Multible spending the same Bitcoins using Ripple

acoindr

legendary

Activity: 1050

Merit: 1002

Quote from: MykelSilver on May 14, 2013, 02:15:51 PM

Quote from: acoindr on May 14, 2013, 02:08:16 PM

The same would apply to bitcoins. Once you have an economy that primarily transacts bitcoins you won't be able to drive down the purchasing power of bitcoins with external systems, no matter what they do, because there are only a certain quantity of actual bitcoins each participant can have.

Bitcoins are designed to can hold a fracture to at least eight digits: The Satoshi. (the "satoshi" is the smallest denomination currently possible
0.000 000 01 BTC = 1 satoshi (pronounced sa-toh-shee. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/FAQ) So my thought is that this fact a bit of help.

You can break gold down into fractions and microscopic amounts too. That doesn't change my point. There are only a limited number of whole bitcoins you can have (or a limited number of satoshis if you prefer).

MykelSilver

full member

Activity: 237

Merit: 100

Quote from: acoindr on May 14, 2013, 02:08:16 PM

The same would apply to bitcoins. Once you have an economy that primarily transacts bitcoins you won't be able to drive down the purchasing power of bitcoins with external systems, no matter what they do, because there are only a certain quantity of actual bitcoins each participant can have.

Bitcoins are designed to can hold a fracture to at least eight digits: The Satoshi. (the "satoshi" is the smallest denomination currently possible
0.000 000 01 BTC = 1 satoshi (pronounced sa-toh-shee. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/FAQ) So my thought is that this fact a bit of help.

dree12

legendary

Activity: 1246

Merit: 1077

The gold thing is probably a conspiracy. Physical gold is traded for just as much as paper gold, and little more.

acoindr

legendary

Activity: 1050

Merit: 1002

Quote from: MykelSilver on May 06, 2013, 02:51:11 PM

Well,
Same is told about gold and silver. I believe without using dirty tricks the price would be much higher. And NOT on a limited extend. Every form of manipulation, even for a short period, should be banned.
EDIT Price of gold is manipulated since Nixon closed the gold window. That was not yesterday :-). So they could bring down prices for a long, long time...... Way too long

You have a good point here, but here is the key thing you're missing:

"the price would be much higher"

Right there you're measuring against something else, presumably dollars. In a gold only economy where people exchanged only physical gold then 1 oz of gold would get you a certain amount of goods/services and that wouldn't be affected by external systems, at least not in a way that drove down the purchasing power of the gold, because there would only be a certain quantity of physical gold each participant had.

The same would apply to bitcoins. Once you have an economy that largely transacts bitcoins you won't be able to drive down the purchasing power of bitcoins with external systems, no matter what they do, because there are only a certain quantity of actual bitcoins each participant can have.

rebuilder

legendary

Activity: 1615

Merit: 1000

Quote from: MykelSilver on May 06, 2013, 02:51:11 PM

Every form of manipulation, even for a short period, should be banned.

How?

hashman

legendary

Activity: 1264

Merit: 1008

Quote from: MykelSilver on May 06, 2013, 02:51:11 PM

Every form of manipulation, even for a short period, should be banned.

And how are you going to define manipulation? Suppose I want to sell something quickly. That's going to manipulate the price down, right?
All transactions are manipulation. Putting somebody in charge to do some "banning" is going to have a very predictable effect.

MykelSilver

full member

Activity: 237

Merit: 100

Quote from: Peter Lambert on May 06, 2013, 02:45:21 PM

Quote from: MykelSilver on May 06, 2013, 02:38:59 PM

Quote from: Peter Lambert on May 06, 2013, 02:32:52 PM

Quote from: MykelSilver on May 06, 2013, 02:13:53 PM

Quote from: Peter Lambert on May 06, 2013, 02:09:52 PM

It is quite possible, and it will not cause any problems until people try to withdraw more bitcoins than they have on reserve. Then they would have to either purchase more bitcoins or go bankrupt, same as any other bank.

Thanks for answer. As a bitcoin investor i had hoped this was not possible with bitcoins.

What do you mean by "bitcoin investor"? If you invested in bitcoins, and they are sitting in your wallet, then nobody else can spend them, so there is no fractional reserve going on.

If, however, you are investing using bitcoins, then whoever you are lending them to will be out spending the bitcoins on whatever it is they do to make money, so that is fractional reserve banking, the reserve is whatever percent they hold just in case you want to make a withdrawal.

Its not about my bitcoins. They are stored for a long time in my (paper) wallet so nobody is spending THOSE coins. Its about the "other" bitcoins. When more ppl using Ripple to store their bitcoins then negative price manipulation of the price of bitcoin is possible.

Well, GatewayX could sell all the bitcoins which the Ripple users have deposited with them, and that would temporarily drive the price down. But if all the Ripple users came and wanted to withdraw their bitcoins, then GatewayX would have to go to the market and buy up that many bitcoins, which would return the price of bitcoins back to where it started. So, yes, manipulation is possible, but only to a limited extent.

Well,
Same is told about gold and silver. I believe without using dirty tricks the price would be much higher. And NOT on a limited extend. Every form of manipulation, even for a short period, should be banned.
EDIT Price of gold is manipulated since Nixon closed the gold window. That was not yesterday :-). So they could bring down prices for a long, long time...... Way too long

Peter Lambert

hero member

Activity: 756

Merit: 500

It's all fun and games until somebody loses an eye

Quote from: MykelSilver on May 06, 2013, 02:38:59 PM

Quote from: Peter Lambert on May 06, 2013, 02:32:52 PM

Quote from: MykelSilver on May 06, 2013, 02:13:53 PM

Quote from: Peter Lambert on May 06, 2013, 02:09:52 PM

It is quite possible, and it will not cause any problems until people try to withdraw more bitcoins than they have on reserve. Then they would have to either purchase more bitcoins or go bankrupt, same as any other bank.

Thanks for answer. As a bitcoin investor i had hoped this was not possible with bitcoins.

What do you mean by "bitcoin investor"? If you invested in bitcoins, and they are sitting in your wallet, then nobody else can spend them, so there is no fractional reserve going on.

If, however, you are investing using bitcoins, then whoever you are lending them to will be out spending the bitcoins on whatever it is they do to make money, so that is fractional reserve banking, the reserve is whatever percent they hold just in case you want to make a withdrawal.

Its not about my bitcoins. They are stored for a long time in my (paper) wallet so nobody is spending THOSE coins. Its about the "other" bitcoins. When more ppl using Ripple to store their bitcoins then negative price manipulation of the price of bitcoin is possible.

Well, GatewayX could sell all the bitcoins which the Ripple users have deposited with them, and that would temporarily drive the price down. But if all the Ripple users came and wanted to withdraw their bitcoins, then GatewayX would have to go to the market and buy up that many bitcoins, which would return the price of bitcoins back to where it started. So, yes, manipulation is possible, but only to a limited extent.

MykelSilver

full member

Activity: 237

Merit: 100

Quote from: Peter Lambert on May 06, 2013, 02:32:52 PM

Quote from: MykelSilver on May 06, 2013, 02:13:53 PM

Quote from: Peter Lambert on May 06, 2013, 02:09:52 PM

It is quite possible, and it will not cause any problems until people try to withdraw more bitcoins than they have on reserve. Then they would have to either purchase more bitcoins or go bankrupt, same as any other bank.

Thanks for answer. As a bitcoin investor i had hoped this was not possible with bitcoins.

What do you mean by "bitcoin investor"? If you invested in bitcoins, and they are sitting in your wallet, then nobody else can spend them, so there is no fractional reserve going on.

If, however, you are investing using bitcoins, then whoever you are lending them to will be out spending the bitcoins on whatever it is they do to make money, so that is fractional reserve banking, the reserve is whatever percent they hold just in case you want to make a withdrawal.

Its not about my bitcoins. They are stored for a long time in my (paper) wallet so nobody is spending THOSE coins. Its about the "other" bitcoins. When more ppl using Ripple to store their bitcoins then negative price manipulation of the price of bitcoin is possible.

Peter Lambert

hero member

Activity: 756

Merit: 500

It's all fun and games until somebody loses an eye

Quote from: MykelSilver on May 06, 2013, 02:13:53 PM

Quote from: Peter Lambert on May 06, 2013, 02:09:52 PM

It is quite possible, and it will not cause any problems until people try to withdraw more bitcoins than they have on reserve. Then they would have to either purchase more bitcoins or go bankrupt, same as any other bank.

Thanks for answer. As a bitcoin investor i had hoped this was not possible with bitcoins.

What do you mean by "bitcoin investor"? If you invested in bitcoins, and they are sitting in your wallet, then nobody else can spend them, so there is no fractional reserve going on.

If, however, you are investing using bitcoins, then whoever you are lending them to will be out spending the bitcoins on whatever it is they do to make money, so that is fractional reserve banking, the reserve is whatever percent they hold just in case you want to make a withdrawal.

MykelSilver

full member

Activity: 237

Merit: 100

Quote from: Peter Lambert on May 06, 2013, 02:09:52 PM

It is quite possible, and it will not cause any problems until people try to withdraw more bitcoins than they have on reserve. Then they would have to either purchase more bitcoins or go bankrupt, same as any other bank.

Thanks for answer. As a bitcoin investor i had hoped this was not possible with bitcoins.

Peter Lambert

hero member

Activity: 756

Merit: 500

It's all fun and games until somebody loses an eye

Quote from: MykelSilver on May 06, 2013, 02:01:26 PM

I have asked this question first on the Ripple discussion form (https://ripple.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2321&p=6202#p6202 ). But I want your opinion about this matter here.

The Ripple makes it possible to store Bitcoins in a wallet.

However, the bitcoin STAYS at the gateway where it is stored.
So in theory the gateway could spend the bitcoin multible times when transfer it to multible Ripple accounts.
At this way the bitcoin price could manipulated. Just like banks lend paper gold multiple times which can be used to rig the markets of G/S up or down.

Please convince me I am wrong about this....

You are talking about "Fractional Reserve Banking".

Ask your gateway if they practice fractional reserve banking. If you do not trust their answer, you should find a different gateway.

It is quite possible, and it will not cause any problems until people try to withdraw more bitcoins than they have on reserve. Then they would have to either purchase more bitcoins or go bankrupt, same as any other bank.

MykelSilver

full member

Activity: 237

Merit: 100

I have asked this question first on the Ripple discussion form (https://ripple.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2321&p=6202#p6202 ). But I want your opinion about this matter here.

The Ripple makes it possible to store Bitcoins in a wallet.

However, the bitcoin STAYS at the gateway where it is stored.
So in theory the gateway could spend the bitcoin multible times when transfer it to multible Ripple accounts.
At this way the bitcoin price could manipulated. Just like banks lend paper gold multiple times which can be used to rig the markets of G/S up or down.

Please convince me I am wrong about this....

Topic: Multible spending the same Bitcoins using Ripple (Read 1158 times)