Someone please tell BCTLuke that it is "shoddy", not "shotty"....that one drives me crazy!
Thanks for looking!
Topic: My Visit To Butterfly Labs Today! (Read 7967 times)
Basically you've been trolled, but...
Disclaimer: I am not a BFL customer, and I too have seen the office in person. It's exactly like the op described.
But I'm not as pessimistic as he is... I think they'll be shipping once they figure out how to tool their assembly line properly.
But I'm not as pessimistic as he is... I think they'll be shipping once they figure out how to tool their assembly line properly.
...
They've got to the point where they have managed to acquire a few cast-off experimental chips and a PCB which works for a while before flaming out. And possibly some mock software which makes things look like they are working.
Wow, this is a pretty pessimistic view. Do you just have no idea whatsoever about how printing circuitboards works?They've got to the point where they have managed to acquire a few cast-off experimental chips and a PCB which works for a while before flaming out. And possibly some mock software which makes things look like they are working.
I'm not very knowledgeable about many of the aspect to be fair, but...
Several different press outlets have not only got their hands on these things, and gotten bitcoins in their accounts from using them... But they actually have torn them down to see what makes them tick... The unanimous consensus is that they are indeed mining as advertised. This cannot really be argued anymore.
Think of it this way... This is a Jalapeno's motherboard:
We know this is legit because multiple bloggers who existed long before BFL own these now, tore them apart, and even tell us what the different chips on the board do:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciwfCqP8AiU
...little or nothing I saw in that vid had much value. Couple of guys scratching their heads. One knew how to use a screwdriver. Yawn. None of the other analysis I've seen is much more rewarding.
I'll be interested when if finally comes out who did the ASIC fab and what logic technology was employed.
It also would not hurt to have a report from someone who actually hooked up to a pool and got paid out. I've not heard any such reports, but I barely pay attention.
See how the little embedded wires line up on the nanometer scale to get electricity around the silicon pathways in a useful manner? That can only be done by PRINTING... You don't just make a few shotty boards at a time like this, it is way too cost prohibitive.
When you make the printer to make these boards and the ASIC chips themselves, you are spending tons of money, likely millions of dollars, to make a printer that can spit out millions of units.
So since they exist at all, THERE WILL BE more. You can write this fact down, it's a basic law of economics. Even if they refused to make any more, they'd be forced to sell this expensive monster (likely through court-ordered bankruptcy) to some other company that would use it!
The only question now is how competent BFL staff are at running the printing press faster... So far they haven't done a good job, but sooner or later they have got to get their crap together if they want to still own that printing press.
The board actually seems like a conglomeration of earlier work. Maybe that is why it sucks more than my workstation's mainboard when it sits at idle? Frankly it's simply not that impressive of a feat, and if BFL paid millions of dollars for it, I think they got scammed.
One thing that hit me right away when I saw the pic was how the 2 pads with contain (purported) ASIC chips are different in size from the 6 which (it is speculated) would contain more such chips if they were not such hot (in the thermal sense) little bastards?
Seems like a dozen-ish of the 130nm ASICMINER chips like the one I just bought for a tiny USB device achieve about the same perf. The simplest explanation for BFL taking so long and making so many errors in the year it's taken them to get this far is that they simply have not tried very hard. They are way way out in front on taking people's money though. It's all about priorities I guess.
But they ain't shipping product!
Technically we know they've shipped a half dozen or so to press outlets.Using Occam's Razor, the best explanation for their lack of customer shipping to date is simply incompetence.
Incompetence =/= scam.
I really don't think they started out that way but now as they are up to their collective asses in alligators you may well be correct!
But they ain't shipping product!
Technically we know they've shipped a half dozen or so to press outlets.Using Occam's Razor, the best explanation for their lack of customer shipping to date is simply incompetence.
Incompetence =/= scam.
Good thing BFL won't be advertising on the forums this week since I'm outbidding them.
Disclaimer: I am not a BFL customer, and I too have seen the office in person. It's exactly like the op described.
But I'm not as pessimistic as he is... I think they'll be shipping once they figure out how to tool their assembly line properly.
Several different press outlets have not only got their hands on these things, and gotten bitcoins in their accounts from using them... But they actually have torn them down to see what makes them tick... The unanimous consensus is that they are indeed mining as advertised. This cannot really be argued anymore.
Think of it this way... This is a Jalapeno's motherboard:
We know this is legit because multiple bloggers who existed long before BFL own these now, tore them apart, and even tell us what the different chips on the board do:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciwfCqP8AiU
See how the little embedded wires line up on the nanometer scale to get electricity around the silicon pathways in a useful manner? That can only be done by PRINTING... You don't just make a few shotty boards at a time like this, it is way too cost prohibitive.
When you make the printer to make these boards and the ASIC chips themselves, you are spending tons of money, likely millions of dollars, to make a printer that can spit out millions of units.
So since they exist at all, THERE WILL BE more. You can write this fact down, it's a basic law of economics. Even if they refused to make any more, they'd be forced to sell this expensive monster (likely through court-ordered bankruptcy) to some other company that would use it!
The only question now is how competent BFL staff are at running the printing press faster... So far they haven't done a good job, but sooner or later they have got to get their crap together if they want to still own that printing press.
But I'm not as pessimistic as he is... I think they'll be shipping once they figure out how to tool their assembly line properly.
...
They've got to the point where they have managed to acquire a few cast-off experimental chips and a PCB which works for a while before flaming out. And possibly some mock software which makes things look like they are working.
Wow, this is a pretty pessimistic view. Do you just have no idea whatsoever about how printing circuitboards works?They've got to the point where they have managed to acquire a few cast-off experimental chips and a PCB which works for a while before flaming out. And possibly some mock software which makes things look like they are working.
Several different press outlets have not only got their hands on these things, and gotten bitcoins in their accounts from using them... But they actually have torn them down to see what makes them tick... The unanimous consensus is that they are indeed mining as advertised. This cannot really be argued anymore.
Think of it this way... This is a Jalapeno's motherboard:
We know this is legit because multiple bloggers who existed long before BFL own these now, tore them apart, and even tell us what the different chips on the board do:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciwfCqP8AiU
See how the little embedded wires line up on the nanometer scale to get electricity around the silicon pathways in a useful manner? That can only be done by PRINTING... You don't just make a few shotty boards at a time like this, it is way too cost prohibitive.
When you make the printer to make these boards and the ASIC chips themselves, you are spending tons of money, likely millions of dollars, to make a printer that can spit out millions of units.
So since they exist at all, THERE WILL BE more. You can write this fact down, it's a basic law of economics. Even if they refused to make any more, they'd be forced to sell this expensive monster (likely through court-ordered bankruptcy) to some other company that would use it!
The only question now is how competent BFL staff are at running the printing press faster... So far they haven't done a good job, but sooner or later they have got to get their crap together if they want to still own that printing press.
But they ain't shipping product!
It will soon be ONE YEAR since the first orders!
Tell you anything?
"Press outlets".
Yeah, right!
Disclaimer: I am not a BFL customer, and I too have seen the office in person. It's exactly like the op described.
But I'm not as pessimistic as he is... I think they'll be shipping once they figure out how to tool their assembly line properly.
Several different press outlets have not only got their hands on these things, and gotten bitcoins in their accounts from using them... But they actually have torn them down to see what makes them tick... The unanimous consensus is that they are indeed mining as advertised. This cannot really be argued anymore.
Think of it this way... This is a Jalapeno's motherboard:
We know this is legit because multiple bloggers who existed long before BFL own these now, tore them apart, and even tell us what the different chips on the board do:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciwfCqP8AiU
See how the little embedded wires line up on the nanometer scale to get electricity around the silicon pathways in a useful manner? That can only be done by PRINTING... You don't just make a few shotty boards at a time like this, it is way too cost prohibitive.
When you make the printer to make these boards and the ASIC chips themselves, you are spending tons of money, likely millions of dollars, to make a printer that can spit out millions of units.
So since they exist at all, THERE WILL BE more. You can write this fact down, it's a basic law of economics. Even if they refused to make any more, they'd be forced to sell this expensive monster (likely through court-ordered bankruptcy) to some other company that would use it!
The only question now is how competent BFL staff are at running the printing press faster... So far they haven't done a good job, but sooner or later they have got to get their crap together if they want to still own that printing press.
But I'm not as pessimistic as he is... I think they'll be shipping once they figure out how to tool their assembly line properly.
...
They've got to the point where they have managed to acquire a few cast-off experimental chips and a PCB which works for a while before flaming out. And possibly some mock software which makes things look like they are working.
Wow, this is a pretty pessimistic view. Do you just have no idea whatsoever about how printing circuitboards works?They've got to the point where they have managed to acquire a few cast-off experimental chips and a PCB which works for a while before flaming out. And possibly some mock software which makes things look like they are working.
Several different press outlets have not only got their hands on these things, and gotten bitcoins in their accounts from using them... But they actually have torn them down to see what makes them tick... The unanimous consensus is that they are indeed mining as advertised. This cannot really be argued anymore.
Think of it this way... This is a Jalapeno's motherboard:
We know this is legit because multiple bloggers who existed long before BFL own these now, tore them apart, and even tell us what the different chips on the board do:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciwfCqP8AiU
See how the little embedded wires line up on the nanometer scale to get electricity around the silicon pathways in a useful manner? That can only be done by PRINTING... You don't just make a few shotty boards at a time like this, it is way too cost prohibitive.
When you make the printer to make these boards and the ASIC chips themselves, you are spending tons of money, likely millions of dollars, to make a printer that can spit out millions of units.
So since they exist at all, THERE WILL BE more. You can write this fact down, it's a basic law of economics. Even if they refused to make any more, they'd be forced to sell this expensive monster (likely through court-ordered bankruptcy) to some other company that would use it!
The only question now is how competent BFL staff are at running the printing press faster... So far they haven't done a good job, but sooner or later they have got to get their crap together if they want to still own that printing press.
....
In short, I am in discussion with my two partners concerning the plans for our orders but we most certainly will not be placing future orders with BFL.
In short, I am in discussion with my two partners concerning the plans for our orders but we most certainly will not be placing future orders with BFL.
That's the most convincing post I read that makes me think they won't ship
So, what do we make of this news?
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/05/weve-got-a-butterfly-labs-bitcoin-miner-and-its-pretty-darn-fast/
This is the result of a "promo item"; an item sent to a reviewer in order to promote BFL.
The guy is NOT a paid customer.
...
Concise however does not necessarily mean brief so get ready for a long reply!
...
Concise however does not necessarily mean brief so get ready for a long reply!
...
Here's my current favored hypothesis for anyone who is interested.
BFL was put together in the first place to market a surplus batch of obsolete but high quality FPGA's. They accomplished this, although with plenty of delays and mis-estimates. But most people only remember that they had something which was not a complete sham.
As ideas about ASIC started to become more solid, someone got the bright idea that BFL were well situated for a long-con. They started this scam and it worked better than anyone imagined. When bASIC horned in on the game it took a little wind out of their sails, but not a lot. They probably bought off Tom. I doubt that they 'made him an offer he could not refuse' or anything so dramatic, though they clearly live in an action/adventure fantasy land and encourage their so-called 'customers' to do the same. (I bet BFL was shocked with it turned out that Avalon was real.)
Eventually BFL had so much money from their scam, and the community had so much confidence in the theoretical possibility of ASIC (complements of the success of real companies in Asia) that they started to buy props (e.g., office space, broken production equipment, etc) and produce even more marketing material.
They also got agreement to conspire with semi-legit members of the community to 'tour' the facilities and produce reports which were good enough to keep the mouth-breathing pre-purchase victims hopeful and not cancelling orders, but nebulous enough to provide the co-conspirator with an out.
This worked even better and they got so fricken much money so they decided to actually try so produce something. But they had zero to work with having never intended to actually deliver anything so they've been madly scrambling to try to buy some technology off someone who would sell it to them. They've got to the point where they have managed to acquire a few cast-off experimental chips and a PCB which works for a while before flaming out. And possibly some mock software which makes things look like they are working.
You may well be correct.
It is known that BFL has taken in AT LEAST $4,000,000 (FOUR MILLION USD!) through "pre-orders", "pre-sales" or whatevertheHell you want to call them but the REAL amount is much, much more!
I suspect the true amount may push $7,000,000 (SEVEN MILLION USD!).
You know, I am saddened because I was in the begininng a supporter of BFL; my partners and myself having placed not only virtual but financial trust with them. My Buddy ordered with our money and I will not state which BFL customer he is but he and the other partner are indeed holding me financially responsible for the failure of BFL to deliver in a timely manner.
That is OK with me; I accepted that responsibility from the start as I am athe guy who talked it up with them.
I can deal with that and I can and will make them their money back in Aces, Kings, Queens and Diamonds!
If we do not get our money back from them, I will go after them and to appropriate a line from a movie, "You tell'em I coming after them and Hell is coming with me!"
I wish things were otherwise but reality is reality and often reality sucks but that is the way it is.
Thank your for reading!
I know but I wasn't draggin' no line! I was trying to toss the hook directly into the fish's mouth!
LOL!
I'd call this spear-fishing. And note with pleasure that you got them right in the eye
Why, thank you!
That was indeed my intent from the start!
It is past time that BFL be called to task!
...
Concise however does not necessarily mean brief so get ready for a long reply!
...
Concise however does not necessarily mean brief so get ready for a long reply!
...
Here's my current favored hypothesis for anyone who is interested.
BFL was put together in the first place to market a surplus batch of obsolete but high quality FPGA's. They accomplished this, although with plenty of delays and mis-estimates. But most people only remember that they had something which was not a complete sham.
As ideas about ASIC started to become more solid, someone got the bright idea that BFL were well situated for a long-con. They started this scam and it worked better than anyone imagined. When bASIC horned in on the game it took a little wind out of their sails, but not a lot. They probably bought off Tom. I doubt that they 'made him an offer he could not refuse' or anything so dramatic, though they clearly live in an action/adventure fantasy land and encourage their so-called 'customers' to do the same. (I bet BFL was shocked with it turned out that Avalon was real.)
Eventually BFL had so much money from their scam, and the community had so much confidence in the theoretical possibility of ASIC (complements of the success of real companies in Asia) that they started to buy props (e.g., office space, broken production equipment, etc) and produce even more marketing material.
They also got agreement to conspire with semi-legit members of the community to 'tour' the facilities and produce reports which were good enough to keep the mouth-breathing pre-purchase victims hopeful and not cancelling orders, but nebulous enough to provide the co-conspirator with an out.
This worked even better and they got so fricken much money so they decided to actually try so produce something. But they had zero to work with having never intended to actually deliver anything so they've been madly scrambling to try to buy some technology off someone who would sell it to them. They've got to the point where they have managed to acquire a few cast-off experimental chips and a PCB which works for a while before flaming out. And possibly some mock software which makes things look like they are working.
....
In short, I am in discussion with my two partners concerning the plans for our orders but we most certainly will not be placing future orders with BFL.
In short, I am in discussion with my two partners concerning the plans for our orders but we most certainly will not be placing future orders with BFL.
That's the most convincing post I read that makes me think they won't ship
So, what do we make of this news?
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/05/weve-got-a-butterfly-labs-bitcoin-miner-and-its-pretty-darn-fast/
I know but I wasn't draggin' no line! I was trying to toss the hook directly into the fish's mouth!
LOL!
I'd call this spear-fishing. And note with pleasure that you got them right in the eye
Man, your effort is appreciated, but did you really need to go there? For what?
We all know they are not shipping anytime soon. Jalapeños ordered the very first days will arrive at the end of this year, at best. Singles and Minis ordered at the very beginning may arrive next year. Mini rigs won't arrive at all, they will not exist.
This the reality, and a visit to their facilities is not going to change it.
We all know they are not shipping anytime soon. Jalapeños ordered the very first days will arrive at the end of this year, at best. Singles and Minis ordered at the very beginning may arrive next year. Mini rigs won't arrive at all, they will not exist.
This the reality, and a visit to their facilities is not going to change it.
OK, I am going to answer your questions and reply to your comments in as reasonable, rational and concise manner as possible and bear in mind that this post does indeed contain my considered opinions on the debacle that is BFL.
Concise however does not necessarily mean brief so get ready for a long reply!
Why should I not go to BFL?
They have a location, a business licence and a front door!
I find that often so-called "internet-based" companies actually count on customers not coming to their pysical location, especially in times of cirsis and confusion. When someone does come, it generally shakes them up whether or not they admit to it, so sometimes showing up unexpectedly will yield diffferent information than the company would give out in an email or phone call. This however was not the case with BFL.
Based on my personal experience in consumer protection, albeit many years back, had a so-called "real world" company engaged in the kind of business tactics currenttly exercised by BFL, it would have been taken to task long ago.
I suspect waht has heppened with BFL is that it has used its startup money as well as the proceeds from "pre-orders" in R&D and obtaining material for the initial production runs. I also suspect and this suspicion is to a certain extent verified by BFL in its own updates that the stuff they bought and assembled simply didn't work and they are now left with large piles of high grade computer scrap.
The consequence of this is that all the equipment has been re-designed or is in the process of redesign, there is no completed working equipment and therefore nothing to ship and BFL really has no idea when or for that matter, if anything will ever be shipped but they will not tell you that! The just keep stalling on shipping dates hoping against hope to be able to get it together before the walls come crashing in. I also suspect that BFL is now relying on what if anyatahing is left from startup, pre-order funds and whatever comes in from new pre-orders to continue to conduct R&D and purchase the bits to assemble a finished product in time to avoid a meltdown.
I think BFL is more of less (Mostly more!) on the idea that pre-order customers are essentially held hostage against the ideas that requesting refunds or initiating chargebacks will bring the house down and customer's money will be lost and that no one else out there can make working ASIC equipment available in a timely manner.
I have good reason to beleive that there are at least two companies which are very close to marketing fully functioning ASIC devices and much sooner than BFL's predictions of the availability of its own product. I have been in close contact with those companies but will not name them because I do no want to appear to be shilling for them. If and when such equipment becomes readily avialable from either of them, I will let you know as soon as I have reliable information.
In short, I am in discussion with my two partners concerning the plans for our orders but we most certainly will not be placing future orders with BFL.
That's the most convincing post I read that makes me think they won't ship
wasn't being facetious in my OP. I wanted to clarify that I really do appreciate you taking the time to try and get some solid answers for us. Sadly, they played their hand close to the chest and you weren't able to trick them into giving up any really vital information.
Thank you sincerely for trying however.
Thank you sincerely for trying however.
Hey, thanks!
I sure did try and we are good!
wasn't being facetious in my OP. I wanted to clarify that I really do appreciate you taking the time to try and get some solid answers for us. Sadly, they played their hand close to the chest and you weren't able to trick them into giving up any really vital information.
Thank you sincerely for trying however.
Thank you sincerely for trying however.
So basically you went there to troll them in real life? Lol.
I wasn't trolling, I was fishing to see what I could catch!
That is kinda what trolling means...
Hint - trolling is not coined from a kind of monsters, but from commercial fishing gear.
I know but I wasn't draggin' no line! I was trying to toss the hook directly into the fish's mouth!
LOL!
Hopefully, you at least caught some decent BBQ while you were in town!
Hey, man, I LIVE in KC, less than 4 miles from one of the best!
Wyandotte Barbeque!
There are others witin short driving distance as well!
I ma abut 10 miles from Oklahoma Joe's, 8 frm Arthr Bryant's; the list goes on! It's a wonder I don't weigh like 300 lbs!
So basically you went there to troll them in real life? Lol.
I wasn't trolling, I was fishing to see what I could catch!
That is kinda what trolling means...
Hint - trolling is not coined from a kind of monsters, but from commercial fishing gear.
Hopefully, you at least caught some decent BBQ while you were in town!
So basically you went there to troll them in real life? Lol.
I wasn't trolling, I was fishing to see what I could catch!
So basically you went there to troll them in real life? Lol.
Not that I like the outcome but thanks for the impartial review nonetheless.
I tried to be as impartial as possible and do the "Dragnet" "Just the facts, Ma'am!" thing!
Glad to know that I succeeded!
Why are you insistent on BFL giving out ship dates? They have done that many times in the past and missed every date. What difference would it make if they gave you a new date? BFL has obvious problems, but I fail to see how insisting on a ship will help anyone.
I don't think it's about the date per se. I think it was about the way they handled the question. I learn as much from that, if not more.
You got the point for sure!
BFL is handling things with delay and obfuscation!
Man, your effort is appreciated, but did you really need to go there? For what?
We all know they are not shipping anytime soon. Jalapeños ordered the very first days will arrive at the end of this year, at best. Singles and Minis ordered at the very beginning may arrive next year. Mini rigs won't arrive at all, they will not exist.
This the reality, and a visit to their facilities is not going to change it.
We all know they are not shipping anytime soon. Jalapeños ordered the very first days will arrive at the end of this year, at best. Singles and Minis ordered at the very beginning may arrive next year. Mini rigs won't arrive at all, they will not exist.
This the reality, and a visit to their facilities is not going to change it.
OK, I am going to answer your questions and reply to your comments in as reasonable, rational and concise manner as possible and bear in mind that this post does indeed contain my considered opinions on the debacle that is BFL.
Concise however does not necessarily mean brief so get ready for a long reply!
Why should I not go to BFL?
They have a location, a business licence and a front door!
I find that often so-called "internet-based" companies actually count on customers not coming to their pysical location, especially in times of cirsis and confusion. When someone does come, it generally shakes them up whether or not they admit to it, so sometimes showing up unexpectedly will yield diffferent information than the company would give out in an email or phone call. This however was not the case with BFL.
Based on my personal experience in consumer protection, albeit many years back, had a so-called "real world" company engaged in the kind of business tactics currenttly exercised by BFL, it would have been taken to task long ago.
I suspect waht has heppened with BFL is that it has used its startup money as well as the proceeds from "pre-orders" in R&D and obtaining material for the initial production runs. I also suspect and this suspicion is to a certain extent verified by BFL in its own updates that the stuff they bought and assembled simply didn't work and they are now left with large piles of high grade computer scrap.
The consequence of this is that all the equipment has been re-designed or is in the process of redesign, there is no completed working equipment and therefore nothing to ship and BFL really has no idea when or for that matter, if anything will ever be shipped but they will not tell you that! The just keep stalling on shipping dates hoping against hope to be able to get it together before the walls come crashing in. I also suspect that BFL is now relying on what if anyatahing is left from startup, pre-order funds and whatever comes in from new pre-orders to continue to conduct R&D and purchase the bits to assemble a finished product in time to avoid a meltdown.
I think BFL is more of less (Mostly more!) on the idea that pre-order customers are essentially held hostage against the ideas that requesting refunds or initiating chargebacks will bring the house down and customer's money will be lost and that no one else out there can make working ASIC equipment available in a timely manner.
I have good reason to beleive that there are at least two companies which are very close to marketing fully functioning ASIC devices and much sooner than BFL's predictions of the availability of its own product. I have been in close contact with those companies but will not name them because I do no want to appear to be shilling for them. If and when such equipment becomes readily avialable from either of them, I will let you know as soon as I have reliable information.
In short, I am in discussion with my two partners concerning the plans for our orders but we most certainly will not be placing future orders with BFL.
Why are you insistent on BFL giving out ship dates? They have done that many times in the past and missed every date. What difference would it make if they gave you a new date? BFL has obvious problems, but I fail to see how insisting on a ship will help anyone.
I don't think it's about the date per se. I think it was about the way they handled the question. I learn as much from that, if not more.
Glad to know that is not the place to invest my 25k lol
BFL has obvious problems, but I fail to see how insisting on a ship will help anyone.
I don't. I always wanted a ship.
I'm on a boat, I'm on a boat
Everybody look at me cause I'm sailing on a boat.
Why are you insistent on BFL giving out ship dates? They have done that many times in the past and missed every date. What difference would it make if they gave you a new date? BFL has obvious problems, but I fail to see how insisting on a ship will help anyone.
Not that I like the outcome but thanks for the impartial review nonetheless.
You sure he wasn't fiddling with the knife due to the extremely large amount of very pissed off people whom they owe money and "working products" to? Cannot say I haven't been having a reoccurring dream about storming the place with my military buddies and coming out with 3 jalapenos only to find them filled with Styrofoam. Grenades get tossed inside and I wake up screaming VENGEANCE IS MINE F!@#%&s!!!! Though in hindsight probably not the best idea, but a man can dream. I would happily pay money to anyone who bitch slaps Josh at the next Bitcoin or tech conference they have the balls to show their faces at.
love,
detro
love,
detro
Man, your effort is appreciated, but did you really need to go there? For what?
We all know they are not shipping anytime soon. Jalapeños ordered the very first days will arrive at the end of this year, at best. Singles and Minis ordered at the very beginning may arrive next year. Mini rigs won't arrive at all, they will not exist.
This the reality, and a visit to their facilities is not going to change it.
We all know they are not shipping anytime soon. Jalapeños ordered the very first days will arrive at the end of this year, at best. Singles and Minis ordered at the very beginning may arrive next year. Mini rigs won't arrive at all, they will not exist.
This the reality, and a visit to their facilities is not going to change it.
Bru, you and I have figured that out. You have an early pre-order I guess so you're holding on to it, and quite right too. Some of us late-comers didn't know the score and took what BFL said on trust and got burned.
All the OP did was dig up some information that helped him make a decision, and he was good enough to share it with anyone else who's interested in ASICs and is considering BFL. I think if BFL continue to be opaque about their progress they should expect more visits from people like LostDutchman seeking answers.
BTW, I'm not hating on you. Even though I cancelled I do hope you and the other customers who choose to wait it out get your ASICs in time to make some profits; Bitcoin needs multiple viable hardware vendors.
I have to hold on it because I paid in BTC - now my only chance is to hope to mine back those BTC's, as a USD refund would just be a tremendous loss and a slap in my face.
Anyhow, I don't have the Stockholm syndrome. I know I've been f*cked, and that I should never have bought the units with BTC. Anyhow, at the time it felt right to spend BTC in a machine that generates BTC... Fool of me.
Man, your effort is appreciated, but did you really need to go there? For what?
We all know they are not shipping anytime soon. Jalapeños ordered the very first days will arrive at the end of this year, at best. Singles and Minis ordered at the very beginning may arrive next year. Mini rigs won't arrive at all, they will not exist.
This the reality, and a visit to their facilities is not going to change it.
We all know they are not shipping anytime soon. Jalapeños ordered the very first days will arrive at the end of this year, at best. Singles and Minis ordered at the very beginning may arrive next year. Mini rigs won't arrive at all, they will not exist.
This the reality, and a visit to their facilities is not going to change it.
Bru, you and I have figured that out. You have an early pre-order I guess so you're holding on to it, and quite right too. Some of us late-comers didn't know the score and took what BFL said on trust and got burned.
All the OP did was dig up some information that helped him make a decision, and he was good enough to share it with anyone else who's interested in ASICs and is considering BFL. I think if BFL continue to be opaque about their progress they should expect more visits from people like LostDutchman seeking answers.
BTW, I'm not hating on you. Even though I cancelled I do hope you and the other customers who choose to wait it out get your ASICs in time to make some profits; Bitcoin needs multiple viable hardware vendors.
I will not be ordering from BFL.
Man, your effort is appreciated, but did you really need to go there? For what?
We all know they are not shipping anytime soon. Jalapeños ordered the very first days will arrive at the end of this year, at best. Singles and Minis ordered at the very beginning may arrive next year. Mini rigs won't arrive at all, they will not exist.
This the reality, and a visit to their facilities is not going to change it.
We all know they are not shipping anytime soon. Jalapeños ordered the very first days will arrive at the end of this year, at best. Singles and Minis ordered at the very beginning may arrive next year. Mini rigs won't arrive at all, they will not exist.
This the reality, and a visit to their facilities is not going to change it.
One interesting thing Dave did during our conversation was to play with one of those stainless steel folding knives, which many people would have considered to be a threatening gesture but I recognized the action as a nervous tic and in no way felt threatened. I doubt he realized he was doing it.
Told you guys BFL are a Mafia front, but does anyone listen? Noooo.
Nah. Every time I go into any place of business to meet with the executives they always pull out knives, nun-chucks, garrets, guns, etc and fiddle around with them.
Suffice it to say that I will not be going back to BFL for any reason and that from this point on I will be availing myself of the protection of my CCW permit 24/7.
Would be somewhat humorous if a different customer (or prospective customer) started showing up every couple of days on their doorstep.
I did consider contacting the consumer protection division of Kansas' Attourney General's office to see if they would consider investigating them... but figured that was more work than it was worth (at least at this point).
I did consider contacting the consumer protection division of Kansas' Attourney General's office to see if they would consider investigating them... but figured that was more work than it was worth (at least at this point).
It may well be time to do just that.
One interesting thing Dave did during our conversation was to play with one of those stainless steel folding knives, which many people would have considered to be a threatening gesture but I recognized the action as a nervous tic and in no way felt threatened. I doubt he realized he was doing it.
Told you guys BFL are a Mafia front, but does anyone listen? Noooo.
Nah. Every time I go into any place of business to meet with the executives they always pull out knives, nun-chucks, garrets, guns, etc and fiddle around with them.
Yeah, but you're living in an 80s action flick. They don't do those anymore as well as they did them.
One interesting thing Dave did during our conversation was to play with one of those stainless steel folding knives, which many people would have considered to be a threatening gesture but I recognized the action as a nervous tic and in no way felt threatened. I doubt he realized he was doing it.
Told you guys BFL are a Mafia front, but does anyone listen? Noooo.
Nah. Every time I go into any place of business to meet with the executives they always pull out knives, nun-chucks, garrets, guns, etc and fiddle around with them.
One interesting thing Dave did during our conversation was to play with one of those stainless steel folding knives, which many people would have considered to be a threatening gesture but I recognized the action as a nervous tic and in no way felt threatened. I doubt he realized he was doing it.
Told you guys BFL are a Mafia front, but does anyone listen? Noooo.
I again asked Dave if he would provide me any shipping information of any kind to which he replied, "What if I give you a shipping date anad we can't meet it? Then we have more problems."
If they can't give a shipping date, then they shouldn't be taking people's money!
Thanks even just a conversation was still something
Building confirmed
Production unseen assumed but
By chance did you see any of the rigs being built
Either way thanks for visiting them
Building confirmed
Production unseen assumed but
By chance did you see any of the rigs being built
Either way thanks for visiting them
Would be somewhat humorous if a different customer (or prospective customer) started showing up every couple of days on their doorstep.
I did consider contacting the consumer protection division of Kansas' Attourney General's office to see if they would consider investigating them... but figured that was more work than it was worth (at least at this point).
I did consider contacting the consumer protection division of Kansas' Attourney General's office to see if they would consider investigating them... but figured that was more work than it was worth (at least at this point).
BFL needs to step up their PR and start delivering on their promises.
Is this for real?
You did enter in!!!Thanks for the report.
Hmmm...Their working place looks really good.(I always suspect they spend money on everything except manufacturing and shipping devices)
Yeah, nice place and I know the rental rates around there are very, very expensive!
You did enter in!!!Thanks for the report.
Hmmm...Their working place looks really good.(I always suspect they spend money on everything except manufacturing and shipping devices)
This is not going to satisfy anyone. Thanks for your effort though!
Hey, I got what I could get, it's just that there is nothing to get!
Congratulations on doing some due diligence before investing. I'm sure you'll make an informed decision.
I think turning up basically unannounced was a great idea. You got to read an employee's unrehearsed body language about how things were going. You'd think if it was all going gangbusters, even if he couldn't show you anything you'd still see the excitement in the way the guy talked about the company and how things were looking for the future. But you got something else.
Interesting!
Oh, man!
You have done a PERFECT job of putting into words!
I could not find them but you did it!
Precisely!
This is not going to satisfy anyone. Thanks for your effort though!
Hey, I got what I could get, it's just that there is nothing to get!
Congratulations on doing some due diligence before investing. I'm sure you'll make an informed decision.
I think turning up basically unannounced was a great idea. You got to read an employee's unrehearsed body language about how things were going. You'd think if it was all going gangbusters, even if he couldn't show you anything you'd still see the excitement in the way the guy talked about the company and how things were looking for the future. But you got something else.
Interesting!
Wow, awesome read and good information. I am considering myself to buy a nice rig, thanks for the help!
I'm pretty sure these guys are legit. They are more or less a start-up (where ASIC are concerned) so, ofc, there are snags and unforeseen delays. That's how start-ups work. Dude has many many real problems to deal with and thousands of units to get out, as well as being grossly behind schedule, so I can't see any of the BFL team being too interested in wasting much effort on the "customer service" that you and your measly 1/3 of a jalapeno order demand.
They might be legit but they are not professional at all, I bet they didn't even had money for raw material, they have gotten some samples made by some other company, taken screenshots etc and started their website to get money from peoples and I also think they didn't even tested chips completely (Environmental stress testing ) that's why they are getting huge delays.
BFL says; "If you don't believe we are working as hard as we can to get you your order as fast as we can and within a reasonable estimation of our performance targets, then we dont need your money".
They are actually saying "You are a fool and you need to wait for several months while we are using your money and we will return it when we will get new fools"
Could well be. I have not yet formed an opinion.
My little take on your meeting :
What else can they do?
They are probably pushing suppliers and trying to get stuff sorted as soon as they can. But everything depends on everything. Even if they have the chips, they cannot do anything without the boards and vica versa. etc. etc.
Could it be that not all in BFL is happy about all the statements about shipping? I am not to into the whole BFL-drama, but it seems to me that Yosh have been touting a lot of overoptimistic/missleading dates and information. If I was in that same company, I might be a bit annoyed at all the drama that takes time away from development.
I might look as this as him being in a defensive mode (not about the knife though
)
He's probably thinking something along the lines of:
"Right... Another dude who wants to know stuff that i cannot answer. The answers I might give are highly uncertain or business secrets, and saying anything will only raise hopes that I don't want to be raised until I have information that is pretty firm. After all we are all kinda stressed out here due to all the delays. Seems like everytime stuff are looking to get finished, something goes wrong.
Oh why don't we follow Mores Law instead of Murphys Law. Fuck - this whole project have really been more trouble that it's worth and if I had known it would be this hard to get the product ready and out the doors, I would have stayed away.
-But now I kinda have to run the line, and hopefully if that finally get the shit ready, we might be a success."
Quote
Pressing him a bit further, I told him that the natives were restless and many preparing to jump ship.
I found his reply a bit startling and more than disconcerting.
Dave was very firm in his statement that "We can't worry about that. We just have to keep doing what we are doing and move forward."
I found his reply a bit startling and more than disconcerting.
Dave was very firm in his statement that "We can't worry about that. We just have to keep doing what we are doing and move forward."
What else can they do?
They are probably pushing suppliers and trying to get stuff sorted as soon as they can. But everything depends on everything. Even if they have the chips, they cannot do anything without the boards and vica versa. etc. etc.
Quote
I again asked Dave if he would provide me any shipping information of any kind to which he replied, "What if I give you a shipping date anad we can't meet it? Then we have more problems."
Could it be that not all in BFL is happy about all the statements about shipping? I am not to into the whole BFL-drama, but it seems to me that Yosh have been touting a lot of overoptimistic/missleading dates and information. If I was in that same company, I might be a bit annoyed at all the drama that takes time away from development.
Quote
In reflection on the meeting it occurs to me that Dave's replies to me although friendly sort of were monotonic and almost stilted and that his face was very nearly rigid and frozen as though he really wasn't moving a muscle. During our meeting he stood stock still; his only real movement was playing with his little knife.
I might look as this as him being in a defensive mode (not about the knife though
)He's probably thinking something along the lines of:
"Right... Another dude who wants to know stuff that i cannot answer. The answers I might give are highly uncertain or business secrets, and saying anything will only raise hopes that I don't want to be raised until I have information that is pretty firm. After all we are all kinda stressed out here due to all the delays. Seems like everytime stuff are looking to get finished, something goes wrong.
Oh why don't we follow Mores Law instead of Murphys Law. Fuck - this whole project have really been more trouble that it's worth and if I had known it would be this hard to get the product ready and out the doors, I would have stayed away.
-But now I kinda have to run the line, and hopefully if that
I'm pretty sure these guys are legit. They are more or less a start-up (where ASIC are concerned) so, ofc, there are snags and unforeseen delays. That's how start-ups work. Dude has many many real problems to deal with and thousands of units to get out, as well as being grossly behind schedule, so I can't see any of the BFL team being too interested in wasting much effort on the "customer service" that you and your measly 1/3 of a jalapeno order demand.
They might be legit but they are not professional at all, I bet they didn't even had money for raw material, they have gotten some samples made by some other company, taken screenshots etc and started their website to get money from peoples and I also think they didn't even tested chips completely (Environmental stress testing ) that's why they are getting huge delays.
BFL says; "If you don't believe we are working as hard as we can to get you your order as fast as we can and within a reasonable estimation of our performance targets, then we dont need your money".
They are actually saying "You are a fool and you need to wait for several months while we are using your money and we will return it when we will get new fools"
LostDutchman,
I don't see why you didn't phone ahead to try and get a proper appointment, and maybe even a brief tour of the facility. A casual discussion about technical matters first would have been a better way to go, and move onto shipping questions at the end.
Seems like a wasted opportunity to get an inside look.
I don't see why you didn't phone ahead to try and get a proper appointment, and maybe even a brief tour of the facility. A casual discussion about technical matters first would have been a better way to go, and move onto shipping questions at the end.
Seems like a wasted opportunity to get an inside look.
Any tour would have been well rehearsed and possibly staged I think and I pretty much got what I was looking for.
Answers in a backwards sort of way.
LostDutchman,
I don't see why you didn't phone ahead to try and get a proper appointment, and maybe even a brief tour of the facility. A casual discussion about technical matters first would have been a better way to go, and move onto shipping questions at the end.
Seems like a wasted opportunity to get an inside look.
I don't see why you didn't phone ahead to try and get a proper appointment, and maybe even a brief tour of the facility. A casual discussion about technical matters first would have been a better way to go, and move onto shipping questions at the end.
Seems like a wasted opportunity to get an inside look.
Even if paid through Paypal via a credit card the CC could be used for a chargeback
Yeah but people should ask for refund first, if they don't give you can either call your cc company (if you paid via Creditcard which was processed by paypal) or just a simple chargeback if you paid via your paypal balance.
You can do chargeback even after 3 months, just write that you didn't received product yet, paypal ask them to provide shipping info and obviously they will fail to provide that, at end paypal will give you money back
I like the butterfly knife part. he should have been rolling a cassicus coin back and forth across his knuckles and chewing on a toothpick too though.
I'm pretty sure these guys are legit. They are more or less a start-up (where ASIC are concerned) so, ofc, there are snags and unforeseen delays. That's how start-ups work. Dude has many many real problems to deal with and thousands of units to get out, as well as being grossly behind schedule, so I can't see any of the BFL team being too interested in wasting much effort on the "customer service" that you and your measly 1/3 of a jalapeno order demand.
these kind of "exposes" of BFL only give me more confidence in them. BFL says; "If you don't believe we are working as hard as we can to get you your order as fast as we can and within a reasonable estimation of our performance targets, then we dont need your money". If they were in on some sort of "long con" they would be kissing your ass and trying to get more cash out of you.
a caveat; they should have HUGE disclaimers all over their website and forums, like gigantic welcome pages full of "we are a technology in development, and although we strive to meet our projections as much as humanly possible, they are just that; projections, and we will not be held accountable for delays in delivery and/or reasonable discrepancies in projected hashrate and power consumption." because they seem to assume everybody is aware of this and has been all along. Plus it would get rid of annoying pests who are bent on wasting valuable time better spent of getting their product up, running, and out the door.
Note; I have zero to do with BFL, I just know what it is like to run a start-up and fall behind in orders due to unforeseen circumstances. All of the sudden everyone starts to think the worst, and all you can really offer is either their money back or a plea for their patience.
I'm pretty sure these guys are legit. They are more or less a start-up (where ASIC are concerned) so, ofc, there are snags and unforeseen delays. That's how start-ups work. Dude has many many real problems to deal with and thousands of units to get out, as well as being grossly behind schedule, so I can't see any of the BFL team being too interested in wasting much effort on the "customer service" that you and your measly 1/3 of a jalapeno order demand.
these kind of "exposes" of BFL only give me more confidence in them. BFL says; "If you don't believe we are working as hard as we can to get you your order as fast as we can and within a reasonable estimation of our performance targets, then we dont need your money". If they were in on some sort of "long con" they would be kissing your ass and trying to get more cash out of you.
a caveat; they should have HUGE disclaimers all over their website and forums, like gigantic welcome pages full of "we are a technology in development, and although we strive to meet our projections as much as humanly possible, they are just that; projections, and we will not be held accountable for delays in delivery and/or reasonable discrepancies in projected hashrate and power consumption." because they seem to assume everybody is aware of this and has been all along. Plus it would get rid of annoying pests who are bent on wasting valuable time better spent of getting their product up, running, and out the door.
Note; I have zero to do with BFL, I just know what it is like to run a start-up and fall behind in orders due to unforeseen circumstances. All of the sudden everyone starts to think the worst, and all you can really offer is either their money back or a plea for their patience.
Could be!
LOL!
Haha, Well they are just making themselves look like a big scam.
They didn't have done any shipping yet, but they are still accepting new preorders. Great
They knew they won't be able to ship products on time that's why they are accepting payments by Bitcoins
and paypal (You can chargeback guys) instead of creditcard. (It is against VISA and MasterCard's regulations for a merchant to bill their cards prior to shipping. *The Fair Credit Billing Act* )
You guys should ask for refund.
You are 100% correct about billing prior to shipping.
Even if paid through Paypal via a credit card the CC could be used for a chargeback.
It makes sense to say that. He basically said the right thing considering the delays. The problem is not what he said, the problem is that they're very late now and that they cannot guarantee a time frame now.
He was fair. But the reality of things right now is that it doesn't make financial sense to buy BFL because of the massive cost of opportunity it may have.
He was fair. But the reality of things right now is that it doesn't make financial sense to buy BFL because of the massive cost of opportunity it may have.
Could be!
LOL!
Haha, Well they are just making themselves look like a big scam.
They didn't have done any shipping yet, but they are still accepting new preorders. Great
They knew they won't be able to ship products on time that's why they are accepting payments by Bitcoins
and paypal (You can chargeback guys) instead of creditcard. (It is against VISA and MasterCard's regulations for a merchant to bill their cards prior to shipping. *The Fair Credit Billing Act* )
You guys should ask for refund.
BFL = Big Frickin' Lies.
I told her that I did not but was probably expected. She asked me my name and I replied "MY BFL FORUM NAME". I was immediately ushered inside the fortress that is BFL and asked to wait in the lobby, which is really only a couple of chairs at the end of the hallway leading to the "back room" itself.
She probably thought you said "Lord Dutchmen"
Could be!
LOL!
I told her that I did not but was probably expected. She asked me my name and I replied "MY BFL FORUM NAME". I was immediately ushered inside the fortress that is BFL and asked to wait in the lobby, which is really only a couple of chairs at the end of the hallway leading to the "back room" itself.
She probably thought you said "Lord Dutchmen"
This is not going to satisfy anyone. Thanks for your effort though!
Hey, I got what I could get, it's just that there is nothing to get!
This is not going to satisfy anyone. Thanks for your effort though!
Please bear in mind that this report of my visit to Butterfly Labs is intended only to provide you with the information I gleaned from my visit there and not to be provacative in any way or to influence any decisions that you might make for yourselves regarding BFL.
I visited Butterfly Labs today at around 11:30 am. Entering the building I went through the main door to the BFL door to find it being unlocked by a very nice very tall lady who asked me if I had an appointment.
I told her that I did not but was probably expected. She asked me my name and I replied "MY BFL FORUM NAME". I was immediately ushered inside the fortress that is BFL and asked to wait in the lobby, which is really only a couple of chairs at the end of the hallway leading to the "back room" itself.
After waiting only a few moments a fellow came from the back who introduced himself as Dave.
I introduced myself by both my forum user name and my real name.
Dave told me that he had a few minutes but that soon everyone had to be in a meeting.
I told him that I had come for any updates and any any news that he would liked passed along.
He told me that Josh had posted an update on the BFL forum and that was the only news there was.
Hoping to get a little more info, I told him I hadn't read it, which of course I had but got nothing additional.
I asked him if he had any specific shipping date, to which he replied that Jalapenos were being shipped now. When asked about shipping of other devices, he would not give me any sort of idea at all, telling me that they will ship when they ship.
He then said that BFL was more open than anyone because Avalon will not even reply to emails or phone calls.
Pressing him a bit further, I told him that the natives were restless and many preparing to jump ship.
I found his reply a bit startling and more than disconcerting.
Dave was very firm in his statement that "We can't worry about that. We just have to keep doing what we are doing and move forward."
I then asked yet again if he could give me any idea of expected shipping times on other products, to which I received the same admonition: "We will ship when we ship!"
I asked him if Minirigs were going to be put back into production. He told me that there was an update on Minirigs and that they would be put back into production when the redesign was completed.
I again asked Dave if he would provide me any shipping information of any kind to which he replied, "What if I give you a shipping date anad we can't meet it? Then we have more problems."
By this time it had become clear to me that I was going to obtain no specific information of any kind so I thanked him for meeting with me but before leaving I turned and asked him if he had anything he wanted to add for me to tell the folks.
He said "No, the updates say it all."
I left the building and took a couple of pics of the front door while leaning on the top of my car.
One interesting thing Dave did during our conversation was to play with one of those stainless steel folding knives, which many people would have considered to be a threatening gesture but I recognized the action as a nervous tic and in no way felt threatened. I doubt he realized he was doing it.
So........................................................
What did I learn?
Well, a couple of things. Shipping of anything but Jalapenos isn't going to happen any time soon and that the shipping time of other products is not known and that BFL will not even speculate on it.
In reflection on the meeting it occurs to me that Dave's replies to me although friendly sort of were monotonic and almost stilted and that his face was very nearly rigid and frozen as though he really wasn't moving a muscle. During our meeting he stood stock still; his only real movement was playing with his little knife.
Now...........................................
Here is the part in which I editorialize:
I was dismayed at what I perceived to be "customer care". It was as though the unspoken statement was "We've got your money, suck it up and wait for shipping and we'll ship when we ship!"
In short, I was pretty effectively stonewalled and I think BFL missed a wonderful opportunity to significantly improve its realtionship with current and potential customers. A good report from me could have helped them a lot but I don't think this report is going to help them at all.
I have endeavored to be as "fair and balanced" in this report as I can be.
I cannot and will not tell any of you what to do in connection with your relationship with BFL but I will tell you that my two associates with whom I am partnered are giving very serious consideration to the status of their orders.
I was left with the distinct impression that there will be no shipping dates given because there is nothing to ship and BFL itself has no real idea when there will be.
As for myself, on the basis of today's interview, I will not be ordering from BFL.
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