of failure of fiat. FOFOF!

+1 exactly that

Made my day, thanks afbitcoins

Um
Ok another thread where people talk about something that isn't a threat to bitcoin as if it has any possibility of ever becoming a threat to bitcoin.

MoIP? V whatever? RIPPLE? Come on guys. Next thing you know someone is going to make a thread "Is Square a thread to bitcoin?"
Bitcoin is clunky beta shit with bugs and a roller coaster exchange rate and is under heavy attack from banks and regulators. It's achieved widespread success not because of a flashy name and hip product branding but becuase it has the potential to free us from the tyranny of the [insert whatever group of tyrants you think is fucking with the economy]

I mean come on. AmazonCoins a threat to bitcoin? Get a clue, people.

I don't think it is a threat. BTC has so many advantages over services like PP.

RationalSpeculator I like the cut of your jib


In response to other comments there is no point comparing bitcoins to things like paypal or whatever, bitcoins is like gold

A lot of digital payment systems dont have what bitcoin does.  Its global footprint.  I think third world countries and non western ones find more accessible to bitcoin because these other payment systems are using USD. 

it is not a threat to bitcoin it is a threat to bitcoin adoption. If we assume that venmo will attempt to capitalize their network by becoming the cash over IP gurilla, well then you could send tips to people on youtube/this forum through venmo. its basically kills bitcoins added utility besides a safe heaven, but if all we need is a safe heaven then why not gold? I understand that logically one could still argue that bitcoin has many merits, so does pgp encryption, but for some reason it never caught on, all i am saying is that the way the "cards have been dealt" right now i am not as bullish of bitcoin receiving mass adoption

Okay so venmo is an interface to the banks to make payments?

Thus it is then regulated and centralized.

Remind me how it is a threat to bitcoin?

The weakness of many of the pro-bitcoin arguments in this thread, is Bitcoin's success depends on the failure of fiat.  Not a viable business model, IMO.  The masses aren't ideological.  They just want simple and cost effective means to move money.  Digital, fiat...who cares.  Their lives are not dominated by economic paranoia or some desire for decentralization and thus any simple and safe service will do.  Bitcoin is not yet on that level of simplicity and it's for this reason that other services are crushing Bitcoin in adoption rates.  As has been said over and over again...when people stop following the Bitcoin zeolots into the obscurity, maybe some real innovations will come about to put Bitcoin on a level that's actually appealing to the masses.  That said, a 20% Bitcoin success rate is probably very generous.

First time I hear about this V-thingy. Is it a US service, as people were also talking about Dwolla, which I associate with money processing failure in US with regard to Gox?

The fact that you have 10% of those bitcoin start ups is misleading. that is not "good news" as fiat + IP has been around for a while and therefore the startup "uproar" should not be at its peak. (e.g paypal) Bitcoin is new with an ATH of publicity in the last few months, and all we have is fucking coin base (not even close to venmo UI) and bit pay (i don't even get what they do that coin base doesn't  besides provide you with some automated QR)

Just to put that into perspective:

There are now 725 startups listed under Payments on AngelList
https://angel.co/payments
Venmo is just one of them

Top 25 (bitcoin companies in bold):

WePay
Stripe
Klarna
Balanced
Coinbase
Recurly
Venmo
Vend
Abine
Cover
Dwolla
BitPay
ClairMail
Square
Clover
SlidePay
Signifyd
peerTransfer
PayNearMe
Ribbon
SeatMe
Clinkle
card.io
PayDragon
ShopSavvy

+1 true, vc money is raining down on mobile payment start-ups, and a lot of them fail anyway. i had talks to a vc company earlier this year. they had no clue what bitcoin was. we tried to explain.

vc: "but if there are only 21 mio ever created, this can never fuel an economy"
us: "no, that does not matter, you can devide bitcoins into smaller fraction.... ...down to a satoshi..."
vc: "but deviding them does not make more bitcoins available"
us: "it does, it will be smaller fractions of a bitcoin.... (trying to explain like to kid)
vc: "nah, i don´t believe it"
us: "but it is a fact,..."
vc: "you say it is a fact, i don´t believe it"
us:

that was the head of a very succesful vc company. we could hardly explain our business idea, since we had to explain the bitcoin project. whenever you talk to vc in europe, be prepared...

as prob mentioned. this is fiat ONLY. it's 100% identifiable and trackable. it's US only and won't work well across borders. and frankly i think it's kind of pointless to a degree. it's also pegged to fiat. anyways - this is no competition this is just another paypal

Yeah, I think that's pretty much the message here. Adoption will require considerable utility, emphasis on top notch UI, and effective marketing of both. We're certainly not there.

Don't forget too that Bitcoin is a protocol - not an app  (like http vs a web browser).

All someone needs to do is write a wrapper so that you can send directly to someone's email or facebook account, and you're all set.  If the W3C standard on web payments integrates it, then Bitcoin will instantly become accessible to over a billion people.

We just need some better, slicker, more user-friendly tools.


Oh, and a cool promotional video with lots of trendy people. 

Thank you for the article.

Venmo is yet another bandaid.  Bitcoin is the ultimate cure.

Let's hope the planet figures out quickly that it's got more than just a flesh wound.

+1
A friend of mine just started working for a new start-up that just received a large investment to create a mobile payment product for use in a Latin American country.

ding ding ding, winner! or maybe just paranoia.

not a direct competitor in any way to Bitcoin; venmo is only a transmittance system, not both a transmittance and currency like BTC. in fact, venmo and btc could even work together someday.

I wouldn't assume they intend to stay domestic only... but transitioning into an international platform entails significant overhead. There are dozens of companies moving into this sector, and if you are going to dismiss them on this basis, just wait a couple years.


As far as mention of Ripple goes, it's a bad analogy. People are already very comfortable with services like Venmo. Ripple? They don't even understand crypto-currency. They don't want to bother with figuring out trust and debt systems with endless issuers of the same currency (which may or may not be liquid). Ripple is even much less appealing than bitcoin in this respect.


This. It's a bit early to be dismissive on the basis of adoption. Credit cards and overnight bank transfers with instant processing with a sleek, social networking-oriented interface -- this niche is going to be extremely important going forward. And Venmo is not the only company occupying it by any means.


This is my experience as well.

It's strange that I often see bitcoiners hyping its use as currency to make a case for mass adoption... but then they dismiss out of hand the implications of having well-developed products occupying the same niche. If we're just talking about "sound money" -- that's a hell of a lot less attractive to potential adopters.

People here are comparing bitcoin to Venmo. That's the wrong way to look at this. We should be comparing bitcoin to the mobile payment and mobile billing sector. Paypal, Wipit, Clover, Square, Zapp/WorldPay, M-Pesa, Dwolla, Google Wallet, TapFunder/WePay, BuyReply, Stripe, Boku, Zong, Fortumo, text2pay, impulsepay, junglepay, onebip, BilltoMobile, Dash, etc. ad nauseum. Shit, I mean..... WorldPay partnering with Zapp means you'll be able to instantly pay vendors like McDonald's with a QR code. Facebook confirmed a few weeks ago that they are testing a portable wallet that will process payments via third parties like Paypal and Braintree.

There's a hell of a lot more money being invested into mobile payment start-ups than any start-ups related to bitcoin. That's for sure.

did venmo pay for this adverthreadisment?

 
[/quote]

+1

I like to add donations though.

I notice that I am much quicker donating to people thanks to btc. Donating with paypal is less fun and if I do it I pay less. Ie: I donate much more easily higher value with bitcoin.

When I donate in bitcoin I know people will remember how many btc I gave, and likely in a few years when btc is up, my donation to them will go up in value in their mind.

It's like donating a valuable stock, or precious metals, something you think will go up in value considerably, much cooler to do then donating fiat that will go down in value.

Also by donating btc I am actually building the value of my remaining btc because more people have btc and start valuing it.

I think donations make a chance to become the killer app of bitcoin.

[/quote]

that is correct. but...  an example is the german B.U.N.D. (top ranking environmental group) which had announced it would take bitcoins for donations beginning of this year. in an interview they expressed their dissapointment since so far the btc donations are summing up to not even 1 btc.

+1

I like to add donations though.

I notice that I am much quicker donating to people thanks to btc. Donating with paypal is less fun and if I do it I pay less. Ie: I donate much more easily higher value with bitcoin.

When I donate in bitcoin I know people will remember how many btc I gave, and likely in a few years when btc is up, my donation to them will go up in value in their mind.

It's like donating a valuable stock, or precious metals, something you think will go up in value considerably, much cooler to do then donating fiat that will go down in value.

Also by donating btc I am actually building the value of my remaining btc because more people have btc and start valuing it.

I think donations make a chance to become the killer app of bitcoin.

Is Venmo usable overseas, or does it only use USD? If it is not global then it is in no way a threat.

EDIT: Oh I see now. It only works in the U.S.

That sure as hell isn't going to cease insane inflation levels

We've been over this before only with Ripple being a threat instead of this thing. I don't buy into anything that is still based on our current outdated fiat system, this only builds on what already exists and there's nothing revolutionary about it. It may become a fad, but ultimately it will go down with the fiat system. Good luck to those who think it's the next big thing, not for me.

It looks like Paypal, for mobile. Are payments reversible or not?

The issue with btc is that the price is volatile, thus the utility of btc must surpass the costs associated with hedging against volatility

There are a limited number of applications were the anonymity and cross border functionality make use of btc a net positive, buying coffee, buying gas, grocery shopping or paying your rent is not among them.

gambling, remittances, bypassing intl wire and exchange fees, investment in the thing, buying herb online, avoiding merchant tx fees and not waiting a couple weeks to get your money from visa/mc

As an inflationary hedge it has a limited audience. 

I think the masses will be the last into bitcoin, too late to get any benefit from being early adopters, thats just the way the cookie crumbles. Until then they will continue as they are, not really noticing that the value of their money keeps decreasing relentlessly.

[/quote]

And bitcoiners dont' have to care about "the masses".  Even if it remains a niche, it will continue to grow dramatically.  There is plenty of demand for a trustworthy currency.  Other than bitcoin and altcoins, there is no competition.
[/quote]


strongly disagree. if no mass adoption happens it will die a slow, painful death.


@adpinbr: i now how you are feeling. this "we may all be fooled" fear. we can only hope that the masses will see the difference between centralized/fiat-based and distributed/algorithm-based.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDDsELTDiHQ

The highest view count on YouTube for Venmo (link above) is 12,962 and was uploaded on April 22, 2010.

The high view count is probably why Braintree purchased it for...wait for it...$26.2M USD: http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/16/payments-start-up-braintree-buys-venmo-for-26-2-million/?_r=2

Luckily, Braintree is a major brand which can be seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixj5-tlTeSw

Pay no attention to the view count of 7,050 (highest video view count on YT) or the Jun 10, 2010 upload date.

Bitcoin has higher view counts with some Hitler parody videos, thus concluding that Venmo's user base is not that high, and that Braintree was high on crack when they bought it.

To drive my point home, consider the following: I just sold my barn wood business to an undisclosed buyer for $3.5M USD. Now that I'm a VC, I going to invest it all in Coinabul or Dank's Magical Mystery Tour.

Exactly!  Fuck... That... Shit.

No effect on BTC price.  Maybe help it a bit like Dwolla.  Do I *have* to link a FB to it?  If so, no thanks, not ever.

Use Venmo on the new iPhone equipped with the fingerprint reader and you're golden.


And Bitcoin isn't at $500 per because...

LOL

Some people believe USSA = the world

[/thread]

The digital aspect of venmo sounds like a nice little addition to what we currently have as online banking, but it's certainly nothing revolutionary or interesting at all (just from what I've heard)... it might have some effect in delaying the critical mass of bitcoin adaption, but ultimately I think society will gradually move away from the privately controlled banking system and get further into crypto as the technology around it continues to improve.

The $10m number came from their beta phase, apparently, which doesn't do me much good unless we consider Venmo to've opened in 2010.

In 2009, Dwolla did ~$200k its first month (they opened in December). http://www.businessinsider.com/this-28-year-old-is-making-sure-credit-cards-wont-exist-in-the-next-few-years-2011-11
In 2010,
In 2011, Dwolla was doing ~$30-50M per month on average (just the later months?). http://www.businessinsider.com/this-28-year-old-is-making-sure-credit-cards-wont-exist-in-the-next-few-years-2011-11
In 2012 & 2013,

I'm not sure how to compare them since Venmo had a 2-year beta phase and with the limited info.

http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2013/08/venmo_review_the_wallet_app_is_light_years_ahead_of_paypal.html

I got a Venmo "friend request" from a from a somewhat tech-savvy person a couple days ago.

Did not follow up, but given that I have yet to receive a Bitcoin payment request from anybody I know (or even Paypal, for that matter), based on this single data point, I'm tempted to take this company slightly more seriously as a money transmission competitor.

As many have pointed out, Bitcoin is much more than just cheap money transmission.  But the value proposition of its other properties is much more difficult to understand for the average person, at least until the next financial crisis.  So there is a time window during which a competitive transmission service could gain significant mindshare if it goes viral quickly enough.

How do I check the adoption rates?

taking plastic is a huge advantage for adoption rates cause its simple to set up, Facebook didn't have any clear cut advantage over friendster/myspace from a functional point of view. but it had a great UI and it was cool and it caught on. Same thing i happening now, you can chef the adoption rates, venmo is out for a shorter period and has more users than dwolla, and the trend will continue

Only thing they appear to have over Dwolla is that they take plastic (with roughly the same fee as Paypal), which makes it irrelevant since Paypal is generally used in conjunction with Dwolla, instead of Dwolla being the only choice. For mobile payments, at least in the US, this is taken care of with direct billing on cell charges (though most [all?] app stores have their own payment processor, too] - so I can't think of a market they're filling there. Unlike Bitcoin, Venmo has many direct competitors they don't offer something significant over. Dwolla's obscure -- why will Venmo be any different?

Well that eliminates what, 96% of the world from using it?

It looks no better than Paypal - just with a nicer, social interface.

The masses are happy holding depreciating IOU notes, do you see them fleeing to safe havens? Wealth will flow to BTC as the market comes to understand BTC is the neo safe haven amongst else.

I was just thinking about this today.  There will probably be some mobile payment providers that will be quite successful before Bitcoin takes off.  It will just pave the way for Bitcoin though so I would not be concerned.  It will still be hard to transfer large amounts of money securely and it has the same issue of being fiat and will lose value.

Eventually some stories about how people have made millions from bitcoin, or smart investors that realize the potential convince less smart people to invest in BTC will be what helps it to grow.  

The answer is a.  And no, it doesn't require the masses.  Just as precious metal investors are a niche.

The other answer is remittances and international settlements.  Venmo is US only.  What about the other 95.6% of the world population?

The underlying issue here for the vast majority of people is not fiat currency. If we want bitcoin to be adopted as a payment system, it needs to compete on that basis.

If we don't care about the masses then the value of bitcoin stems from one of 2 things IMHO.
a. Financial safe haven- this will require some sort of "mass" recognition, even if its just from a fraction of the financial industry
b. greater fool theory- there is nothing here, and you are just ridding the bubble up cause you are a relative early adopter

ehh, venmo aint nothing special. I tried using it for roomates to pay utils. They just gave me checks instead.

In other words it will never be worth anything because there is no smart money.

And bitcoiners dont' have to care about "the masses".  Even if it remains a niche, it will continue to grow dramatically.  There is plenty of demand for a trustworthy currency.  Other than bitcoin and altcoins, there is no competition.

The masses don't care about the "underlying issue". they care about Prada, george zimmerman and pictures of their brunch

I was working on a proprietary wallet with eli https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/safebit-bitcoin-wallet-bitcoin-evolved-update-29109
I feel we do need that killer app. and Venmo is not out of bitcoins grasp, but someone needs to step up while we still have the chance, once people get used to venmo they are exponentially less likely to figure out bitcoin, even when the barriers to entry are being reduced

Isn't it based on or in fiat? If so, it doesn't change the underlying issue.

I've been saying this for a while. Venmo is the most viable, but there are many other mobile payment providers coming onto the scene. This should have been expected, though.

Interface is much better than Paypal. It's quite intuitive and fits the "social networking" niche far better than bitcoin could ever dream. Regardless of anything else, laymen will understand and be willing to use Venmo much more easily than bitcoin.

Never heard of the service too but after watching video on their site you should probably just start with ABC of Bitcoin.

Never heard of it, but a paypal clone that broadcasts your transactions to all your friends doesn't seem like much of a threat/competitor.

I've never even heard of the service, but here I am on a BTC forum.

I think venmo is the biggest threat to bitcoin. If money over IP becomes prevalent without the need for bitcoin/cryptocurrencies, than the only benefit they really offer is for ideologist/criminals/economic reasons. But a lot of the added utility that we emphasize will disappear. And I ask myself, why don't we have that kiiler app yet?

Maybe we have all been fooled, maybe bitcoin will never go mainstream by the average joe that doesn't own gold and has his money run by a financial manager.
I was an Über-bull, but the realization that i see my friends using venmo, and not even close to understanding bitcoin, just made me extremely bearish