Author

Topic: MTGOX Public Offering? (Read 1738 times)

legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 1010
March 04, 2013, 09:55:59 PM
#10
Thank you Stephen that's very interesting, and troubling.

Where has all this additional regulation come from

Mostly from the Great Depression:
 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securities_Act_of_1933

as I gather from what is being said here it seems to be a recent thing over the last few years.

Less than a year and a half ago there was great hope because the House of Representatives had passed the Entrepreneur Access to Capital Act.  Then it went to the Senate where much of the good and useful changes were stripped.  The end result was passed as part of the JOBS act and signed into law in April 2012.  Then it went to the SEC for rulemaking.  It's like Lucy pulling the football yet once again just as Charlie Brown goes to kick.

Here's some more discussion of it:
 - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/us-crowdfunding-bill-73858

Is it direct from government or coming via some lobbyists group?

Yes.  [i.e., the lobbyists that control our government.]
hero member
Activity: 906
Merit: 1034
BTC: the beginning of stake-based public resources
March 04, 2013, 08:13:15 PM
#9
Thank you Stephen that's very interesting, and troubling.

Where has all this additional regulation come from as I gather from what is being said here it seems to be a recent thing over the last few years. Is it direct from government or coming via some lobbyists group?
full member
Activity: 121
Merit: 103
March 02, 2013, 05:46:26 PM
#8
If I want to to invest $100 worth of bitcoins in Ziggap for a few thousand shares of their equity, why is my government making it impossible for that to occur?

That is a very good question and even more frustrating when you look at the economic malaise in the US.  Essentially all higher level essentially ALL job creation is by small companies.  By the time companies become large (thousands of employees) they generally are not growing labor.  Now they are always hiring because labor needs change but there is no real growth in the number of people employed. 

So essentially jobs come from small companies.  
Small companies are currently being drowned in over regulation.


in the US the section 179 depreciation limits and rules have changed bigtime in the past 3 years. that is a big "fuck you" to small businesses.

big businesses can't really use section 179 since they have so many assets, etc, that it's a wash incrementally speaking.
newbie
Activity: 15
Merit: 0
March 02, 2013, 05:39:14 PM
#7
Quote
So essentially jobs come from small companies. 
Small companies are currently being drowned in over regulation.
Small companies are finding it virtually impossible to gain access to small ($100K to $1M) amount of capital.
Small companies crushed under regulation and lacking accessible source of capital tend to no expand or expand slower.


Yes this is very true...

I was forced to close my business in Texas because of the tax's and regulations, they were bleeding my dry, food stamps now pays more then trying to operate or maintain a small business.  Roll Eyes
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Tangible Cryptography LLC
March 02, 2013, 02:31:13 PM
#6
If I want to to invest $100 worth of bitcoins in Ziggap for a few thousand shares of their equity, why is my government making it impossible for that to occur?

That is a very good question and even more frustrating when you look at the economic malaise in the US.  Essentially all higher level essentially ALL job creation is by small companies.  By the time companies become large (thousands of employees) they generally are not growing labor.  Now they are always hiring because labor needs change but there is no real growth in the number of people employed. 

So essentially jobs come from small companies.  
Small companies are currently being drowned in over regulation.
Small companies are finding it virtually impossible to gain access to small ($100K to $1M) amount of capital.
Small companies crushed under regulation and lacking accessible source of capital tend to no expand or expand slower.

Currently there is massive unemployment in the US.   Coincidence?

The SEC has indicated the rules for crowdfunding will not be completed this year and may not even be completed next year.  2015 or 2016 is starting to look like a realistic timeline.  One may ask how is this possible?  The law Congress passed placed no deadline on the SEC.  There is an option for small US companies to raise capital from "non accredited investors" but ironically it excludes US investors ... "Reg S".  
legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 1010
March 02, 2013, 02:22:09 PM
#5
do you mean they are or aren't popular with companies looking to raise equity or people looking to by equity?

Well, they aren't all that popular with either investors or asset issuers.  

And I understand why though -- the GLBSE experience and its unorderly shutdown was a prime example.

Many investors who had not been used to performing due diligence first-hand themselves were led to financial slaughter in many instances.  On the asset issuer side, selling shares in a company to the public is yet today something illegal here in the U.S. unless done in a way that is compliant with securities regulations (again, there are changes coming for crowdfunding but they are not in effect today, and will be of limited use when they do).  

So you have the differing approaches being taken in this post-GLBSE environment to try to figure out a method that meets to goal of bringing capital from those wiling to invest and delivering that capital to those who have legitimate ideas or existing businesses that can convert that capital into profits.  

Even some risky GLBSE assets did have some successes.  ASICMINER, for instance, raised about $100K USD worth of bitcoins on GLBSE to fund their ASIC venture.   Days ago they started earning revenues of about $30K USD worth of bitcoins PER DAY and are just now paying dividends at a level that simply doesn't exist elsewhere.

The presumed rulemaking to come from the SEC on equity crowdfunding would never let an ASICMINER get its start here.  The amount being raised was probably too small to justify the expense of the preparatory steps to reach an IPO, for instance.  The shares could only be offered in the U.S. to U.S. investors (ASICMINER has shareholders around the world) and there's no way the investors could acquire equity and remain anonymous -- the State will never endorse a system in which profits cannot be tracked and taxed.

At the same time, if an issuer that does go through the SEC's hoops and then tries to disappear in the middle of the night, investors would have more than a name and a (photoshopped ?) copy of a Chinese ID card (which, presumably was the extent of the burden GLBSE required of ASICMINER before they got the green light to raise that $100K worth of bitcoins).


Entrepreneurs and financial supporters are free to form a voluntary association, but when the agreement is that profits are to be shared with those who have contributed that's when the State gets in the middle and makes proceeding so expensive that what you end up with is progress impeded.

Many entrepreneurs with great ideas remain without access to capital because they don't have wealthy friends or family, or aren't willing to cede the levels of equity traditional seed / angel / VC investment approaches require, or simply because the idea is not yet fleshed out enough to be of interest to the particular set of investors it is being presented to.

But the Internet and equity crowdfunding combined may cause an investor in Clovis, CA who is really interested in the same innovation as the maker in Cleveland, OH to extend $100 towards her goal of the $15K needed for equipment to be able to produce a working prototype.   But different from a Kickstarter or other donation-based crowdfunding approach, with equity crowdfunding the investor from Clovis gets a proportional share of the profit if that venture pans out -- and voting rights and whatever else the company charter has specified.

That would be a great story, right?   Well, we simply won't hear of it happening because of laws the SEC has "to protect investors".  That $15K raised won't even cover the legal costs for raising capital through crowdfunding.  So now this Cleveland wonder needs to raise $35K,  $20K for the legal and administrative stuff and $15K for the equipment.  And by the time that the funds are raised and the $15K worth of equipment eventually arrives the Cleveland maker's competitors might have already emerged.  And even raising the $35K of capital now cannot be assumed as being a given since instead of needing to raise just $15K, the additional $20K may have caused the whole venture to become deemed now as something unattractive to investors.

Now if the Cleveland's maker were to list her venture on BitFunder today, she may have her $15K worth of coins tomorrow.  That's an efficient system for raising capital.

We are letting innovation today be stifled from these rules.   BitFunder and potentially others provide a glimpse into what is possible when those rules are bypassed.   But those rules being in place are harmful yet.  Ziggap, a recently listed asset on BitFunder, claims to not be offering equity in the company, only a share of the company's profits.   That is weasel language composed specifically to get the benefits of raising capital (i.e., the transfer of bitcoins from the investor to the asset issuer) yet try to avoid getting in trouble for raising capital.  

What a crock.  

If I want to to invest $100 worth of bitcoins in Ziggap in exchange for a few thousand shares of their equity, why is my government making it impossible for this private contract between the two of us to be made?

[Edited for clarification and readability]
[Update: Oh, and that $20K needed for my example is an expense that would be incurred prior to the raising of capital, so the Cleveland maker would first need to borrow $20K in order to eventually raise the $15K for the equipment.    Obviously, that's senseless.  Also, that number for legal and admin for the process is likely to be much higher than $20K to boot.]
hero member
Activity: 906
Merit: 1034
BTC: the beginning of stake-based public resources
March 02, 2013, 07:15:22 AM
#4
Interesting, SEC – I take it you are in the USA?

BitFunder looks like a fascinating link I'll check that out thanks.

"That's why BitFunder and the other equity crowdfunding (asset markets) are so underappreciated." – so do you mean they are or aren't popular with companies looking to raise equity or people looking to by equity?
legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 1010
March 02, 2013, 06:11:09 AM
#3
I want to buy shares in MTGOX. Has there been any talk of a public offering or any way that anyone knows of to do this?

Mt. Gox is owned by Tibanne of Japan, a privately held company.

Coiinlab has various investors and also is privately held.

Neither ever offered shares to you and I.   They can't (at least not to me).   See, I'm not an accredited investor.  In this country [Edited: (U.S.)] it is illegal for a company to offer equity to me unless I have a close preexisting relationship (e.g., family member, close friend, maybe former coworker in the industry, etc.) or I am an accredited investor (i.e., already wealthy which presumes I either can afford to lose money in investments or that I am smart enough to avoid taking on excessive risk).

The SEC is supposedly working on the rules to allow equity crowdfunding since the JOBS act was passed nearly a year ago, but that has stalled due to complications and leadership changes at the agency.  But even when they are done, it isn't likely for the next Mt. Gox type of entity to hold out the hat to raise funds from us.  Even if the new rules will allow it, those rules will still cause it to be too expensive to go after and manage all of us as small investors.

That's why BitFunder and the other equity crowdfunding (asset markets) are so underappreciated.   It enables the decentralization of the methods for raising capital.
vip
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1043
👻
March 02, 2013, 05:57:20 AM
#2
Nope.
hero member
Activity: 906
Merit: 1034
BTC: the beginning of stake-based public resources
March 02, 2013, 05:52:30 AM
#1
I want to buy shares in MTGOX. Has there been any talk of a public offering or any way that anyone knows of to do this?
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