Topic: MtGox fee to high? (0.65%) (Read 8047 times)

MtGox has done a stand up job considering. They have the ability to manipulate prices, charge higher fees, and crash the market if they wanted to. They haven't done any such thing (that we're aware of). 0.65% is far below most broker fees and exchange fees that you will be charged for other currencies as an average consumer. For the risk they incur, I'd say 0.65% is too low. They're putting their lives at risk because a government may potentially imprison them unjustly out of fear of what BTC could mean for the balance of economic and political power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_monopoly

Natural monopolies aren't necessarily bad. MtGox isn't really one in my eyes, either, just first to the game at the top. There are competitors to MtGox at this point. Keep in mind that MtGox is only roughly around 14% of the total BTC transactions in the market. I would say, though, that they provide the barometer for BTC->USD above all other exchanges; their BTC->USD price is stared at by all.

http://coinbits.com/mtgox-is-14-of-the-current-transaction-volume/

The barriers for another exchange to enter the market aren't terribly high. I've worked at a currency exchange before in the US. There's annoying paperwork, the occasional audit, and general fear that the government is going to find something wrong, but overall it's not bad. For what MtGox is doing to be legal in the US would require an MSB registration and a broker's license. MSB registration is fairly easy to obtain. A broker's license can be obtained by a willing individual, or a broker can be brought on for a cut.

People are fearing MtGox's demise, but a US based competitor that's legal can appear as a competitor very easily in my eyes. Tradehill already is bounds easier than MtGox. I'm not sure if they're legal by being registered and brokered, but they are accepting domestic US wire transfers, which tells me they're operating in the open, so I hope for their sake they're legal. Wire transfers are much easier than the Dwolla->MtGox fiasco that happens, and many magnitudes easier than LibertyReserve. A legitimate exchange in the US could also potentially accept ACH transfers, making it even easier. If you're lucky, you could negotiate a PayPal agreement. Pipe dreams perhaps on that one.

The only major worry I have is the government seeing BTC as a threat and outlawing currency trading for it as a whole. It's so radically different than any other currency out there that it's likely to scare many simple minded politicians trying to retain power and wealth. But I guarantee you many will secretly have BTC for their own wealth if it maintains

Spamming your referral link in all related threads now eh?

Fine, I will too. 

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They claim that their fees can be as low as 0.25% in their FAQ

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Yep, mtgox is really too high. I think BCM is a better choice.

Please don't nest so many quote tags.

Based on my own opinion solely.

Based on what? MtGox alread ywent down to DDoS sometime last month for extended period of time. There was no crash (admittedly there was a price bump when it came back up).

Sadly the best post in this thread was about the difficulty in setting up an exchange, not due to technical reasons (this is easy as pie) but due to the legality of such an exchange. A huge portion of bitcoin users exist in a country where legally they would be at huge risk if they set up an exchange.

So you know better than MtGox how to run an exchange? Or are you just saying life would be "fairer" if the exchange had less fees? 'cos guess what: Life isn't fair!

Right now MtGox downtime, even briefly, could cause havoc (wild fluctuations or a crash) to the exchange rate. We need it to be as reliable as possible, and if that takes a 0.65% fee, so be it.

Also free to start your own competing exchange and set the fees you think are right!

There are already competing exchanges up. Look at the Bitcoin Watch Markets page: http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/

Mt. Gox is at the top, but all the other listings are other markets, and there's a reasonable number for BTC/USD. Bitcoin Market seems to have a reasonable volume going at the moment, too.

The thing about Bitcoin is, if you think the people running Mt. Gox are too rich, and you'd be down with, say, government-mandated redistribution of wealth to reduce income inequality, then tough luck. You're the one who wanted the cryptographically secure cyber-currency, and you have to deal with the consequences.

MtGox is good for what it is, but it's unhealthy to have one dominant player. The Statists can temporarily disrupt the BTC economy if it got shut down. I really don't like paying 0.65%, but I can't build a competing exchange without diverting resources from more profitable ventures. When the incentives change, so will my behavior. Right now, nothing bitcoin-related is more profitable than buying and holding bitcoins.

the price is what the market will bear. 0.65% is not too high to buy a currency appreciating at a 200,000% annual rate.

There's a pretty big incentive to make a competitor to Mt. Gox.  The trouble is getting one set up in a country that won't shut you down.  And then you get one running and start taking business from Mt. Gox, they lower their prices and run you out of business.  Good for the consumer, but it's enough to prevent someone from entering the market.  The other thing is, if you just start out, and you have lower fees, you will barely be able to make any money until you get significant volume.

I definitely would welcome a competitor to Mt. Gox.  One idea to get bootstapped would be to have a mix of Mt. Gox and your own market.  You keep a reserve of currency and Bitcoins at Mt. Gox.  If someone sets an order on your exchange, they get the option of filling it only at your site, or at both yours and Mt. Gox.  That way if the coins become available at Mt. Gox, they can get them, but they pay the higher fee.  If they become available at your site, you pay a lower fee.  The owner of the new site would just need to move money and Bitcoins around to Mt. Gox to be able to purchase at any point in time.

Just get a bank account with an API, start an exchange with lower fees and you'll surely attract a lot of users. Automated transfers are the key feature.

Actually I think it's twice that (1252BTC) because afaik 0.65% is taken from both sides (and for some kind of withdrawals possibly some % too). But I don't have any problem with that because:

• you can easily code another market, convince people to use it and profit
• you need to be aware however that one day, some goverment may ask you if you have and paid for doing
• not only gov, but any kind hacker can win quite a bit of a bounty if he gets on that server full of private keys, and that's a lot of risk
• even though MagicalTux got Mt.Gox when it was already functional he still is an early adopter, I would like to own it now, but I would never thought of getting all these problems for myself, so it was like bitcoin - high risk and much to win
• and he was in right place and right time with well earned knowledge and experience that were needed here

One thing I have mixed feelings about are dark pools. Knowing them gives one opportunity to earn a lot on trading bitcoins, especially that mtgox pretty much dictates current price.

i would like too, but i don't have the time.
I am still in school.

i can't see me trying to force MtGox to set a lower fee, im only suggesting that they should set a lower fee.

and im also suspecting that the last qoute you has takeing from me, you must have misread.

If you all don't want to see an MtGox, put your bitcoins where your mouth is!  Or, at least give me opinions on whether you'd be interested in collaborating to start up a competitor.
http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=11385

Some of your quotes in this topic:

it might not be so high that it is a problem for you.
but i think MtGox should not take so much for it.

i dont like that! i think the fee should be around 0.05% its more fair. (it gives them a ~48.25btc/2day)

good point. but still 626btc/2day is way to much.

i think they should have many coins, but not as much as they have now.

oh. yes but then there is file recovery... its easier just to burn the whole computer.

Cheaper way exist, put your wallet on a cheap 64mb usb stick and burn it.

it should be eazy:
get some gasoline.
put it on your pc.
take a ligther.
watch the stuff burn.

you are wrong.

i have never said people MUST do something, and i never will. it their coins its them who decides what to do with them.
i DON'T want their coins.
i have never mined, and never will(except maybe try FPGA mining sometime, and then use is to do funny stuff on after)

A few is also handy to discourage speed trades, which would make the whole BTC/USD course more volatile.

Yeah, burning Bitcoins is easy and ecological (no CO2 emissions at all). Simply delete your wallet.dat.

Dude, you know what is the biggest problem? People like you who think they know how other people SHOULD (or later MUST) act.

If you think MtGox takes too much, use other exchange. Or, better, start your own new exchange taking just 0.05% as you proposed. You will be happy, maybe we, too. Better not ask how much robbery fee I had to shell out to my bank to accept EURO SEPA payment from MtGox and convert it to my local currency.

If you think some have too much Bitcoins, you should CPU-mined them last year. When the price of electricity was larger than what was their price.

Check Google Finance. You will see buying Apple stock in 2003 also could make a lot of people insanely rich nowadays. Should they now give a part to you?

Their money, they can do what they like with it. Burn it for all I care (can you burn bitcoins?).

I don't think they are buying. They are speculating.
im not socialist, but i think the people with the money, should also take the responsibility.
just like with the root account: "with great power, comes great responsibility"

They won't after you offer them enough to sell.  Problem solved!

i already am. its not because of greed.
its because i don't think its good for the economy that 10 people is sitting on 90% of the money(over estimate).
i think they should have many coins, but not as much as they have now.

mtgox owner even thinks it is too high

from the #bitcoin-otc

> (05:24:10 PM) MagicalTux: Lor, one of the main reason why I haven't lowered fees it to help competition to materialize

who are you to say what's too much? 

Next you'll be one of those guys pissed off about the early adopters sitting on tens of thousands of coins for having the foresight to participate in this program.

The reality is, there is not a single direct competitor to MtGox, at least for USD. The other markets only fill specific niches. I'd love to see someone make a DIRECT competitor to MtGox.

good point. but still 626btc/2day is way to much.

so, if you all think, the fee is 100% earnings, you must also think, MtGox operates for free,
the owner works for free, support is free, servers are free, DDoS protection is free, that all doesnt cost a dime, huh?

like others said, if you don't like it, don't use it,
there's other exchanges with lower, or no fees at all, use those,
or create a new exchange with lower/no fees, try to compete.

For what MtGox has done for bitcoin, they are underpaid.

currency exchange != airport

No, it has not.  The fees didn't exist that entire time.  The fees were instituted because the founder of Mtgox got burned by a scammer using a stolen paypal account.  The fees were started just to recover that loss, which I'm sure has long since been repaid; but the current owner isn't that founder at all.  If another market starts up with lower fees, some people will use it.  This will force Mtgox to respond if the new market is comparable.  There are other markets, I just don't use them because I don't like them.

Yeah I've calculated that mygox has made some 600,000 usd over the last year from fees

Start another exchange with lower fees then.  The fees at Mtgox are there for a reason.  It didn't start with fees.

"earning" would be the operative word.

what's the fee for exchanging currency at the average airport?

+1

OR the market is stupid and didn't know and therefor didn't reacte.
that why i wrote this post to make people know how much MtGox is earning.

I'm beginning to hear this more and more, but if people are so unhappy with it, they should move to other exchanges.  Start posting up more bids/asks on other exchanges and TRY to be more active in those other exchanges by constantly updating your bid/ask prices to reflect current going market rates and that will encourage other people to join other exchanges as well.

MtGox has a monopoly on the exchange market.  Let's change that.  Not because I don't like MtGox, but because competition is a very healthy thing for a market/industry/economy.

The fee CANNOT be too high, because if it was, the market would react.

my basic rule is that if i think a fee for anything is too high, i don't participate.

and i never get emotional about it.  life's too short to get angry at anything that isn't trying to kill you - which is, itself, a poor idea...

i know but MtGox is where things happen.

you are free to use other exchanges.
example : https://bitcoin-central.net/

just asking if you think if the fee on MtGox is too high.
i think its very high, and also thinks that MtGox is earning alot of eazy btc on it.
it might not be so high that it is a problem for you.
but i think MtGox should not take so much for it.

every time ther is traded 100 btc they earn 0.65 btc.
and there has been trading for around 96461 the last 2 days. it gives them 626 btc in fees in the last 2 days.

i dont like that! i think the fee should be around 0.05% its more fair. (it gives them a ~48.25btc/2day)

i know that its their choose, free market and all that stuff.
 
what do you think?