My System for Security/Protection of Hardware Wallets and Valuables

aoluain

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Quote from: SFR10 on September 13, 2021, 11:02:07 AM

@aoluain
Why you didn't go with the bigger version ^[LCFW30100] that could provide a bit more ^[84°C] fire protection for an hour ^{[instead of 30 minutes]}?

Don't get me wrong, I'm still not convinced that this security chest is going to be enough when "normal building fires could reach up to 1,100°C" and I just watched a video about a similar product ^{[different brand]} that after a test, the entire lock mechanism popped out and based on the last image that you've uploaded, I expect the same thing to happen since it's just connected to the plastic part and that part could easily melt in a fire.

I got this in a closing down sale, it was the only one they had. Prior to this I had
no protection from fire for anything I owned and thought 30 minutes fire protection
would be better than no protection.

I get that there may be more durable and higher rated products on the market
and TBH I have faith in this unit. If I am ever unfortunate enough to have a fire
and the box gets rightly messed up but the contents protected thats ok.

I posted this thread to encourage everyone interested to think about similar. The replies
are great, it highlights points I didnt think about.

Little Mouse

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Quote from: Zedpastin on September 13, 2021, 09:24:04 AM

Fire resistant does not mean the contents of the box are safe it means that the box they are selling is fire resistant. You could not be sure if it works for the contents unless you tried it.

I'm not keeping any paper inside the metal box. I have written the seed with metal. Everything inside the box is made of the same metal. So I assume it's safe though I haven’t checked it myself with fire Cheesy

It seems fine and safe to me according to their logic. They have ensured it will be fire resistant till certain temperature, I can't remember the exact temperature at the moment.

SFR10

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@aoluain
Why you didn't go with the bigger version ^[LCFW30100] that could provide a bit more ^[84°C] fire protection for an hour ^{[instead of 30 minutes]}?

Don't get me wrong, I'm still not convinced that this security chest is going to be enough when "normal building fires could reach up to 1,100°C" and I just watched a video about a similar product ^{[different brand]} that after a test, the entire lock mechanism popped out and based on the last image that you've uploaded, I expect the same thing to happen since it's just connected to the plastic part and that part could easily melt in a fire.

Zedpastin

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Quote from: aoluain on September 13, 2021, 01:52:15 AM

You are correct, putting a usb type storage device into a metal box wont protect it in the
event of fire but this storage chest is "insulated" the walls are very thick filled with fire
resistant material which keeps the inside of the chest cooler than the outside.

I do not think I can trust the claims of a company that is selling this as fire resistant. The metal on the outside will be fire resistant but I do not think the insulation unless it was a foot thick will protect from the heat. I guess this could be easy to test if you have a raspberry pi you can monitor the temperature through logs inside and you could use a blowtorch on the equipment and test if the temperature is a safe level for electronics or the plastic covering the hardware wallet.

Quote from: Little Mouse on September 13, 2021, 09:03:11 AM

Looks good. I have purchased cypher metal from Safepal and according to them it's normally fire resistance. I have written the seed of my hardware wallet there and have my hardware with me all the time as it's as same as a wallet, can be used with a mobile app.

Fire resistant does not mean the contents of the box are safe it means that the box they are selling is fire resistant. You could not be sure if it works for the contents unless you tried it.

Little Mouse

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Looks good. I have purchased cypher metal from Safepal and according to them it's normally fire resistance. I have written the seed of my hardware wallet there and have my hardware with me all the time as it's as same as a wallet, can be used with a mobile app.

o_e_l_e_o

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Hardware wallets are not durable and should not be treated as such. They will fail quickly at mildly deranged temperatures, susceptible to water or even excess humidity, impact, crush, they will fail over time, or even might just have a faulty component and will fail randomly at any moment. Putting it in a fireproof box is an incomplete solution to only one of these issues.

Hardware wallets are designed for easily and securely interacting with your private keys, not for durability. If you want durable long term storage, then the answer is to inscribe your seed words on some stainless steel or similar. You can also mitigate all these issues by having at least two back ups (even just simple paper back ups) in two separate physical locations.

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: Lucius on September 13, 2021, 05:23:57 AM

The only problem in this way of storage is where to place this box, because in case of burglary, the thief has everything valuable and important in one place

Unfortunately most people tend to keep all valuable belongings and papers in one place, so I don't actually see anything unusual here.

Quote from: aoluain on September 12, 2021, 01:30:00 PM

For the seed phrases of the hardware wallets I use a stamped stainless steel plate
hidden elsewhere in the house which can also withstand fire.

Oh, impressive! Then the HWs don't really have to stay in that box, right? Wink

Lucius

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The only problem in this way of storage is where to place this box, because in case of burglary, the thief has everything valuable and important in one place - they just need to take the box and then break the lock. When we connect this with fire protection, then the placement of such a box becomes even more important because experts say that the temperature in a classic home fire on average reaches about 800 degrees Celsius, but it can be several hundred degrees higher on the upper floors - so maybe ideal the place was a basement, but then we have to hope that the box will really be resistant to the larger amounts of water that will be created due to fire extinguishing.

A few years ago I read an article about the Trezor that survived the fire (but I can't find it now), but also a comment on Reddit about a man who washed it and dried it in a washing machine - he claims it continued to work after that.

Quote from: https://www.reddit.com/r/TREZOR/comments/752du5/trezor_durability/

FlyGuy74
4y
FWIW, I accidentally washed and dried a Trezor in the laundry. It was tumbling in the dryer drum at 140 degrees F for 25 minutes before I noticed.
It still works great to this day!
Durable? Indeed!

aoluain

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You are correct, putting a usb type storage device into a metal box wont protect it in the
event of fire but this storage chest is "insulated" the walls are very thick filled with fire
resistant material which keeps the inside of the chest cooler than the outside.

Zedpastin

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I have a question about the fire protection if you are storing a device in a metal box I am sure that if there was a fire the heat generated from the fire would still melt the device inside of it. Yes it might stop it from burning but electronics are prone to melting where. Hardware wallets are plastic which has a low melting point. The metal components inside might be salvageable if the plastic does not melt. I would like to see someone test this theory out because I am not convinced that a hardware wallet would survive from the heat generated.

jackg

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https://bit.ly/387FXHi lightning theory

If lockable v not lockable are different prices, I'd just go for one that isn't locked.

I'm not sure a lock provides much security these days and it might just make the box look worth stealing (and also you've got to keep hold of the keys or be able to/know someone who can pick it).

The fire and flood proofing are definitely a good idea to have though - although hardware wallets may be flood proof/salvageable.

aoluain

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on September 12, 2021, 12:12:30 PM

Quote from: aoluain on September 12, 2021, 10:49:37 AM

What do I store in it?
~
Electronics: Hardware wallets, Encrypted USB drives

Imho that box should contain the backup seed, not the actual hardware wallets; but yeah, it's up to you...
I've seen that it also protects from heat (1/2 hour at 843 degree C, not bad).

I think though that you should at least warn that the link you posted is a ref link. As it is now, I'd say that's against the forum rules.

I have changed the op to show the links.

This is not a security safe its only protection against Fire and Water, its lockable but
can be carried away to be brute forced opened later.

For the seed phrases of the hardware wallets I use a stamped stainless steel plate
hidden elsewhere in the house which can also withstand fire.

I made a post about it a while ago

Quote from: aoluain on January 30, 2021, 04:59:23 AM

That could be a bit of a bother, not being able to open the warped case,
cutting just above the threads would sort it. Fairly durable little product all the same.

I didnt realise that there were so many commercially available solutions for storing private keys.

€74 is definitely better than the €99 from the Ledger store.

I use a very DIY cost effective solution myself although its not really portable.
SS plate 4mm thick with the words punched into the surface then screwed
to a roof joist facing in.

Quote from: dkbit98 on September 12, 2021, 12:54:16 PM

I have nothing against this kind of protection but it's not a good idea putting all eggs in one basket like you did, putting all your valuables like gold and money with your documents, USB drives and crypto backups.
That means you have a single point of failure for losing everything you own if MasterLock is missing or lost, and I am not impressed with that fireproof temperature resistance of 843 degree Celsius.
Regular cooper have higher melting point of 1084 C, Stainless Steel is around 1510 C and even brass can stand more fire than MasterLock.
Being waterproof is good to have and it's not expensive at all, but I see some complains on amazon with plastic parts being broken, and I would never keep everything valuable in one place/product.

Agree 100%

As above this is not a security safe, it is really only for documents and electronics
so valuables as in jewellery, Gold, Silver, gems etc should have a dedicated theft proof safe.

This is something I dont have and would need to research seperately.

Putting everything else you cannot afford to lose in a fire or flood into something which
will protect them is far better than leaving them in a drawer etc.

dkbit98

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I have nothing against this kind of protection but it's not a good idea putting all eggs in one basket like you did, putting all your valuables like gold and money with your documents, USB drives and crypto backups.
That means you have a single point of failure for losing everything you own if MasterLock is missing or lost, and I am not impressed with that fireproof temperature resistance of 843 degree Celsius.
Regular cooper have higher melting point of 1084 C, Stainless Steel is around 1510 C and even brass can stand more fire than MasterLock.
Being waterproof is good to have and it's not expensive at all, but I see some complains on amazon with plastic parts being broken, and I would never keep everything valuable in one place/product.

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: aoluain on September 12, 2021, 10:49:37 AM

What do I store in it?
~
Electronics: Hardware wallets, Encrypted USB drives

Imho that box should contain the backup seed, not the actual hardware wallets; but yeah, it's up to you...
I've seen that it also protects from heat (1/2 hour at 843 degree C, not bad).

I think though that you should at least warn that the link you posted is a ref link. As it is now, I'd say that's against the forum rules.

aoluain

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I thought I would post some details of my system for storing, securing and protecting
my valuables primarily in the event of fire.

I use a product from Master Lock > https://www.masterlock.eu its a Fire and Flood security chest,
they have a number of products in the range at very reasonable prices, some priced
less than a Ledger or Trezor hardware wallet. This gives another layer of protection
from fire and flood damage.

For example here is a link to one on Amazon.co.uk > https://www.amazon.co.uk/Master-Lock-LCHW20101-LCHW20101-Electronics/dp/B0158OFGPQ/ref=asc_df_B0158OFGPQ/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=223170773229&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4529055444014000040&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=20480&hvtargid=pla-423058341115&psc=1&th=1&psc=1

For security against theft it is not suitable as they are portable, heavy but portable.
The model I use is the https://www.masterlock.eu/home-personal/product/LCHW20101

What do I store in it?

Well up to 7.8 Litres in volume of items such as:
Important Documents: Insurance documents, Birth certificates, Copies of Drivers License, Bank account details
Electronics: Hardware wallets, Encrypted USB drives
Edit - ~~Valuables: Jewellery, Gold, Silver, Cash, Etc.~~

More of Master Lock's products > https://www.masterlock.eu/home-personal/product-search/storage-security/Fire+%26+Water+Resistant+Security+Chests?environment=Indoors&keyed=Keyed

Topic: My System for Security/Protection of Hardware Wallets and Valuables (Read 223 times)