The Japanese girlfriend thing is only half in jest. The trust dynamic can be easier to assess if you're intimate. But yeah, not a great idea relationship-wise.
I'm in Japan and I don't even want to bother with arb. Too much work, too weird for taxes in both countries, and having fiat tied up in transfers while Bitcoin skyrockets would be too painful.
If only MtGox had added Litecoin, then arbitrage between BTC-e and MtGox would be a breeze, at least during those times that the BTC and LTC prices aren't very connected (and also assuming that whatever caused the BTC price differential didn't also cause a similar one in the LTC prices). Having at least one viable altcoin is critical for Bitcoin infrastructure.
Topic: Mtgox, Bitstamp "Let's calm down": 700, 550$. China "I don't give a fuck": 900$. (Read 6580 times)
November 20, 2013, 09:12:13 PM
November 20, 2013, 07:42:29 PM
interessting point ... does btcchina ask for proof-of-rersidence too?
November 20, 2013, 07:14:17 PM
Even if you have a Japanese bank account, Gox won;t let you withdraw Yen unless you provide them with proof of residence or citizenship in Japan. I actually have a Japanese bank account, from when I was a student there in 2006. Unfortunately I have forgotten/lost my net banking credentials, so may not even be able to use it, but even if I could, I don't think Gox will let me.
November 20, 2013, 01:24:21 PM
LOL at the Japanese girlfriend idea. 
Working on it?
Already tried it 5 years ago LOL
She gave me strange looks when I brought her to the bank.
But seriously, do you think it would work? Everything I've read says you would need government documents showing you live there.
And I don't trust the new girlfriend enough to use her bank account (sorry!).
November 20, 2013, 01:23:03 PM
LOL at the Japanese girlfriend idea.
Working on it?
Japanese girls are cute, but the teeth... or my good, the teeth. Makes the Brits look like dental care fanatics in comparison.
Not very relevant in a long distance business agreement however.
November 20, 2013, 01:21:48 PM
LOL at the Japanese girlfriend idea.
Working on it?
Japanese girls are cute, but the teeth... or my good, the teeth. Makes the Brits look like dental care fanatics in comparison.
November 20, 2013, 01:15:13 PM
LOL at the Japanese girlfriend idea.
Working on it?
November 20, 2013, 01:11:32 PM
LOL at the Japanese girlfriend idea.
But.... As I am typing this the spread between Bitstamp and MtGox is only ... $5 ?!?!
WTF! What's going on?
But.... As I am typing this the spread between Bitstamp and MtGox is only ... $5 ?!?!
WTF! What's going on?
If I had to guess: bitfinex funds arrived on stamp?
The spread has now increased to 30... will be monitoring this situation closely
November 20, 2013, 12:56:30 PM
LOL at the Japanese girlfriend idea.
But.... As I am typing this the spread between Bitstamp and MtGox is only ... $5 ?!?!
WTF! What's going on?
But.... As I am typing this the spread between Bitstamp and MtGox is only ... $5 ?!?!
WTF! What's going on?
If I had to guess: bitfinex funds arrived on stamp?
November 20, 2013, 12:49:55 PM
LOL at the Japanese girlfriend idea.
But.... As I am typing this the spread between Bitstamp and MtGox is only ... $5 ?!?!
WTF! What's going on?
But.... As I am typing this the spread between Bitstamp and MtGox is only ... $5 ?!?!
WTF! What's going on?
November 20, 2013, 12:38:25 PM
Dude.
Where to begin. There's an order to things, there's rules. One of the rules is that it's considered dishonorable do "personal" because of "business", and another is that doing "business" because of "personal" doesn't usually work. If both of them happen to involve the same person, that's happy, but seriously, don't ever put them together in a sentence with a "because" between them or you're headed for ruin most likely in both endeavors.
In fairness, find a Japanese arbitration partner on the net, and if you get along otherwise, have compatible lives and plans, and you're MOAAS (Members Of An Attractive Sex) to each other maybe you can explore romance. Otherwise, the two of you can be happy with a lucrative arbitration business and maybe when you're blowing your money in a few years you can go out and chase girls/boys together as chums.
First; it gets you to your arbitration-business goal faster. Second, it's more likely to work. Third, if you make the business contingent on romance your business will fall apart the minute you and your girlfriend have a romantic misunderstanding - and vice versa, which will make the misunderstanding worse, and probably unrecoverable. Third, it's more honest with your partner/s.
Where to begin. There's an order to things, there's rules. One of the rules is that it's considered dishonorable do "personal" because of "business", and another is that doing "business" because of "personal" doesn't usually work. If both of them happen to involve the same person, that's happy, but seriously, don't ever put them together in a sentence with a "because" between them or you're headed for ruin most likely in both endeavors.
In fairness, find a Japanese arbitration partner on the net, and if you get along otherwise, have compatible lives and plans, and you're MOAAS (Members Of An Attractive Sex) to each other maybe you can explore romance. Otherwise, the two of you can be happy with a lucrative arbitration business and maybe when you're blowing your money in a few years you can go out and chase girls/boys together as chums.
First; it gets you to your arbitration-business goal faster. Second, it's more likely to work. Third, if you make the business contingent on romance your business will fall apart the minute you and your girlfriend have a romantic misunderstanding - and vice versa, which will make the misunderstanding worse, and probably unrecoverable. Third, it's more honest with your partner/s.
November 20, 2013, 09:41:34 AM
In fairness: find a Japanese girlfriend on the net, fly there or get her to fly to you to consummate, have her be your arb partner.
November 20, 2013, 01:11:23 AM
Note you have to be a resident in Japan, with a visa.
And I've never heard of anyone having problems with MtGox withdrawals into yen. 1-2 business days baby!
You're right. I found this:
Good luck, I doubt you'll be able to open up a Japanese account AT ALL, let alone in the states. Most banks require that you be a resident for at least a year (I know Risona and UFJ are exceptions but I still think you need to be a resident). Japanese banks have no connection to American banks, even the Citibank is a different system.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091215185310AAyXAvY
With the cost of living so high in Japan, I don't know if it exactly would pay to move there, for the ability to withdraw from MtGox and make the margin on the Gox vs Bitstamp rate.
It could though, LOL. I bet some Japanese are making some real bank right now doing that.
November 19, 2013, 10:37:33 PM
Nice!
Somewhere I read that MtGox withdraws in JPY for domestic banks are working fine. Is that true?
Somewhere I read that MtGox withdraws in JPY for domestic banks are working fine. Is that true?
I found this about opening a Japanese bank account (below).
But to be honest Mt. Gox is such a crap box I would not rely on them to make timely payments, even with a Japanese account. Reading all the horror stories of waiting for withdraws is stressful enough!
Also, it seems more complicated.
You may find that foreign-capital banks (gaishi ginko), like Citibank and Shinsei Bank, are more willing to open an account for resident foreigners than normal Japanese banks. You can also get extra service like English helpline and statements.
You can open an account at a Japanese Bank and open an account at Lloyds bank by mailing the application form to them - no money deposits are required. Once in place, you can tranfer money from your japanese banks to USA through them just by using the ATM. They charge 2000yen per transaction; about 500 yen will be charged by japanese bank and $10 by intermediatary bank (happens to be Wells Fargo). So, You will spend about $4000 yen in transfers. Relatively more convenient if you dont live in Tokyo or Osaka.
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/japan-expat-forum-expats-living-japan/49187-opening-bank-account-japan.html
Note you have to be a resident in Japan, with a visa.
And I've never heard of anyone having problems with MtGox withdrawals into yen. 1-2 business days baby!
November 19, 2013, 10:34:45 PM
Nice!
Somewhere I read that MtGox withdraws in JPY for domestic banks are working fine. Is that true?
Somewhere I read that MtGox withdraws in JPY for domestic banks are working fine. Is that true?
Like clockwork.
November 19, 2013, 08:51:27 PM
Xero, try reading a few posts above.
yeah im investigating that stuff myself since a time tooi understood you can open a HSBC acc as US citizen, but im from Europe
however the other question is if you get a chinese bank account too and can do Yto$ or $toY only
November 19, 2013, 08:24:32 PM
Xero, try reading a few posts above.
Yall let me know how it goes with Mt Gox and the Polish or Japanese accounts.
I'm going to work on the Chinese bank thing
Yall let me know how it goes with Mt Gox and the Polish or Japanese accounts.
I'm going to work on the Chinese bank thing
November 19, 2013, 08:22:49 PM
Quote
Especially Polish. Poland is part of the EU, so any European citizen should be able to open a Polish bank account.
Exactly! Hope for the best 
November 19, 2013, 08:20:21 PM
what i heard is that you need to live in China or Japan for at least a specific time to open bank accounts 
November 19, 2013, 08:16:48 PM
Thank you! Really helpfull 
I fount this on Mtgox site (updated on 8.11.2013).
I will send them a ticket now, if the JPY or PLN withdraws are working without delays... if they do i will find the nearest japanese/polish bank
ps. I'm from Europe, I think the thing here shouldn't be so complicated.
I fount this on Mtgox site (updated on 8.11.2013).
Quote
Polish Domestic Transfer (PLN)
* Deposits
Bank details: Provided to verified Mt.Gox accounts on our website
Please do not send two transfers of equal amounts on the same day to us as it could result in only one deposit being credited.
* Withdrawals
Please make sure to enter YOUR address in the form, and not your bank's address. A fee of 0.5 PLN applies for each withdrawal request.
Japanese Domestic Transfer (JPY)
We've formed a new banking relationship formed with JapanNet Bank, and as a result Mt. Gox customers in Japan must make all domestic Japanese Yen (JPY) deposits to our JapanNet Bank account.
* Deposits
Additionally, all JPY deposits are credited to accounts within one hour when transferred from your bank between 9am and 3pm on banking days. Deposits made from JapanNet Bank accounts can be processed 24/7.
Processing Fee: Free, except for fees charged by your own bank
* Withdrawals
All JPY withdrawals placed before 4pm Tokyo time on banking days are now processed the following banking day, and will be sent from our JapanNet Bank account.
Processing Fee:
Withdrawals to JapanNet Bank accounts:
-52 JPY
Withdrawals to all other domestic accounts:
- 168 JPY for all amounts up to 30,000 JPY
- 262 JPY for all amounts from 30,000 JPY and above
* Deposits
Bank details: Provided to verified Mt.Gox accounts on our website
Please do not send two transfers of equal amounts on the same day to us as it could result in only one deposit being credited.
* Withdrawals
Please make sure to enter YOUR address in the form, and not your bank's address. A fee of 0.5 PLN applies for each withdrawal request.
Japanese Domestic Transfer (JPY)
We've formed a new banking relationship formed with JapanNet Bank, and as a result Mt. Gox customers in Japan must make all domestic Japanese Yen (JPY) deposits to our JapanNet Bank account.
* Deposits
Additionally, all JPY deposits are credited to accounts within one hour when transferred from your bank between 9am and 3pm on banking days. Deposits made from JapanNet Bank accounts can be processed 24/7.
Processing Fee: Free, except for fees charged by your own bank
* Withdrawals
All JPY withdrawals placed before 4pm Tokyo time on banking days are now processed the following banking day, and will be sent from our JapanNet Bank account.
Processing Fee:
Withdrawals to JapanNet Bank accounts:
-52 JPY
Withdrawals to all other domestic accounts:
- 168 JPY for all amounts up to 30,000 JPY
- 262 JPY for all amounts from 30,000 JPY and above
I will send them a ticket now, if the JPY or PLN withdraws are working without delays... if they do i will find the nearest japanese/polish bank
ps. I'm from Europe, I think the thing here shouldn't be so complicated.
Especially Polish. Poland is part of the EU, so any European citizen should be able to open a Polish bank account.
November 19, 2013, 08:05:24 PM
Thank you! Really helpfull
I found this on Mtgox site (updated on 8.11.2013).
I will send them a ticket now, if the JPY or PLN withdraws are working without delays... if they do i will find the nearest japanese/polish bank
ps. I'm from Europe, I think the thing here shouldn't be so complicated.
I found this on Mtgox site (updated on 8.11.2013).
Quote
Polish Domestic Transfer (PLN)
* Deposits
Bank details: Provided to verified Mt.Gox accounts on our website
Please do not send two transfers of equal amounts on the same day to us as it could result in only one deposit being credited.
* Withdrawals
Please make sure to enter YOUR address in the form, and not your bank's address. A fee of 0.5 PLN applies for each withdrawal request.
Japanese Domestic Transfer (JPY)
We've formed a new banking relationship formed with JapanNet Bank, and as a result Mt. Gox customers in Japan must make all domestic Japanese Yen (JPY) deposits to our JapanNet Bank account.
* Deposits
Additionally, all JPY deposits are credited to accounts within one hour when transferred from your bank between 9am and 3pm on banking days. Deposits made from JapanNet Bank accounts can be processed 24/7.
Processing Fee: Free, except for fees charged by your own bank
* Withdrawals
All JPY withdrawals placed before 4pm Tokyo time on banking days are now processed the following banking day, and will be sent from our JapanNet Bank account.
Processing Fee:
Withdrawals to JapanNet Bank accounts:
-52 JPY
Withdrawals to all other domestic accounts:
- 168 JPY for all amounts up to 30,000 JPY
- 262 JPY for all amounts from 30,000 JPY and above
* Deposits
Bank details: Provided to verified Mt.Gox accounts on our website
Please do not send two transfers of equal amounts on the same day to us as it could result in only one deposit being credited.
* Withdrawals
Please make sure to enter YOUR address in the form, and not your bank's address. A fee of 0.5 PLN applies for each withdrawal request.
Japanese Domestic Transfer (JPY)
We've formed a new banking relationship formed with JapanNet Bank, and as a result Mt. Gox customers in Japan must make all domestic Japanese Yen (JPY) deposits to our JapanNet Bank account.
* Deposits
Additionally, all JPY deposits are credited to accounts within one hour when transferred from your bank between 9am and 3pm on banking days. Deposits made from JapanNet Bank accounts can be processed 24/7.
Processing Fee: Free, except for fees charged by your own bank
* Withdrawals
All JPY withdrawals placed before 4pm Tokyo time on banking days are now processed the following banking day, and will be sent from our JapanNet Bank account.
Processing Fee:
Withdrawals to JapanNet Bank accounts:
-52 JPY
Withdrawals to all other domestic accounts:
- 168 JPY for all amounts up to 30,000 JPY
- 262 JPY for all amounts from 30,000 JPY and above
I will send them a ticket now, if the JPY or PLN withdraws are working without delays... if they do i will find the nearest japanese/polish bank
ps. I'm from Europe, I think the thing here shouldn't be so complicated.
November 19, 2013, 07:55:21 PM
Nice!
Somewhere I read that MtGox withdraws in JPY for domestic banks are working fine. Is that true?
Somewhere I read that MtGox withdraws in JPY for domestic banks are working fine. Is that true?
I found this about opening a Japanese bank account (below).
But to be honest Mt. Gox is such a crap box I would not rely on them to make timely payments, even with a Japanese account. Reading all the horror stories of waiting for withdraws is stressful enough!
Also, it seems more complicated.
You may find that foreign-capital banks (gaishi ginko), like Citibank and Shinsei Bank, are more willing to open an account for resident foreigners than normal Japanese banks. You can also get extra service like English helpline and statements.
You can open an account at a Japanese Bank and open an account at Lloyds bank by mailing the application form to them - no money deposits are required. Once in place, you can tranfer money from your japanese banks to USA through them just by using the ATM. They charge 2000yen per transaction; about 500 yen will be charged by japanese bank and $10 by intermediatary bank (happens to be Wells Fargo). So, You will spend about $4000 yen in transfers. Relatively more convenient if you dont live in Tokyo or Osaka.
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/japan-expat-forum-expats-living-japan/49187-opening-bank-account-japan.html
November 19, 2013, 07:45:57 PM
Nice!
Somewhere I read that MtGox withdraws in JPY for domestic banks are working fine. Is that true?
Somewhere I read that MtGox withdraws in JPY for domestic banks are working fine. Is that true?
November 19, 2013, 07:41:33 PM
Found the answer:
"Do You Need a Chinese Bank Account?"
Wall St Journal 1-14-2011
As The Wall Street Journal's Lingling Wei reported Wednesday, the Bank of China here in the U.S. has started allowing American customers to open an account and to invest up to $4,000 per day—and a total of $20,000 a year—in Chinese yuan, or renminbi. Until now, you had few options to hold money in yuan, which is a "closed" currency managed, and protected, by Beijing.
The bank has three U.S. branches—two in New York, and one in Los Angeles. You'll have to fill out paperwork to open an account and provide two forms of ID. And there's a minimum deposit of $500.
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748704307404576080222812076888
http://consumerist.com/2011/01/19/you-can-now-open-a-chinese-bank-account-and-invest-directly-in-yuan/
KA-CHING!
"Do You Need a Chinese Bank Account?"
Wall St Journal 1-14-2011
As The Wall Street Journal's Lingling Wei reported Wednesday, the Bank of China here in the U.S. has started allowing American customers to open an account and to invest up to $4,000 per day—and a total of $20,000 a year—in Chinese yuan, or renminbi. Until now, you had few options to hold money in yuan, which is a "closed" currency managed, and protected, by Beijing.
The bank has three U.S. branches—two in New York, and one in Los Angeles. You'll have to fill out paperwork to open an account and provide two forms of ID. And there's a minimum deposit of $500.
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748704307404576080222812076888
http://consumerist.com/2011/01/19/you-can-now-open-a-chinese-bank-account-and-invest-directly-in-yuan/
KA-CHING!
November 19, 2013, 07:35:48 PM
Someone needs to remind China they should be panic selling They are just letting their bids get filled, nobody scared over there
They are just letting their bids get filled, nobody scared over there November 19, 2013, 07:34:41 PM
banks are:
ICBC
Agricultural Bank of China
China Construction Bank
Bank of China
China Merchants Bank
I would have thought all of them have branches in HK.
Just thought of another idea. I know ICBC and Bank of China have branches in UK. Also very recently they started offering accounts in RMB. Maybe open one and then could btc china withdraw to that account?
Thanks for listing them.
I am going to make some calls tomorrow and see how easy it is for an American to open a bank account with any of the four.
I doubt they will let me open one via fax (they may though). Worst case scenario it's a plane trip to UK to open an account in person.
Chances are, if those two operate in the UK, they MUST follow US banking laws and they would be open to taking American clients.
November 19, 2013, 07:31:51 PM
Interesting. Are any of the four Chinese banks also in Hong Kong?
I can see an account being opened in Hong Kong easily if a branch exists there.
banks are:I can see an account being opened in Hong Kong easily if a branch exists there.
ICBC
Agricultural Bank of China
China Construction Bank
Bank of China
China Merchants Bank
I would have thought all of them have branches in HK.
Just thought of another idea. I know ICBC and Bank of China have branches in UK. Also very recently they started offering accounts in RMB. Maybe open one and then could btc china withdraw to that account?
November 19, 2013, 07:31:09 PM
Simple you get a visa to enter China on business, hop on a flight and you open an account in person. Of course that still doesn't allow you to convert your Yuan into USD or move it out of the country.
I would be on that plane tomorrow LOL, but - yeah, I was thinking more along the terms of wire transfer out of the Chinese bank account once I open it.
But I do not think it would be so easy to open a mainland Chinese bank account. Do they even follow US FACTA laws??
November 19, 2013, 07:23:59 PM
How the heck do I get a mainland Chinese bank account! (Honk Kong is doable, but not mainland for me ATM).
Come now, lets crack this nut somehow.
Come now, lets crack this nut somehow.
Simple you get a visa to enter China on business, hop on a flight and you open an account in person. Of course that still doesn't allow you to convert your Yuan into USD or move it out of the country.
November 19, 2013, 07:23:26 PM
Interesting. Are any of the four Chinese banks also in Hong Kong?
I can see an account being opened in Hong Kong easily if a branch exists there.
I can see an account being opened in Hong Kong easily if a branch exists there.
November 19, 2013, 07:20:28 PM
How the heck do I get a mainland Chinese bank account! (Honk Kong is doable, but not mainland for me ATM).
Come now, lets crack this nut somehow.
Its a little bit difficult I would imagine. lucky somebody in my family already has one so i am using that one. btcchina only give the choice of withdrawing funds into a choice of 4 mainland Chinese banks and a service called TenPay which don't know anything about. Come now, lets crack this nut somehow.
November 19, 2013, 07:18:10 PM
How the heck do I get a mainland Chinese bank account! (Honk Kong is doable, but not mainland for me ATM).
Come now, lets crack this nut somehow.
Come now, lets crack this nut somehow.
November 19, 2013, 07:09:54 PM
bitcoinBull, XRP have all the same properties as BTC (no counterparty risk, limited in amount, pseudonymous). If we are going to use Ripple, why not switch to XRP entirely? Don't forget that Bitcoins within the Ripple system are merely IOUs issued by exchanges, only XRP can be held without counterparty risk, so they are inherently inferior.
I don't understand that.
Betamax had such great color and sound too. I don't understand that.
November 19, 2013, 07:06:14 PM
cokey dokey, tomorrow I will attempt the bitstamp-btcchina arbitrage. I will buy a small amount of btc in bitstamp. send the btc over to btcchina to fund my account there. then sell the btc at $300 markup. withdraw the RMB to a Chinese bank account (ICBC). here the money stops for now as I figure out a way to bring it out of the country. i think the best way would be to do a bank transfer to their local branch here in the UK but i don't know if that is allowed and how much the personal quota is. wish me luck!!
November 19, 2013, 06:50:34 PM
If fiat was as easy to move as bitcoin, the exchanges would all be trading at the exact same price...
It's a sales pitch built into the speculation game.
It's a sales pitch built into the speculation game.
True, it only shows how Bitcoin is usefull, not only speculative investment
November 19, 2013, 06:38:01 PM
Just another theory of mine:
Chinese buying BTC to transfer money/wealth oversea. Guess where do they dump their coins?
Chinese buying BTC to transfer money/wealth oversea. Guess where do they dump their coins?
Well I'll be damned....
An actual 'theory' on this place that isn't totally cacked brained and actually makes some sense.
You had better watch, you will get the 'Face Palm', 'Double Face Palm', and tha 'not even worthy of a Face Palm' brigade on your back if you keep on like this.
And of course, the arbitrage can't work in the opposite direction due to the Chinese Renmimbi largely being a locked down currency.
quite valid too. Government requires Chinese citizens to pay X amount if leaving the country for good. I think its something like 300K Yuan. This could be a way to transfer the rest of it without giving it to their government (although still taking quite a hit due to fees)
Idea for an interesting chart: Bitcoin volume vs Chinese immigration
November 19, 2013, 05:20:47 PM
I live on an island of 12000 people and I have only met 2 people who have or have had bitcoins
What island? Can I visit you?? For 2 yrs?
November 19, 2013, 05:20:10 PM
China is a closed economy - there are few arbitrage opportunities, and the bitcoins available in China are limited to the people in China who managed to get hold of them since 2009, and the few foreigners with bitcoins living in China gleefully selling them.
Edit - there are not enough bitcoins in China
Edit - there are not enough bitcoins in China
You're joking, right? You must be joking.
> Bitcoins are not "in a country"
> China has dominance over mining operations due to near exclusive chip monopoly
I see his point. You are right bitcoins aren't in a country, they are in wallets.
Those wallets belong to people, those people are in countries. Those people (for the time being) don't have much choice in what exchange they use.
Hence the localised price variance based on the different supply/demand pressures on each exchange.
It might not account for everything, but I don't think you can dismiss it out of hand.
November 19, 2013, 05:10:35 PM
I live on an island of 12000 people and I have only met 2 people who have or have had bitcoins
November 19, 2013, 04:59:13 PM
Just another theory of mine:
Chinese buying BTC to transfer money/wealth oversea. Guess where do they dump their coins?
Chinese buying BTC to transfer money/wealth oversea. Guess where do they dump their coins?
Well I'll be damned....
An actual 'theory' on this place that isn't totally cacked brained and actually makes some sense.
You had better watch, you will get the 'Face Palm', 'Double Face Palm', and tha 'not even worthy of a Face Palm' brigade on your back if you keep on like this.
And of course, the arbitrage can't work in the opposite direction due to the Chinese Renmimbi largely being a locked down currency.
November 19, 2013, 03:35:12 PM
China is a big place. By that I mean that its a big market to over the next weeks or months to accumulate bitcoin, driving the price higher.
I think Europe and the US has exhausted its "newbie buy-in", and China may not have exhausted its.
There will still be some Americans and Europeans that learn about bitcoin and buy some, but the huge rush has hit already (for now).
I think Europe and the US has exhausted its "newbie buy-in", and China may not have exhausted its.
There will still be some Americans and Europeans that learn about bitcoin and buy some, but the huge rush has hit already (for now).
I think you're way off on this, honestly. I work in an office of 10 software-development-types. Of those, 3 of us have either bought or mined crypto-currency since March. Of those 3, I am the only one who is still holding Bitcoin.
The other 7? They know about it because I have told them and updated them along the way. These are the types of people that have at least the capability to buy Bitcoin right now, in my opinion. It's still not ready for mainstream, but it's getting closer by the day, and there are still tons of people who haven't heard about it yet, and a large percentage even of those that have are too fearful to buy in.
This is all anecdotal evidence, I know, but I think it is a valid cross-section of a group of people that I would expect to be more on-board already.
China's push and yesterday's U.S. meetings are a pretty strong indicator that Bitcoin is here to stay. As that general awareness grows and the fear diminishes, I expect to see much more "newbie buy-in"
Even from yesterday alone, and the #1 Google Trends spot (which is a lagging indicator of price) - the new people who want to put fiat in, either don't know how yet, or can't physically do it, due to the scarcity
I'll confirm this. Almost no-one holds Bitcoin yet.
November 19, 2013, 03:33:37 PM
Because when an exchange becomes a ripple gateway, you can withdraw fiat IOUs and trade them for another exchange's fiat IOUs. Which you can then redeem (deposit) at the other exchange. Presto, fiat moved without a bank transfer.
You're going to find that GoxUSD IOUs are worth less than StampUSD IOUs, which won't solve the problem then.
GoxUSD might be worth less, but we would find it to be a lot closer to face-value than the current discount rate (there would be much more arbitrage of goxUSD if it could be withdrawn to ripple).
Also, by enabling the trading of fiat IOUs with face-value, the market could directly discount the fiat IOUs (by the spread in bitstampUSD->XRP->mtgoxUSD). Then BTC prices should be more-or-less the same, which would be much better than a massive spread priced into BTC at every separate exchange.
November 19, 2013, 03:21:55 PM
China is a big place. By that I mean that its a big market to over the next weeks or months to accumulate bitcoin, driving the price higher.
I think Europe and the US has exhausted its "newbie buy-in", and China may not have exhausted its.
There will still be some Americans and Europeans that learn about bitcoin and buy some, but the huge rush has hit already (for now).
I think Europe and the US has exhausted its "newbie buy-in", and China may not have exhausted its.
There will still be some Americans and Europeans that learn about bitcoin and buy some, but the huge rush has hit already (for now).
I think you're way off on this, honestly. I work in an office of 10 software-development-types. Of those, 3 of us have either bought or mined crypto-currency since March. Of those 3, I am the only one who is still holding Bitcoin.
The other 7? They know about it because I have told them and updated them along the way. These are the types of people that have at least the capability to buy Bitcoin right now, in my opinion. It's still not ready for mainstream, but it's getting closer by the day, and there are still tons of people who haven't heard about it yet, and a large percentage even of those that have are too fearful to buy in.
This is all anecdotal evidence, I know, but I think it is a valid cross-section of a group of people that I would expect to be more on-board already.
China's push and yesterday's U.S. meetings are a pretty strong indicator that Bitcoin is here to stay. As that general awareness grows and the fear diminishes, I expect to see much more "newbie buy-in"
Even from yesterday alone, and the #1 Google Trends spot (which is a lagging indicator of price) - the new people who want to put fiat in, either don't know how yet, or can't physically do it, due to the scarcity
November 19, 2013, 03:15:52 PM
bitcoinBull, XRP have all the same properties as BTC (no counterparty risk, limited in amount, pseudonymous). If we are going to use Ripple, why not switch to XRP entirely? Don't forget that Bitcoins within the Ripple system are merely IOUs issued by exchanges, only XRP can be held without counterparty risk, so they are inherently inferior.
I don't understand that.
I don't understand that.
Because, with BTC there's no uncertainty in the distribution scheme. By comparison, the XRP distribution scheme is highly fickle: depends on Ripple Labs market operations (which may turn out to be poorly managed), Ripple Labs private keys could be compromised (would be a fiasco much worse than the 2011 mtgox hack), the giveaways could be poorly managed and plagued by fraud, etc.
I don't see any threat of the market switching over entirely (especially not if the exchange of BTC is the primary use of ripple gateways).
November 19, 2013, 02:42:39 PM
I heard chinese bitcoins are lower quality than original japanese ones
Then why are they more expensive?
November 19, 2013, 02:34:41 PM
I heard chinese bitcoins are lower quality than original japanese ones
Made in Taiwan?
November 19, 2013, 02:18:21 PM
I heard chinese bitcoins are lower quality than original japanese ones
November 19, 2013, 02:15:33 PM
China is a closed economy - there are few arbitrage opportunities, and the bitcoins available in China are limited to the people in China who managed to get hold of them since 2009, and the few foreigners with bitcoins living in China gleefully selling them.
Edit - there are not enough bitcoins in China
Edit - there are not enough bitcoins in China
You're joking, right? You must be joking.
> Bitcoins are not "in a country"
> China has dominance over mining operations due to near exclusive chip monopoly
November 19, 2013, 02:13:32 PM
November 19, 2013, 02:11:30 PM
China is a big place. By that I mean that its a big market to over the next weeks or months to accumulate bitcoin, driving the price higher.
I think Europe and the US has exhausted its "newbie buy-in", and China may not have exhausted its.
There will still be some Americans and Europeans that learn about bitcoin and buy some, but the huge rush has hit already (for now).
I think Europe and the US has exhausted its "newbie buy-in", and China may not have exhausted its.
There will still be some Americans and Europeans that learn about bitcoin and buy some, but the huge rush has hit already (for now).
ORLY?
You think the majority of americans and europeans have now heard about bitcoin, researched it and made a decision whether to invest or not?
Ha.
Not. Even. Close.
That doesn't mean that we are going up right away. But tons of new money is coming into the markets now and for the forseeable future.
November 19, 2013, 02:05:00 PM
I dont give a fuck about china.
November 19, 2013, 02:01:25 PM
China is a big place. By that I mean that its a big market to over the next weeks or months to accumulate bitcoin, driving the price higher.
I think Europe and the US has exhausted its "newbie buy-in", and China may not have exhausted its.
There will still be some Americans and Europeans that learn about bitcoin and buy some, but the huge rush has hit already (for now).
I think Europe and the US has exhausted its "newbie buy-in", and China may not have exhausted its.
There will still be some Americans and Europeans that learn about bitcoin and buy some, but the huge rush has hit already (for now).
i think there's a lot more people in america and eu, that don't know for btc and there's also india.
November 19, 2013, 01:55:58 PM
After all, arbitrage between exchanges seems to be slow and not very effective in the past.
Yes, that's because most exchanges are still relying 100% on bank transfers for moving fiat. The spreads will come down as more exchanges become ripple gateways (bitstamp was the first, kraken is next in line).
And that solves the problem of bank transfers, how?
Because when an exchange becomes a ripple gateway, you can withdraw fiat IOUs and trade them for another exchange's fiat IOUs. Which you can then redeem (deposit) at the other exchange. Presto, fiat moved without a bank transfer.
You're going to find that GoxUSD IOUs are worth less than StampUSD IOUs, which won't solve the problem then.
November 19, 2013, 01:54:33 PM
China is a closed economy - there are few arbitrage opportunities, and the bitcoins available in China are limited to the people in China who managed to get hold of them since 2009, and the few foreigners with bitcoins living in China gleefully selling them.
Edit - there are not enough bitcoins in China
Edit - there are not enough bitcoins in China
November 19, 2013, 01:54:28 PM
China is a big place. By that I mean that its a big market to over the next weeks or months to accumulate bitcoin, driving the price higher.
I think Europe and the US has exhausted its "newbie buy-in", and China may not have exhausted its.
There will still be some Americans and Europeans that learn about bitcoin and buy some, but the huge rush has hit already (for now).
I think Europe and the US has exhausted its "newbie buy-in", and China may not have exhausted its.
There will still be some Americans and Europeans that learn about bitcoin and buy some, but the huge rush has hit already (for now).
November 19, 2013, 01:53:49 PM
bitcoinBull, XRP have all the same properties as BTC (no counterparty risk, limited in amount, pseudonymous). If we are going to use Ripple, why not switch to XRP entirely? Don't forget that Bitcoins within the Ripple system are merely IOUs issued by exchanges, only XRP can be held without counterparty risk, so they are inherently inferior.
I don't understand that.
I don't understand that.
November 19, 2013, 01:47:20 PM
After all, arbitrage between exchanges seems to be slow and not very effective in the past.
Yes, that's because most exchanges are still relying 100% on bank transfers for moving fiat. The spreads will come down as more exchanges become ripple gateways (bitstamp was the first, kraken is next in line).
And that solves the problem of bank transfers, how?
Because when an exchange becomes a ripple gateway, you can withdraw fiat IOUs and trade them for another exchange's fiat IOUs. Which you can then redeem (deposit) at the other exchange. Presto, fiat moved without a bank transfer.
November 19, 2013, 01:36:35 PM
Just another theory of mine:
Chinese buying BTC to transfer money/wealth oversea. Guess where do they dump their coins?
Chinese buying BTC to transfer money/wealth oversea. Guess where do they dump their coins?
See, you're guilty of using sound logic on a speculation forum. Shame on you.
Hey that would be so cool!
And the real value would be somewhere in between
November 19, 2013, 01:23:13 PM
The current situation drastically favors anyone who has the means already in place to exchange EUR/CY.
Good grief, if I had an effective wire transfer/conversion channel right now (which a lot of bankers do) I would be making money hand over fist.
Good grief, if I had an effective wire transfer/conversion channel right now (which a lot of bankers do) I would be making money hand over fist.
November 19, 2013, 01:20:49 PM
So you know how we have a forum for talking about bitcoin...
Does China have a forum just like us where they discuss bitcoin? They most likely do but, what's the site..?
Does China have a forum just like us where they discuss bitcoin? They most likely do but, what's the site..?
November 19, 2013, 01:17:26 PM
After all, arbitrage between exchanges seems to be slow and not very effective in the past.
Yes, that's because most exchanges are still relying 100% on bank transfers for moving fiat. The spreads will come down as more exchanges become ripple gateways (bitstamp was the first, kraken is next in line).
And that solves the problem of bank transfers, how?
November 19, 2013, 12:48:49 PM
As far as I know, it's not hard to wire money our of China. I receive wires from China occasionally - once CampBX gets ACH online I may dabble in some arbitrage. I bet alot of other people will too, and the price will equalize.
November 19, 2013, 12:42:48 PM
After all, arbitrage between exchanges seems to be slow and not very effective in the past.
Yes, that's because most exchanges are still relying 100% on bank transfers for moving fiat. The spreads will come down as more exchanges become ripple gateways (bitstamp was the first, kraken is next in line).
November 19, 2013, 12:24:01 PM
The disconnect is staggering, no? I mean, I got used to mtgox prices being 10% higher than bitstamp, but right now it's more than 20%, and China's price is just plain unreal considering how much lower Bitstamp is.
What do you expect to happen? China pulling the rest up again, or the Bitstamp pulling everyone down? Or will it stay the way it is? After all, arbitrage between exchanges seems to be slow and not very effective in the past.
What do you expect to happen? China pulling the rest up again, or the Bitstamp pulling everyone down? Or will it stay the way it is? After all, arbitrage between exchanges seems to be slow and not very effective in the past.
Just another theory of mine:
Chinese buying BTC to transfer money/wealth oversea. Guess where do they dump their coins?
Ummm... it seems like there are much cheaper options for getting their money overseas. It seems unlikely to me that they take a huge haircut (>$1000 -> <$750).
I think the more realistic scenario is that foreigners (non-chinese) will transfer their BTCs over to BTC China seeing they can get over $300 more per Bitcoin at the moment than Mt. Gox. This will level out the market in between MtGox and BTC China. The rest of the world will adjust the Chinese market price. I think a lot of Chinese buyers on BTC China are about to get burned.
Those cheapers options are not actually cheap if you consider the risk of having caught. I've done a large transfer of USD funds from China to US. I had to use "middle man" service in HK. And its VERY risky.
Other than having connection with Chinese Officials you cant do any transfer in large amount for personal banking.
November 19, 2013, 12:21:18 PM
The disconnect is staggering, no? I mean, I got used to mtgox prices being 10% higher than bitstamp, but right now it's more than 20%, and China's price is just plain unreal considering how much lower Bitstamp is.
What do you expect to happen? China pulling the rest up again, or the Bitstamp pulling everyone down? Or will it stay the way it is? After all, arbitrage between exchanges seems to be slow and not very effective in the past.
What do you expect to happen? China pulling the rest up again, or the Bitstamp pulling everyone down? Or will it stay the way it is? After all, arbitrage between exchanges seems to be slow and not very effective in the past.
Just another theory of mine:
Chinese buying BTC to transfer money/wealth oversea. Guess where do they dump their coins?
Ummm... it seems like there are much cheaper options for getting their money overseas. It seems unlikely to me that they take a huge haircut (>$1000 -> <$750).
I think the more realistic scenario is that foreigners (non-chinese) will transfer their BTCs over to BTC China seeing they can get over $300 more per Bitcoin at the moment than Mt. Gox. This will level out the market in between MtGox and BTC China. The rest of the world will adjust the Chinese market price. I think a lot of Chinese buyers on BTC China are about to get burned.
November 19, 2013, 12:20:48 PM
Similar reasons.
Hard to get USD out of MtGox.
Hard to get CNY out of China.
With high enough arbitrage opportunities, I bet sooner or later someone will figure out how to take advantage and prices will be closer.
Hard to get USD out of MtGox.
Hard to get CNY out of China.
With high enough arbitrage opportunities, I bet sooner or later someone will figure out how to take advantage and prices will be closer.
I can tell you that someone right now.... having known China country.....
That someone is simply Chinese officials, possibly working for their central banks.
The Chinese ppl know their officials can transfer millions USD out of the country. BTC will even make it easier and more discrete.
November 19, 2013, 12:19:41 PM
Price was rising too fast to make arbitrage profitable except in the more extreme cases. The lost time exposed to Bitcoin just hurt too much. If the price stops rising we'll see more arbitrage I think.
November 19, 2013, 12:19:14 PM
China really doesn't give a fuck, and will scoop cheap coins on Stamp and lift us up.
November 19, 2013, 12:18:48 PM
Aahh, the efficiency of a "billion dollar market".
Wait, is it 9 billion or 6 billion?
Wait, is it 9 billion or 6 billion?
That one cuts both ways, no?
"Aah, the inefficiency of the legacy banking system, and political limitations of transfer of wealth that allow such a disconnect to persist."
November 19, 2013, 12:17:34 PM
Similar reasons.
Hard to get USD out of MtGox.
Hard to get CNY out of China.
With high enough arbitrage opportunities, I bet sooner or later someone will figure out how to take advantage and prices will be closer.
Hard to get USD out of MtGox.
Hard to get CNY out of China.
With high enough arbitrage opportunities, I bet sooner or later someone will figure out how to take advantage and prices will be closer.
November 19, 2013, 12:17:18 PM
Just another theory of mine:
Chinese buying BTC to transfer money/wealth oversea. Guess where do they dump their coins?
Chinese buying BTC to transfer money/wealth oversea. Guess where do they dump their coins?
See, you're guilty of using sound logic on a speculation forum. Shame on you.
November 19, 2013, 12:16:17 PM
2011 bubble meets 2013 bubble. Clash of the bubbles. China want to have its 2011 insanity and Gox and Stamp were too recently burned and are exercising moderation. What will be the result? It may just be an average of the two, or it may be radically unpredictable.
November 19, 2013, 12:15:20 PM
The disconnect is staggering, no? I mean, I got used to mtgox prices being 10% higher than bitstamp, but right now it's more than 20%, and China's price is just plain unreal considering how much lower Bitstamp is.
What do you expect to happen? China pulling the rest up again, or the Bitstamp pulling everyone down? Or will it stay the way it is? After all, arbitrage between exchanges seems to be slow and not very effective in the past.
What do you expect to happen? China pulling the rest up again, or the Bitstamp pulling everyone down? Or will it stay the way it is? After all, arbitrage between exchanges seems to be slow and not very effective in the past.
Just another theory of mine:
Chinese buying BTC to transfer money/wealth oversea. Guess where do they dump their coins?
November 19, 2013, 12:14:48 PM
Aahh, the efficiency of a "billion dollar market".
Wait, is it 9 billion or 6 billion?
Wait, is it 9 billion or 6 billion?
November 19, 2013, 12:12:18 PM
The disconnect is staggering, no? I mean, I got used to mtgox prices being 10% higher than bitstamp, but right now it's more than 20%, and China's price is just plain unreal considering how much lower Bitstamp is.
What do you expect to happen? China pulling the rest up again, or the Bitstamp pulling everyone down? Or will it stay the way it is? After all, arbitrage between exchanges seems to be slow and not very effective in the past.
What do you expect to happen? China pulling the rest up again, or the Bitstamp pulling everyone down? Or will it stay the way it is? After all, arbitrage between exchanges seems to be slow and not very effective in the past.
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